Boom goes the dynamite. Simply Q, it is obvious to me that you are bashing a product and an honest businessman for the sheer purpose of bashing him.
Is it not obvious that everyone else who has posted on this thread absolutely drools over Ben's products? Not a single bad thing has been said about Ben or is products by those who are actually using them in their systems.
Ben's communication is golden, I know of no other manufacturer on the market who will take as much time to respond to emails or forum threads. He is passionate about what he is making and because of that his equipment's performance is beyond measure.
In the scheme of things, his products are new and so it is not surprising that he is offering upgrades relatively often. Beyond that, he offers many of the upgrades for free. Unlike most companies that offer a 50% trade in policy, Ben is confident enough in his products to offer the upgrades at his own personal cost. That in and of itself is deserving of ridicule in business terms. But it should tell you that he is not trying to cheat people out of their money.
So I suggest that those of you who continue to bash Ben and these products put your money where your mouth is. Ben has been more than generous with his offers. |
Early in this thread I made two posts, raising what I consider to be legitimate questions and concerns, from the perspective of someone who, as I stated, has no particular knowledge of the products. Based on what has been said in the subsequent posts by Ben and many others, a follow-up seems appropriate.
One of the two issues I raised concerned the merits of the product, and whether it might simply be an attempt to capitalize on the aura that surrounds the name Western Electric. It seems to me that that question has been satisfactorily answered by the many subsequent responses -- the product obviously provides good value to many people in many systems.
The second issue I raised was to question the present and future integrity of the wire's insulation, in view of its age. Obviously, that concern only pertains to those of Ben's products which are made from many decades old WE wire, which was the subject of the original post. I raised that issue because, as I stated, I have encountered MANY cases of brittle and crumbling insulation on wiring in 1930's radios I have restored.
In many of those cases, the insulation consisted of a rubbery material, perhaps similar to the rubbery material used on the WE wires, or perhaps not.
My feeling is that the many subsequent posts have provided grounds for considerably increased confidence with respect to that issue, but obviously not 100.00% confidence. So as Elizabeth said, the issue has been discussed, pro and con, and we can all make our own decisions.
One last word, concerning the debate between Ben and Simply_q about "low resistance." It seems obvious to me that both parties have a good understanding of the electrical principles involved, and anyone familiar with Simply's post history will realize that he is exceptionally knowledgeable about many technical matters. The controversy arose because of differing interpretations of phraseology. Ben was using the term "low resistance" as contrasted with zero resistance. Simply_q interpreted the term as being incorrectly used in contrast with high(er) resistance.
I suggest that we make an effort to consider the intended meaning behind each other's words before adding unnecessary fuel to the fire.
Regards,
-- Al |
Fuzzbutt17 Let's start with electronics 101...
When you shorten the length of a wire or circuit (commonly known as a "short") you LOWER resistance.
If you were to connect a wire between the hot and neutral of a power outlet, simulating a "short" in a power cord, you would trip your circuit breaker. This is because there is no LOAD or RESISTANCE on the circuit and full current is flowing through the breaker.
Now that we've established that Simply Q knows NOTHING about how electronic circuits work, some of you may consider taking any other advice he may have. The only thing that's been established is that you never got beyond Electronics 101. There's this thing called the real world where things don't always work like the overly simplified and idealized versions presented in textbooks. In the real world, a "short" isn't just an idealized zero ohm bridge between two conductors in the circuit. When I refer to higher resistance, I'm talking about the resistance of the shorted connection. If it's an exceedingly low resistance, then it won't cause any heating to speak of. However higher resistances can cause heating, heating that can be sufficient enough to cause a fire. And the levels of current required needn't be so high as to cause a breaker to trip or a fuse to blow. And it's not just shorts that can cause a fire. Partial opens can as well. This is where there is a failure in the wire that results in a higher resistance than there would otherwise be, such as a crack in a solid conductor or the breaking of a number of strands in a stranded conductor. It was a partial open that nearly caused a fire in my attic several years ago due to an improper splice that was made in the wiring over the kitchen by the guy who did the lighting when we had it remodeled. And in cases such as this, the breaker doesn't trip because it's caused by the normal levels of current flowing through the wire. Over the past year I've taken back product from both direct sale customers and distributors and either replaced it with newly upgraded versions or upgraded it for FREE. Is that an option that's available to everyone who has purchased your products? If so, then I would have to say that is quite admirable. You shouldn't keep it such a secret. As for "pride"...
Anyone that's been reading this thread wouldn't doubt the pride I have in my products. I didn't say you didn't have any pride in your products. I was responding to your having said that nothing gives you more pride than selling to Asian customers. For that to be the case, it means you somehow have less pride when selling to someone in say, the US or Europe. That just seems a little strange to me. |
Mintzar Boom goes the dynamite. Simply Q, it is obvious to me that you are bashing a product and an honest businessman for the sheer purpose of bashing him. I haven't bashed any particular product. All I said was that I wouldn't recommend using the cloth insulated Western Electric wire for power cords. And I said that because it's the cloth insulated Western Electric wire that most people out there are using for things such as speaker cables. The original poster didn't ask about any particular type of Western Electric wire or reference any particular person or company selling cables using Western Electric wire. And in spite of my making it perfectly clear that I was only referring to cloth insulated Western Electric wire, instead of simply saying that the wire he was using wasn't cloth insulated, it was rubber insulated, Fuzzbutt17 instead used the opportunity to start a whole marketing campaign. |
Hello Al,
Thank you for your honest questions.
When you are looking at a brittle insulation inside of a component, it is the result of YEARS of heat. Often this is caused by internal components in an old radio, such as the tubes, and has nothing to do with the viability of the original wire.
I have seen MANY modern UL listed extension cords fall prey to the same "symptom" from years of the wire heating due to excessive current draw and modern internal wiring due to a similar chassis heat.
I can not speak for ANY wire aside from the wire I use.
It is QUITE supple, flexible, and in what I would consider "like new" condition.
I have some of this same wire that has been used in audio power cords for over 10 years that is still supple, flexible, and shows no signs of wear or aging.
I recommend that any person purchasing cords, cables, or raw wire only deal with a trusted professional so as to minimize the possibility of purchasing improperly stored, aged, or rotted NOS wire.
As for Simple Q, he may be knowlegable, but it was quite obvious he was looking for a fight if you read his comments in context.
Also, in the case of a power cord having a short, it is ONLY possible that it would create a lower resistance path.
It would create a zero load situation, at least for an instant, until either it blew the breaker or melted the shorting strand.
There is NO POSSIBLITY of a higher resistance situation.
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Simple Q...obviously a fitting name.
Don't say I didn't warn you about showing your ignorance of electronics.
To start with you are mixing some truth with some falsehoods.
When you have a short the ONLY possibility is that you have LOWERED resistance. This is because you have now put a lower resistance path in parallel with the original load.
The reason it heats up is that being the "path of least resistance" all the current wants to flow through it rather than the proper path of higher resistance.
You create a situation where only part of the wire is conducting all of the current and it heats up much in the same way as the filament in a light bulb or the element in an oven.
A short will do one of two things: trip the breaker or spark and melt the strand of wire.
Unless there are HIGHLY flammable materials around this micro-spark it is not going to cause a fire.
When you have an open circuit that is a different situation. It creates a "spark gap" that causes heat as a spark of current jumps between the two near touching conductors.
It is not "higher resistance" at all. It is a SPARK GAP.
You are correct, that in this situation it will not trip a breaker and can cause a fire.
Higher resistance is what happens when you have too much current draw on wire or connector. This is common when light duty extension cords are used for heavy current items.
In this case, so long as the current draw is lower than that of the circuit breaker, the wire will heat and degrade the insulation causing a fire hazard.
A circuit breaker doesn't sense resistance, it senses amperage/current draw. In the case where you are plugging too many devices into one circuit it exceeds the amperage rating and trips the breaker. In a case where you have a short it creates a path of low/no resistance which in turn conducts too much current and trips the breaker.
Now for a more complex situation.
A power cord that has been crushed and the insulation is worn though causing an INTERMITTENT shorting.
In this case the wires are shorting and sparking.
If for some improbably reason it doesn't trip your breaker then you would obviously smell it.
Electrical fires often take place in VERY old components or buildings where heat or spark ignites dust. This is a situation where the electrical components are being used beyond their useful life.
UL listing can't help.
The other category of common electrical fires are USER ERROR where a person exceeds the maximum rating of a cord or connector or is using a damaged cord or connector.
UL listings can't help you here either.
As for pride in selling to Asian customers...
That is different from pride in my products. It is the pride of re-claiming what was lost.
At this time in history the US owes a significant percentage of our national debt to Asian countries.
There is NO DOUBT that this is going to end badly for our children and our children's children.
Signs of recession and financial imbalance are all around us and only getting worse.
If you can't understand my pride in selling US made products to the countries to whom we owe the most debt as a nation then your understanding of "balance of trade" and "international finance" are as limited as your knowledge of electronics. |
Fuzzbutt17 As for Simple Q, he may be knowlegable, but it was quite obvious he was looking for a fight if you read his comments in context.
Also, in the case of a power cord having a short, it is ONLY possible that it would create a lower resistance path.
It would create a zero load situation, at least for an instant, until either it blew the breaker or melted the shorting strand.
There is NO POSSIBLITY of a higher resistance situation. You're still not getting it. I'm not talking about a higher resistance compared to the resistance prior to the short. I'm talking about the resistance of the short itself. No short is going to have ZERO resistance, and not all shorts are created equal. Some shorts will involve a higher resistance than others. The point I am making is that the lower the resistance of the short, the less chance there would be for significant heating to be developed. If the wires got all mashed together somehow, that would be about as low a resistance a short as you could imagine and would be the best case scenario as this would most likely allow sufficient current to trip the breaker or blow the fuse. Now consider a different kind of short. One where there is a failure in the insulation. It hasn't failed to the point that it allows physical contact between conductors, but such that the insulation's resistance is low enough as to cause enough current to flow through that resistance to heat it up and cause it to melt or worst case, catch fire. In this case, the short would have been of a HIGHER RESISTANCE than the short previously described. And could be high enough so as not to allow enough current to flow to trip the breaker or blow the fuse. You get it now? |
Oh Yeah! My Mojo-Audio power cord just went up in flames. I get the $10K!!! I'm in the money, I'm in the money!!! Ben, I will email you where to PayPal the money! Wait, Oh no, the fire just melted my camcorder, so I lost the entire video, rats! I'll have to get back to everyone as my home just burst into flames and I have to call the local fire department! I wish I lived with Rx8man next to the fire house!
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Fuzzbutt17 Simple Q...obviously a fitting name. It's Simply, not Simple. Perhaps a new eyeglass prescription is in order. Don't say I didn't warn you about showing your ignorance of electronics. Yes, I've only been designing and building electronics for the past 30 years. Never managed to learn a thing in all that time. When you have a short the ONLY possibility is that you have LOWERED resistance. This is because you have now put a lower resistance path in parallel with the original load. THAT'S not the resistance I have been referring to. I have been referring to the resistance of the SHORT ITSELF. I made this clear previously when I said "When I refer to higher resistance, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE RESISTANCE OF THE SHORTED CONNECTION (emphasis added). If it's an exceedingly low resistance, then it won't cause any heating to speak of." Did you not bother to read what I wrote? I wrote it in rather simple English so I don't see why it would be difficult to understand to anyone who bothered to read it. The reason it heats up is that being the "path of least resistance" all the current wants to flow through it rather than the proper path of higher resistance. No, not all of the current necessarily wants to flow through it unless the other end of the cable is open which may or may not be the case. The current divides proportionally to the resistances in parallel. And if you want to get technical, the resistance increases as the wire heats up. You create a situation where only part of the wire is conducting all of the current and it heats up much in the same way as the filament in a light bulb or the element in an oven. See above. A short will do one of two things: trip the breaker or spark and melt the strand of wire. You're forgetting number three. The wire simply heats up. For it to melt, it must exceed its melting point. And to exceed its melting point (which is just a little over 1,000 degrees), it would require a sufficient amount of current. And there's no guarantee of that because how much current is drawn depends on the resistance. If the resistance is high enough (and again, this is the "high resistance" I've been referring to), it won't melt. And there are many materials whose flash point is well below 1,000 degrees. When you have an open circuit that is a different situation. It creates a "spark gap" that causes heat as a spark of current jumps between the two near touching conductors.
It is not "higher resistance" at all. It is a SPARK GAP. Again you drone on as if you never bothered to read what I actually wrote. I didn't say an open circuit. I said a partial open. This is a case where the circuit hasn't gone fully open, but instead presents a high enough resistance to cause significant heating. In a case where you have a short it creates a path of low/no resistance which in turn conducts too much current and trips the breaker. Only if the short's resistance is low enough to cause the breaker to trip. If the resistance is high enough, it won't cause the the breaker to trip but may still heat up to the point that it can cause a fire. As for pride in selling to Asian customers...
That is different from pride in my products. It is the pride of re-claiming what was lost.
At this time in history the US owes a significant percentage of our national debt to Asian countries.
There is NO DOUBT that this is going to end badly for our children and our children's children.
Signs of recession and financial imbalance are all around us and only getting worse. Fair 'nuff. |
Bigkidz Oh Yeah! My Mojo-Audio power cord just went up in flames. I get the $10K!!! I'm in the money, I'm in the money!!! Ben, I will email you where to PayPal the money! Wait, Oh no, the fire just melted my camcorder, so I lost the entire video, rats! I'll have to get back to everyone as my home just burst into flames and I have to call the local fire department! I wish I lived with Rx8man next to the fire house! Jeeezuz, will you get over it? I've not said ANYTHING specifically relating to any Mojo Audio power cord. Nor does this discussion about shorts have ANYTHING specifically to do with any Mojo Audio power cord. It has to do with Fuzzbutt17 saying some rather naive things about shorts IN THE GENERAL SENSE. So if you haven't anything to actually add to the discussion, please stop running around like some hysterical twelve year old girl. |
I think you are mixing terminology Simple Q.
Short = Contact = Zero Resistance
What you are likely referring to is called a SPARK GAP.
It is VERY common for old homes to have electrical fires caused by a combination of old/worn wiring combined with renovations that move the wires causing shorts and spark gaps.
Shorts blow fuses/breaker and spark gaps create carbon that can potentially result in high resistance, heat, and fire hazards.
It is also common when a novice upgrades vintage gear that they cause a similar fire hazard.
Lets make this simple. There are only TWO reasons for electrical fires. Products that are being used beyond their useful life and products that are being used beyond their rated specifications (user error).
In both cases UL listing don't help and neither of these cases apply to any of my products.
Simple Q is obviously not a customer of mine with a grievance.
He has neither heard nor touched any of my products.
What's the deal then Simple Q?
Why do you feel the need to twist my every word in an attempt to discredit me and my products?
What have I ever done to you?
Did I date your sister?
Is it past life karma?
Are you just bored or are you simply a mean person looking for a fight?
If I have done ANYTHING to offend you I sincerely apologize.
As for the rest of you on this thread I apologize that you had to bear witness to my less than professional behavior.
Most of my offers still stand:
Mojo Audio has changed its return policy to include full refund of ground shipping both to and from.
In addition to a 30-day 100% money back guaranty I will now offer a 90-day 100% trade up policy.
You'll see these changes in my next eBay listing and on my website in the near future.
As for my offer to Elizabeth to try my power cords, that still stands. If you don't prefer them over what you are currently using and decide to keep them I'll give you $100 over and above anything it cost you to audition them.
As for my $10K "burst into flames" challenge that was irresponsible of me.
I seriously doubt that any person that would attempt to collect on such a challenge is capable of doing it in a safe manner.
It would surely be "Jack Ass" with electronics.
Sorry to disappoint, but I take that back.
I've written more on this forum in the past 24 hours than my total forum writing over the past 24 years.
Sorry to say, I will no longer be commenting on forums.
Now I understand why some of my friends that manufacture high end audio product with more experience warned me about getting into it with people on forums.
If you feel the need to bash my products or my integrity as a businessperson, please feel free. You won't get a response out of me in the future.
If you feel the need to communicate with me vs. make a public display, please feel free to contact me via e-mail or call and I would be happy to attempt to answer any of your questions.
In any event, I do not recommend coating my or any other companies power cords with bacon grease in an attempt to lure your obnoxious neighbor's dog into chewing on them.
~ Benjamin
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I am sure Simple Q just likes to get people stirred up!
It's entertainment to him. Just a thought! |
Fuzzbutt17 I think you are mixing terminology Simple Q.
Short = Contact = Zero Resistance Only in the overly-simplified, idealized world of Electronics 101 textbooks. In the real world, contacts have non-zero resistances. Shorts blow fuses/breaker Not always they don't. It depends on the condition of the short. Simple Q is obviously not a customer of mine with a grievance.
He has neither heard nor touched any of my products.
What's the deal then Simple Q?
Why do you feel the need to twist my every word in an attempt to discredit me and my products?
What have I ever done to you?
Did I date your sister?
Is it past life karma?
Are you just bored or are you simply a mean person looking for a fight?
If I have done ANYTHING to offend you I sincerely apologize. Wow, paranoid much? Get some help. We're not talking about any of your products nor have I said anything specifically about any of your products. |
This would be so much more entertaining if it were translated into Pirate. |
Jrn I am sure Simple Q just likes to get people stirred up! Not at all. If someone is going to say something as incredibly naive as "If an electrical item SHORTS OUT it will NEVER cause a fire" (emphasis from original), I'm going to point out that it's incredibly naive. And if that someone gets their panties all in a twist because of it, then it's not me who's getting them stirred up. They're doing that all on their own. |
Mintzar This would be so much more entertaining if it were translated into Pirate. Ya think? Let's see. Fuzzbutt17:
Don`t say I didna warn ye about showin' yer ignorance o' electronics.
T' start wi' ye be mixin' some truth wi' some falsehoods.
When ye be havin' a short th' ONLY possibility be that ye be havin' LOWERED resistance. This be on accoun' o' ye be havin' now put a lower resistance path in parallel wi' th' original load.
Th' reason 't heats up be that bein' th' "path o' least resistance" all th' current wants t' flow through 't rather than th' proper path o' higher resistance. Hmmm. Not bad. Let's try some jive. Fuzzbutt17
Don't say ah' dun didn't warn ya' about showin' yo' igno'ance uh electronics.
To start wid ya' are mixin' some trud wid some falsehoods.
When ya' gots' some sho't da damn ONLY possibility be dat ya' gots' LOWERED resistance. What it is, Mama! Dis be a'cuz ya' gots' now put some lowa' resistance alley in parallel wid de o'iginal load.
De reason it heats down be dat bein' de "pad uh least resistance" all de current be hankerin' aftah flow drough it rada' dan de propuh' alley uh higha' resistance. What it is, Mama! Ha! That's pretty good too. I dunno. I think I ultimately prefer... Swedish chef! Fuzzbutt17
Dun't sey I deedn't vern yuoo ebuoot shooeeng yuoor ignurunce-a ooff ilectruneecs.
Tu stert veet yuoo ere-a meexing sume-a troot veet sume-a felsehuuds.
Vhee yuoo hefe-a a shurt zee OoNLY pusseebility is thet yuoo hefe-a LOVERED reseestunce-a. Thees is becoose-a yuoo hefe-a noo poot a looer reseestunce-a pet in perellel veet zee ooreeginel lued.
Zee reesun it heets up is thet beeeng zee "pet ooff leest reseestunce-a" ell zee coorrent vunts tu floo thruoogh it rezeer thun zee pruper pet ooff heegher reseestunce-a. Maybe because of Keith Olberman's reading Thurber's The Black Magic of Barney last night. |
I surrender. I apologize. I give up. What do you want from me?
I'm not going to metaphorically drop my pants so we can slap them on the table and measure them.
Simply Q (sorry for the previous typo), I would be happy to go off forum and discuss resistance in malfunctioning circuits.
We can discuss capacitance, inductance, and even quantum physics if you like. I have no doubt that I may learn something from you, if nothing else, how I might communicate more effectively.
What I am not willing to do is make a public spectacle on a forum or to defend myself or my products anymore.
People mentioned my company name.
People gave links to my website and eBay listings.
People made comments about my taking advantage of naive customer by using the Western Electric name.
People brought up the potential of my products bursting into flame.
People brought my R&D process and business practices into question.
Most importantly, people got me to react in a manner that is unprofessional (OK...some of it was rather amusing and fun).
That's over.
Say what you want about me, my company, or my products.
Praise or criticize.
So long as you don't say anything bad about my Cat.
Well, I'm also rather sensitive about my weight an my bald spot. But my products, technical expertise, and business practices are fair game.
We won't hear back from me in a public forum.
Feel free to contact me one-on-one. |
Fuzzbutt17 I surrender. I apologize. I give up. What do you want from me? Simply recognizing that Electronics 101 textbooks don't tell you everything you need to know about how things work in the real world would be a good start. So long as you don't say anything bad about my Cat. I would never. I love cats. Have any photos you can share? |
Well now that we've got that debate behind us, and a lot faster than the previous Simply-q versus Herman masterpiece match-up, I'll be happy to share a cat photo of my own: clio |
Beautiful! And the cat's not bad either. ;) Nah, she's beautiful too. Three of my four cats are gray tabbies or tabby mix. Here's my boy Taz (named the photo tenpin because that's what he looked like--he's since lost most of his beer gut). TazSo at the risk of going too far off topic, what are those speakers? DIY? And is that a DDS ENG-90 Pro waveguide on top? |
Oops. Nevermind. Just noticed you have your system listed. :)
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Actually I live with 4 cats and 2 dogs...all rescues.
E-mail me and I'll be happy to share photos with you.
As for the "short debate" I believe we were talking apples and oranges and that is why we disagreed to some extent.
There is no comparison between the way 50 year old NOS wire(meaning NEW old stock as in "like new" vs. "not used")and 50 year old wire in an older home or vintage gear will react.
There is also QUITE a difference in potential dangers in worn house wiring, worn wiring in vintage gear, and power cords or extension cords (being new, NOS, or whatever).
Old house wiring and vintage gear wiring are hidden and often surrounded by flammable materials such as dust. They are also stationary and usually don't become dangerous unless they are moved.
Unless you re-wire an old house or vintage gear even the most brittle of insulation is still quite effective. It's when we bend and move wires that the brittle insulation becomes a short or spark gap situation.
OK...rodents have been known to chew on things and move things around but rodents are my cat's responsibility.
Extension cords and power cords are usually moved around and flexed. The act of doing this will usually move/crack the fatigued insulation and cause a short that would trip a breaker rather than heat the wire to the point of combustion.
Do a search on electrical fires and you will see that it is RARELY a cord that catches fire but a wall outlet that is filled with decades of dust that shorts out, heats up, and bursts into flame.
Once again, these things have nothing to do with products I sell or NOS wire in general. They have to do with worn out insulation or using a wire or connector beyond its rating.
I can show you wire that's less than 5 years old and UL listed that has cracked and potentially dangerous insulation as well as 50 year old wire that has been inside of a component and is in near new condition.
I think we all got a bit off track with this thread.
Is NOS wire good?
Some is and some isn't depending on the wire and the end use.
Is NOS wire safe?
Once again, it depends on the condition of the specific wire and the end use.
Is UL listing important?
Mostly to insurance companies.
UL standards do not mean a product is safe but only that it meets certain criteria that would make it suitable for use in SPECIFIC situations.
New and modern UL listed wires and connectors are every bit as potentially hazardous as NOS or vintage wires if they are not used as they are intended.
Going back to my original point in my first posting: if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't mess with electrical components or devices.
This means new, NOS, UL listed, blessed by the Dhali Lama, or approve by Ms. Cleo the psychic. |
Fuzzbutt17 Actually I live with 4 cats and 2 dogs...all rescues. Coolness! One of mine I got from my neice's friend whose cat had kittens. One I got from a rescue shelter. And the other two I adopted as stray/abandoned. Looks like I may be taking on another when my loser neighbor across the street gets booted out of their house. I'm already buying food for it. One dog. Also a stray/abandoned. As for the "short debate" I believe we were talking apples and oranges and that is why we disagreed to some extent. Well, you weren't getting what I was referring to by "higher resistance" that much is certain. There is no comparison between the way 50 year old NOS wire(meaning NEW old stock as in "like new" vs. "not used")and 50 year old wire in an older home or vintage gear will react. Nothing I had said regarding shorts had anything specifically to do with your wire, NOS wire, or any other wire in particular. It only related generally to how shorts can occur and cause sufficient heating to potentially cause a fire. I'd only cautioned previously against using the cloth insulated Western Electric wire for power cords. Your wire's not cloth insulated. It's rubber insulated. While it may have a cloth covering, I consider the primary insulation to be rubber. The wire I was talking about uses cotton as the wire's primary insulation. |
After plugging these Mojo power cords into my system, it was a very cool thing to hear musical details come through that weren't there with more expensive power cords. Very cool, indeed. (o: |
Cloth insulated WE wire was for low voltage signal, not for AC (as you probably know).
IMHO it also doesn't sound as good with wide bandwidth signal since it was optimized for mid/voice transmission.
The WE speaker wire is about the same. I used it for years with full range speakers but it too is not wide bandwidth and tends to sound a bit cloudy with a rolled off top end.
It can be a good cure for "digititus."
Please keep in mind that I'm speaking in ABSOLUTE terms and that both the silk/enamel covered signal wire as hook up/IC wire and the speaker wire are exceptional values if you get the right "vintage" at the right price.
Much of their popularity was originally based on them being SO inexpensive and music being narrower bandwidth than it is today.
At their current pricing there are much better options IMHO.
Now you know why my company only sells NOS wire power cords and not other products made from NOS wire. I can buy modern wire that sounds better for the same or less $$$ and I can buy all I want rather than hunting around the world for scraps.
Soon enough we'll no longer be making NOS wire power cords since I can barely find 30' of the specific wire I've been using and people that have it for sale want too much for it. I have a good inventory of AC wire but at the rate I'm selling power cords it won't last for too many years.
There are SO many variations of these NOS wires...plated with this or that....shielded with this or that...wax or enamel coated...etc, etc, etc.
I don't recommend people thinking they can simply buy something off of eBay and they are good to go. Most of the wire I've seen for sale on eBay is not the "right" vintage.
Much like with tubes, people hear about "chrome tops" or "black plates" or "halo getter" or whatever and they think they are getting the famous vintage they've read so much about and they are not.
As they say: "Let the buyer beware."
That being said, if anyone wants a "grab bag" of different gauges and types of WE solid core hook up wire I would be happy to sell it to them very cheaply. These were the wires I used for R&D but ended up going with modern wires instead.
For $50 I'll gladly give anyone that wants it a bag of coils of different "vintages" of WE solid core wires that would sell on eBay for 5X that price. You'll be saving me the trouble of listing them individually. |
Ben, I think it would be redemptive to educate people on the theoretical advantages of the WE copper processing.... |
I know only the basics of WE wire manufacture.
High purity copper was DRAWN from a copper rod which results in very long crystal lengths.
The strands were dipped in a molten plating bath. The plating alloy was proprietary and a trade secret. Sort of like the Colonel's herbs and spices (I believe some of the ingredients are a bit different).
There is something about the plating that makes it both non-oxidizing yet conducts almost identical to copper.
The act of dipping in a molten plating bath annealed the copper. Annealing relaxes the crystalline tensions within the copper.
The strands of plated copper were twisted into different gauge bundles.
The bundles were coated with a proprietary polymer insulation. Just because you know the polymer don't believe you know the insulation. An example of this is Polyurethane. The same polymer that is used to protect furniture is used to make Spandex. Hard and clear vs. elastic and white. Both polyurethane.
For added flame retardance and abrasion resistance a cloth cover was put over the polymer insulation.
The result is the best sounding AC wire I have heard short of the custom copper ribbon wire I'm using in my new top-of-the-line power cord.
I've tried EVERY pure copper and plated copper wire I could get my hands on over the past 10+ years and have not found a better sounding copper wire for AC conduction.
Personally I compared it to power cords by companies like Sunyata, Nordost, Kimber, Straight Wire, Transparent, etc. that sold for over $1K. A simple power cord made from this wire and Wattgate basic copper connectors beat all of them by a huge margin.
When I began selling basic power cords on eBay for $100 I knew they would sound better than anything for under $1K.
I had no idea that audiophiles with $30K+ systems would be buying them to put up against $2K5+ power cords.
All my profits went into R&D. We learned that modest Chinese made pure copper plug sets sounded better than not only the Wattage we were using but the most expensive of Furutech, Oyaide, and Kimber plugs.
BTW, I am an OEM Furutech distributor.
We also learned that certain gauges of wire as well as shielding and twisting schema sounded better.
When I say "we" I refer to about half a dozen beta testers with high end systems that sold their $2K-$3K power cords and replaced them with my NOS cords.
I was disabled in 2006 as the result of a car accident. My small power cord business was supposed to be a hobby. A year later I just hired two employees to keep up with the overwhelming demand.
In my formal career I was a product development engineer, a technical consultant, and owned my own computerized embroidery company. Over the years I specialized in computer numerically controlled robotic machinery.
My hobby for over 30 years was DIY audio. I love acoustic music. I found that most "audiophile" products are "pumped up" and distort the music's flow along with the organic tones and timbers. I got into making my own cords and cables because that was the only way I could hear the music I loved.
Apparently there are many others of you out there that feel the same way about the time, tune, organic timbers, and musical flow being more important than EQ, imaging, or the other "attractive distortions" that most audiophile cable/cord companies are selling.
I would just like to close by saying I am no genius and I do nothing original. Apparently I have a good ear and I've simply combined existing technology and components that other companies manufactured to make a more musical product.
The geniuses at WE made this AC wire decades ago as well as developed most of the circuits that audio manufacturers are using to this day. We are all "standing on the shoulders of giants" as they say.
The only real advancements since then were in digital and microchips. Basic electronics hasn't changed all that much.
By all means, if you enjoy DIY, experiment like I did. You will certainly have fun and save $$$.
On the other hand if you want to benefit from my 30+ years of experience then purchase my products. You will certainly save a lot of time and $$$ as well as space in your basement where you keep your "failed experiments."
One last word of caution about NOS wire. Don't fall for the more modern A.I.W. version of the Western Electric AC and speaker wire. This is NOT the stuff that I am using. Now that the word is out, people are pulling this stuff out of the back of their warehouse and selling it all over eBay for 5X what it sold for only a few years ago.
I'm not saying this is a bad sounding AC wire, only that the REAL stuff sells for MUCH more and I haven't found more than 30' of it on eBay in a given month. The guys that have it know what it is and they sell it for much more than $1-$2 per foot like the A.I.W. wire.
Good luck with your DIY projects!
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Fuzzbutt17 Cloth insulated WE wire was for low voltage signal, not for AC (as you probably know). Sure. But stuff that doesn't stop some people from doing incredibly stupid things. Look at the Mapleshade magnet wire power cords for example. ;) IMHO it also doesn't sound as good with wide bandwidth signal since it was optimized for mid/voice transmission. Huh? It's a wire. How on earth do you optimize a wire for mid/voice transmission? Sure, the electronics were optimized for the voice range in order to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible. But that has nothing to do with the wire itself. |
On the list of "stupid" my number one is people that bundle several strands of a signal wire with improper insulation (like silk) to make a power cord.
Now THAT is a fire hazard!
If you haven't tried magnets, don't knock them. I've found they reduce noise better than anything else. Then again, you need to use the RIGHT magnet of the RIGHT polarity in the RIGHT situation (have fun experimenting).
As for band width, don't ask me...I'm not a WE engineer.
What I can say is that when we've compared the enameled WE solid core signal wire with the plated solid core signal wire and found that the plating had a bright and hard top end. The enameled sounds MUCH more organic.
We also found that compared to the best of modern cotton covered and air dielectric high purity copper signal wires of a similar gauge that both of them had among the most detail of ANY wire we ever heard in the mid band but lacked energy in the bass and were hard in the top end.
The resulting sound, though impressive at first, was on the thin side and gave me a headache in combination with some music or audio gear.
I can only GUESS that since this wire was intended for VOICE they did something that optimized it in the mids. Once again, I'm not a WE engineer.
As for the WE speaker wire...
It is all PLATED and uses a polymer insulation. The wire itself is actually the same they used for AC...they just made them in twisted pairs with marking or color to ID + from - and called it speaker wire.
Not a sin...didn't we all use the same zip cord for AC and speakers in the day? That was pro and zip cord was for home use.
All I can say is that when you compare it to the best of modern speaker wires you will find it lacking in the top end. Overall it sounds VERY warm and attractive...a great cure for "digititus."
Once again, I can only GUESS that since this was used with older tube amps on high efficiency speaker systems that utilized compression horn drivers (like the famous VOTT), that it was OPTIMIZED for that system.
I've heard VOTTs in a home with this wire. It sounded GREAT. Then again, when you are sitting less than 20' from a compression horn driver that was meant to fill a THEATER you can appreciate a bit of a rolled off top end.
BTW, the VOTTs only go up to about 12Khz...15KHz at best. Once again, they didn't need the extension in the top end.
Please keep in mind, I can only GUESS at the reasons WE did what they did.
My friend and mentor that introduced me to all of this vintage wire called himself an "audio archeologist" and was a collector. He had a ROOM filled with the "whose who" of vintage drivers and amps and would pull them out and set-up systems that we would play around with.
On the other hand, his MAIN system was all high end studio gear. Quite a contrast between the "brutally accurate" modern studio gear and the "attractive distortion" of the vintage. |
Fuzzbutt17 High purity copper was DRAWN from a copper rod which results in very long crystal lengths. Which is how most all copper wire has been made for the past century. There is something about the plating that makes it both non-oxidizing yet conducts almost identical to copper. The only thing that conducts almost identical to copper is copper. Or copper alloys which are nearly all copper such as tellurium copper. The act of dipping in a molten plating bath annealed the copper. Annealing relaxes the crystalline tensions within the copper. Virtually all copper wire sold for electrical use has been annealed. The result is the best sounding AC wire I have heard short of the custom copper ribbon wire I'm using in my new top-of-the-line power cord. I've always found it curious how power cords manage to effect the sound when they're not even in the circuit the majority of the time. Well, the safety ground is always in the circuit. Though when it's not being used in its sole role of providing a return path for fault currents, all it can possibly do is create ground loop problems. |
Fuzzbutt17 On the list of "stupid" my number one is people that bundle several strands of a signal wire with improper insulation (like silk) to make a power cord.
Now THAT is a fire hazard! Could be worse. Could have been cotton. In my experiments, silk tended to be rather self-extinguishing whereas cotton continued to smolder. Though I wouldn't recommend using either as the primary insulation on a power cord. If you haven't tried magnets, don't knock them. I've found they reduce noise better than anything else. Then again, you need to use the RIGHT magnet of the RIGHT polarity in the RIGHT situation (have fun experimenting). No earthly reason for a magnetic field to have any effect on noise whatsoever. Now, the material the magnet is made from could have some effect if it has a fairly high permeability. The most common source of noise is the safety ground which can create ground loops between equipment. Unfortunately three conductor power cords are ubiquitous in high end, even when equipment chassis would otherwise meet Class II specs and not require it. As for band width, don't ask me...I'm not a WE engineer. Then who was the Western Electric engineer who said the wire was optimized for mid/voice? |
The wire was used for telephone voice transmission.
I can only GUESS that is was optimized since it has AMAZING resolution in this area and not so good response at the extremes.
Magnets have no effect?
Tell that to the companies that are using them and the 10's of thousands of people that purchased these products.
Tell that to recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100K.
Then again, you may want to mail me some Q-tips since my personal testing has shown that properly implemented magnets reduce background noise SIGNIFICANTLY and in a MUCH different way than ferrite.
You could also tell the DOZENS of customers that sold their expensive digital cables and replaced them with my magnetic digital cables that they wasted their $$$ (good luck with that one).
Then again, maybe magnets cause auditory hallucinations that make all of us THINK they sound better?
I don't claim to know the WHY...once again, I'm "standing on the shoulders of giants."
I do know what I hear, I do know what my limited testing equipment reads, and I do know what my customers tell me. |
Fuzzbutt17 The wire was used for telephone voice transmission.
I can only GUESS that is was optimized since it has AMAZING resolution in this area and not so good response at the extremes. It's wire. Fundamentally no different than any other wire of the same gauge. There's noting you're going to do to a wire to optimize it for voice. That's done in the electronics used at the ends of the wire, not the wire itself. Magnets have no effect? A magnetic field will have no effect, no. The material the magnet is made of may have some effect however. Tell that to the companies that are using them and the 10's of thousands of people that purchased these products. Ok. All you tens of thousands of people that purchased these products, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise. Tell that to recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100K. Ok. You recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100,000, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise. You could also tell the DOZENS of customers that sold their expensive digital cables and replaced them with my magnetic digital cables that they wasted their $$$ (good luck with that one). I never tell people they wasted their money. It's their money to spend however they wish for whatever reason they wish. But it doesn't change the fact that a magnetic field isn't going to have any effect on noise. If there's any effect at all, it will be due to the material the magnet is made of. Then again, maybe magnets cause auditory hallucinations that make all of us THINK they sound better? Well, telling people that magnets (or whatever you care to name) can make something sound better can certainly have an influence on their subjective perceptions even if whatever it is is doing nothing at all. In fact, it's trivially easy to get people to perceive differences even when there are none. That's why subjective experience alone is of limited value when it comes to determining what is actually going on and why one shouldn't make objective claims as to what is actually going on based on subjective experience. I'm all for people going with whatever sounds best to them whatever the reason might be. At the end of the day, this should all be about pleasure and enjoyment. I only have problems when people try and extrapolate beyond that and start making claims for which there is no substantial support. |
By the way, exactly what magnet based AC filter and grounding device are you referring to that sells for over $100,000?
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I won't tell you who sells magnet based AC filters and grounding devices out of respect for the owner of the company who is a friend of mine.
He doesn't engage in forums and he warned me about the same.
Apparently he told me that there are some people on forums that seem to know nearly everything about everything and make it their mission in life to explain away anything they don't understand whether or not they've personally tested it or not.
I don't know WHY many things work.
I do know that when I do my R&D testing I am as objective as possible and try to make IDENTICAL components with only ONE difference between them.
Once I come up with what I consider to be an improvement I then send it to my blind testers for comparison (they are "blind" not "deaf").
I then collect the sum of the responses and attempt to draw conclusions.
Some good examples of surprising conclusions of the past year had to do with wire gauges for certain applications and the use of ferrite cores on AC power.
After EXTENSIVE testing the consensus (that makes NO logical sense) was that my 8AWG power cords sounded better on EVERYTHING...even low current draw gear like DACs and phono stages.
Silly me...I originally was telling people to follow the LOGICAL and RECOMMENDED path and to use my 14AWG power cords on low current gear (CD, DAC, phono), the 10AWG on higher current draw gear (like amps), and the 8AWG only on very high current draw gear like power conditioners and high power amps.
I was VERY wrong and this was pointed out to me by my beta testers.
I also started making a digital power cord with a ferrite core. Once again, this is what is ACCEPTED as correct with good LOGICAL support.
In the end we discovered that only CERTAIN digital gear sounded better with ferrite cores and that MOST digital gear sounded better with my Cross-Helix and no ferrite.
Now I offer clip on ferrite cores to allow my customers to decide for themselves if the ferrite makes an improvement in their system.
Silly me...wrong again.
Lucky for me I have beta testers with minds and ears of their own to straighten me out when I THINK I know what I'm doing but obviously don't.
Wait a minute...isn't the basis for the scientific process...you start with a theory and then test it?
Possibly that's how it was eventually determined that the world wasn't flat, that the Earth revolves around the sun, that the moon isn't made of green cheese, that man could fly, and that Coke Classic tasted better than New Coke.
Once again, I don't claim to be a genius.
I don't claim to have any original idea...I study the "classics"...I study "new concepts"...learn new things from just about everyone.
I'm just a guy with limited technical expertise and a pretty good pair of ears.
I also have a diverse group of beta testers with diverse types of audio gear that they set up in very different rooms and use to listen to very different types of music.
I first listen to my prototypes and then I listen to my beta testers.
Seems to be working for me so far. |
Fuzzbutt17 I won't tell you who sells magnet based AC filters and grounding devices out of respect for the owner of the company who is a friend of mine. Then you should never have made any mention of it at all. He doesn't engage in forums and he warned me about the same.
Apparently he told me that there are some people on forums that seem to know nearly everything about everything and make it their mission in life to explain away anything they don't understand whether or not they've personally tested it or not. It's been my experience that it's usually the quacks and charlatans who avoid the daylight. If the claims are legitimate, they won't be able to be explained away. If they can, then the claims being made clearly aren't fully fleshed out. I don't know WHY many things work. First you have to define what you mean by "work." Do you mean "work" as in it produces an actual audible difference or improvement? Or do you mean "work" as in someone simply subjectively perceived some difference? If the former, then you have to first determine that the thing you're talking about actually does "work." Otherwise you'll never get to the WHY part. If the latter, then there's simply no point in even wondering WHY, as it could be any number of things including purely psychological reasons. I do know that when I do my R&D testing I am as objective as possible and try to make IDENTICAL components with only ONE difference between them. As long as you're just relying on your subjective experience, then you're not being objective in any meaningful sense of the word. Once I come up with what I consider to be an improvement I then send it to my blind testers for comparison (they are "blind" not "deaf"). If you're sending it to your testers and they're comparing it to an old version, then they're not blind at all. Lucky for me I have beta testers with minds and ears of their own to straighten me out when I THINK I know what I'm doing but obviously don't. All you're effectively doing is marketing research, not establishing whether or not there's actually anything going on. |
Tired of dancing. Let me END on this little bit to satisfy all the other readers (since it is obvious I could never satisfy you).
"Work" for me means that I hear better time, tune, and musical flow. This seems to be usually be accompanied with higher resolution, better layers, better spacial cues, etc.
Quite often the wire or component that I want to "work" is not the one that does. A perfect example of this would be Furutech connectors. I love the way they are built. The name is well known and respected.
The ONLY problem is that our "subjective" listening tests showed that the pure copper plug sets I'm now using that cost roughly 1/3 as much as the FI-11Cu sound (work) considerably better (as defined above).
All of us wanted the Furutech to win. I sent people 3 identical power cords made from wire that came from the same spool. One with basic brass Wattgate (my original standard), one with Furutech FI-11Cu (Furutech's most popular plugs), and one with a humble Chinese made pure "red copper" plug set.
100% of the beta testers preferred the humble Chinese pure copper plugs. Not some. Not most. All.
Another statistical FACT. In the past 12 months I got only 3 power cords returned on my 30-day guaranty for refund. All three had the same Furutech plug sets.
A similar test was done with the 8AWG wire. Granted, this wire didn't come off of the same spool as the other wires it was compared to. On the other hand, I continually go through spools with slightly different vintages so I have that statistical factor.
Originally I would send people a 14AWG and a 10AWG cord to let them both decide if they liked my power cords over their current reference and to decide which of the two they wanted on which of their gear. At that time I "hypothesized" That some pre amps may sound better with one vs. the other and that all low current draw components would sound better with 10AWG.
I found that when a person purchased a 14AWG by itself they kept it but when a person compared a 14AWG to a 10AWG they would either return the 14AWG in exchange for a 10AWG or order only more 10AWG.
A similar thing happened with the 8AWG. One of my customers (against my advice) ordered a pair of 8AWG for their amps. One of my distributors did the same thing. I thought they were "over-compensating" but as they say, "the customer is always right."
Soon that same distributor ordered more and more of the 8AWG cords and told me he preferred them in his entire demo system. He only sold the 10AWG to customers on a budget.
At this point I did a similar test with 10AWG vs. 8AWG for myself...this guy was right...they do sound more open, detailed, and effortless than the 10AWG even on a CD player or phono stage.
I then did a beta test and 100% of the testers had the same results...the 8AWG was preferred.
People didn't WANT to spend more for the 8AWG. The 8AWG is HUGE and less flexible. The whole thing makes no sense.
Another statistic: since I switched to the pure copper plug sets I haven't got ONE power cord returned for refund (and I've sold 10X as many cords or more).
Another statistic: when I now send customers a 10AWG and an 8AWG to compare I only get the 10AWG returned for exchange.
Another statistic: since I've been recommending my 8AWG Cross-Helix as my best sounding power cord for ANY situation I have had DOZENS of high end customers with $30K+ systems and about a dozen with $100K+ systems that ALL replaced their "whose who" $2K5+ power cords with Stereophile class A ratings and full page adds in magazines with my humble 8AWG.
Another definition of "work" is my level of customer satisfaction. My sales have gone up 4X what they were around Xmas. My returns for refund or replacement have been ZERO since I started recommending the 8AWG as #1 and took the 14AWG from my recommended products list.
I started this business as a HOBBY and had NO IDEA I would do 10% as many sales as I have. I simply know what sound I preferred and made products that pleased my "subjective" testing.
Apparently there are a good number of audiophiles that agree with my "subjective" testing and my criteria that time, tune, musical flow, and organic timbers are most important and other "audiophile" attributes such as "extension, image, depth, and dynamics" are less important.
One last thing...
What is it that YOU do?
How much have YOU sold of original products internationally?
What is the rate of growth of YOUR sales?
As for my friend that arguably makes the finest AC power conditioners and grounding systems in the world. You remember...the one you say is "hiding in the shadows."
Everyone told him a $35K power conditioner was a STUPID idea and would never sell. Everyone told him a $12K grounding system was STUPID and would never sell.
FYI: a $100K system uses more than one of each of these for use in a large building that holds a recording studio.
Lucky he didn't listen to EVERYONE. He now has distributors all over the planet and is quite popular with the "over $250K system" crowd. He has offers by many of the "whose who" to put his power conditioners in their rooms at CES, Rocky Mountain, and other well known audiophile trade shows.
Is he hiding in the shadows?
NO.
He has just learned that it is a WASTE OF TIME to debate things on a forum with a know-it-all like you. He no longer justifies your claims with an answer because he rolls with the "whose who" crowd and has NOTHING to prove.
As for me, I'll leave you with TWO thoughts:
There is a distinctive difference between a person with 30 years experience and one year's experience repeated 30X.
Also...
The difference between knowledge and wisdom is knowledge is TAUGHT and wisdom is EARNED through EXPERIENCE.
I continue to TEST new "theories" and then to confirm my findings with my beta testers and my customer base.
What new ideas or concepts have YOU tested recently?
I wish I could say this has been a pleasure, but it's been more like giving my cat a flea bath.
I'll be interested in seeing your answers to my questions (if you dare) but I won't be responding again.
I only continued with this thread for the benefit of OTHERS and not you.
From now on, I hope to take my more experienced friend's advice and stay off forums.
All the best to everyone.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or comments about my products.
Much of what I know I learned from my customers.
Benjamin
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Simply_q, here you go: http://www.tripointaudio.us/PRODUCTS.htmAudion member Himiguel is the manufacturer. I've had several conversations with him prior to him starting his business so I was pretty aware of his grounding technology and when Ben in his last post mentioned the grounding system it finally clicked. Also, here is comment on Ben's eBay ad referencing the manufacturer: miguel10744 is a manufacturer of high end audiophile power conditioners. He compared my power cords to ones that cost SEVERAL THOUSAND $$$ and mine won. He recently purchased my interconnects and digital cable (from my website): they are now his REFERENCE.
Positive feedback rating:
Cable as described. Great transaction, Highly Recommended. A+ Ben, why hide the manufacturers information? I've never known Miguel to shy away from a conversation about his technology and products. Maybe this is why he doesn't like participating in forums anymore: Thank you for the kind words, Roger. I'm so glad my advise has improved the sound of your system. As you know Holy $hit Inky Blackness can be a highly priced commodity :) But it need not be with a little bit of applied knowledge.
For those interested in what the heck we are talking about, take a look at this thread that Mr. Wavetrader started:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1234813956
Danmyers The specific link in question on that thread can be found here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1234813956&openflup&28&4#28I've know a number of people who have implemented this grounding scheme with great results and at a significantly less cost than Tripoint charges for their technology. |
I use a Xentec .001pf isolation transformer modified with my power cord, Maestro audiophile plugs, and anti-resonance treatment.
I have GREAT results and have heard no better in my own home.
I don't use what I use because it's "the best" but only because it's the best I can afford.
I only listen to people's opinions on such things that have used the two products side-by-side over extended periods of time in the same system.
Better yet, done that on multiple systems.
"Great results" is as subjective as you can get. Did ANY of these people compare their "reference" to a Topaz or Xentec .005 or .0001 isolation TX let alone to some of the other more expensive alternatives?
My guess is "NO" so why should I accept their opinion?
On the other hand, I do know of SEVERAL people that have made similar comparisons. People with electronics engineering and other technical degrees that make their primary living working in electronics, recording, or laboratories.
Some of these people (that could afford anything) purchased the Tripoint solution and some purchased laboratory grade iso TXs.
Personally I've compared the Xentec and Topaz .005 to some pretty impressive "hospital grade" iso TXs as well as some pretty expensive and well known audiophile products.
None of them hold a candle to my Xentec let alone to the better 5KVA .0001pf version.
Then again, Xentec and Topaz iso TXs have a VERIFIED rating of something like -136db of noise reduction and are used in laboratories and high end aerospace applications.
That's not a "subjective" review by an audiophile. That's a verifiable technical FACT.
The Tripoint products offer SIGNIFICANT advantages over my Xentec iso TX. The ONLY reason I don't own one is that I can't afford one (yet).
I noticed that you didn't answer my questions.
Who's hiding in the shadows now? |
Clio09 Simply_q, here you go: http://www.tripointaudio.us/PRODUCTS.htm Thanks, Clio. Went to the website but found absolutely no useful information. Just a lot of buzzwords and hype. He refers to the magnetic modules as patented, but I wasn't able to find any patents issued to a Miguel Alvarez for such a thing. Nor any patent applications for that matter. I do note that his last job before starting Tripoint was as a marketing representative for Bose. ;) Anyway, not much to be said for something that nothing informative has been said about. |
Fuzzbutt17 I noticed that you didn't answer my questions. Because the questions were wholly irrelevant and amounted to nothing more than "My friend has a BIG dick! How big is YOUR dick?" |
SimplyQ: I am impressed by your hew-ing of the UL's and [wire] resistances in your path, but I am interested in your definition of "work" and "quality" and "subjective."
Are you game?
If they let me out of my cage to resurrect order, its something that I do... |
My dick is a fairly average: 6" long when erect.
The problem is that you once again asked the WRONG question.
A more pertinent question might be how many lovers have I had, how long did these relationships last, how often did I have sex, and so on.
You see, I don't find the size of my dick so important but what I've been able to do with my dick.
Interestingly enough, that is a direct comparison to my original questions that you avoided.
It is not MY opinion of MY accomplishments (or my dick) that matters, but rather the opinions of others that allow me to verify if I have truly accomplished anything or if I'm just a "legend in my own mind" as they say.
Some examples of what I've done in my career (without the use of my dick):
I had my own computerized embroidery business for over a decade. My customer base read like the "whose who" with customers like Lexus, Toyota, Intel, Chase Bank, United Way, Big Brother's and Sisters, and Lucent Technologies.
These companies could have gone to ANYONE but the went to me.
Before that I was a consultant for about a decade in soft good manufacture and had consulting contracts all over the country as well as Jamaica, Mexico, and Canada. I worked for companies with NFL, NBA, and NHL products licensing.
Before that I was a product development engineer for a famous international footwear company (that I am discrete enough not to name) that had over $20M in sales.
My current Audiophile products company is growing so fast that I can hardly keep up with current sales even with hiring two new employees this past month.
I'm not bragging. I'm trying to make a point. There are HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of people over the years (not to mention lovers) that could have gone with other people or other company's products but have chosen ME.
This means something.
All I know about you is that you own a computer and you think you know everything about everything and you spend your time criticizing others rather than accomplishing things yourself.
There's an old expression: those that can, do. Those that can't, criticize.
What the $%#! have YOU ever done?
How many HUNDREDS of people have confirmed by choosing to spend their hard earned $$$ with you that the products or services you provide are the best value on the market?
BTW, coming from product development and having been a business owner I can understand WHY a company wouldn't put too much information on their website. It is because they don't want their competition to steal their ideas.
Having "patents pending" for the longest period of time possible is a PROVEN business strategy. When you get a patent you have to EXPLAIN HOW YOU DID IT. This allows your competition to attempt to circumvent your patent and steal your ideas. Also, once you have a patent, it is only for so many years so you want to delay the clock as much as possible so that you can enjoy exclusivity as long as possible.
Then again, this is a "big boy" business strategy that you probably wouldn't understand since I sincerely doubt that you have a business of any size yourself or you would have answered my original questions and you would have KNOWN the significance of those answers.
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Clio09 I've know a number of people who have implemented this grounding scheme with great results and at a significantly less cost than Tripoint charges for their technology. Finally had some time to read post 28 in that thread. I'm afraid Danmyers has some common misconceptions about "ground." Namely the misconception that "earth ground," i.e. a rod stuck in the ground, has some particular relevance to an audio system. It doesn't. Many people believe that earth ground is some magical one-way drain for noise and RF. It isn't. He recommends using a number of copper braid ground straps tied to your components and then brought to a single point that's plugged into the safety ground socket on your wall outlets. This won't help in any way with regard to EMI and RFI. Now, what it CAN do is help reduce noise from the single most common source of noise in audio systems, and that's interchassis leakage currents in the safety ground lead of the power cables. Long story short it's due to capacitive coupling between the AC cord's hot lead and the safety ground lead. The safety ground is connected directly to the equipment chassis and in many components, the signal reference ground is also tied to the chassis. Leakage current flows through the safety ground leads and because those leads have a non-zero resistance, there will be a voltage drop across them. This voltage can then appear at the inputs of interconnected components. By using the copper braid to connect the equipment chassis to the safety ground socket (and it's only about that connection, not any connection to earth ground), you're creating a lower resistance path for interchassis leakage currents and subsequently a lower voltage drop. However while it can be effective, it's really nothing but a band-aid. The real culprit is the safety ground. And it's only required on equipment chassis that don't meet Class II (double insulated) standards. The manufacturers of low- and mid-fi gear have been designing their chassis to meet Class II specs for decades, and is why you see none of it come with three prong cords. However the so-called "high-end" manufacturers have yet to figure this out and three prong cords are ubiquitous, even on equipment which may well meet Class II specs. So instead they foist three prong plugs on everyone along with the problems they can bring about. Sadly, if a high-end manufacturer did come out with a product that didn't have a three prong cord, many would perceive it as some sort of inferior product. |
Fuzzbutt17 There's an old expression: those that can, do. Those that can't, criticize.
What the $%#! have YOU ever done? I've been involved with high end audio for nearly 30 years. I designed and developed my first commercial product some 20 years ago (you can see a photograph of it here). It was the inspiration behind Corey Greenberg's Aunt Corey's Homemade Buffered Preamplifier DIY article published in Stereophile back in 1991. If you've ever read the article, I'm Elvis. I've been involved in the online audio community for over 25 years, from The Audiophile Network BBS and CompuServe's Consumer Electronics Forum in the 80s, to Audio Asylum and diyAudio today. Currently my company manufactures interconnects and loudspeaker cables and I'm working on some electronics I hope to introduce this Fall that utilize passive signal amplification, something I've been developing off and on over the past five or six years. I also do contract work for several other audio companies. Happy now? |
Simple Q try one of the 8 awg Mojo power cords.
Then state your opinion. Do read your replies? You Sound very arrogant.
You seem to relish in arguing for the sake if arguing.
You asked the defintion of "works" I bet most everyone knew what that meant. |
Jrn Simple Q try one of the 8 awg Mojo power cords.
Then state your opinion. For what purpose exactly? And it's Simply Q, not Simple Q. Do read your replies? You Sound very arrogant. Why? Because I have opinions you may not agree with? You seem to relish in arguing for the sake if arguing. Nah. If I were arguing for the sake of arguing then I'd have to try and come up with reasons for arguing. Too much work. You asked the defintion of "works" I bet most everyone knew what that meant. So tell me what it meant. |
I have to chime in again.
Miguel is WORKING on patents for his products, they haven't gone through yet. Once they go through he will be displaying all of his technology for the world to see. Be fair.
I have heard Miguel's Spartan and Troy products in his personal system. They are quite good. I wouldn't purchase them myself, but I also have 3 Topaz isolation transformers. Two of which lower the noise floor by 136dB and the third by 146dB. I have heard MANY high-end conditioners and not one comes close to the neutrality or sheer effectiveness of the Topaz. I have brought them over to quite a few houses (Ben, RX8MAN, and Agear included) and not one time did I leave them disappointed in the performance. Quite the opposite.
Next... magnets.
Cables of all kinds, and anything that has any sort of current through it creates a magnetic field. What you may not be taking into account is that when magnets are added together their magnetic field DECREASES. By adding magnets to cabling and various other products you are effectively decreasing the magnetic field around the conductor. The pulsing of the magnetic field increases resistance in the conductor. By minimizing this magnetic field and lowering resistance you have less distortion.
Let's also cut the crap here, Simply. Grounding systems DO make a difference. WHY they make a difference isn't quite what we're talking about here. The fact that Miguel has sold quite a few Troy units (an owner of which now owns 3 Mojo audio power cords AND is looking for an isolation TX) should attest to the fact that it is worth $12k in enough systems for him to be able to sell it. It seems to me that you are taking every point that someone makes and telling them why they are wrong. Interestingly enough, every point that has been made on this thread is a topic that has made not only a difference, but the SAME difference in every single system I've heard it in. |
Now you've established some credibility.
What is the name of your current company and what is the link to your website?
You claim to know a great deal about a great deal.
You claim to know things that others don't.
You claim that much of what other successful companies are doing or saying is not valid.
Obviously these companies must be doing something right or they wouldn't be in business.
Obviously I must be doing something right or I wouldn't be taking customers away from such prestigious companies as I have been.
Maybe you can explain to me why everyone prefers my 8AWG power cords over my other ones (and anything else they've heard).
So far every tech I've spoken to tells me there is no reason they should sound better and that wire of a certain AWG is good for a certain amperage and all that.
I don't feel any need to explain.
I simply enjoy them and sell them to anyone else that wants to enjoy them. |
Mintzar Miguel is WORKING on patents for his products, they haven't gone through yet. Once they go through he will be displaying all of his technology for the world to see. Be fair. I am being fair. The website says "Differential and common noise reduction with our patent magnetic modules." And whenever I see "patent" mentioned, my BS meter starts twitching. It's absolutely meaningless to the customer. The patent office today rubber stamps most everything, including perpetual motion machines. It's just cynical marketing aimed at those who believe a patent somehow means something other than simply the right to sue. Two of which lower the noise floor by 136dB and the third by 146dB. This makes absolutely no sense. If your noise floor is say, -100dB (not uncommon in a decent system), and you lower that noise floor by 136dB, then your noise floor would have to be -236dB. Which is simply impossible. No gizmo you plug your power cords into can do anything about the self-noise created by the electronics themselves. And no audio electronic system could ever achieve a noise floor of -236dB. The thermal noise in the conductors would be greater than that. Next... magnets.
Cables of all kinds, and anything that has any sort of current through it creates a magnetic field. Yes. What you may not be taking into account is that when magnets are added together their magnetic field DECREASES. The key word here being MAGNETS, as in permanent magnets, i.e. the things you stick on your 'fridge. By adding magnets to cabling and various other products you are effectively decreasing the magnetic field around the conductor. No, you're not. What you're not taking into account (or Mr. Alvarez for that matter if this is his belief as well) is that the magnetic field produced by the permanent magnet is static. It doesn't change. Whereas the magnetic field produced by the cable is always changing. And even with the cable being subject to the static magnetic field from the permanent magnet, the magnetic field produced by the cable still changes. And more to the point, it changes by the exact same magnitude as it was without the static magnetic field. So as far as the cable is concerned with respect to the magnetic field that it's producing, nothing has changed. Read up on "superposition." Now, if you had something which could produce an exact mirror image of the changing magnetic field produced by the cable, which means it would have to wrap 360 degrees around the cable, then you could reduce and ultimately completely cancel the changing magnetic field around the cable. But that would get rather complicated. Though if you were able to surround the cable with something that was highly diamagnetic you could achieve something similar. But even the most diamagnetic materials such as bismuth are only rather weakly diamagnetic. Bottom line, you're pretty much stuck with the cable producing a magnetic field. The pulsing of the magnetic field increases resistance in the conductor. Yes. That's called skin effect. By minimizing this magnetic field and lowering resistance you have less distortion. Sure. But unfortunately, a permanent magnet does nothing to reduce the magnitudes of the changing magnetic fields which cause skin effect. If you want to eliminate skin effect, just use a proper litz wire. Of course it's a well known technology over a century old so it's not going to seem as sexy and alluring as saying something is new, proprietary and on its way to being patented, but it's quite effective. Let's also cut the crap here, Simply. Grounding systems DO make a difference. That's easy enough to say as there's literally nothing that DOESN'T "make a difference" to some number of people. Placing photographs of yourself in your freezer makes a difference to some (no, I'm not making this up). So to simply say something makes a difference isn't saying anything particularly meaningful. |
