What sub are you using with the Harbeths?
Never-ending Speaker Journey ($1,000 budget)
Like everyone here I've spent years tinkering with different setups, but I'm hoping to be happy once and for all with a final speaker purchase--wish me luck!
Short background: At the age of 14 I purchased a kenwood receiver and HUGE cerwin vega AT12 3-way speakers (12" woofer). At the time I listened primarily Rap music. I LOVED my system. A decade later I had a Denon receiver and bought some Dynaudio Audience 50 bookshelfs (7" woofer). I felt a massive step up in quality of sound. I could hear piano hammers moving, fingers sliding on guitar strings, drum sticks being set down, every rasp in female voice. I listed to a lot of pop and rock music (Bjork, Tori Amos, Cure, Nirvana). In both of these instances I was enamored with my stereo. Yes, I realize these are fairly low-fi by some standards on this website.
Fast forward: I've been trying everything to gain that same 'awe' and impressive sound. I've had the following:
Low end speakers: Boston Acoustics A25 (boring, no detail), Pioneer LS22 (had a 'hall' effect), Mordant Short Aviano (harsh, bright), Def Tech (harsh, bright)
Better Models:
* Wharfedale Denton-- Nice, but not refined. Kind of lazy or blurry, no decay in sounds. GREAT bass, sounded overall very nice.
* Boston Acoustics E60--super bright, possibly due to the 60hz lower end.
* Dynaudio Audience 50-by far my favorite speaker I've owned, but after ten years with it my ears became sensetive and it started sounding harsh/bright.
* Harbeth P3ESR--amazing speaker, but couldn't integrate with my subwoofer to create a cohesive sound, possibly due to the 75hz lower end.
There are probably five or size models I'm leaving out too (Mission, PSB, etc). So here's what I've learned....
(1) I listen to mostly Rock and Pop (Prince, Arctic Monkeys, White Stripes, Tool, Cure, Tori Amos, Cat Stevens, Fleetwood Mac).
(2) I'm 'super' sensetive to bright/harsh speakers (at least half of the pairs I've owned were sold due to being fatiguing)
(3) I need bass. Speakers I've owned that cut-off above 60hz just sound thin, or 'missing something' to me. I have never been skilled enough to integrate a subwoofer to work well with such a speaker.
(4) I love resolution and imaging. Love hearing things in my speakers that I've only heard before in headphones (I realize this conflicts with #2 above).
(5) I would prioritize vocals, realistic piano, then mid bass (realistic drums).
(6) None of the lower end ($400-ish) speakers made me happy. Typically a model around $1000-$2000 has worked.
I have a decent amp, Parasound 2125 (150W@8ohms, 225W@4ohms). I have decent sources (NAD CD player, Technics turntable). The room is about 20x12 and I sit about 10 feet from the right and 15 feet from the left speaker. They would sit about ten inches from the wall (I can pull them more into the room for critical listening, but the overall setup is fairly up against a wall).
So... based on my history I am considering Dynaudio Focus 140/160, Kef R300 (or maybe Q300), Swan Songbird, Ascend Sierra... I believe I'm more a fan of the details and bass of Dynaudio than the sweet mid-range of the Harbeth (I'm likely in the analytical camp). Of course I don't want a midrange that sounds like a sheet is thrown over it either. Vocals are VERY important.
So for Rock and Pop... punchy bass (but not bloated)...amazing details in vocals.. and at least reaching 50hz (or lower) what would you recommend? I am about to sell the Harbeth P3ESRs because as much as I love them I can't integrate the sub with the 75hz lower end.
Detailed and analytical, without being harsh is the key. Maybe some brands use a sweet/easy tweeter, but pair it with a revealing midrange?
Or do I say screw-it and just get some cheapie Cerwin Vegas :)
Short background: At the age of 14 I purchased a kenwood receiver and HUGE cerwin vega AT12 3-way speakers (12" woofer). At the time I listened primarily Rap music. I LOVED my system. A decade later I had a Denon receiver and bought some Dynaudio Audience 50 bookshelfs (7" woofer). I felt a massive step up in quality of sound. I could hear piano hammers moving, fingers sliding on guitar strings, drum sticks being set down, every rasp in female voice. I listed to a lot of pop and rock music (Bjork, Tori Amos, Cure, Nirvana). In both of these instances I was enamored with my stereo. Yes, I realize these are fairly low-fi by some standards on this website.
Fast forward: I've been trying everything to gain that same 'awe' and impressive sound. I've had the following:
Low end speakers: Boston Acoustics A25 (boring, no detail), Pioneer LS22 (had a 'hall' effect), Mordant Short Aviano (harsh, bright), Def Tech (harsh, bright)
Better Models:
* Wharfedale Denton-- Nice, but not refined. Kind of lazy or blurry, no decay in sounds. GREAT bass, sounded overall very nice.
* Boston Acoustics E60--super bright, possibly due to the 60hz lower end.
* Dynaudio Audience 50-by far my favorite speaker I've owned, but after ten years with it my ears became sensetive and it started sounding harsh/bright.
* Harbeth P3ESR--amazing speaker, but couldn't integrate with my subwoofer to create a cohesive sound, possibly due to the 75hz lower end.
There are probably five or size models I'm leaving out too (Mission, PSB, etc). So here's what I've learned....
(1) I listen to mostly Rock and Pop (Prince, Arctic Monkeys, White Stripes, Tool, Cure, Tori Amos, Cat Stevens, Fleetwood Mac).
(2) I'm 'super' sensetive to bright/harsh speakers (at least half of the pairs I've owned were sold due to being fatiguing)
(3) I need bass. Speakers I've owned that cut-off above 60hz just sound thin, or 'missing something' to me. I have never been skilled enough to integrate a subwoofer to work well with such a speaker.
(4) I love resolution and imaging. Love hearing things in my speakers that I've only heard before in headphones (I realize this conflicts with #2 above).
(5) I would prioritize vocals, realistic piano, then mid bass (realistic drums).
(6) None of the lower end ($400-ish) speakers made me happy. Typically a model around $1000-$2000 has worked.
I have a decent amp, Parasound 2125 (150W@8ohms, 225W@4ohms). I have decent sources (NAD CD player, Technics turntable). The room is about 20x12 and I sit about 10 feet from the right and 15 feet from the left speaker. They would sit about ten inches from the wall (I can pull them more into the room for critical listening, but the overall setup is fairly up against a wall).
So... based on my history I am considering Dynaudio Focus 140/160, Kef R300 (or maybe Q300), Swan Songbird, Ascend Sierra... I believe I'm more a fan of the details and bass of Dynaudio than the sweet mid-range of the Harbeth (I'm likely in the analytical camp). Of course I don't want a midrange that sounds like a sheet is thrown over it either. Vocals are VERY important.
So for Rock and Pop... punchy bass (but not bloated)...amazing details in vocals.. and at least reaching 50hz (or lower) what would you recommend? I am about to sell the Harbeth P3ESRs because as much as I love them I can't integrate the sub with the 75hz lower end.
Detailed and analytical, without being harsh is the key. Maybe some brands use a sweet/easy tweeter, but pair it with a revealing midrange?
Or do I say screw-it and just get some cheapie Cerwin Vegas :)
13 responses Add your response
Try the Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitors. RAAL tweeter with a high-end scan-speak woofer, F3 of 45hz, and only $1,150/pair. The RAAL ribbon gives you plenty of detail and ‘air’ without ever sounding harsh, and the scan-speak woofer should be adept at midrange clarity. If if you decide you’re willing to break the bank and take things to the next level check out the Salk Song3A tower or Selah Audio Tempesta standmount, both in the mid $3K range, which take the high end woofer + RAAL route and add a ceramic Accuton dedicated midrange to the mix. |
I suggest that you should keep the Harbeths and get this JL subwoofer. It is a sealed sub and blends perfect with my P3's. It does not have a high pass filter so you run the Harbeths full range. That ported sub that you are using is more for a home theater type of setup! http://www.jlaudio.com/d110-ash-home-audio-dominion-powered-subwoofers-96283 |
I'm sort of new to the whole HiFi game as well. I've always loved music and share similar tastes to what you have mentioned. I have auditioned a pair of Revel M106s and they rocked. Great clean low end and very crisp, but not too bright, highs. They are a little above your price but if you can find a preowned set they are great. I have a set of Nola Boxers. Same deal as the Revels. They don't have quite the punch on the low end but handle rock really well, very crisp highs without being too bright and enough clarity to clearly differentiate the different instruments in a song. They also have a higher sensitivity than the Revels so you don't need as much power to make them sing. I am actually looking to sell my Nolas if it is something that interests you. Good luck with your search and I understand your dilemma. There are just too many great choices out there. Cheers |
Funny, I was just about to recommend Nola Boxers as they have great mids and not overly bright highs. Also Joseph Audio RM7si IIs another great speaker. Both can be found on hifishark for a little over your price range. I'd think the Revels might be a little too revealing up top given the other speakers the OP found to be too bright. Agree with @tute that a speaker with the super smooth Raal ribbon tweeter would be well worth a look if you can find one near your price point. Also agree with @yogiboy that the $500 sub is probably the issue with bass integration rather than the $2200 monitors -- they're pretty flat to 80Hz, which should be workable. Sub placement and lack of integration software/hardware likely not helping either. That said, the P3ESRs are not the speaker I'd choose if I'm mainly listening to pop rock music as they do have their volume limits. Best of luck. |
Another option to better integrate a subwoofer and to tame the peakiness in some speakers that makes them sound fatiguing would be to add room correction and a true subwoofer crossover. The MiniDSP DDRC-24 is only $450 (a bit more if you need the UMKI-1 mic) and will give you Dirac room correction and a proper sub crossover to allow you to seamlessly blend it with your current speakers. |
Emotiva has a couple of floorstanding models that seem to address your concerns. They are the Airmotiv T1 and Airmotiv T2. Both models have twin woofers, a dedicated midrange, and Heil-type folded ribbon tweeter. I haven't heard the Airmotivs, but I've heard several GoldenEar and MartinLogan models which use a very similar tweeter, and those tweeters should give you exactly the treble you're looking for. The folded ribbon is very smooth and natural, yet very resolving. They are totally free of ringing and overshoot common with metal dome tweeters. Although your Harbeth is the "classier" speaker, I agree with you that that 75Hz rolloff is pretty insurmountable given the kinds of music you like to listen to. 75 Hz is just way too high a rolloff for rock, big band, and classical music. These Airmotivs will give you the bass you want on their own, and their frequencies are low enough to integrate easily with a sub. The Absolute Sound published a rave review of the T1 just a few months ago. The T2 has 8" woofers and is spec'd to -3dB @ 35 Hz. It is $999/pair. The T1 has two 6" woofers and is -3dB @ 37 Hz. It is $699/pair. The T1 is inexpensive enough that you could get a decent subwoofer that would reach into the 20's, and you'd have no trouble integrating it. In addition to The Absolute Sound review, there are several other enthusiastic reviews for the Airmotivs: c|net HomeTheaterReview.com Make sure you have a 4-ohm capable amp for these. |