New preamp or up grade my cartridge and or phono amp?

Add on question. I understand that my AV preamp is a kind of jack of all trades unit what I don't really understand how a preamp would change anything if I'm using the reference mode on my AV preamp?

Preamps matter, and they matter a lot.  They are often called the heart of a system for a reason, so dismiss it at your own risk.  A good stereo preamp should significantly outperform your prepro in any mode and would probably be the first thing I’d add/upgrade in your system.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

@soix

+1

Given your current selection, I would start with a good quality preamp, then move to a better phonostage.

It depends on where you want to go, how far? You are in the process of "evolving" your system. The only wear item is the cartridge. You have to replace them once in a while. If your goal is to build a reference system then make big steps when you can afford them. Do not waste money on little steps if they are not at the final level you wish to achieve. I would do turntable, tonearm and cartridge as a package. If you are short money compromise on the cartridge as that will need replacing in the future anyway. A good table and Arm will last many decades. In your situation I would not buy a preamp. I would get a phono stage at the quality of your final system and plug that into your Emotiva. Equipment that represents the highest value would be the Channel D Lino C phono stage, the Sota Sapphire Turntable, The Kuzma 4 Point 9 tonearm and the Soundsmith Sussurro Gold cartridge. 

I’m not a Rega fan but my one cent contribution would be that it’s the Emotiva that is holding your system back.  Junk that, get a proper set of separates, and then scrap the Rega stuff when funds allow 

WAF means, EVERYTHING stays in the large family room, unless I put a 2 CH system in a small 9X9 bedroom. So the preamp would have to have a HT bypass.  But I'm still kind of stuck on why the preamp is so important if I'm using the "Reference Mode" which is supposed to be a straight shot through. Unless it isn't. Not sure I can justify more than $3K extra for this upgrade. I'm about to retire and would prefer to stay married through this process(as in it wouldn't be any fun enjoying a really nice system in a studio apt.) 😅

What are you trying to achieve with any proposed "upgrade"?  The Rega setup you have is very balanced and a good performer.  To do significantly better would require a substantial investment.  But that would then trigger a new preamp and probably new loudspeakers plus a new power amplifier.  At that point you'd have to get acoustic treatments and power conditioners.  And don't forget cables!  Like I said, your existing analog setup is very balanced.

I personally would prefer a small dedicated audio room for my system than the enormous compromises made for a common room. Some of the most amazing systems I have heard have been in tiny rooms. The great thing is that you can purchase higher quality gear of lower output and with room treatments and setup achieve MUCH better sound in a small dedicated room.

Upgrading the preamp is good advice, and you won’t understand why until you hear one that is significantly better than the one that you have. I.e. avoid a lateral move. I vote for the small dedicated room, with a carefully selected system it can be really good. 

But I'm still kind of stuck on why the preamp is so important if I'm using the "Reference Mode" which is supposed to be a straight shot through. Unless it isn't.

It isn’t.  A passive preamp is closer to what you’re describing (although even those have an impact on sound), and as your prepro is active it’s not even close to a “straight shot through.”  The preamp is amplifying a small signal, which is why it can have a significant impact on the sound that’s ultimately produced, and many (me included) feel the preamp can make an even bigger overall impact on system performance than an amp although this can be very system dependent.  Further, prepros are obviously multifunctional and most are designed to meet an aggressive price point, and the necessary result is that critical/expensive parts (power supplies, volume control, etc.) are compromised to meet aggressive cost constraints.  This is why your $2500 prepro costs the same as or much less than many dedicated stereo preamps despite including all the multichannel, digital, and video processing as well.  I’d guess if all the added functionality were stripped out of your prepro and was sold as a stereo pre it’d cost closer to $1500, which is fairly inexpensive especially as your pre is purported to be fully balanced that nearly doubles the parts required versus a single-ended design.  So while using “Reference Mode” may deactivate unnecessary functions for pure stereo listening and reduce added noise/circuitry to some degree, the signal is still flowing through cheaper electronics than it would through a comparably-priced dedicated stereo preamp, and that makes a big difference.  Hope this provides some helpful info as to why “Reference Mode” doesn’t provide a get outta jail free card as far as preamps go.

ghdprentice/zlone. I understand what you are saying. Though I have a friend who went that route and his listening room wound up isolating him from the rest of the household. He then integrated his 2CH system into the family room HT system. His wife is now listening to more music. 

onhwy61- Your advice struck home, I really do like the sound of my system I believe for the money the Rega components play way above their price point. That being said I will have a few thousand to spend on my system as a retirement present. Right now I’m leaning toward upgrading my cartridge and phono amp or trying something like a Rogue preamp either a new RP-1 or used RP-5. Would either of these be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Emotiva in Reference Mode? Or is there something else out there that would work (thought about the Parasound Hint P6 but that’s also a kind jack of all things). I really don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of room treatments, new cables, new speakers etc. So I’ll go with either a preamp with HT bypass capabilities or upgrading the phono cart and phono amp. If I’m lucky😇 maybe both

On a side note. With my friend moving his system out to the family room, not only has his wife started to enjoy listening to music more. He has had company over, seen his turntable and asked do albums really sound better. After playing albums and the same tunes digitally (either cd's or downloads), some agreed some didn’t. But ALL were impressed with how good a good system makes the music they like sound. Some have invested thousands of dollars in systems to replace their Sonus or Bluetooth speakers they THOUGHT sounded perfectly fine. One even became a full blown Audiophile with the investment of several tens of thousands of $ that entailed. I’m guessing none of that would have happened if his system was isolated in a spare bedroom(more people getting into our little hobby can’t be a bad thing). But I'm sure for some people that GREAT sounding system in a small room is EXACTLY what they want and or need, it just isn’t going to work for me.

Thanks for the info soix. Any suggestions on a good preamp with HT capabilities other than the Rogue RP-1 or RP-5. I’m thinking the Parasound Hint P6 would put me in the circumstances as the Emotiva just w/out the HT stuff

I think your cartridge and TT are the best part of your system by far.

My Rega P3 with a tube preamp sounds better than anything I tried - and I tried a lot of inexpensive approaches.

And I 100% agree with you about the living room/sharing the wealth vs small room. I couldn't do a small dedicated room for many reasons. 

As with upgrading any audio component, which preamp would be driven primarily by what improvements you’re looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you.  Bigger 3D soundstage, better tonality, etc. would be the kinds of things you should identify that you’re looking for and then go from there.  Rogue is actually interesting because it’s a neutral sounding tube pre yet still likely sounds quite a bit different from your Emotiva, and I believe Rogue is one of the few tube pre manufacturers that disables the tubes when using the HT bypass, which is really nice when you’re just watching movies or TV.  Anyway, if you can clarify more what you’re looking for you’ll get several good recommendations here. 

OP, “…Though I have a friend who went that route and his listening room wound up isolating him from the rest of the household.”

That sounds like a fantastic advantage! That is worth it by itself. 😊 oh, sorry, most audiophiles are recluses… typically the household doesn’t join in, but tell you to turn that off or put on the news. My partner is happy she can send me to my audio room and not subject her to it. She loves music, and comes down to listen for about ten minutes every decade. But there are exceptions.

If this is a step towards a long term hi-end system then I would get the highest quality tube preamp I could afford. This pieces is the heart of the system. From there you can work on source issues. The cartridge is certainly a key piece if your focus is vinyl. I would not spend money adding a better arm to the Rega table. You did not mention speakers. You must be happy with them. They are the most critical part of the chain. 

These days, what we call a preamplifier is a linestage with a bunch of selectable inputs and optionally a balance, phase, or mono control. The linestage usually adds only a little gain to its input signal, which emanates from a phono stage, CDP, or other high level source. In fact, the linestage needs an attenuator to throw away excessive gain from input sources. If the linestage is passive it adds no gain at all. I think it’s no trick to make a very low distortion, wide bandwidth linestage, and linestages need not be hyper-expensive. In fact, the most important part of a linestage is a high quality attenuator.

I think it’s no trick to make a very low distortion, wide bandwidth linestage, and linestages need not be hyper-expensive.

Says the guy with a >$10k preamp, ehem.

@soix  i’m glad you mentioned the Rogue pre-amplifier. I have a down payment on the Rogue Cronos integrated M3, and intend to hook up an Ares M Il phono pre to the Cronos auxiliary.  This will give me an all tube system and allow me to hook up a second turntable to the Cronos phono input. Do you see any shortcomings going this route? I’m a straight vinyl guy, when I sold my car I stopped buying CD’s

After I get squared away with all the accessories I need for this system I’ll start thinking about streaming. Thank you for any input or suggestions you may make

@groovey I’ve only used the hybrid Rogue Medusa amp in my system so can’t opine much, but the Cronos gets great reviews so it’s a good bet you’re gonna be happy, and Rogue’s customer service is outstanding.  Unfortunately I know precisely zero about the Ares (or the Cronos’ phono section), but my strongest recommendation would be to start streaming asap with Qobuz or Tidal — it’ll literally change your life and your only regret will be that you didn’t start years ago.  Sorry I don’t have more for ya and hope all works out well with the new Rogue!

Streaming is actually something I am not interested in. I have about 850 albums on my music server. I've tried Tidal and Qobuz and barely used either one, no interest in checking out new music (I NEVER listen to the radio I have all the music I like). That being said a friend turned me to a group called "Lake Street Dive", check them out they are great(he struck out on other new stuff he wanted me to try). I even got rid of about half of my albums, I owned about 700, going through them one day I realized I was NEVER going to listen to the ones I got rid of. Now I have the ones I know I'm going to listen to(I'm one of those guys at the restaurant that orders the same thing because that's what I like).

How about an integrated with a HT pass thru?

Soix, ehem. I don’t own a discrete linestage. All my preamplifiers contain phono sections. For that combo , you pay more. And none of them ( I have 3) cost me more than $4K, all purchased second hand.

I'm probably going to go with a Rogue RP-1 and Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC. 

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and preamp info 

I purchased a Rogue RP-1 (thanks Mike/chedga, great guy would buy from him anytime, he even included a pair of Philco 1956 NOS tubes-haven’t tried them yet), and borrowed a Schiit Bifrost 1. Loving my 2 channel audio even more. My daughter got me the Dan Fogelberg Carnegie Hall CD. I’m not a huge fan of artist playing solo and this CD  wasn’t any different. Until I played it with the RP-1 WHAT A DIFFERENCE, will probably buy the LP. Same with LP's, tried the RP-1 phono amp using a Rega P6 with Ania MC cartridge can’t say how it sounded because there was hum I couldn’t get rid of. Went back to using the Rega MCFONO phono amp, no hum sounded GREAT. Not sure I’m going to go down the tube rolling rabbit hole or if I’ll upgrade the Bifrost to a newer model, probably going to buy the one I’m borrowing from my friend, if he’s interested in selling. Big thanks to “soix” for the dedicated preamp explanation.

I’ve now spent several months with the Rogue also added a Topping D90SE DAC (got a good price from a friend). Thanks everyone for the advice and suggestions especially soix the explanation about passive preamps really helped. Anyone have any advice on how to hook up the subwoofer, I have a SVS SB3000 sub. My understanding is that to take full advantage of the LFE signal during movies I have to run a cable from the XMC-1 sub out to the LFE input of my sub. But then I can’t use the sub for 2ch listening. I’ve talked to Rogue they say I can run cables from the 2nd output of the Rogue to the sub line level inputs (disconnect the LFE cable) and when the Rogue is in HT bypass mode, it will pass the low level signal from the XMC to the sub. But will this signal be a true LFE signal (is there even such a thing?). My front speakers are powered with a 350 watt sub in each. Before I got the SVS sub I used them as dual subs worked well enough but I like the SVS sub much better. The only other solution I can think of is run both cables and unplug and plug in the ones I need depending on if I’m watching Movies/TV or listening to music. Or is there another option? One last thing now that I’ve heard the difference between the Emotiva XMC-1and the Rogue. I may have to do some contract work after retirement to finance more upgrades