Guidocorona
Thanks for your honesty, i was a victimog to the same thing yestoday.
I have extremly sesitiv ears and cant stand hot treble and i dont like hifi sound i like music and musicality.
linn klimaxes are VERY sensitiv to the up stream gear used and the do not cover over lesser preamps and sources.
In my room the treble is sweet and linare no glare no brightness no nothing only music.
I do use sonus faber cremonas
Wonderfull combination by the way.
regards |
My apologies Tda2200 and all for my spectron/Nuforce confusion, I should remember not to post on any matters of substance unless I have had enough sleep. Glad you enjoy the Linn Klimax Solos. Unfortunately I find Linn sometimes to be a little exhuberant in the treble region for my particular preference. . . . Perhaps I don't understand true Hi Fi. |
Sorry i accidently hit submit as-is button
No its nuforce ref 9 SE V2`s im referring to.
Linn klimaxes are analog amplifires that uses there owen developed digital powersupplys or smps like nuforce.
The are a patended design i beleive the call them brilliant power.
The use chips instead of the analog curcuits and have no capacitors in the signal path.
Wich is very short.
Linn is the biggest true hifi company in the world today and where those that started hifi back in the early 70`s with there sondek lp 12 vinyl player , the klimax series are the top of the line offering .
The also just released the klimax ds digital source that replaces the sondek cd12.
There are tons of info about the klimax solos on the net .
thanks
|
No its nuforce ref 9 SE V2`s im referring to.
Linn klimaxes are analog amplifires that use digita powersupplys or smps like nuforce.
The use chips instead of the analog curcuits and have no capacitors in the extremly signal path.
Linn is the biggest tru hifi company in the world today and where those that started hifi back in the early 70`s with there sondek lp 12 vinyl player , the klimax series are the top of the line offering .
The also just released the klimax ds digital source that replaces the sondek cd12.
There are tons of info about the klimax solos on the net .
thanks |
Are you referring to Spectron Musician 3 SE V.2? What's the technology underlying the Linn Climax Solos? |
I have demoed the se v2`s a couple of times.
All times fully runned in and with reference caliber frontends.
The always had a strange mid/top colouration wich alwasy ruinned it for me.
The are also somwhat dark sounding .
I then demoed the linn klimax solos well the do cost 3 times as much but the sounded twice as good.
Musicality refinement and even bass slam are from a different world.
Sorry not to kick nuforce but the are getting way to much hype if you ask me.
thanks |
I emailed the folks at Nuforce a couple of months ago and they said they would not be there. I guess it is possible for a dealer to bring the amps(?) I would love th hear a V2 version. |
Does anyone know if Nuforce amps will be shown in any suites at RMAF in Denver next month? |
Or is perhaps the problem a religious one? One of 'believers' vs 'unbelievers'? In which case the issue is in danger of becoming aprioristic, and as such a specious argument by definition? Whereas a different and technologically agnostic way to look at the entire matter may be to start from a set of personal sonic requirements or practical constraints, and empirically determine which particular device or devices match such sonic requirements and constraints. This last approach may avoid the frequent pitfall of broad generalizations, which tend to be flawed either way. |
Chris & Jb some interesting thoughts, thanks. I've assumed that the whole thing started with Stereophile's review of the PS Audio HCA2 along with its induction into their Class A rating all with seemingly less that stellar measurements. It can be difficult to admit that a fifteen hundred dollar amp has similar strengths as a high dollar unit.
Mr. Levi' enthusiasm for the SE's might be more of a testament to the Avalon Eidolon's as well as the 9's. The Eidolons are extremely revealing of changes within the system and as such provide a simply wonderful platform to hear the NuForse 9V2SE's.
Vic |
Chris -
I agree with you and find the situation remarkable. I wish I had an answer but I don't. I will say that many of the extreme opponents that I have spoke with never spend a lot of time will switching amps in general and reached their conclusions in a knee-jerk fashion.
On the other hand, I have not found anyone that has spent a respectable amount of time with a NuForce amp and remained completely opposed to them, unless they had a vested interest. (i.e. did not carry them, did not manufacture any “Class D” amps or recently spend tons of cash on a more traditional design)
Also, the "new technology" argument does not fly with me. By my estimate, the Bel Canto Evo hit the market in 2001 and I believe there were others before that. The current state of D amps, such as any of the V2 from NuForce, represents a culmination of development and refinements to the technology. It has have taken CDs 25 years to sound really good, whereas these D amp have taken 7 - 8 years.
Then there is the resistant to change concept. Although you cannot quantify it or measure it, a reasonable mind can see that one who owns (or worse, recently spent larger sums of cash on) a mega buck linear or tube amp, will naturally shy away from a "newish" product which is 1/4 the price, 1/10 the weight, 1/25 the size and 100% cooler in temperature yet sound just as good if not better.
Be honest, have you ever defended a purchase (speakers being the most common) even though a "better" product became available soon after AND you could have afforded it??
All these issues could contribute to the division to extremes you spoke of....or we believers could just be wrong.
John |
It is still peculiar to me that there is an evident dichotomy among the audiophiles who like and don't like NuForce (and other class D amps with or without built in switch mode power supply). Many proponents say: "Wow, those amps can easily beat over US$10,000 amps", while the opponents say: "The whole technology is bad. It is an immature technology full of pitfalls and shortcomings. The treble response sucks big time. Avoid them as the plague, etc.". I haven't seen such an extreme polarization within the audiophile community as in this case. Even in the case of solid state vs tube debate audiophiles are less polarized, in that most of them are aware that both technologies have their own benefits and shortcomings. I'm wondering what actually is the cause this dichotomy regarding the digital vs conventional amp technology.
Chris |
It reads like an over-the-top rave to me. (Which, as an owner of v1 9SE's, is not necessarily a bad thing.) Honest question: how credible is Mr. Levi? I haven't followed his reviewing history.
Also, PF should copy edit its reviews. This one was a bit sloppy in spots. |
I wanted to point out that Bob Levi just posted his review of the NuForce 9 V2 SEs (mine to follow) and his thoughts are relevant to issues raised in this thread. i.e. comparisons to mega buck amps...
Read Here:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/nuforce.htm
Anyone care to comment? |
I got my 9SEV'2s back from upgrade.
Yes they doooo need a break in, and I have run mine in for 100 hours. Before break in holy bass and fog and mist. I felt like I needed to move them 10" feet further out from the wall. Now all I can say is I have nirvava with my system. I feel no need to change anything, and honestly my system sounds better then live music. It is so clean and clear and "full". Happy! Yes the V2's in my opinion are a step up from from the 9SE's. |
yes you can easily upgrade the 9 to either a 9V2 or the 9SE V2
|
Jim, thanks, for the update. I may try and send a pair of the Ref9's and have them upgraded to the 9SE V2's. They are pretty fair regarding upgrades and I believe Nuforce can take them up to this level. Does anyone know the answer to this? |
Well it's official. I will be buying a pair of V2 SE's to replace my 336.
As far as a blow-by-blow. I can say that I honestly don't think there is an aspect which the 336 is better than the V2 SE's. Not texture, not speed, not bass, not imaging, not detail, not musicality - nothing.
To all the doubters - please give them a listen before writing them off. |
Jb -
I'll keep updating as I continue to aurition them - but they are no joke and my Levinson has a scared look on it's face. :) |
Jim Swantko -
How about a blow-by-blow comparision to your MLs??
John |
Often a thin sound is due to underpowering; that is, given the efficiency of the speaker and the size of room and your musical taste, more power may be needed. Sometimes we think we have enough power just because we get volume....
Art |
Jp1208 -
Yes I am using the V2 SE's on my 10T's. I have never used a NuForce product before this audition. I must say that I'm very impressed so far. |
JB, let me understand: there are two configurations:
1. A Krell integrated used on its own.
2. The same Krell integrated used as a linestage in conjunction with a NuForce and a yet unspecified IC between the two.
Observations: there exists a 2nd hand report, according to which One of the two configurations above may have sounded thinner than the other, but we do not really know which one. Given the ambiguity of the findings, and the necessity of there existing an additional unknown IC to add to the variables, I am not sure if this finding is bringing us any new knowledge quite yet. Could you clarify with your friend? |
Jim, are you using the 9SEV2's with your 10t's? Did you have the V1's before? |
Dunno....it was his guick interpretation that the presentation was "thin"....I suspect it was the Krell.
I agree - Nuforce does not sound thin in my set up. |
In my experience - the Nuforce is anything but thin... |
Apologies JB, your use of 'it' is ambiguous. Did the NuForce sound thin, or did the Krell instead? |
Jeez.....I go on vacation for 10 days and my thread jumps from 70 posts to 160!!!
I still love the Nuforce Ref 9 SE V2...However, I lent the Ref 9 V2 to another review who used a Krell FBI Integrated as his "pre" and he thought it sounded thin.........Krell. |
Hi,
Would it be a waste to use these amps in an application that doesn't require high power or are they that good regardless? The reason I'm asking is that I think my JM Lab Mini Utopias could be better controlled than they are by my cj Premier 11a. I also have a cj Premier 17LS and I guess what I'm looking for is a way to better utilize the speed/articulation potential of the Utopias without sacrificing the naturalness/beauty of the cjs.
I posted this question on another thread but in retrospect realize it might have been inappropriate (sorry Samuel) so I thought I'd try again here; or perhaps it's just a dumb question. Any thoughts? |
I recently left my V2 integrated on for 72 hours straight, driving Thiel 1.6's for breakin (3 ohm min), and found that there was a little residual RFI interference on cheap FM tuners by the end of that period. Perhaps the long time and heat build-up changes component spec just a bit. My high quality Denon FM tuner is not affected at all but $30 clock radio had a hint more static at that point, which disappeared when I turned the integrated off.
However when I first turn the V2 unit on, there is no static even on the cheap FM radios (unlike with the V1, where the cheap FM radios were unlistenable immediately upon turn-on of the NuForce).
This is my long way of saying that I've decided to NOT leave my NuForce integrated turned on 24/7. Usually with solid state, I do leave it on 24/7 unless it has a high bias to class A.
Art |
I have to say that the Ref 9 SE V2's certainly live up to the hype in my system. Well done NuForce. |
Jp1208, I don't turn anything off in my system other than my vpi sds.
If you have not given nufore gear a try, one dollar will give you a month of at home audition of said gear. |
Stltrains, Do you turn your pre-amp off and leave the amps on. I thought turning off the pre and leaving the Nuforce amps on was not advised. I would not want to leave a tube pre on all the time.
If there is better attack in the instruments then my guess is they have studied other amps to try and give better musicality and texture in the midrange. More attack to me leads to a livlier slightly forward presentation. This is good actually and peaks my interest. It is that little fuzz around certain vocals and instruments that brings me closer to realism or a live performance. Not being in your face but just being there. |
Jp1208, when I originally compared the Nuforce Ref 9s to my ARC VT100MKII, there were many characteristics of the Nuforce amps that I liked better than the ARC, including transparency, dynamics, bass extension and control, mids, highs, etc. I've never had an issue with lack of bloom or texture previously with the ARC or the Nuforce. However, before I upgraded to the V2s, on a few piano recordings, I did get a sense of sterility in the mids, even some harshness. But since the upgrade, that is completely gone. Those same piano recordings sound incredible. As far as adding bloom, I would say since the upgrade to the V2s, mids are much more natural sounding than before, but I don't know if anything is added. The way I would characterize the Nuforce now is almost like a crystal clear window into the recording. Whatever my CD player plays, I hear. That includes both good and bad in the recordings. If you have a great front-end, you'll hear every nuance of the recording with the Nuforce amps. As far as the heat goes, I don't notice the amps being any hotter than before the upgrade, but the SEs might be different. |
Jp1208 in my system the new addition of V2 hasn't changed the sound of instruments that i was hearing with ref9-SE, just added to the air around them. Along with less distortion better attack and decay of notes. It may be a little early to get a true appraisal yet. I have a piano in my rather large den slash music room and when playing the real piano and then listening to my system, Elton Johns piano comes through rather close to the real thing. I consider when it comes to timber of instruments and voice there is so much to take into account for what we assume is missing. We all are trying to get that real sound, and i don't think its possible to get the true absolute sounds of voices and instruments.
In the end though, satisfaction from our gear is achieved through musical enjoyment.
I leave my amps on all of the time. no problem at all. |
Ggil and Stltrains, beyond the transparency these amps can produce did they add some bloom to the mids or give them some texture that they are missing? The amps are good and they do sound nice but after an A/B with some Linn Klouts they did lack in musicality or texture of the instruments. There was a significant difference in how horns and vocals were produced. Great size on the Nuforce and smooth but lacked the realism. It also seems to me that a tubed pre could be a very good choice. Can you leave the new amps on all the time and just turn off the tubed pre? |
Hello Ggil, yes these little brutes are a super vehicle to get to musical nirvana. I was up till late last night playing lp after lp. I have a good selection of my favorite music, classic rock and roll. A few of Tom Ports hot stamper lps Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon, Santanas Greatest hits, along with other great sounding lps. My musical enjoyment was fulfilled to the max. |
Stltrains,
>>After a few days under my amps belt i am glad i went with v2 upgrade, a no brainer for sure.<<
I second that!! I don't have the SEs, I have the Ref 9s, and they are wonderful sounding amps. The upgrade was indeed a NO BRAINER. While everyone else is debating about the merits of Class D amps and Nuforce's continuous upgrades, I am enjoying music like never before!
I personally believe that any company who rests on their laurels and stops innovating is dead in the water. The name of the game for any technology company is "Innovate Or Die". And the fact that Nuforce is offering its customers an upgrade path to their latest innovations is a tremendous service. |
9rw for a dollar you can contact audiooracle, being he is a nuforce dealer. Get a pair for in home audition for a month. You may have to wait a bit its my understanding nuforce cant keep ref 9se v2 in stock. Then if your ears can describe the words you used above great. If not then all of those other amps out there are for your calling. If you are happy with what you already have thats great to.
viclondon what you said above is so true, you dont have to upgrade at all thats your call. After a few days under my amps belt i am glad i went with v2 upgrade, a no brainer for sure.
No matter what gear i am using, i listen to the music not the system, its the music i love. |
Aponter4: Well, you're the one who broke the news about the Ref 10. I'll defer to you, but we can only imagine what kind of improvements the v2 will offer. Dynamics to die for, silky highs, rock-solid bass and a tube-like midrange. It will make all other amps even more obsolete. |
9rw that's great news! Can you give us some insight into the kind of improvements the 10 will bring. |
Me too can't wait for version 10, 11 and 12 to come out. I will skip 13 though as it is an unnlucky number, but then will get 14 and 15 at the same time.
Nuforce gives the chance to keep up whit a fast growing technology at almost no cost, which is great. Also it is the best way to keep upgraditeis under control |
Yea cant wait, for just a few more dollars i again will have the latest and best nuforce amps, my warranty will start over again. The best part for those who dont want to upgrade, they wont have to! i will though. |
Aponter4: I believe! And in 6/08 the Ref 10v2 will be yet another order of magnitude better! |
Anyone compared Nuforce to Audiosector Patek chip amps? I have the Pateks (running them XLR bridged), and have found them quite pleasing, with many of the attributes I am reading about in this thread (they are the SS amps 6Moons likes) |
Well all i have my upgraded ref 9se V2 amps back. The new included bag is a nice touch. The crisp stamped V2 on the front panel is nicely done. After getting them wired and playing cds i was struck by the detail and air in the upper end. I play vinyl when in the sweet spot. My cd player is not in the same league as my analog gear. This is the best i have heard cds sound in my system. It was quite pleasing.
The time came for vinyl and again a step up in what 9se could deliver. The noise floor is bottomless. The attack of notes is crisp and precise, decay is surly well defined. Bass is strong, present, and tight. Sound stage is deep and wide, and imaging is spot on. Being that my ref 9se amps were well broke in, out of the box i am quite pleased. The addition of V2 to already fine amps is a real plus.
Speaking on vinyl gear a few posts above were discussing nuforce with tubed equipment. I have a ear 834p modded and tube rolled, its a good match with my nuforce gear. It now is a back up though.
My tom evens groove plus srx is as good a phono amp around.
IMHO |
Wait 'till the reference 10 comes out, as early as 1/08, and you will then all believe in travel in time and in wormholes! |
I've heard that the heat "issue", is just do to where they place the components inside the chasis on the V2. Which, I guess, is slightly different than where they were on the V1.
I plan to have my Ref 9's upgraded to V2 when they reduce the backlog. But I'm wondering if I should try a tube pre first?
Right now, I run my digitally modded SB3 into a Lite DAC AM and then straight to the amps.
Speakers are Vandersteen 3A's. I've never heard any amp control them like the Ref 9's |
I wonder if V2 is less efficient. |
My experience is with the integrated. I owned the original 50 watt v1, then upgraded to 100 watt v2, then upgraded to v2. I think the v2 is cleaner, clearer sounding, and more extended on top; possibly more extended on bottom not sure. Overall it is very noticable and I cannot hear any sonic downside to the upgrade.
Oddly the unit seems to get hotter on top than it used to. I read some place that with v2 on the integrated, the heat is redirected to the top of the unit instead of the bottom, for easier dissapation. I ran the unit 48 hours at substantial volume to break in some Thiel 1.6's and it got pretty warm. Not too hot to touch, but noticable. I do agree that venting the heat on top is better. I am surprised that a class D or class T or whatever would get so warm (It's not class A, right?). Anyway, I don't know if the monoblocks will have the same characteristic or not.
Art |
