Nobsound springs - load range

All the calculations are a waste of time.

I always get cautious when hearing such dogmatic statements. I would rather consider starting in the dark and doing erratic trial and error on all possible permutations of changes to different variables of a system a waste of time.

I prefer to have at least a basic understanding (or sometimes a hint or theory, e.g. 50% compression for the springs) of the variables and dependencies of a system and how they probably work. It is always good to derive a starting point and some hints/directions for experiments. This saves time in my opinion. And yes, the fine tuning and verification needs to be done by ear. The learnings should then be used to adapt the theory (maybe it's then 75% compression or even different compression for different components or something totally different). This can at least help others for their systems.

Only repeating statements like "the only way is by hearing" renders this forum useless.

In a thread *** Specifically *** to discuss  Nobsound Audio products the usual suspect starts **** Pedalling **** a competitors product 🙄

Thanks for the ideas for dampening the Nobsound springs, this works great. The PTFE tape (wrapped around each spring) did not have much effect in my case (However, I tried it only on my DAC).

The dampening with the ear plugs however does magic, the effect for the money can hardly be beaten (I used the ones from 3M, 30 pairs for 10 EUR). It had similar effects on my mono blocks and on my DAC (a little less). The effect (compared to undampened Nobsound springs) is: Foremost, I get a blacker background, there is more air around instruments. Bass gets clearer and more structured, and soundstage gets deeper. In total, music gets more emotional.

I also tried another tweak: Since the springs did make some audible noise when you compress them (metal of the spring scratching against the bore in the aluminum block), I lubricated the bores with PTFE spray. This improved the Nobsounds quite a bit further.

Millercarbon is right...

in my case for eaxample,because of the structure and particular resonance of the box speakers for example, the right amount of load damping must be fine tuned BY EARS, like the springs compressive force applied by the weight load on the springs themselves...

They are in my case then , an optimal weight load of concrete around 80 pounds over my speakers, which must be tuned BY EARS in an optimization process  in relation with the speakers densities and resonant geometry and  also in relation to the precise compressive force which could be optimally applied to damp the resonance of the speakers and not only isolate from the the external vibrations...

This fine tuning is an incremental process of listening experiments distributed on a week....I first fine tuned for  the  optimal load of  concrete for the speaker box without springs...

After that adding the springs under the speakers i ADDED some "light " load playing in an optimization process near around 20gram toward 100 grams...

Tweak1 has nailed it. All the calculations are a waste of time. Even the bit about being compressed half way is just a guide or starting point. Another guide or starting point, the component should bounce very slowly, around 1 to 3 Hz. Just a guide. Only thing that really counts is the sound. There is no substitute for listening.

Most components have weight unevenly distributed. Springs don't have to be placed symmetrically. Don't have to be 4 per component, 3 might work better. Only one way to find out.

The main reason for all this trial and error tuning is Nobsound are not damped. Because of this they have a resonant frequency that changes with load. The same springs can give an extended top end, or big bottom end, or be tuned for a balanced sound. All just by changing the number of springs. Or adding weight. Mahgister does that, tunes his to within 1/4 pound.

Also the Nobsound design is more vertical isolation, with not much in other planes. That is the tradeoff for having terrific performance for cheap. 

Townshend improves on all this, with damping that improves performance as well as flexibility. Height adjusts by turning the top of the Pod. 

steakster, if you like piano on your system with springs, you should see the video where they put a piano on Pods! 

Great info thank you from a fellow flat 🌎 

I had 4 Machina Dynamica springs under everything prior to buying the Nobs. Well, I started pulling springs out late yesterday with 3 springs/ 3 Nobs under the Oppo first (decent improvement). Today I got busy starting with my LSA Voyager GaN 350 amp (OMG!), then my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 (here I only used 2 each X 3). This leaves my Core Power 1800 PLC, which currently has 4 Machina Dynamica springs.

I am totally amazed. I now have authoritative bass- mid bass, which gives the music more drive, putting a big smile on my face. CD is Lyle Lovett The Road to Ensenada. One of my torture test CDs is Jennifer Nettles Playing With Fire. It's on as I write this. Where many of the songs sounded thin, so far it sounds natural, like she's in the room .

There are a couple LSA Voyager threads, and a few guys mentioned they found it slight of bass: SURPRISE.

So thanks for this thread!!!!  I had them under all my kit, but never thought to experiment and pull springs out.

My point on 'constant force' should have been 'constant additional force' for movement of a constant size, additionally. 

With a constant rate spring the additional force (or weight) from (equidistant positions) position 3-4 should be the same as the additional required to move from 5-6, for example.

My wondering was that if the equipment (wt or force) sits in the operating range of linear motion of the linear spring will require a similar push, etc. to move it whether it sits up high or low (while remaining in range).

With a static application what changes (or not) from riding high in the range to riding low in the range. I guess those were the results from changing out numbers of springs. Interesting for sure. Thx.

@hm9001, I think we agree but that I did not state it clearly enough. If a single spring has a 4kg rate per 4cm, then from the resting point of a 1kg wt at 1cm, it would take another 1kg of weight to depress 1 more cm additional. It's what I have heard referred to as a 'constant rate' compression spring.

(Different is a 'progressive rate spring' where the rate changes, and increases as you depress. A common example was fork spring replacements in motorcycles for a nicer ride.)

Thanks very much for the above info on frequencies. It makes sense and I will work to further digest the resonant frequency issue. This sure gets me started. It will be interesting, after I do the math conversion to see where the 9.3 lb springs may get me or not.  Thanks again.

@musicaddict I try to put in some physics about spring mass systems (have to dig a little since this is long ago since I had to deal with that in my engineering study).

A spring extends or contracts in a linear relation with the force you are applying, or the other way round, the force F the spring excerts is proportional to the distance x that you are forcing the spring from its neutral (unloaded) position:

F = kx , where k is the spring constant. Your assumption that the force stays the same is wrong, the force gets higher the more you compress the spring. That is the reason why it settles in at a compression that depends on the mass you put on top.

From the formula above I can calculate k for my springs: k = F/x. Putting 2.5kg and 7mm gives me:  k = 3500 kg/s^2 (sorry for international units, but as continental European I cannot get used to imperial ;-)

Now let's calculate the resonance frequency, it is given by formula

f = 1/2Pi  sqrt(k/m), where m is the mass you put on the spring. You can see that for the same spring (or amount of springs), the frequency gets lower with higher mass. At the same time if you put two springs in parallel, you double the effective spring constant, and, with the same mass, increase the resonance frequency.

Putting the values for my DAC and spring configuration in the equation (mass ~3kg per spring), I get a resonance frequency of a little more than 5Hz, which is about what I would estimate when exciting the DAC and watching it swing.

Which resonance frequency does one want to get? The springs should decouple/isolate the component from its base, so that no vibrations are transmitted either way. The spring mass is a low pass system, it decouples above the resonance frequency, but kind of transmits vibrations below. What you want to avoid is transmitting vibrations for audio frequencies, so the resonance frequency should be below the audio band.

Is there any difference in spring tension between silver or blue end caps

The Rate I calculated for @hm9000 was right at 20lb/inch of travel for the spring measured.

Based on your specs, @ryder I calculate about 12.6lbs per one inch travel for the Rate of Compression.

As I understand it, so long as you are in the travel range (not fully compressed) then no matter how large the gap is, the force to move the object further remains the same or constant. I'd guess leave it in the middle but no one seems to have any idea why. Can the 'different audible results' be identified other than 'pre-knowing' how many springs are being used...  

I'd still love a thought on best Rate of spring to use. I ordered 100 springs .75" long with a 9.3lb/inch compression rate. These will allow a lot more travel of the component (or more soft 'floating'). 

Of course I do not know whether one wants one's equipment on a very stiff, barely springy bed, or on a highly springy and very flexible bed (assuming stability). This is the question I'd love someone to weigh in on with knowledge of resonances.

@hm9001 appreciate the confirmation. Perhaps the springs in my Nobsounds are different, which is certainly weird if that’s the case. Or perhaps there is error in my calculations. My amp weighs 28.4 kg in the spec sheet, and it takes a total of 18 springs to achieve 50% compression (~7mm gap). 28.4kg ÷ 18 = 1.6kg per spring. The gap with 1 spring and 1.6kg load is ~7mm in my system.

Ignoring the discrepancies in the compression of the springs, I presume ~50% compression of the springs is the sweet spot. Perhaps not for all systems as some have settled with 1-2mm gap (>90% compression). The type of component may be a factor too ie. DAC or CD players requiring higher spring compression while amps requiring lower compression, an assumption on my part.

I’ll be testing the 2nd set of Nobsound on the DAC and another pre/power amps soon to find out myself.

@ryder yes I have the aluminum Nobsounds. I just remeasured, the gap unloaded is ~14mm, the gap with 1 spring and 2.5kg load is ~7mm. Maybe the springs in your Nobsounds are different.

Gents,

I have found the best spring configuration after 5 days of experimentation. In brief summary, the Nobsounds have brought an appreciable improvement to my system. They are used on a Class A integrated amp, 4 footers under the components’ feet. I have another set of Nobsounds which will be tested with the DAC and pre/power amps in another system in due time.

I initially started with 6 springs on each footer. Due to the unbalanced loading of the amp which caused an uneven compression of the footers (the amp is heavier at the front), I later switched to 5 springs @ front, 4 springs @ rear. For ease of illustration, here’s the configuration I’ve tried in chronological order with their corresponding gap between the top and bottom aluminium alloy pieces;

6 springs @ front and rear (8mm gap)

5 springs @ front ; 4 springs @ rear (7mm gap) = 50% compression

4 springs @ front ; 3 springs @ rear (5mm gap)

3 springs @ front ; 2 springs @ rear (3mm gap)

I was expecting the best result with the smallest gap but that didn’t work for me. I then slowly got back up to 6/5 before finally settling with 5/4 which is the best sounding set up to my ears, in my system. Coincidentally, this configuration gave a 50% compression of the springs.

The sound quality is noticeably different with each spring set up. In brief summary, too many springs (low compression) will produce a sound that is lean and light with reduced bass weight. Too little springs (high compression) reduced the airiness and 3-dimensionality. When it sounds right, you will know it and everything just sounds great.

Impressions as follows;

6 springs @ front ; 5 springs @ rear,

- overall presentation is lean and light with certain hollowness to the sound

- bass weight is reduced as it lacks punch and drive

- slight smearing in the midrange

- percussion sounds soft and lacks bite

5 springs @ front ; 4 springs rear (best sound)

- best sound from this set up with the springs at 50% compression

- everything just sounds right as music just flows out freely from the speakers

- notes have more energy with a tube-like quality

- treble sounds airier and has better extension

- improved macrodynamics, airier and 3-dimensional sound with space between instruments

- thwack of drums and percussion all sound snappier and real

- bass weight is back with improved definition and punch

4 springs @ front ; 3 springs @ rear

3 springs @ front ; 2 spings @ rear

- reduced airiness and 3-dimensionality as the sound is slightly dull and flat

Hm9001 has some hard data and some mock it? Ugh. 

I have 16 total Nob springs and 4 of the knock off version that are smaller and have acrylic (I guess) tops/bottoms. I have been playing with spring load and trying them under multiple components. To my ears they added some color I didn't like under my Monoblocks but I think they may have improved the sound a bit under my streamer and Dac. Gonna move them in and out to see if I feel the same way over time.

In the end...its a cheap and fun thing to experiment with. 

@hm9001

I measured the compression of the springs, it takes ~2.5 kg per spring to compress it to 50%. Based on 50% compression target, this yields the following sweet spot configurations (only stable ones, total equipment weight):
- 3 units, 3 springs each: 22.5 kg
- 4 units, 3 springs each (or 3 units, 4 springs each): 30 kg - 4 units, 4 springs each: 40 kg
- 3 units, 6 springs each: 45 kg
- 3 units, 7 springs each: 52.5 kg
- 4 units, 6 springs each: 60 kg
- 4 units, 7 springs each: 70 kgLoad can be considerably higher than expected (somewhere I read about 36kg, which is presumably for 4 units).

May I ask if your Nobsounds are the aluminium alloy versions? I found that it takes 1.6 kg per spring to achieve 50% compression. Have you measured the gap between the top and bottom aluminium pieces? Without load (0% compression), the gap is 14mm. With 50% compression, the gap would be 7mm. Are you getting these same numbers?

I am a total beginner here. I only use three under components and I pick where they go for stability and ignore the existing feet. I took the feet off all my subs and only use three nobs for them as well.

So far as springs go, since this essentially is a static application as I see it (I doubt I can see electronic vibrations…), as long as the spring is compressed down into the specified ‘travel range’ it doesn’t matter how much or how little compression (or squashing) of the spring happens. The rate remains the same.

But, the Nobsound supplied springs seem to have compression rate of about 20-25lbs/inch which seems far, far too high to me, with far too little travel. Somehow I think I want a ‘pillow’ spring where there is higher travel per pound. But is this erroneous?

QUESTION?    To achieve the best isolation for components or speakers does one seek a very high compression rate, assuming the weight will compress the spring down into the ‘travel range’ of the spring chosen. What is the ideal resonance (although I cannot measure it)?

And to get to that resonance, what makes more sense, lots of low rate springs or one high rate spring?  Both must be utilized in their respective ‘travel’ ranges of of course. I am about ready to buy a slew of 9.3lb springs to have more ‘bounce’ for push downward. Is this a logical thought?  I’d totally appreciate any thoughts from the more science minded out there.  Thanks.    Mark

@ryder Thanks for posting your experimentation and results. Very informative to read.

I don't have the Townshend pods, but I have the podiums under my heavy floorstanding speakers. They use pods on all four sides that are fixed to the podium and that have a knob to adjust the preload on the springs (in a certain range, there are different pod types for coarse load adjustment). With my speakers the Townshend podiums were a huge improvement, by some factor more than with the Nobsound springs under the components.

The Townshend pods are much enhanced, as they are also rather free in the horizontal directions (Nobsound is more or less stiff there), and the Pods are also dampened in a controlled way.

Thanks for the information Noromance. It appears that the Townshend Pod is an advanced or enhanced version of isolation.

@ryder The Townshend pods rotate to change height for leveling. 

Try them without the included rubber pads too. Try them under component base not under existing feet. I’ve only used them on tube amps (and turntables) so can’t speak for solid state.

After having some experience installing the Nobsounds, I just wonder how other isolation products such as Isoacoustics Orea or Townshend Pods address uneven load distribution of components. I presume sound quality will be affected if the footers are not properly loaded to their design performance parameters.

Nobsounds installed on the preamp in my second system. Not much difference here.

Nobsounds on the power amp which made the sound worse. After I checked on the installation, I noticed the footers have different degree of compression, some smaller gap and some with larger gap. Also, few springs and top aluminum pieces are in a slant position. When I looked at the internals of the amp, I then realize why the footers at the right have higher compression - a large toroidal transformer is on the right side on the amp.

Need more time and effort to get things right here.

I’ll keep this short although I have a lot to write. I am still experimenting with the number of springs on each footer. Patience would be required for this sort of exercise as there are many possible configurations from one to full seven springs with each footer, placed under the feet or chassis of the component, 3 or 4 units for each component etc.

I’m halfway through with the experiment on the integrated amp in the main system. The Nobsounds are placed directly below the component’s feet. In the Solid Tech brochure, 1-3mm gap is said to be optimal for the best sound reproduction. However, this is not the case with my system. Initially I tried 6 springs for all four Nobsound footers and this actually gave the best sound so far, although I later found that I need to reduce one spring each from the footers at the rear due to the unbalanced weight distribution of the component which is heavier at the front. I then reduced the springs to the minimum (3 springs at front footers, 2 at rear footers) and slowly got back up to 4 springs at the front, 3 at the rear, and I’m currently at 5 springs front, 4 springs rear. The current gap with this set up is 7mm which is slightly above 50% compression.

The sound got better when the gap got larger from 2mm to the current 7mm. I’ll add one spring to each footer tomorrow to get the gap up to 8 or 9mm tomorrow. I haven’t tried the full 7 springs but I think I may skip this one.

Improvements with an optimized set up include a sound that has better clarity, air and detail. The tone of instruments sounds more illuminated with a tube like glow. There’s more air between instruments which gave an airy feel and the bass sounds clearer with better definition and control.

I’ve briefly tried the Nobsounds on my Naim amps in the second system. As I don’t have much time to experiment, I didn’t do any adjustments to the springs. When placed on the preamp, I could not hear much difference. When placed on the power amp, the sound got worse. I then realize one cannot expect instant good results by installing these without much effort.

A note is the springs may not be in a perfect vertical position especially when using minimal springs ie. 1 or 2. The springs may be slightly inclined and this can affect sound quality too.

Some thoughts based on my experience meanwhile. I have Nobsound springs under my Streamer/DAC, my heavy mono blocks (44 kg each) and my Powerfilter unit. My initial attempt with the DAC (~12.5 kg) was with 3 units with 3 springs each, as this was the least number of springs per unit that I thought was stable in itself. This results in a situation where the Nobsounds don't  compress much. The hearing result was intimidating: added sharpness, less resolution and less dynamics. 

I then tried to use less springs and ended up with 4 units with 1 spring per unit. At least for the 12kg DAC this is still stable enough. On one side (where the transformers sit), I have two springs. In total this results in a situation where all units are compressed about equally and about 50% (gap of the unit compared to uncompressed, by rough eyesight). The acoustic result is great and I kept the springs since then: Instruments appear to resonate more freely, there is more room, and bass apears to reach deeper. The number of springs corresponds nicely to the rule of thumb mentioned in the OP (2.5kg per spring). For me this is helpful to determine at least a starting point for finetuning by listening.

For the monoblocks, the result of adding the springs is very similar and synergetic to the DAC. Under the power filter, the effect is the least. I would not claim that it would withstand a blind test, but I kept the springs there for optical reasons.

I really like the ideas of dampening the springs with foam ear plugs and/or PTFE tape. I will definitely try (on my DAC first).

@ryder

I am using them without experimenting with removing springs (though thanks to this informative thread, I will-eventually) and my system sounds amazingly better than when I was using Machina Dynamica cryoed and heavy duty springs

As to experimenting, if you have any kind of blocks to replace each of the full set of 4 spring sets, removing them one at a time, will make it a lot easier.

Experiment with not putting them under the existing footers

hth

In the spring and there are few different colors to. Technicolor. :-)

I'm at 390 lbs before a 2" base a 2" bronze cap (optional) and a rear cabinet modification.

Hovering at 500 lbs. I'm going with pods in three spots. The main speakers and the  TT stand. Air Ride is sure looking good.. :-)

Regards

I'm curious about this idea of using foam ear plugs with the Nobsound springs.  I assume you roll the earplugs small and insert them in the middle of each spring?  Or is the idea to put them in the holes that don't have springs in them?

And is the theory that it further damps vibrations or that it provides lateral stiffening?

FWIW I have Nobsound springs underneath my 135 lb Moabs, 7 springs in the heavier front corners and 6 in the rear corners.  It works like a charm and even though A/B testing is impossible I would say there was some improvement in detail.

Right. Looks like there is no easy way out. I will do it by ear also. Not easy since my amp is quite heavy and it’s quite a chore to move the footers in and out.

That may explain why I felt the sound was better yesterday when the springs have less compression

Thanks for the advice.

@ryder I ignored that sheet and load by ear. Mine have less compression and sound best when they bounce. 

The gap at the front footers is 3.5mm. The rear footers are worse as they currently have a smaller 2mm gap. If the Nobsounds require a larger gap I’ll add one spring to the rear footers which will probably get the gap up to 5mm.

When I first installed the Nobsounds, they have a large gap between the top and bottom aluminium piece but a member here advised to get them as close as possible. Check out the thread at the Tech Talk section.

oldhvymec

   Appreciate the idea. It makes sense to me to try and reduce transmitted vibration in some way that does not affect the action of the spring. Of course, I also wonder what the effect might be by the manufacturer to use other alloys for the springs themselves. Maybe different metal for the center spring if used. 

A quick way to damp the Nobsound is to wrap 1 turn of PTFE plumber's tape around the outside of the space between the plates touching all the outer springs.

@ryder The springs under your Luxman are too compressed. 

No I sprayed 50 springs with Flex Seal and then used ear plugs inside the springs. It made quit a bit of difference.. It actually works perfect for lighter stuff like turntables, amps.. Speakers I notice it a lot less. The springs do it for the speakers alone. I load some gear with springs and a block of wood on top too. I load it in a slot between 2 3/4" pieces of 13 ply birch. Tinkering..

Regards

Or I can just set my entire system on a set of box springs.🤣

 I do like the idea of damping the springs. Thinking that a coat of rubberized paint that the spring can be dipped in. I know, I think too much.

@ryder

I gotcha, nice Lux. Yes, your layout is a bit different as it is an integrated, not a stand-alone amp. The shots of mine are on my virtual system page. I use the Nobsound feet under the chassis itself, not to its stock feet, but instead, adjacent to them. I should probably remove the stock feet actually.

I had been using cones prior, which did make a significant difference. The Nobsound vs the cones I was using is pretty much the same/similar actually. Perhaps a little better, but not anything that ‘turned my head’ over.

Bkeske, this is the layout of my amp. Now I realize why it’s heavier at the front. The transformers are closer to the front.

Nobsounds on my amp. I managed to reduce the gap to 3.5mm at the front. 2mm gap at the rear.

@ryder

My Belles 400A is about 60-70lb too, and three feet are fine. Now, because of my layout, there are two toroidal transformers in the middle, so that may help, not sure how yours is set-up. Regardless, the chassis in my old Belles is very strong, I have no concerns with one foot/spring in the rear. There isn’t any flex in the chassis that I can see.

Why not try one footer centered at the rear with 5 springs on it? There are manufacturers such as Esoteric that have only 3 factory installed footers under their disc players.

I’m just unsure and a little wary of the potential danger due to the 63 lbs weight of the unit. It has heavy duty cast-iron insulator feet which strongly support the component. The bottom plate at the rear middle may not be strong enough to be used as a support. Furthermore, there are air vents at the bottom which extend close to the rear of the unit. It’s a Class A amp.

If the component is less than 20 lbs I wouldn’t hesitate to use 3 footers as a support. My DAC is rather lightweight at 15 lbs, and 3 footers with 1 spring each may be too much.

I haven’t tried the second set of Nobsound on my DAC yet as I want to evaluate the performance of it on the amp first. I have to say, initial impressions have been very positive although the set up may not be fully optimized.

@noromance 

I’ve Nobsound springs under 11 pieces of equipment. All with 3 footers under each.

I just picked up 2 new sets. That is my approach too Brian. Thus, Now have three sets = 4 pieces of equipment. Was just playing around with spring counts on my Belles 400A this afternoon, which is a beast. Started with three springs initially, but added a 4th spring to each of its three today (in the center).

I’ve Nobsound springs under 11 pieces of equipment. All with 3 footers under each.

@ryder 

Why not try one footer centered at the rear with 5 springs on it? There are manufacturers such as Esoteric that have only 3 factory installed footers under their disc players.