I was at the New York HiFi Show today. It was hard to find many CD players, despite one with a price tag $40,000. Virtually every room featured turntables and tubes. Sonically, it was a definite improvement over shows in the past. Not too much sizzle and boom, although a lot of systems demonstrated big bass. Natural sounding components were the rule. There were hardly any systems affordable by the average audiophile. $100,000 rigs were not unusual. It seems demonstrators were prone to showing their best. With all the myriad of exotic stuff, I’m sorry I can’t remember too many names, but the re-introduction of sophisticated treble and bass controls and room-conditioning processors were impressive. Of course, streaming was featured in many displays. It wasn’t a large show, so it was comfortably do-able in one day.
One last thing I can say with confidence regarding the OHMs is that they are most responsive to what is fed them and will sound radically different case by case. So there is a chance that if you ever get to hear them again, the sound would be much different, hopefully for the better.
@willemj, as you can see, folks would appreciate you reposting. Of course, who saves these things? And you may feel it more trouble than anything else.
I can reiterate, he said NOTHING warranting moderation or removal of the post. Mostly talked from a common sensical approach to audio, closer to the objectivist camp than a lot of folks here. There were things I didn't agree with, mostly regarding tube amplification's inferiority, as well as things I don't get into dogmatic / philosophical disagreements with others over like "snake oil" audio components / products / tweaks. But overall, I felt it interesting, insightful, intelligent, and most definitely, welcome.
Color and conversation make the world go 'round, and we all benefit from the perspectives of many, not few. And I can't believe I'm the only person who feels that way
can you please send me the text via PM of your response concerning business economics theory? I am interested in reading other views of business theory. Thank you.
willemj... I posted an extended
economic analysis of the audio market, with an explanation for the
prominence of snake oil products, based on mainstream business
economics theory. It was removed by a moderator. For me such censorship is the end of the line.
It may have simply been deleted because it was so far off-topic. Why not try posting it in a new thread, or try to find a thread where it would be more on-topic.
@willemj, I happened to see it prior to removal. Agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it. But felt it added greatly to the discussion here, and feeling baffled as to what motivated removal. Stifling good, honest opinion that does not contain profanity, business or other impropriety, or threatens harm yields bad results for all of us. Definitely not healthy in terms of discourse or pushing the hobby forward
For those who wonder what these are responses to, I posted an extended economic analysis of the audio market, with an explanation for the prominence of snake oil products, based on mainstream business economics theory. It was removed by a moderator. For me such censorship is the end of the line. Farewell.
Today 99% of the public does not care about better sound quality (Hi Fidelity). And only the 1% can afford the outrageous prices of the so-called "Hi End" gear. When I attended the NYC shows in 1976 - '80 the attendees were predominantly middle-class and lines were out the door waiting to get in!
willemj, OK, you’ve convinced me! The biggest market must be the one with the best sound. Or at least the one with sound just as good as high end sound. Why else would it be so popular? I did not realize there were so many connoisseurs of good sound. 😃 Of course, your whole screed begs the age-old and *important question* - can a tweaked Mid Fi system beat an untweaked High End System?
Addendum: I hate to judge too quickly but this particular post of yours appears to set the stage for a philosophical war between economics and physics. 😦
Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts we do artificial atoms right!
This is is my first post on this forum. I’m just getting back into the hobby after a long hiatus. I got my first stereo at 13, which was an aspiration for kids my age. I am a consumer researcher by profession helping companies to understand and improve their customer journeys (their experiences with products and services from awareness through purchase and use). High end audio has to be one of the most confusing and overwhelming categories I’ve ever encountered. It puts other notorious consumer categories to shame in terms of the difficulty of making a confident choice of gear. And, the prices have skyrocketed since I bought my last system 20 years ago. It’s no wonder the “hobby” is not expanding its audience beyond the already initiated. The brands need to seriously re-think the way they engage and support potential customers across the journey. To me the current model is not working.
In Volti Audio's newsletter from last years show (volume 37) , Greg Robert's says he will never go to NY as long as the Chester Group is putting on the show.
I was at the show on Sunday and was disappointed, although not surprised, by the small number of exhibitors and rooms. Evidently the high cost of staging a show in NYC is a major obstacle to attracting many manufacturers and retailers, and even many mainstays of the past several shows were absent this year. That being said, I thought there were several good sounding rooms, including Audio Note, LTA/Rethm, Triangle Art/Egglestonworks, Pure Audio Project, Alta Audio, AVM/Harbeth, and Luxman/Triangle, which made it a worthwhile experience for me...
I also attended the NY AV show last weekend. Bought a 3 day ticket, booked a hotel and drove up from South Jersey. Probably the biggest waste of time and money I can remember. I took me about three hours to hit every room. The sound was generally mediocre (except for the Legacy and the Martin Logan rooms) and the number of exhibitors was small. I always hope tp purchase a little something (LPs or budget equipment) at a “show marketplace” but even that was limited to two or three exhibitors. Even the Westchester, NY show from several year ago was better.
I don’t think I’ll be returning to the NY show as long as this group is running it. How can you have a high-end audio show in Manhattan that is smaller and less interesting than other shows in smaller venues?
I always felt that it was cost prohibitive for me to travel to Denver or Chicago to attend the better shows, but I may have to re-think that after this.
BTW, I like Whart’s idea of a NY Audio Day, which would be great for consumers and increase traffic into the stores. A nice spring weekend would be great! (NY was freezing last weekend!!!!)
trelja, thanks....*S* I'll agree with ML's...nice units. I've a soft spot for esl's, since in some ways they gave rise to ribbons and AMT's. I'm a dipole fanboy as well as 'things omni'...and mapman and I do share an appreciation for Ohms. I'm just an extremist in terms of that 'breed' of driver, which some may realize or have noted...;)
I'd be surprised if Ohm didn't make an appearance at a NY, NY audio show, being a 'local' after all. And, understood, omnis are an acquired taste and respond to attention paid to 'upstream' components and their 'environment'...
Gee, where have we noticed that, elsewhere...and with what....;)
Cambridge...*G*, well, again, another 'local', not as exciting or enthralling as others, but... Solid stuff, been around awhile, and when a show is so anemic as this one seemed to be, some additional 'flesh on the bones' was probably welcomed by the promoters...
Rethm Bhaava driven by Linear Tube Audio ZOTL amplifier. BEST OF SHOW. Luscious, full, coherent, and beautiful sound. Perhaps only let down by the Aqua CD player front end. Considering this amplifier and loudspeaker combination comes in at just $6550, wonderful sound comes in much more affordably than we normally get told about
Trio loudspeakers driven by the Pass Labs Integrated. Would have loved to also hear them with the 2A3 amplifier they were saving for later
Martin Logan
Cambridge Audio. As we know from the first listing, price does not always correlate with sonic quality
Perhaps, I left a room off, but you can consider any not listed above to have sounded poor or worse
I'd like to 'hear' some additional commentary from any who were actually present for demos or at least visited the space...good, bad, or indifferent.
Not being able to attend any of these major (or minor) shows does force one to depend on the observations of others, 'omni fans' or no... And 'hotel room venues' tend to more 'typical and average' in their presentation, as opposed to the potentially 'highly massaged' audiophile space... or even a decent showroom...
Thoughts and observations, please, and Thank You. *S*
Interesting. The OHMs I have never break a sweat no matter how much power is thrown at them. More so than most any other speaker their size I’d say.
Something was awry it sounds like but your guess what is as good as mine. I’ve never heard anything close to what you describe.
What you describe sounds like an amp clipping but I would not expect that with the 100w/ch amp at most volumes in a smaller room. Possible though. I would not run any OHMs with any less than that in most cases for best results at higher volume. I use high current 500 w/ch BEl Canto ref1000m amps with my similar size OHM 100s. A bit of overkill perhaps but the speakers never complain. My larger 5s love all 500 w/ch.
I also run them off a 60 w/ch BEl Canto C5i integrated. That definitiely has some volume limits but should have no problem with volumes most people would employ regularly.
The BEl Canto Class D amps essentially soft clip so sonic effects of clipping are not generally outright offensive, just limiting in dynamics.
THey did use a receiver although a very well reviewed one. Chances are the current delivery is not as good as it might be even with 100w/ch with a receiver versus separates. They used the Outlaw receiver because it was well reviewed recently in Stereophile according to the post on the OHM website about the show. THat might be a typical Class A/B amp that hard clips and clearly distorts when pushed too hard.
Any idea who was running the room when you were there? It would surprise me if John Strohbeen would allow what you describe if it were him. THere were others from OHM at the show as well according to the article on the web site.
@mapman you're right. So far, I've read nothing but praise for the room.
During the time I spent at the show, playing the material they did, at the volumes they did, the Ohm room won my title for worst sound of the show. And the distance between that and second place is more than I can put into words. I even visited again after a while just to see if anything had changed. Often, as in the Audio Note room, among others, you catch them at a bad moment, and one that doesn't properly convey the capability of a component. I feel such a situation deserves a second listen. As stated, I hope this sound represented some sort of anomaly, as no one could consider that high fidelity, or so I hope.
Both times I listened, the Ohm speakers played at a (not all that high) volume that completely overwhelmed the drivers. The best description I can use is how a television or clock radio sounds when my family turns it way up so they can listen 3 rooms away. Distortion attained a level I've not heard in a high-end audio loudspeaker in a very, very long time at those volumes. Within that, low frequency extension didn't seem a heck of a lot better than the aforementioned non-audiophile implementations. This coming from someone who's familiar with a properly set up pair of Ohm A that seem to go all the way down to DC.
What am I comparing it to? Just 40+ years of hearing countless audio components in a variety of settings. If that wasn't what you were asking, could you rephrase the question, please?
@mapman the Ohm room disappointed me more than any other. Honestly, if what they displayed represents the product accurately, I cannot even consider these speakers to offer anything approaching high fidelity.
Now, it's not that I don't consider myself an Ohm supporter. My friend has one of the few (11?) pairs of Walsh A, that Lincoln Walsh began putting together prior to his sudden and untimely death. My friend is a well known loudspeaker magician, and got the speaker working as he felt it should. I've been around more speakers than I can count, and these are the single most impressive loudspeaker I've encountered. In fact, when he illustrates how the speaker works in comparison to everything else, every other loudspeaker design doesn't seem to have a prayer. Now, that's all well and good, but the important and obvious question is how do they sound? Well, it's the only loudspeaker that I've experienced that can take hold of your insides and literally scare you to death. And going up from the low frequencies, everything sounds as good as it gets.
For what it's worth, I found a couple of rooms that offered what I considered good sound, despite their usual affordability, Cambridge among them
EBM totally agreed Chester sucks. They said they had some sponership on WBGO I wonder what that meant.
Seeing the same old faces is both great and horrifying. One person commented that they say no one under 40 yikes!
The industry is doing a piss poor job of educating the public that hey there is world beyond Sonos and Bose.
Whart I disagree, hifi was in the 50, 60,70 and to some extent the 80's and 90's was everywhere.
When I was growing up, kids had stereos in their rooms and a house had a couple of TV's people listened to music.
Now between the internet, and a new generation of kids that listen to music through crappy headphones and think this is great this is why we are makinng new audiophiles. combine this with cutting of music eduction in high school's leads to where we are.
Did you see CNN, New York Times, Forbes, Business insider? Did you see underwriting with the local progressive music stations, WFMU, WFUV?
Nope and Nope, High end audio is a heavily American industry that most people if given a change introduction might be interested in moving to some kind of better system.
Saying the show was good in anyway is a sad joke.It had no publicity except for 1 free line in the Stereophile club section it was put on by a sad very cheap company that has no idea how to put on a good show.
@audiotroy Dave, leaving aside the costs and challenges of the typical hotel show, the niche nature of quality audio has long been an issue--the people who attend are typically people already engaged; the difficulty of introducing "normal citizens" to the hobby has existed as long as I have been involved in the hobby (which is pretty long). Add to that- hi-fi is not an aspirational product -- I can see "guys" going to a car show to lust after some high priced iron (well, now it’s mostly plastic) as a "thing to do" but hi-fi? I think the checklist of essentials that included a good stereo went out with the waterbed. This has been the challenge of the industry forever- and I don’t think it is necessarily linked to high prices (by audiophile standards). Someone not terribly interested in the field isn’t going to find a 5k total system price attractive-- even though that would seem to be budget pricing- when they can buy some pod with streaming and a few cheap little better than desk top speakers for what? A grand or less? (Apple Store type stuff). People will spend that money on a phone, though..
Guys as a dealer participating at this and other shows here is some perspective.
The show was small
Part of the problem is the lack of business being generated and the high costs to do a show.
Show promoters are doing a terrible job of bringing notice to the non audiophiles
Imagine a show with thousands of people who dont know about hi end audio were suddenly introduced to the experience that we take for granted.
Did you see coverage by the new york times or forbes or local papers?
High end audio is like a great secret that most people dont know about.
As per affordable the Legacy Calibres wtth built in amps were $6700 add a streamer with volume and you got a killer rig for under $9k okay not cheap but still reachable and the baby Legacys sounded fantastic.
A full Technics set up is about 5k
Cambridge Audio was showing
$1299 floorstanders and $599 monitors With a $899 amp.
So there were actually a number of great setups that were affordable.
NYC has gotta be the worst case scenario for seismic vibration, you know, what with the traffic, the subway, and the pedestrians! One imagines the power grid in NYC and RFI are not without issues. 😀It’s no wonder systems sound horrible in NYC. Las Vegas is not exactly the Fortress of Solitude when it comes to seismic vibration. It would be pretty much a fool's errand to try to set up a HiFi system in either city and expect very much.
It seems that a city like NY, which still has quite a few dealers in Manhattan, could do a traveling show among the various dealers- call it NY Audio Day. The dealers batten down the hatches, set up a couple systems, one primo, one reasonably priced, and cooperatively promote this to occur at their various store locations. They save on the cost of show overhead, entry fees, etc., have better control over the rooms, and draw traffic. You could have 6 or 8 dealers participating and make it worthwhile. Yeah, it's a bit of schlepping for the show goers, but if the dealers stepped up, used it as an opportunity to show off what they are capable of, got some of the manufacturers to come in to hang out and talk with show attendees (not a problem since most dealers feature different high end brands), you could have something that potentially beats the usual hotel room hi-fi show. Granted, it may not have all the latest, never before seen gear that is introduced at shows like Munich, but it is an alternative. I rarely attend shows any more, and rarely go to retail shops. But, if I wanted to hear or see something special, I'd probably make an appointment with a dealer and get the time a buyer deserves for the spendy stuff. What's the downside for the dealers?
I agree, noromance. It would have been nice to see some equipment we could actually afford and add to our systems.
mgolpoor, Your right. Why not set realistic prices and sell more product? What’s the point of appealing to a small percentage of attendees? $20,000 speakers need components of similar price to match
This show was a big joke 27 rooms most good shows have 27 rooms on 1 floor.It was a cheap show by an even cheaper company they should have stayed home a real turkey!!!!!!
I have a different opinion. I think the Luxman / triangle room was excellent. The Harbeth/AVM very good sound. The triangle art stunning. It's true that no much low end was represented but did not make the show the worst for affordability matters. I still can appreciate good audio and no neccesarily need to own it. Kind regards
@mgolpoor, "One of the worst and most boring shows I have ever been to."
You're absolutely right. Second worst show I've attended. Eclipsed only by the first show this group put on when they returned to NYC in the early part of this decade.
Both quantity and quality of the rooms were about as low as things get. All but a few rooms didn't have it together, at all, sonically
One of the worst and most boring shows I have ever been to. I agree with the above comments about what was being shown but there lies the problem with the industry as the whole, they are not catering for the ordinary people with a reasonable budget. All these companies have forgotten that it is easy to design and produce a CD player that costs $40,000 which sounds good. Its not so easy to design one that sounds good and costs $2,000. That is why that the room which impressed me most was Technics with ’Real world’ prices for Turntables and a pair of stand mount speaker that could really sing for $1,700 ! Unfortunately manufacturers prefer to sell 5 items at $100,000 each instead of 500 items at $1,000 each. But that business model does not serve someone who has a budget of $15-20K for a complete system who should really be able to put together a very decent system.
There were plenty of CD players at the NYC show on Friday. In fact, I wondered about so many rooms using them en route to putting the best sound forward
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