NOS Western Electric wire used for power cables??

Elizabeth

First off, ALL old wire is corroded.

No.

First, copper doesn't corrode under normal conditions. It's not like steel where any surface corrosion (i.e. rust) continues throughout the metal until it finally turns to dust.

Copper develops an oxide on its surface which acts a protective layer preventing further oxidation.

Second, most of that old WE wire was tin plated copper so it has even further protection against oxidation.

I've had samples of it that was going on 80 years old and it was still in good shape.

Second it is not nearly as pure as ANY current production. (impure means it sucks at transmitting current well)

Insignificant.

Copper used for electrical purposes is only marginally more pure than it was back in 1913 when the International Annealed Copper Standard was set at 5.8 x 10^7 siemens per meter. Conductivity is often referred to as % IACS. Today, the copper used for electrical purposes is only 101% IACS.

As I said, insignificant.

That being said, I WOULDN'T recommend using it for power cords and I'd be careful using it for speaker cables.

If you want to experiment with it, the best stuff in my opinion is the stranded, cotton braid over silk serve which is typically also impregnated with wax.

Check out Jake's Old Western Electric Stuff store on eBay.

Elizabeth

"Copper developes an oxide which acts as a protective layer which prevents futher oxidation"..AND prevents current flow. Copper oxydation is BAD for signal transfer. since the wire carries the signal ON THE SURFACE OF THE WIRE, and the wire has oxydation, it SUCKS at carrying the signal.

Oh please!

A surface layer of oxidation a few tens of molecules thick isn't going to have any appreciable effect whatsoever when it comes to current flow. Whatever effect it would have at reducing the cross sectional area of the wire would be totally swamped by differences due to simple manufacturing tolerances.

For that matter, it would also be swamped by the effective reduction of cross sectional area due to skin effect and proximity effect.

Worrying about a bit of oxidation is like worrying about whether your wire is 24 gauge or 24.0001 gauge. Are you really telling people that they have to worry about something as utterly insignificant as that? Really?

And no, the signal is NOT carried on the surface of the wire. Signal current flows throughout the entire cross section of the wire. While skin effect will tend to cause the current density to be somewhat higher TOWARD the surface of the wire, all of the current flows WITHIN the wire. And a little bit of oxidation isn't going to have any appreciable effect on that whatsoever.

Nice you put a LINK. so the crazy know where to blow money spent foolishly

Why do you feel the need to engage in personal attacks against those who might enjoy using some vintage wire in their audio systems? And what do you care how they spend their own money?

I suspect a conspiracy here to start selling some crap useless wire to unsuspecting audiophools.
IMO.

It's hardly useless as it works just fine, though again, I wouldn't recommend using it for power cables as it was never made for that purpose in the first place and can pose some serious safety issues.

You really need to loosen your sphincter a few... dozen notches. Getting your panties all in a bunch just because someone else might enjoy something that you would not isn't healthy.

Rx8man

Whatever the case may be, the Mojo-Audio NOS W.E. replaced all my 2K PC's pretty damn fast, and for the price of admission, who cares ?

Your neighbors might care should your house go up in flames. :)

Rx8man

Hey Simply, these cords been running in my rig for about a year, how the hell are they unsafe ?

And wiring in some peoples' homes had worked fine for years, until it failed and started a fire.

Look, the sad fact is that any clown can take some wires, slap connectors on them and offer them for sale as power cords. And many of them may ultimately be as safe as those made to meet accepted safety standards.

But I would never buy a power cable from an audio hobbyist without knowing that they were.

Bigkidz

Simply do you know what wire that is being used in the cords? WE made a ton of different wire right?. Just looking to understand - I am not looking for any arguements.

No, I don't know the specific wire that's being used in that particular power cord. But that just gives me more cause for concern.

The Western Electric wire that's most commonly touted out there is the cloth insulated wire, which is not something I would ever recommend for power cords.

Elizabeth

And, finally, copper oxydation: if someone believes oxydation is no problem, well sorry for you.

Why sorry? It isn't a problem, your misinformation notwithstanding.

Also, most all of that wire is tin plated, not bare copper.

folks are paying hundreds for something that is supposed to be 'high quality' to some extent. fifty years of oxydation nowithstanding.

I guess it depends how you define "quality." Much of the marketing of "high end" wares focuses on inventing "problems" for which the manufacture just happens to have a "cure."

Most of that old Western Electric wire was high quality when it was made, and unless it's been overly used and/or abused, it's still of high quality.

Fuzzbuttl7

If an electrical item SHORTS OUT it will NEVER cause a fire; it will simply flip a circuit breaker or blow out a fuse. That is why electrical codes insist on these safety device in all home and commercial circuits.

That's a rather dangerous and ill-informed assumption.

It assumes that all shorts are dead shorts and of sufficiently low resistance to so as to allow enough fault current to flow to quickly trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

Such is not always the case and when it is not the case, a high resistance short can have insufficient current to trip the breaker or blow the fuse while allowing enough current to flow through the resistance to cause enough heat to start a fire.

What concerns me is that both on your website and your eBay ads, all you talk about is the wire. Unless I'm missing something, I see no mention whatsoever as to what INSULATES the wire.

Is it cloth? Rubber? Some sort of thermoplastic?

If it's cloth, I wouldn't recommend anyone use them for power cords.

Mintzar

I personally don't like listening to an audio system unless there's at least a slight chance it'll burst into flames at some point during the listening session.

HA!

Sort of reminds me of a quote from Nelson pass, regarding demoing gear at a show.

"If it doesn't work, hope it catches on fire." ;)

I second Sherod's comment, I NEVER see any high-end cables with UL ratings. Nor is it a common occurrence that cables catch fire or I guarantee there'd be some threads about it.

I suppose you've never heard the phrase "Dead men tell no tales"? ;)

And now back to another 30 minutes of commercial-free music... ;)

Fuzzbutt17

Anything is possible (just not probable).

Yes, you could have some sort of a low resistance that MAY not trip the breaker and MAY heat up.

I think you meant to say a higher resistance.

And what exactly would make that event any LESS likely than than a lower resistance short which would trip the breaker?

It was you who said that if there was a short it would NEVER cause a fire because it would ALWAYS trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

That's just plain naive.

To confirm what was already stated: the specific NOS wire I use is MIL SPEC and has cloth covered rubber insulation.

It would have been nice if you'd have said as much on your website or in your eBay ads.

And please, dispense with the "MIL SPEC" stuff. It's little more than a hackneyed marketing buzzword.

Mojo Audio not only creates the finest quality in hand made audiophile products, we also create JOBS.

Great! We can certainly use more jobs. Especially jobs MAKING things.

Nothing gives me more pride than to ship my US made products to one of my many Asian customers.

If that gives you more pride than simply making a quality product no matter where the customer may live, then I think your priorities are little misplaced.

Why have their been so many upgrades to Mojo Audio products over the past year? That is because we don't "hold out" like most companies so that they can launch new products at the next show.

Are products are HAND MADE in SMALL BATCHES so we are able to upgrade our materials and methods frequently.

In other words, you don't like your customers to spend too much time enjoying what they have before you tell them that what they have isn't as good as what they could have if they upgrade.

It's certainly good marketing and does help to increase the bottom line. I mean, there's a very good reason why half of the stuff you see on the shelves at the supermarket have "NEW & IMPROVED" on them.

Though I'm not so sure that it serves the customer well and I think more and more people are growing tired of the upgrade merry-go-round.

We also don't have a product line at different "price points" just so we can market to different customers. We only make products that are the BEST VALUE on the market or we don't make them at all.

Have you wondered why we don't sell speaker wires or why it took YEARS before we sold interconnects and digital cables?

Let me get this straight.

It can take you YEARS before you put a product on the market, but once you do, it gets upgraded frequently?

Sounds backwards to me.

Why not spend those YEARS getting it right to begin with so you're not having to upgrade so frequently?

Rx8man

Simply, do me a small favor and stop quoting me, it reminds me of someone else in these forums, thanks.

Sorry. I'm oldschool. Been communicating online like this for a quarter century now. Back in the day, you'd be admonished if you DIDN'T quote.

I won't quote you again.

Fuzzbutt17

Let's start with electronics 101...

When you shorten the length of a wire or circuit (commonly known as a "short") you LOWER resistance.

If you were to connect a wire between the hot and neutral of a power outlet, simulating a "short" in a power cord, you would trip your circuit breaker. This is because there is no LOAD or RESISTANCE on the circuit and full current is flowing through the breaker.

Now that we've established that Simply Q knows NOTHING about how electronic circuits work, some of you may consider taking any other advice he may have.

The only thing that's been established is that you never got beyond Electronics 101. There's this thing called the real world where things don't always work like the overly simplified and idealized versions presented in textbooks.

In the real world, a "short" isn't just an idealized zero ohm bridge between two conductors in the circuit. When I refer to higher resistance, I'm talking about the resistance of the shorted connection. If it's an exceedingly low resistance, then it won't cause any heating to speak of.

However higher resistances can cause heating, heating that can be sufficient enough to cause a fire. And the levels of current required needn't be so high as to cause a breaker to trip or a fuse to blow.

And it's not just shorts that can cause a fire. Partial opens can as well. This is where there is a failure in the wire that results in a higher resistance than there would otherwise be, such as a crack in a solid conductor or the breaking of a number of strands in a stranded conductor.

It was a partial open that nearly caused a fire in my attic several years ago due to an improper splice that was made in the wiring over the kitchen by the guy who did the lighting when we had it remodeled.

And in cases such as this, the breaker doesn't trip because it's caused by the normal levels of current flowing through the wire.

Over the past year I've taken back product from both direct sale customers and distributors and either replaced it with newly upgraded versions or upgraded it for FREE.

Is that an option that's available to everyone who has purchased your products? If so, then I would have to say that is quite admirable. You shouldn't keep it such a secret.

As for "pride"...

Anyone that's been reading this thread wouldn't doubt the pride I have in my products.

I didn't say you didn't have any pride in your products.

I was responding to your having said that nothing gives you more pride than selling to Asian customers. For that to be the case, it means you somehow have less pride when selling to someone in say, the US or Europe.

That just seems a little strange to me.

Mintzar

Boom goes the dynamite. Simply Q, it is obvious to me that you are bashing a product and an honest businessman for the sheer purpose of bashing him.

I haven't bashed any particular product.

All I said was that I wouldn't recommend using the cloth insulated Western Electric wire for power cords. And I said that because it's the cloth insulated Western Electric wire that most people out there are using for things such as speaker cables.

The original poster didn't ask about any particular type of Western Electric wire or reference any particular person or company selling cables using Western Electric wire.

And in spite of my making it perfectly clear that I was only referring to cloth insulated Western Electric wire, instead of simply saying that the wire he was using wasn't cloth insulated, it was rubber insulated, Fuzzbutt17 instead used the opportunity to start a whole marketing campaign.

Fuzzbutt17

As for Simple Q, he may be knowlegable, but it was quite obvious he was looking for a fight if you read his comments in context.

Also, in the case of a power cord having a short, it is ONLY possible that it would create a lower resistance path.

It would create a zero load situation, at least for an instant, until either it blew the breaker or melted the shorting strand.

There is NO POSSIBLITY of a higher resistance situation.

You're still not getting it.

I'm not talking about a higher resistance compared to the resistance prior to the short. I'm talking about the resistance of the short itself.

No short is going to have ZERO resistance, and not all shorts are created equal. Some shorts will involve a higher resistance than others.

The point I am making is that the lower the resistance of the short, the less chance there would be for significant heating to be developed. If the wires got all mashed together somehow, that would be about as low a resistance a short as you could imagine and would be the best case scenario as this would most likely allow sufficient current to trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

Now consider a different kind of short. One where there is a failure in the insulation. It hasn't failed to the point that it allows physical contact between conductors, but such that the insulation's resistance is low enough as to cause enough current to flow through that resistance to heat it up and cause it to melt or worst case, catch fire.

In this case, the short would have been of a HIGHER RESISTANCE than the short previously described. And could be high enough so as not to allow enough current to flow to trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

You get it now?

Fuzzbutt17

Simple Q...obviously a fitting name.

It's Simply, not Simple. Perhaps a new eyeglass prescription is in order.

Don't say I didn't warn you about showing your ignorance of electronics.

Yes, I've only been designing and building electronics for the past 30 years. Never managed to learn a thing in all that time.

When you have a short the ONLY possibility is that you have LOWERED resistance. This is because you have now put a lower resistance path in parallel with the original load.

THAT'S not the resistance I have been referring to. I have been referring to the resistance of the SHORT ITSELF.

I made this clear previously when I said "When I refer to higher resistance, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE RESISTANCE OF THE SHORTED CONNECTION (emphasis added). If it's an exceedingly low resistance, then it won't cause any heating to speak of."

Did you not bother to read what I wrote? I wrote it in rather simple English so I don't see why it would be difficult to understand to anyone who bothered to read it.

The reason it heats up is that being the "path of least resistance" all the current wants to flow through it rather than the proper path of higher resistance.

No, not all of the current necessarily wants to flow through it unless the other end of the cable is open which may or may not be the case. The current divides proportionally to the resistances in parallel. And if you want to get technical, the resistance increases as the wire heats up.

You create a situation where only part of the wire is conducting all of the current and it heats up much in the same way as the filament in a light bulb or the element in an oven.

See above.

A short will do one of two things: trip the breaker or spark and melt the strand of wire.

You're forgetting number three. The wire simply heats up.

For it to melt, it must exceed its melting point. And to exceed its melting point (which is just a little over 1,000 degrees), it would require a sufficient amount of current. And there's no guarantee of that because how much current is drawn depends on the resistance.

If the resistance is high enough (and again, this is the "high resistance" I've been referring to), it won't melt. And there are many materials whose flash point is well below 1,000 degrees.

When you have an open circuit that is a different situation. It creates a "spark gap" that causes heat as a spark of current jumps between the two near touching conductors.

It is not "higher resistance" at all. It is a SPARK GAP.

Again you drone on as if you never bothered to read what I actually wrote.

I didn't say an open circuit. I said a partial open. This is a case where the circuit hasn't gone fully open, but instead presents a high enough resistance to cause significant heating.

In a case where you have a short it creates a path of low/no resistance which in turn conducts too much current and trips the breaker.

Only if the short's resistance is low enough to cause the breaker to trip. If the resistance is high enough, it won't cause the the breaker to trip but may still heat up to the point that it can cause a fire.

As for pride in selling to Asian customers...

That is different from pride in my products. It is the pride of re-claiming what was lost.

At this time in history the US owes a significant percentage of our national debt to Asian countries.

There is NO DOUBT that this is going to end badly for our children and our children's children.

Signs of recession and financial imbalance are all around us and only getting worse.

Fair 'nuff.

Bigkidz

Oh Yeah! My Mojo-Audio power cord just went up in flames. I get the $10K!!! I'm in the money, I'm in the money!!! Ben, I will email you where to PayPal the money! Wait, Oh no, the fire just melted my camcorder, so I lost the entire video, rats! I'll have to get back to everyone as my home just burst into flames and I have to call the local fire department! I wish I lived with Rx8man next to the fire house!

Jeeezuz, will you get over it? I've not said ANYTHING specifically relating to any Mojo Audio power cord. Nor does this discussion about shorts have ANYTHING specifically to do with any Mojo Audio power cord.

It has to do with Fuzzbutt17 saying some rather naive things about shorts IN THE GENERAL SENSE.

So if you haven't anything to actually add to the discussion, please stop running around like some hysterical twelve year old girl.

Fuzzbutt17

I think you are mixing terminology Simple Q.

Short = Contact = Zero Resistance

Only in the overly-simplified, idealized world of Electronics 101 textbooks.

In the real world, contacts have non-zero resistances.

Shorts blow fuses/breaker

Not always they don't. It depends on the condition of the short.

Simple Q is obviously not a customer of mine with a grievance.

He has neither heard nor touched any of my products.

What's the deal then Simple Q?

Why do you feel the need to twist my every word in an attempt to discredit me and my products?

What have I ever done to you?

Did I date your sister?

Is it past life karma?

Are you just bored or are you simply a mean person looking for a fight?

If I have done ANYTHING to offend you I sincerely apologize.

Wow, paranoid much?

Get some help.

We're not talking about any of your products nor have I said anything specifically about any of your products.

Jrn

I am sure Simple Q just likes to get people stirred up!

Not at all.

If someone is going to say something as incredibly naive as "If an electrical item SHORTS OUT it will NEVER cause a fire" (emphasis from original), I'm going to point out that it's incredibly naive.

And if that someone gets their panties all in a twist because of it, then it's not me who's getting them stirred up. They're doing that all on their own.

Mintzar

This would be so much more entertaining if it were translated into Pirate.

Ya think?

Let's see.

Fuzzbutt17:

Don`t say I didna warn ye about showin' yer ignorance o' electronics.

T' start wi' ye be mixin' some truth wi' some falsehoods.

When ye be havin' a short th' ONLY possibility be that ye be havin' LOWERED resistance. This be on accoun' o' ye be havin' now put a lower resistance path in parallel wi' th' original load.

Th' reason 't heats up be that bein' th' "path o' least resistance" all th' current wants t' flow through 't rather than th' proper path o' higher resistance.

Hmmm.

Not bad. Let's try some jive.

Fuzzbutt17

Don't say ah' dun didn't warn ya' about showin' yo' igno'ance uh electronics.

To start wid ya' are mixin' some trud wid some falsehoods.

When ya' gots' some sho't da damn ONLY possibility be dat ya' gots' LOWERED resistance. What it is, Mama! Dis be a'cuz ya' gots' now put some lowa' resistance alley in parallel wid de o'iginal load.

De reason it heats down be dat bein' de "pad uh least resistance" all de current be hankerin' aftah flow drough it rada' dan de propuh' alley uh higha' resistance. What it is, Mama!

Ha! That's pretty good too.

I dunno. I think I ultimately prefer...

Swedish chef!

Fuzzbutt17

Dun't sey I deedn't vern yuoo ebuoot shooeeng yuoor ignurunce-a ooff ilectruneecs.

Tu stert veet yuoo ere-a meexing sume-a troot veet sume-a felsehuuds.

Vhee yuoo hefe-a a shurt zee OoNLY pusseebility is thet yuoo hefe-a LOVERED reseestunce-a. Thees is becoose-a yuoo hefe-a noo poot a looer reseestunce-a pet in perellel veet zee ooreeginel lued.

Zee reesun it heets up is thet beeeng zee "pet ooff leest reseestunce-a" ell zee coorrent vunts tu floo thruoogh it rezeer thun zee pruper pet ooff heegher reseestunce-a.

Maybe because of Keith Olberman's reading Thurber's The Black Magic of Barney last night.

Fuzzbutt17

I surrender. I apologize. I give up. What do you want from me?

Simply recognizing that Electronics 101 textbooks don't tell you everything you need to know about how things work in the real world would be a good start.

So long as you don't say anything bad about my Cat.

I would never.

I love cats. Have any photos you can share?

Beautiful!

And the cat's not bad either. ;)

Nah, she's beautiful too. Three of my four cats are gray tabbies or tabby mix.

Here's my boy Taz (named the photo tenpin because that's what he looked like--he's since lost most of his beer gut).

Taz

So at the risk of going too far off topic, what are those speakers? DIY? And is that a DDS ENG-90 Pro waveguide on top?

Oops. Nevermind. Just noticed you have your system listed. :)

Fuzzbutt17

Actually I live with 4 cats and 2 dogs...all rescues.

Coolness!

One of mine I got from my neice's friend whose cat had kittens. One I got from a rescue shelter. And the other two I adopted as stray/abandoned. Looks like I may be taking on another when my loser neighbor across the street gets booted out of their house. I'm already buying food for it.

One dog. Also a stray/abandoned.

As for the "short debate" I believe we were talking apples and oranges and that is why we disagreed to some extent.

Well, you weren't getting what I was referring to by "higher resistance" that much is certain.

There is no comparison between the way 50 year old NOS wire(meaning NEW old stock as in "like new" vs. "not used")and 50 year old wire in an older home or vintage gear will react.

Nothing I had said regarding shorts had anything specifically to do with your wire, NOS wire, or any other wire in particular. It only related generally to how shorts can occur and cause sufficient heating to potentially cause a fire.

I'd only cautioned previously against using the cloth insulated Western Electric wire for power cords. Your wire's not cloth insulated. It's rubber insulated. While it may have a cloth covering, I consider the primary insulation to be rubber. The wire I was talking about uses cotton as the wire's primary insulation.

Fuzzbutt17

Cloth insulated WE wire was for low voltage signal, not for AC (as you probably know).

Sure.

But stuff that doesn't stop some people from doing incredibly stupid things. Look at the Mapleshade magnet wire power cords for example. ;)

IMHO it also doesn't sound as good with wide bandwidth signal since it was optimized for mid/voice transmission.

Huh?

It's a wire. How on earth do you optimize a wire for mid/voice transmission?

Sure, the electronics were optimized for the voice range in order to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible. But that has nothing to do with the wire itself.

Fuzzbutt17

High purity copper was DRAWN from a copper rod which results in very long crystal lengths.

Which is how most all copper wire has been made for the past century.

There is something about the plating that makes it both non-oxidizing yet conducts almost identical to copper.

The only thing that conducts almost identical to copper is copper. Or copper alloys which are nearly all copper such as tellurium copper.

The act of dipping in a molten plating bath annealed the copper. Annealing relaxes the crystalline tensions within the copper.

Virtually all copper wire sold for electrical use has been annealed.

The result is the best sounding AC wire I have heard short of the custom copper ribbon wire I'm using in my new top-of-the-line power cord.

I've always found it curious how power cords manage to effect the sound when they're not even in the circuit the majority of the time.

Well, the safety ground is always in the circuit. Though when it's not being used in its sole role of providing a return path for fault currents, all it can possibly do is create ground loop problems.

Fuzzbutt17

On the list of "stupid" my number one is people that bundle several strands of a signal wire with improper insulation (like silk) to make a power cord.

Now THAT is a fire hazard!

Could be worse. Could have been cotton.

In my experiments, silk tended to be rather self-extinguishing whereas cotton continued to smolder. Though I wouldn't recommend using either as the primary insulation on a power cord.

If you haven't tried magnets, don't knock them. I've found they reduce noise better than anything else. Then again, you need to use the RIGHT magnet of the RIGHT polarity in the RIGHT situation (have fun experimenting).

No earthly reason for a magnetic field to have any effect on noise whatsoever. Now, the material the magnet is made from could have some effect if it has a fairly high permeability.

The most common source of noise is the safety ground which can create ground loops between equipment. Unfortunately three conductor power cords are ubiquitous in high end, even when equipment chassis would otherwise meet Class II specs and not require it.

As for band width, don't ask me...I'm not a WE engineer.

Then who was the Western Electric engineer who said the wire was optimized for mid/voice?

Fuzzbutt17

The wire was used for telephone voice transmission.

I can only GUESS that is was optimized since it has AMAZING resolution in this area and not so good response at the extremes.

It's wire. Fundamentally no different than any other wire of the same gauge. There's noting you're going to do to a wire to optimize it for voice. That's done in the electronics used at the ends of the wire, not the wire itself.

Magnets have no effect?

A magnetic field will have no effect, no. The material the magnet is made of may have some effect however.

Tell that to the companies that are using them and the 10's of thousands of people that purchased these products.

Ok.

All you tens of thousands of people that purchased these products, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise.

Tell that to recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100K.

Ok.

You recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100,000, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise.

You could also tell the DOZENS of customers that sold their expensive digital cables and replaced them with my magnetic digital cables that they wasted their $$$ (good luck with that one).

I never tell people they wasted their money. It's their money to spend however they wish for whatever reason they wish.

But it doesn't change the fact that a magnetic field isn't going to have any effect on noise.

If there's any effect at all, it will be due to the material the magnet is made of.

Then again, maybe magnets cause auditory hallucinations that make all of us THINK they sound better?

Well, telling people that magnets (or whatever you care to name) can make something sound better can certainly have an influence on their subjective perceptions even if whatever it is is doing nothing at all.

In fact, it's trivially easy to get people to perceive differences even when there are none.

That's why subjective experience alone is of limited value when it comes to determining what is actually going on and why one shouldn't make objective claims as to what is actually going on based on subjective experience.

I'm all for people going with whatever sounds best to them whatever the reason might be. At the end of the day, this should all be about pleasure and enjoyment.

I only have problems when people try and extrapolate beyond that and start making claims for which there is no substantial support.

By the way, exactly what magnet based AC filter and grounding device are you referring to that sells for over $100,000?

Fuzzbutt17

There's an old expression: those that can, do. Those that can't, criticize.

What the $%#! have YOU ever done?

I've been involved with high end audio for nearly 30 years. I designed and developed my first commercial product some 20 years ago (you can see a photograph of it here). It was the inspiration behind Corey Greenberg's Aunt Corey's Homemade Buffered Preamplifier DIY article published in Stereophile back in 1991.

If you've ever read the article, I'm Elvis.

I've been involved in the online audio community for over 25 years, from The Audiophile Network BBS and CompuServe's Consumer Electronics Forum in the 80s, to Audio Asylum and diyAudio today.

Currently my company manufactures interconnects and loudspeaker cables and I'm working on some electronics I hope to introduce this Fall that utilize passive signal amplification, something I've been developing off and on over the past five or six years.

I also do contract work for several other audio companies.

Happy now?

Fuzzbutt17

I won't tell you who sells magnet based AC filters and grounding devices out of respect for the owner of the company who is a friend of mine.

Then you should never have made any mention of it at all.

He doesn't engage in forums and he warned me about the same.

Apparently he told me that there are some people on forums that seem to know nearly everything about everything and make it their mission in life to explain away anything they don't understand whether or not they've personally tested it or not.

It's been my experience that it's usually the quacks and charlatans who avoid the daylight. If the claims are legitimate, they won't be able to be explained away. If they can, then the claims being made clearly aren't fully fleshed out.

I don't know WHY many things work.

First you have to define what you mean by "work."

Do you mean "work" as in it produces an actual audible difference or improvement? Or do you mean "work" as in someone simply subjectively perceived some difference?

If the former, then you have to first determine that the thing you're talking about actually does "work." Otherwise you'll never get to the WHY part.

If the latter, then there's simply no point in even wondering WHY, as it could be any number of things including purely psychological reasons.

I do know that when I do my R&D testing I am as objective as possible and try to make IDENTICAL components with only ONE difference between them.

As long as you're just relying on your subjective experience, then you're not being objective in any meaningful sense of the word.

Once I come up with what I consider to be an improvement I then send it to my blind testers for comparison (they are "blind" not "deaf").

If you're sending it to your testers and they're comparing it to an old version, then they're not blind at all.

Lucky for me I have beta testers with minds and ears of their own to straighten me out when I THINK I know what I'm doing but obviously don't.

All you're effectively doing is marketing research, not establishing whether or not there's actually anything going on.

Clio09

Simply_q, here you go: http://www.tripointaudio.us/PRODUCTS.htm

Thanks, Clio.

Went to the website but found absolutely no useful information. Just a lot of buzzwords and hype.

He refers to the magnetic modules as patented, but I wasn't able to find any patents issued to a Miguel Alvarez for such a thing. Nor any patent applications for that matter.

I do note that his last job before starting Tripoint was as a marketing representative for Bose. ;)

Anyway, not much to be said for something that nothing informative has been said about.

Fuzzbutt17

I noticed that you didn't answer my questions.

Because the questions were wholly irrelevant and amounted to nothing more than "My friend has a BIG dick! How big is YOUR dick?"

Fuzzbutt17

Now you've established some credibility.

But for what purpose exactly?

Words should stand or fall on their own, not on who says them. Not even Einstein got away with that.

What is the name of your current company and what is the link to your website?

Why? What relevance does that have? Unlike some, I have no interest in using the forums here to promote my company or my products. So unless you can tell me how that's relevant to the discussion, I'd prefer not to say. If you simply want to satisfy your own curiosity, send me an EMail.

Obviously these companies must be doing something right or they wouldn't be in business.

Sure. But "doing something right" isn't saying anything in particular. The "something right" a company may be doing may be nothing more than marketing. There's no end of companies who have been in business for a long time selling complete BS. Look at the ads in the back of the National Enquirer sometime.

Maybe you can explain to me why everyone prefers my 8AWG power cords over my other ones (and anything else they've heard).

Could be any number of reasons, including purely psychological reasons. And unless one is able to control for that ambiguity, then no one can give any sort of definitive explanation. And people simply preferring your 8 gauge cords over the other ones doesn't say anything definitive one way or the other.

So far every tech I've spoken to tells me there is no reason they should sound better...

And you don't give any plausible reason why the should. So I guess you're even.

I simply enjoy them and sell them to anyone else that wants to enjoy them.

Great. Then why not keep it as simple as that? Works for me.

Clio09

I've know a number of people who have implemented this grounding scheme with great results and at a significantly less cost than Tripoint charges for their technology.

Finally had some time to read post 28 in that thread.

I'm afraid Danmyers has some common misconceptions about "ground."

Namely the misconception that "earth ground," i.e. a rod stuck in the ground, has some particular relevance to an audio system.

It doesn't.

Many people believe that earth ground is some magical one-way drain for noise and RF.

It isn't.

He recommends using a number of copper braid ground straps tied to your components and then brought to a single point that's plugged into the safety ground socket on your wall outlets.

This won't help in any way with regard to EMI and RFI.

Now, what it CAN do is help reduce noise from the single most common source of noise in audio systems, and that's interchassis leakage currents in the safety ground lead of the power cables.

Long story short it's due to capacitive coupling between the AC cord's hot lead and the safety ground lead.

The safety ground is connected directly to the equipment chassis and in many components, the signal reference ground is also tied to the chassis.

Leakage current flows through the safety ground leads and because those leads have a non-zero resistance, there will be a voltage drop across them. This voltage can then appear at the inputs of interconnected components.

By using the copper braid to connect the equipment chassis to the safety ground socket (and it's only about that connection, not any connection to earth ground), you're creating a lower resistance path for interchassis leakage currents and subsequently a lower voltage drop.

However while it can be effective, it's really nothing but a band-aid.

The real culprit is the safety ground.

And it's only required on equipment chassis that don't meet Class II (double insulated) standards.

The manufacturers of low- and mid-fi gear have been designing their chassis to meet Class II specs for decades, and is why you see none of it come with three prong cords.

However the so-called "high-end" manufacturers have yet to figure this out and three prong cords are ubiquitous, even on equipment which may well meet Class II specs. So instead they foist three prong plugs on everyone along with the problems they can bring about.

Sadly, if a high-end manufacturer did come out with a product that didn't have a three prong cord, many would perceive it as some sort of inferior product.

Jrn

Simple Q try one of the 8 awg Mojo power cords.
Then state your opinion.

For what purpose exactly?

And it's Simply Q, not Simple Q.

Do read your replies? You Sound very arrogant.

Why? Because I have opinions you may not agree with?

You seem to relish in arguing for the sake if arguing.

Nah. If I were arguing for the sake of arguing then I'd have to try and come up with reasons for arguing. Too much work.

You asked the defintion of "works" I bet most everyone knew what that meant.

So tell me what it meant.

Mintzar

Miguel is WORKING on patents for his products, they haven't gone through yet. Once they go through he will be displaying all of his technology for the world to see. Be fair.

I am being fair.

The website says "Differential and common noise reduction with our patent magnetic modules."

And whenever I see "patent" mentioned, my BS meter starts twitching. It's absolutely meaningless to the customer. The patent office today rubber stamps most everything, including perpetual motion machines. It's just cynical marketing aimed at those who believe a patent somehow means something other than simply the right to sue.

Two of which lower the noise floor by 136dB and the third by 146dB.

This makes absolutely no sense.

If your noise floor is say, -100dB (not uncommon in a decent system), and you lower that noise floor by 136dB, then your noise floor would have to be -236dB.

Which is simply impossible.

No gizmo you plug your power cords into can do anything about the self-noise created by the electronics themselves. And no audio electronic system could ever achieve a noise floor of -236dB. The thermal noise in the conductors would be greater than that.

Next... magnets.
Cables of all kinds, and anything that has any sort of current through it creates a magnetic field.

Yes.

What you may not be taking into account is that when magnets are added together their magnetic field DECREASES.

The key word here being MAGNETS, as in permanent magnets, i.e. the things you stick on your 'fridge.

By adding magnets to cabling and various other products you are effectively decreasing the magnetic field around the conductor.

No, you're not.

What you're not taking into account (or Mr. Alvarez for that matter if this is his belief as well) is that the magnetic field produced by the permanent magnet is static. It doesn't change. Whereas the magnetic field produced by the cable is always changing.

And even with the cable being subject to the static magnetic field from the permanent magnet, the magnetic field produced by the cable still changes. And more to the point, it changes by the exact same magnitude as it was without the static magnetic field.

So as far as the cable is concerned with respect to the magnetic field that it's producing, nothing has changed.

Read up on "superposition."

Now, if you had something which could produce an exact mirror image of the changing magnetic field produced by the cable, which means it would have to wrap 360 degrees around the cable, then you could reduce and ultimately completely cancel the changing magnetic field around the cable.

But that would get rather complicated.

Though if you were able to surround the cable with something that was highly diamagnetic you could achieve something similar. But even the most diamagnetic materials such as bismuth are only rather weakly diamagnetic.

Bottom line, you're pretty much stuck with the cable producing a magnetic field.

The pulsing of the magnetic field increases resistance in the conductor.

Yes. That's called skin effect.

By minimizing this magnetic field and lowering resistance you have less distortion.

Sure. But unfortunately, a permanent magnet does nothing to reduce the magnitudes of the changing magnetic fields which cause skin effect.

If you want to eliminate skin effect, just use a proper litz wire. Of course it's a well known technology over a century old so it's not going to seem as sexy and alluring as saying something is new, proprietary and on its way to being patented, but it's quite effective.

Let's also cut the crap here, Simply. Grounding systems DO make a difference.

That's easy enough to say as there's literally nothing that DOESN'T "make a difference" to some number of people.

Placing photographs of yourself in your freezer makes a difference to some (no, I'm not making this up).

So to simply say something makes a difference isn't saying anything particularly meaningful.

Asa

SimplyQ: I am impressed by your hew-ing of the UL's and [wire] resistances in your path, but I am interested in your definition of "work" and "quality" and "subjective."

Are you game?

"Work" can mean a number of things. I gave two different instances of it previously. What I wanted to know is what Fuzzbutt17 intended it to mean.

As for "quality," it can mean a number of things as well. It can be ascribed to some sort of purely objective standard (i.e. "This amplifier's distortion is 0.05%"), or a purely subjective standard (i.e. "This amplifier sounds great!").

As for "subjective," it's that which exists within our mind and is not necessarily an accurate reflection of any objective reality.

Fuzzbutt17

You give either hit and run or avoidance answers to specific questions.

I don't care to waste time answering questions which have absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed.

My guess is that I'm not the only person on this thread that would like to know the name of your company and have the address of your company's website.

What are you hiding from?

Not hiding from anything.

As I told you, if you'd like to know the name of my company and the website, just EMail me. However I haven't received any such EMail from you or anyone else for that matter so it would seem you're not so interested after all.

As for listing all the forums you've been a part of for so many years, all that means is you've had access to a computer for that many years and have potentially been criticizing some and misleading others for that long.

I never intended it to have any particular meaning or relevance with respect to anything I've said. You're the one who demanded the "resume." I humored you. Now you don't like some of the answers. Well boo hoo. They were completely irrelevant to begin with.

What I say either has merit or it doesn't and has absolutely nothing to do with who I am or what I've done.

Instead of sticking to addressing what I've said, you've routinely attempted to obfuscate and try and make it a "personal" issue.

FYI, I don't go on forums to promote my company. As a matter of fact I RARELY go on forums at all.

On this thread people gave my company's name, my eBay listing, and my website address and made accusations about my power cords bursting into flames.

And you had every right to respond to what had been said.

But you weren't content to stick to that. Instead you took advantage of the situation and used it to launch into a marketing campaign in an attempt to try and sell your products here.

From your first post in this thread:

I have DOZENS of customers that replaced their "whose who" Stereophile class A rated $2K+ power cords with mine. The same is true of my interconnects and digital cables.

Don't take my word for it. Don't take their word for it. I suggest you try my (or any other companies) products first hand, for yourself, in your system.

Everything I sell comes with a 30-day unconditional money back guaranty. All you risk is the cost of shipping. There is not even a re-stocking fee.

BTW, I am also "Fuzzbutt17" on eBay if you want to see HUNDREDS of positive feedbacks.

That's not addressing anyone's concerns about safety. That's just shameless, bald-faced MARKETING.

If you want to sell your products, that's what the classifieds and advertisements here are for. Not the forums.

I wouldn't even have noticed it if it wasn't for SEVERAL of my loyal customers sending me e-mails with a link to this thread.

And even now you never miss any opportunity to continue your marketing campaign.

What the hell has "SEVERAL of my loyal customers" have to do with anything relevant to this discussion?

Nothing.

Then you attacked me over several things that I wrote and we were off and running.

Ah, yes. The favorite obfuscation of the quack, the charlatan, the cult leader and the politician. Frame any sort of disagreement by others as an "attack."

BTW, Mitzar was referring to a specification from the website of Topaz where THEY state a -136db noise reduction.

Where is this Topaz website? Wasn't able to find it.

I don't know exactly what this means but any REASONABLE person would assume that it OVERLAPS not ADDS TO the noise of the system which makes it totally valid.

I'm simply going by what Mintzar said, which was "Two of which lower the noise floor by 136dB and the third by 146dB."

I took him to mean the noise floor of the audio system as ultimately that's the only noise floor that counts at the end of the day.

Clio09

Ayre is one company that double insulates its equipment chassis. Charles Hansen has posted numerous times on Audio Asylum his views on ground noise.

Yup. Sadly, the Ayres are rather far and few between.

I also have lifted the grounds off the three prong cords by disconnecting the ground wire altogether, except the one for my power amp.

Not a good idea from a safety point of view.

First it assumes that the interconnected chassis have their signal reference grounds tied to the chassis through a low impedance path. Second, it assumes that the interconnects and circuit board traces are all sufficient to carry the fault current in the event of one of the chassis going hot.

jrn

Simply q , "works" means it musically sounds better or more pleasing in your system. You have to have that defined,...really? When it does not work it simply means whatever you changed makes it sound not as musically pleasing.

Yes, but there can be two reasons for that. One is that it sounded better/different/worse because of an actual audible difference brought about by the item in question, and the other is that there was no actual audible difference and it sounded better/different/worse for purely psychological reasons, i.e. what some would generally refer to as the placebo effect.

So, when a company claims their product "works," which of those two possibilities do they have in mind?

Judging by much of the marketing, there seems to be a rather heavy implication of the former.

Richard_stacy, thank you for the kind words.

Er, except for the part where you said you didn't agree with all my views. ;)

Clio09

Simply_q, yes I know about the hazards, not sure if it applies in my situation, probably does, guess I'll just take the chance.

Fair 'nuff.

Just that I often see this scheme recommended by those who make the assumptions I mentioned. As long as you know they're not safe assumptions that's cool. However not everyone does so it was at least worth mentioning.

Fuzzbutt17

Simply Q: still avoiding me and my RELEVANT questions.

They weren't relevant at all.

To start with, you have ALL my contact information. If you wanted to send me information about your company in private you had every opportunity.

I didn't have any particular desire to send you that information. You wanted me to post that information here in the forum. However it served no purpose for this discussion and since I have no desire to promote my company in these forums I refused.

Further, I said if you wanted to know just for your own curiosity, you were free to EMail me.

Since I haven't received any EMail from you, I can only assume that the reason for your wanting to know wasn't simply to satisfy your own curiosity.

Should I send you an ENGRAVED INVITATION?

No. A simple EMail would suffice.

As for what products you have PERSONALLY listened to, that is RELEVANT because it confirms that you are commenting on products and theories (like magnets) that you have experience with or that you are a know-it-all and are talking out your @#$.

I don't need to listen to anything to know that a static magnetic field isn't going to do anything like Mintzar described. And in case it escaped your notice, what I addressed was only that which Mintzar had claimed.

As for Tripoint, all I've said is that there's nothing to say about them because there's no useful information on their website to say anything about.

So please explain to me why it's relevant that I listen to a product that I've said absolutely nothing about.

Have I been marketing OR offering 3rd party independent confirmation to refute unsubstantiated accusations?

You've been marketing since your first post and in a most over-the-top fashion. To the point that it should more rightly be called huckstering than marketing.

It was stated that NOS wire is a fire hazard.

What I said was that I wouldn't recommend using the old Western Electric cloth insulated wire for power cords.

That had absolutely nothing to do with your product as your product hadn't even been mentioned at that time.

So again, what's the relevance of listening to a product I've not said anything about?

Then YOU accused me of profiteering by frequently upgrading my product over short periods of time.

Admittedly, I did make a rather snarky comment regarding frequent upgrades. But only because I was getting sick of your constant marketing of your products in this forum.

But by the same token, when you said that your customers can have their older products upgraded for free, I said if that's the case I thought that was admirable.

Then YOU accused me of not clearly stating my return or upgrade policies.

Fist, I didn't say anything about your return policy.

Second, what I did was ASK you if free upgrades were an option that was available to everyone who has purchased your products. And if so, you shouldn't keep it such a secret as I saw nothing on your website offering free upgrades.

You never answered that question.

Funny how MOST of the so called "advertising" I did was in response to YOUR accusations.

Funny how you attempt to twist reality to cover your ass.

My comment regarding frequent upgrades was a RESPONSE to yet another of your marketing attempts.

Specifically:

Why have their been so many upgrades to Mojo Audio products over the past year? That is because we don't "hold out" like most companies so that they can launch new products at the next show.

Are products are HAND MADE in SMALL BATCHES so we are able to upgrade our materials and methods frequently.

Not one word of that had anything whatsoever to do with anything what was being discussed here. It was pure, unsolicited advertising.

Funny how MOST people I know like to get 3rd party independent confirmation on a company's products but YOU consider this to be UNIMPORTANT.

I've no idea what this has to do with.

I have a THEORY...

You resent other businesspersons success because you believe with all of your experience and with the amazing values in audiophile products you produce you should be getting "a larger piece of the pie."

No.

What I resent are hucksters like you taking advantage of non-commercial forums like this for the purpose of marketing your products.

Also...

You REFUSE to tell the people on this thread who you are and what your company is for fear that it would give them ammunition to accuse you of things much as you have been doing to other RESPECTED companies and businesspersons.

What I REFUSE is to post the name of my company publicly in this thread in response to a question which has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to what's being discussed.

Sure, I could take advantage of your question and post it here, but that would be taking advantage. And I prefer not to do that. I'm not here to market and promote my company and products. I'll leave that to you.

NO ONE on this thread is being denied knowing who I am and what my company is. As I've said before, anyone who wishes to know is free to EMail me. So far two have done so. Neither of them were you.

The only thing I'm denying anyone is being further beaten upside the head with more shameless, unsolicited advertising that doesn't belong here.

Fuzzbutt17

On that note, I will sign off.

Good riddance.

And now, back to another 30 minutes of commercial free music... ;)

Csmgolf

A man with as many years of experience as Simply Q had to know what type of reaction was going to be provoked simply from being involved in forums for as long as he has.

You never know what sort of reaction you're going to get because you never know who the paranoid, overly-defensive, reactionary people are until after the fact.

All I can say is that with as many years of experience that I have, most people don't fit that description and are capable of having a calm, respectful discussion even when there is disagreement.

Not only does he have to have the last word, he has to have the last two words.

I admit, the "Good riddance" wasn't terribly good form. But I have my limits.

And as you can see, Fuzzbutt17 has trumped those measly two words with another 200 or so of his own.

Fuzzbutt17

He finally did send me a link to his website...

Because you finally sent me an EMail asking me as I had originally requested.

Mintzar

So I suggest we let this discussion die or be deleted and move on from lessons learned.

No argument here.

Agear

I have seen a lot worse. This is child's play compared to some other sites I have inhabited.

The absolute worst I've ever experienced is the rec.audio.opinion newsgroup.

Haven't visited there for some years, but it was the worst cesspool on the topic of audio I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.

Asa

SimplyQ: I know what these things might be/mean - radical subjectivism vs. scientific materialist perspectives. I want to know what YOU think/know/feel/see, RE: what "work" and "quality" IS...

Why?

I don't see that it has any particular relevance.