Ok guys
Obviously you did not realise that your opinion had a counter opinion. You saw it as having a dust cover so it could be closed to play. I saw it as having a dust cover to protect from dust when not playing. Your statement was a definite one that just because it has a hinged dust cover it should be down, I was offering a counter viewpoint. Where is your problem? |
So in the spirit of being open minded I tried on my tt-71 this morning with dustcover which is hinged to the plinth both up and down on same tracks. Now bear in mind this is only on my second system which is not as resolving as the main but still. Best way I can describe it is that with cover open it sounds more dynamic and open,more air and definition. With cover down it was not bad by any means but seemed like a veil was lifted when I again opened the cover up. I cannot perform same test in main system as the cover is a big square that sits over the 401 platter and tonearm and cartridge. But I would say to my ears in my system it's clearly sounding better open on my Tt-71 which is a cover hinged to the plinth. Draw whatever conclusions you like. |
Playing records with dust cover down is like using a CD player, i hate it. I want to see the record when i'm using turntables, no dust covers, never. If a turntable comes with a dust cover i will remove it, completely. I have only one turntable with a dust cover, because the original plinth comes with a dust cover, it's my Denon DP-80, i can't even imagine using this turntable with a dust cover up or down. It's so bizarre. One of the greatest thing about turntables is that we can actually see a record spinning on the platter with a needle on it. Dust cover is for protection when user is away, but since i don't have animals i don't care, no one will touch by turntables when i'm away. And please do not tell me about dust, nobody leave vinyl on the platter longer than one side, often just for a few songs and then it's back to the sleeve on the shelf. So WTF we need dust covers for ? |
And please do not tell me about dust, nobody leave vinyl on the platter longer than one side, often just for a few songs and then it’s back to the sleeve on the shelf. So WTF we need dust covers for ?The concern, IMO, is that static charges on the record could pull dust particles that are on the platter into the groove of the side of the record that is not being played. And when the record is turned over so that the side which had been in contact with the platter is then played, sonics, tics and pops, and record wear may all be adversely affected as a result. ...nobody leave vinyl on the platter longer than one side, often just for a few songs As one who listens primarily to classical music, when I listen to a record I usually listen to both sides in their entirety. Again, though, I do not doubt that removing a dustcover is sonically beneficial with many and probably most turntables. My earlier comments pertained exclusively to the SOTAs. Regards, -- Al |
@chakster I always appreciate your enthusiasm for Technics tables and vinyl playback. I keep the transparent hinged dust cover on a KAB mod’d SL1210M5G down and have no problem seeing the record currently playing. Even with nothing on the platter, leaving the cover in place limits dust reaching the mechanicals of the turntable and should keep the mat cleaner too. FWIW - in addition to changing the stock feet to threaded spikes resting on a heavy wood platform with layered isolating materials under each corner, I also use small gel "bumpers" on the plinth where the dust cover will rest when lowered. Finally, a weight is placed on the top of the closed cover during playback. As Mapman has already said in response to the OP’s question...up or down? Try it both ways and let your own ears decide. |
Alright then Yes you can tell I am not at work this week as have time to try various experiments but I do think this one maybe useful to some. Or at minimum another point to discuss? Re static build up on the record surface while playing. So we measure static on a fairly regular basis on the films we produce during manufacturing and to this end we use various makes of fieldmeters like the one in this link. https://www.simco-ion.co.uk/our-products/static-measuring/electrostatic-fieldmeter-type-fmx-004 Well I dragged mine out and checked the charge on the record surface while just spinning with no stylus contact and then during and after the full side of an album had played. Now maybe my meter is not accurate enough to monitor very low level change ( tbh I have no idea what levels we are talking about for the "build up" on a record surface?) but I could measure NO difference in my system in my house with my meter. |
Al It's "only" 82 here today, no need for the AC yet. But that's a valid point especially if the amount we are talking of is a very small amount, and that I do not know the range of? When i conducted my test it was fairly mild in the room, low 70,s? Did not feel particularly humid but must be in relation to cooler states. |
I never even thought about it. The turntable I have now was bought 30 years ago from some guy as part of a package of equipment he was selling so his wife couldn’t get it in the divorce. The Kenwood linear-tracking TT did not have a dust cover — he didn’t know what became of it; maybe he thought it was better to not have a cover at all? I just folded a pillow case in half and draped it over the turntable when not in use. I still do it that way and now rarely play records. I have a lot of records that endured many drunken parties and suffered from rough handling and spilt beer, though I did apply a Diskwasher prior to playing them, but a lot do not sound so good even after cleaning. I think it would have been more important for me to have someone responsible to handle and maintain my records instead of having the dust cover. |
Bob, There is a best way to keep your records pristine and then there is everything else which has severe shortcomings for one reason or another. Obviously you can't spill beer on them or throw them into a corner at the end of play. Uberwaltz actually enjoys listening to noisy records. I do not. For most of us who try to keep our records pristine by not pouring beer on them etc, the main enemies are static, dust and a worn stylus. The only way to deal with static is to discharge the record while it is playing by supplying a path to ground near the source (the stylus). As for dust the only way to deal effectively with it is to keep the record discharged and the record shielded from the atmasphere (sorry Ralph, I had to do that:) buy keeping it in its sleeve and using a dust cover. Anything else is wishful thinking and I include in this category Zero Stats and record brushes. This is not IMHO. |
And you know what? I am man enough to admit Mike you are absolutely correct. I use the zerostat and so I know- it at best neutralizes charges while you're squeezing the handle. And I do mean "at best". There's times I've had a speck of dust on there and been using the z-stat and blowing and even with the z-stat streaming ions the darn thing is still stuck right to the vinyl. So yes of course smaller stuff you can't see is being pulled right into the groove. Your fO.q tape tweak recommendation was spot-on too. |
You know what I have really had it with you pair of clowns and your arrogant posturing here there and everywhere trying to insinuate that only you know anything and everyone else is sad and pathetic. Sure I clown around but no freaking way would I be caught spouting off trying to insist that my opinions were the only ones that were correct. You pair have made these forums extremely depressing and as such I'm done. Good job boys..... |
1- It is well known (and undisputed) that a stylus traversing an LP groove causes friction. That it causes a static charge is an assertion I had never before heard. 2- As soon as it became available, I started using a Zerostat in an attempt to neutralize the static charge created on the LP I had just cleaned with a Discwasher (this was in the 1970’s). I found the Zerostat to be somewhat "fiddly" to use (that pistol had to be squeezed VERY slowly, lest it would just "click"), so was very happy when the far superior Nagaoka Kilavolt No. 103 was introduced. I still own and use it, a great product. Discontinued long ago, I don’t know where one could be found. 3- The problem of creating a static charge on an LP during cleaning was just about eliminated when I got my first vacuum record cleaning machine, a Nitty Gritty. It’s even less of a problem with my VPI HW-17F, as it takes but two revolutions to completely dry the LP, leaving a clean yet static-free disc. 4- I have NEVER removed an LP---it having been vacuum cleaned just prior to playing---from my turntable and seen or felt any evidence of a static charge created by the playing of the LP. Sounds like "fake news" to me ;-) . |
Wow.. ok guys, from the sound of so many EXPERT opinions, do you think I should remove the top cover of my SACD and any/all my bluray players? From a few opinions, it sounds like if I let all my redbook CDs lie out in the open they should sound more open. Maybe that would work just as well with all my cassette tapes! And going one step further, I bet all my recorded VHS tapes should be stored in direct sunlight! I would hate to know what would happen to them all if they were to stay under optimum operational temperature for more than a few minutes, let alone for more than a decade.. |
The name is scaf, underscore doubleohseven scaf- Wow.. ok guys, from the sound of so many EXPERT opinions, do you think I should remove the top cover of my SACD and any/all my bluray players? Removing the cover from my Aronov tube integrated was an improvement. The only way to know if it will be better or worse with your players is to try it and see. From a few opinions, it sounds like if I let all my redbook CDs lie out in the open they should sound more open. Maybe that would work just as well with all my cassette tapes! And going one step further, I bet all my recorded VHS tapes should be stored in direct sunlight! I would hate to know what would happen to them all if they were to stay under optimum operational temperature for more than a few minutes, let alone for more than a decade.. Way to ruin an otherwise good question. |
Dust cover on or down when NOT playing, up or off during playback. This is what I was taught by the "old-timers" when I was young. The dustcover can exaggerate or amplify microphonics. Turn your system on. select the phono input (do not actually play the record). Leave the tonearm cued in the "up" position. put the dustcover on or down. Gently tap on the dustcover and plinth. Repeat the tapping with the dustcover "up" or off. With most tables and cartridges you should hear a significant difference. |
I've seen low mass arms so attracted by static from the dustcover that they are lifted right off the record! Stands to reason that less static can also attract the arm, even if not enough for full lift-off. So I NEVER play with the cover down. Of course, I've has a Well Tempered TT/TA since 1987, whose dustcover is not hinged, so is set aside during playback. FWIW, the oil damped spindle and acrylic platter seems to attract dust and static a lot less than any other turntable I had before...including Duals, HK Rabco, Linn, SOTA, Technics, etc. |
I always appreciate your enthusiasm for Technics tables and vinyl playback. I keep the transparent hinged dust cover on a KAB mod’d SL1210M5G down and have no problem seeing the record currently playing. Thanks. It’s hard to imagine a dust cover on my reference technics turntable. Do you see any dust ?? It’s much better without dust cover, i am the one who will never play any vinyl covered by dust cover on any turntables, no matter what , haha I have my first pair of Technics SL1210mkII since 1995 and believe it or not the dust covers for both are still in the original boxes, i have never used them. Even with nothing on the platter, leaving the cover in place limits dust reaching the mechanicals of the turntable and should keep the mat cleaner too. I do clean my turntables and mats from dust. My old pair of Technics still like new and they are open (no dust covers) for 25 years. I have very nice Dust Cover with my Denon DP-80, but i don’t like how it looks when DC up, and i can’t use it with DC down (not my style). Big dilemma for me. Both Dust Covers on my pair of Luxman PD-444 were smashed and cracked in transit, so i removed them. FWIW - in addition to changing the stock feet to threaded spikes resting on a heavy wood platform with layered isolating materials under each corner, I also use small gel "bumpers" on the plinth where the dust cover will rest when lowered. Finally, a weight is placed on the top of the closed cover during playback. ISONOE replaced stock Technics footers long time ago, my upgraded 1210 are on the custom made metal table filled with sand. Or on the rack when temporary in the main system for the short time. |
I believe it depends on how solid your turntable is in correlation to how much it will affect the sound. When you have the cover up it has to gather more sound waves like a sail on a boat. The best would be the kind that does not touch the turntable. If you notice really nice turntables do not have covers attached to the table itself. Cover off while playing is the best. If you want to test it. Have some one listen to the speakers while you talk into the cover with the player on. I keep my record player in a cabinet sitting on a separate plinth with dampers so the sound from the speaker does not affect the music. Like someone said about a separate room. I just isolated it from the affects of the room. |
crustycoot I’ve seen low mass arms so attracted by static from the dustcover that they are lifted right off the record! Stands to reason that less static can also attract the arm, even if not enough for full lift-off.B-i-n-g-o! Give this man a gold star! I have deliberately avoided commenting on this thread, and instead waited for someone else to make this observation. The phenomenon was a particular problem for me back in the early ’80s when I used a Denon DP-80, which I had installed on a nifty two-arm base made by a new company based in the oddly named "Ozone Park" called VPI. So the best answer to the OP’s question is - as is often the case in audio - "it depends." |
Wolf how is a dust cover going to be a bass trap? Do you know what the wavelength of 20 Hz is?? The wavelength of your dust cover is 800 Hz or so. But none of this determines how your dust cover resonates. If you have a flimsy dust cover directly attached to the same platform your tonearm and bearing are mounted to and that platform is not sufficiently heavy, stiff and non resonant. You might indeed have a problem. Correctly made dust covers and turntables like the SOTA and dust covers that are not directly attached to the turntable improve the sound by attenuating the noise (music) in the room by about 20 dB depending on the cover, like having hearing protectors on. Now If you have static in your dust cover lifting your tonearm you need to throw the whole mess away and start over. Better yet switch to digital only. But then I guess you'll get paranoid about something else. If you really think your dust cover causes sonic deterioration you also need to throw the whole mess away and get a decent turntable. Protecting your records is the first priority, sonics second. But Like I have said repeatedly all the turntables I have had in the last 40 years have sounded better with their dust covers down. I guess I know how to pick them or is it just dumb luck. I love you guys who complain about static and spend thousands of dollars on record cleaning junk. I use conductive sweep arms and dust covers, get better sound and I never clean a record I have owned from new. Never have to. The secret to cleaning records is don't let them get dirty. |
dust covers that are not directly attached to the turntable improve the sound by attenuating the noise (music) in the room by about 20 dB depending on the cover, like having hearing protectors on.Wow 20dB 🤯.....here's the miracle sound-proofing material the world has been waiting for.......1/8 inch acrylic 🥳 And no proof required...🤣 Wait till I notify that village looking for it's inhabitant.....that he's been found 🤥 |
Halcro, I have a decibel meter. My SOTA does 18 db down, the SME 25 dB. It has a thicker cover. The difference does decrease a bit with louder volumes. These figures are at 95 dB. Most good hearing protectors come in at 25 to 30 dB and what are they? A thin plastic shell stuffed with a little foam with a seal fitted. Geoffkait, a Helmholtz resonator requires a throat (opening) Do hearing protectors resonate? Sorry, no mints at all. I keep meaning to run a test record with a frequency sweep to compare attenuation at different frequencies. I will report when I get it done. Of course I can not be sure what other dust covers will do. Depends on the design. halcro, most house walls are pretty resonant just bang on one. Now go into the next room. What happens to the sound? And the door is probably open. Now close the door. What happens. The dust cover is another room with a closed door. Some miracle ha. You guys crack me up. Assumptions are the mother of all ---- ups. If I say the word my post will get deleted. Assumptions based on mythology are fairy tales. |
Mijo, where is your turntable situated with respect to your speakers? In my opinion the best way to cure acoustic feedback, which is what you seem to be talking about, is by careful placement of the turntable in your listening room. And other obvious measures. Not by using a thick or thicker dust cover. If you need a dust cover to prevent acoustic feedback, then you need to think again about your room and the equipment in it. By the way, I had to laugh when I saw your comment above that it is we (the no dust cover crowd) who are obsessed with static electric charge. From everything of yours that I have read, it is you who are so obsessed, not the “no cover” aficionados. But in the end, I think we can all agree that everyone should do as he or she pleases. This is not a religion. About your practice in relation to cleaning LPs or your stylus, have you looked at your stylus under a microscope lately? I am wondering what it might look like. I am sure you’ll say it’s immaculate. |
thanks for everyone’s input I didn’t intend this to be a question of how much everyone spent on their turntable or entire system, could I spend more on mine yes but when I pulled my 80’s Onkyo turntable out of the garage and my boxes of albums out that I never thought would be cool again too it brought me back and I liked what I heard, I’ve always been in to audio equipment and good sound, so I don’t have a 6 figure system and that’s ok again, could I afford it, yes but I choose to spend my money on my car and my house. Thanks again for your responses |
