I think it's a good option to have. Just wanted to chime in and rather than take a side over which may be "best" just point out that there are different modes to how we can listen as well as ways to listen. You get it.
Network Transport vs. CD Transport
So I decided to conduct an experiment. I pulled the old Marantz cd player circa 1999, around $400 retail, from storage along with few CDs. Using a coax digital cable with a $4.97 rca to bnc adapter from amazon, I sat down to listen. I played the CD, the ripped version (AIFF) of that CD, and a Qobuz redbook version thru my zmac Mini. Long story short...the reason why I did it was because there is something missing in the Mac Mini sound quality and I got tired of trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
Anyways, that old cd player used as a transport into the Qutest DAC sounds considerably better than the Mac Mini that right now I will need a few days break before I can can listen to the Mac again. I figured (assumed) that a dedicated network transport will pretty much better the Mac Mini and be comparable or better than what I heard with Marantz player as transport. Eyeing Auralic G1, Lumin D2 and Lumin U1 Mini as candidates (I need wifi capability), will any of these be comparable or better than let’s say a decent CD transport feeding the Chord Qutest? For example a Cambridge CXC, or a used high end player?
I can go back to spinning CDs, but figured I don’t want to give up on streaming just yet.
What are your thoughts - Auralic G1, Lumin D2, Lumin U1 Mini, or a dedicated CD transport for high quality playback. Forget convenience, let’s talk purely sound quality...thanks!
System:
Rogue RP-1, Rogue ST-100, Martin Logan Montis, Chord Qutest dac.
Anyways, that old cd player used as a transport into the Qutest DAC sounds considerably better than the Mac Mini that right now I will need a few days break before I can can listen to the Mac again. I figured (assumed) that a dedicated network transport will pretty much better the Mac Mini and be comparable or better than what I heard with Marantz player as transport. Eyeing Auralic G1, Lumin D2 and Lumin U1 Mini as candidates (I need wifi capability), will any of these be comparable or better than let’s say a decent CD transport feeding the Chord Qutest? For example a Cambridge CXC, or a used high end player?
I can go back to spinning CDs, but figured I don’t want to give up on streaming just yet.
What are your thoughts - Auralic G1, Lumin D2, Lumin U1 Mini, or a dedicated CD transport for high quality playback. Forget convenience, let’s talk purely sound quality...thanks!
System:
Rogue RP-1, Rogue ST-100, Martin Logan Montis, Chord Qutest dac.
75 responses Add your response
Interesting thread. I'm getting my system setup again after years of sitting in boxes. Lots of traveling and a move. With WFH likely to be my new normal it seemed time. I've been listening to CD's in rental cars until the last few months when I've been unable to get one with a player. I listen to ripped CD's on my workstation while I do work from home, or Photoshop (I'm a photographer) or Davinci Resolve, etc. I work in tech so work with server, databases, etc. As I'm setting up my listening room, I was looking into redbook players and found this thread about streaming. After reading the histrionics required for streaming I'm definitely going to stick with physical media. The other issue is that I'm thinking that a "no-internet zone" would be good for sanity in these times. I've always preferred the singular experience that comes along with an LP or CD that needs to be changed. Keeps me listening to the thing I've chosen rather than a stream of content flowing in the background. Probably another focus approach to keep me sane. The idea of what sounds better is a concept that lost interest for me years ago when I realized that I was spending more time listening to the same few reference CD's to try out all manner of: cables, power conditioners, gear, pucks, what have you. These days I just want to kick back and listen. Now excuse me while I go and obsess over what cheap redbook player to buy since my Micromega Stages haven't survived the move. |
“Audio streaming. It’s a good place to find new music, or provide background, other than that? Meh. I prefer the simplicity of physical media,” “the only thing I’m missing is a NAS to replace my laptop as the source for ripped cds. And an MQA compatible dac. And maybe better file management. Don’t forget a linear power supply. All that and more. streaming has too many nits that need picking for me to get too deeply involved with it.” @fundsgon, “It appears you have not explored all the available options. Streaming couldn’t be any more easier with a high quality dedicated audio servers. This is where ‘rubber meets the road’ and one gets to enjoy superlative SQ of streaming files. What you need to do is simplify your existing setup and go for one box device that allows streaming from Tidal / Qobuz, onboard internal storage for your rips and built-in internal DAC”. “You were seeking advise on DAC’s to eventually replace your Simaudio Supernova not too long ago. If you’re serious about digital streaming, I would look into Aurender and Lumin brands that offers one box players with built in DAC and internal storage”. This is why I asked the question earlier and offered a simple solution with the Cary Audio DMS600. It’s not cheap but neither is buying multiple items just to try to reach the the same goal of Hi Fidelity. It is a Hi End Streamer and DAC all in one. Check it out for yourself. https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/cary-audio-dms-600-network-audio-player-review https://www.stereophile.com/content/new-cary-dms-550-and-dms-600-network-audio-players-sli-100-integ... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dms-600-owner-review |
“Audio streaming. It’s a good place to find new music, or provide background, other than that? Meh. I prefer the simplicity of physical media,” “the only thing I’m missing is a NAS to replace my laptop as the source for ripped cds. And an MQA compatible dac. And maybe better file management. Don’t forget a linear power supply. All that and more. streaming has too many nits that need picking for me to get too deeply involved with it.” @fundsgon, It appears you have not explored all the available options. Streaming couldn’t be any more easier with a high quality dedicated audio servers. This is where ‘rubber meets the road’ and one gets to enjoy superlative SQ of streaming files. What you need to do is simplify your existing setup and go for one box device that allows streaming from Tidal / Qobuz, onboard internal storage for your rips and built-in internal DAC. You were seeking advise on DAC’s to eventually replace your Simaudio Supernova not too long ago. If you’re serious about digital streaming, I would look into Aurender and Lumin brands that offers one box players with built in DAC and internal storage. Hope this helps! |
Decathlon, i stream from my Moon Mind to my Moon Supernova CD player’s digital input, so whether streaming or playing a CD, the DAC is the same. Source material for streaming is either my laptop (ripped cds) via Ethernet connection, or tidal via Ethernet. I also stream radio paradise and some jazz channels. the only thing I’m missing is a NAS to replace my laptop as the source for ripped cds. And an MQA compatible dac. And maybe better file management. Don’t forget a linear power supply. All that and more. streaming has too many nits that need picking for me to get too deeply involved with it. Just call me Dino, I’m okay with it. |
@gelle I thought about the Nucleus. However, I needed a wifi capability. Didn’t want to run more wires for an access point, EtherRegen, etc. @thyname I felt like I owe you all an update. Things I’m not in love with right off the bat... 1 - Lightning DS interface. Decent and would do if I haven’t seen Roon. 2 - Qobuz on Lightning DS...can’t see different versions of the album. Can’t see bitrate until you start playing the album or track. Also the artist and album info is not always available. 3. With the HDD connected to the back of Auralic, missing bunch of album artwork. That was never an issue with Roon. What would it take to incorporate a call to a Discogs API or other source to pull down the metadata for cover art...not much at all. Not sure why Auralic chose not to go down that path. Other than that, no major faults and as I said before, the sound quality is far beyond what I expected. Both the mac mini and the CD player are out of my system now. One interesting observation - the USB into the Chord Qutest DAC sounds better than via coax digital cable. |
OP @audphile1 : thank you for coming back to your thread and giving an update to everyone. Not many people do so, as they disappear once they receive nice gents’ feedback and help. Since you already have Roon, it will be a no brainer to let your Mac Mini handle the Roon Core duties and let your new “toy” handle the streaming duties. Then your issues with the proprietary Auralic streaming protocol will go away. Enjoy! |
Update... The Aries G-1 has about 48hrs of play time by now. I’ve been running it round the clock non-stop. Initially it sounded a bit “new” but is evolving nicely. At this point I am running the Lightning DS with Qobuz and the HDD with my AIFF CD rips plugged into the rear of the Auralic. The Auralic sits on my wifi network. I am pleasantly surprised so far with both the build quality and the sonics of this streamer - my expectations were exceeded and not by a small margin. There is that silent black background that I wasn’t able to achieve with the Mac Mini, better dynamics, better resolution and separation of instruments, more space around individual instruments and singers, wider and deeper soundstage. I plan to run it in some more and do a listening session over the weekend. Next steps are to try the Auralic as a Roon endpoint using my Mac Mini as a Roon core. There are few things I’m not in love with but they’re all related to Lightning DS interface and have nothing to do with the sound. |
Audio streaming. It’s a good place to find new music, or provide background, other than that? Meh. I prefer the simplicity of physical media. What type of DAC and streamer are you using? I believe streaming has come a long way. Your gear definitely depends on the quality of the sound. If I was to pick, definitely prefer listening to music on my turntable. With the Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement Cartridge, very tough to beat. Some audiophile specialist did comment on my DAC/streamer was impressed how well it sounded. Some never thought it was as possible. At the end of the day, like I said, equipment combination makes all of the difference when it comes to the sound you’re looking for. Happy listening😊 |
Audio streaming. It’s a good place to find new music, or provide background, other than that? Meh. I prefer the simplicity of physical media.Agree, good way to look at it. Then go and buy the most uncompressed (most green boxes) CD version of it here http://dr.loudness-war.info/ which is usually the first release, or the vinyl. Cheers George |
This is my thought. I understand in the audio world that you can’t put a band-aid on equipment that is subpar. It is only as good as the limitations of the electronics. It took me a while to figure this out. I’m currently using a Cary Audio DMS600 DAC/Streamer that does both Tidal & Qobuz. I run it with a Cary Audio SLP-05 Preamp with the upgrade and with the Cary Audio CAD805 AE (Anniversary Edition) Monoblock amplifiers. My Turntable is a Clearaudio Reference with an Ayre PX5e Phono Preamp. My CD Player is a Sony SCD1 ES. I’m happy and love the sound all three sources put out. My Cary DMS600 gets as close to my other sources and I’m extremely happy. Streaming is coming along as technology improves. Pick a system you will be happy with and enjoy the music. |
I'm using a Oppo 105 fed into my Marantz SR7005 for CD's. Comparing it to streaming was pretty close. However, Just picked up a MHDT Orchid. I was so impressed with the SQ when streaming, I decided to hook the Oppo up to it and bypass the internal DAC. Now my CD's sound amazing! SQ noticeably better than streaming. Probably wont go back to full time CD's, but its nice to know its an excellent alternative. |
audphile1 OP. I have faith in the Marantz, but should have at least evened up the playing field a little as far as age goes, and got a Cambridge CXC to do this A/B with instead of the 20 year old Marantz as a transport. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambridge-Audio-CXC-CD-Transport-NO-DAC-Brand-new-sealed-in-box-/153876732980?hash=item23d3c49c34%3Ag%3Aq2YAAOSwKW5ee3pf&nma=true&si=REtmC8y9XffDyp8pqqsHonjk6m0%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambridge-Audio-CXC-Silver-Cd-Transport-Brand-New/264625467039?hash=item3d9ce82e9f:g:N3MAAOSwGshePD1P Cheers George |
Appreciate everyone’s thoughts and feedback. Since I started this discussion, night after night I proved to myself that a CD does sound a lot better than the same album rip played thru the Mac Mini. While I don’t doubt that running the Mini wired and adding bells and whistles such as EtherRegen to the set up will improve the sound, I still think that the sonic gap between the CD transport and the Mini is just too large to bridge. Yes, we can throw more money into the Mac set up with mods, etc. but...will it get to where the CD transport is sonically? I’m not sure. So I pulled the trigger on the Auralic G1 and it’s arriving next week. The G1’s wireless capabilities are appealing to me and will allow me to get the Mac out of my system. I’ll give the G1 a few days of continuous burn in before I judge it and compare it to the CD player transport (remember the Marantz player is over 20 years old). I hope it’s at least as good or better than the CD. If it isn’t, I’m down the shipping cost, and back to spinning discs. I also like the concept and flexibility of the CD player with digital inputs such as the Luxman 03x that was mentioned in this thread so this may be my fallback option. I’ll report back on what I hear from the Auralic. |
Bingo!! |
George, The 24/96 "Reference Recordings" that you mention are not CDs. That's just marketing bullcrap. Why do you think it is better to convert from analog to 24/96 and then to 16/44.1 than to convert analog to 16/44.1? The only reason they do that is because they use "Peak Extend" in the conversion process so they can effectively gain some bits back, up to about 20. They are not real bits though. It is just a method to extend dynamic range to what you get with 20 bits. So yes, if you have an HDCD compatible player, the "Reference Recordings" CDs can sound better. But, as the link I provided in my previous posts shows, if you don't have an HDCD compatible player, the results are not so good. |
Hi Audphile1, This has been my experience in Computer Audio, I invested in digital audio via Mac Mini. I sent it to Mojo Audio where they:
I use WyWires Platinum USB and The Uptone ISO Regen re-clocker I am connected to a Wadia S7i.Dac. Audirvana through WiFi. AIFF When I received the upgraded Mac Mini back it sounded the best that it has ever sounded, however I found it still lacked in overall performance for the same reasons you and others have identified. The best music presentation I get from my set up is playing Redbook CDs from the Wadia S7i CDP/ transport to Rogue Audio Hera 2 preamp. A couple of interesting points - 1. I confided in a well respected audio manufacturer / professional, of my findings and he told/schooled me - there is no streamer/ computer audio on the market today that is going to best a well designed CDP. The technology is just not there. Yet. 2. The absolute closest I ever got the Mac Mini to sound as good as the Wadia is when I placed a Stage 3 Kraken Power Chord on the external power supply. I knew it would make a substantial difference, but did not expect that it would enhance its performance the way it did. Everything improved, Soundstage, imaging, details... That said, as impressive the change was, the Wadia is still better. I hope this helps, Good Luck |
p051293 ... For a dozen years now, it’s been proven that ripped music sounds better than played they a cd player ...Hmmm, there seems to still be some debate regarding that. Could you please share proof of your claim? ... there is no difference in sound in ssd or hdd.There certainly is continuing debate regarding that claim. |
Just recently this year as a matter of fact I’ve moved away from using a transport all together however having owed EMM Labs , PS Audio , Esoteric and a top CEC transport my hard found choice has me satisfied and more content then anything I’ve used and the best part of that I no longer have any urge to upgrade , tweak or change anything and i have no interest in streaming. Currently I am completely satisfied and content , is really an understatement, with the sound quality of a Innuos Zenith 3 server with Innuos Phoenix with my collection of CDs ripped to its 4 TB SSD not to mention the convenience of managing my music and FM internet. There are a number of inherent playback issues with a spinning CD that have been minimized over the decades however many of these issues will never be solved including any future mechanical failures with no guarantee of any parts being available. Anyway what I’m hearing today using this server is far and away more satisfying then any transport or player I’ve ever owned or listened too and I’ve tried many over the past decade . |
porscheracer Let’s get real here. If you are using a CD transport to send digital data to your DAC and use a computer or streamer to send digital data to your DAC, they are both sending the exact same data. >>>>I’m not sure I go along with you on that. An isolated transport (isolated from seismic vibration) will sound better than a non isolated transport. A demagnetized CD will sound better than a non magnetized CD. A transport that has been treated to reduce scattered laser light interference will sound better than one that hasn’t. And a CD that has been physically stiffened to reduce the fluttering during play sounds better than it does without stiffening. So, just by inspection, there are many variables influencing the final outcome. Without addressing those issues I agree, all transports kind of sound the same. I.d., sending the same degraded signal. |
Interesting subject, one I do not understand, but I try to have an open mind on. Here is my experience and conclusion:
On the scale above, changing DACs was a "biggie", a really significant improvement.
So short answer: I would guess that a stand alone CD player would sound better than a computer. But I think a good streamer could equal it. |
Please don't school me, what I'm saying is not so much HDCD but the 24/96 "Reference Recordings" CD's that you conveniently have not even mentioned. You need the educating not me, you have nothing but a pair of ears that can't tell between a good CD being played on a good transport against that same CD being played from a streamer it was transferred to using the same dac in both cases. |
George, Please get your facts straight. CD = Redbook = 16/44.1 HDCDs are 16/44.1. HDCD uses a proprietary algorithm to to compress the peaks of a recording so that when played back on an HDCD decoding device, the peaks are extended and approximate the dynamic range you would get from a 20/44.1 recording. HDCD is most certainly not 24/96. Also, HDCDs with "Peak Extend" used can sound not so very good when played on a regular CD player. Read here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ive-decided-not-to-run-my-masterings-through-an-hdcd-converte... I hope this has been educational. |
There are no CD’s, which are Redbook, that play 24/96 music.Take that up with Professor Keith O Johnson who owns "Reference Recordings" Ok, 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other, they are still CD’s able to be played on normal CD player even with non HDCD and they sound magnificent. https://referencerecordings.com/format/hdcd https://referencerecordings.com/format/hrx And he was the inventor of HDCD, as well as the very sought after, even today dacs don’t come close, the Pacific Mircosonics Model One/Two D/A A/D converters, try to buy a used one, just look at the companies that use them. http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm Cheers George |
Let's get real here. If you are using a CD transport to send digital data to your DAC and use a computer or streamer to send digital data to your DAC, they are both sending the exact same data. Let's assume the CD transport sounds better to you. Why would this be the case? Either the CD transport is sending a better (cleaner) electrical signal along with the digital data or you like the distortion the CD transport's electrical signal creates more than the distortion the computer's or streamer's electrical signal creates. Ultimately, a small electrically quiet streamer, like an ultraRendu, should be able to provide and cleaner electrical signal than a CD transport. There is just a lot more going in a CD transport than a streamer. You have motors and lasers and probably DAC circuitry in a CD transport. Note: There are no CD's, which are Redbook, that play 24/96 music. |
Everybody on this thread uses usb which is flawed. If you get a quality network dac, there is no reason for a music server. All these music servers are computers with hacks to try improving usb. Sure, if you have to use usb, then go for it and keep trying all the tricks to make it better and then spend the $10k that some of these servers are getting so they can try to optimize the USB port. For a dozen years now, it’s been proven that ripped music sounds better than played they a cd player. It doesn’t have to be ripped to cd, it can be ripped to the slowest hdd out there, there is no difference in sound in ssd or hdd. I laugh when I read the headlines about the 256G ssd in the Aurender for caching or the review of the Wolf music server, wolf claims its ssd can read 3.5G per second. Big f&$&ing deal! How much cache do you really need when a song is 50-100M. Do you want to cache 2500 songs? For the Wolf, do you want to read 35 songs a second? What are you going to do with all this songs? If you think ssd cache is going to help in streaming (remember all data has to be fetched into ram before going out they usb) or you need to read 5 albums each second, go for it |
Yes I know it’s on Youtube, but even it shows what "compression (loudness) can do to your music", imagine the difference if it were played to you on a hi-end cd/dac source and not Youtube, with CD bitrate as explained in my last post.. https://youtu.be/3Gmex_4hreQ More in depth longer explanation of what "compression (loudness) does to your music) https://youtu.be/kL13b9hCYjc Cheers George |
I am constantly amazed by the SQ of some of the material on you tube. All audio on YouTube is compressed (data rate approximately to around 126 kbps AAC) The highest in CD are the redbook pcm releases from "Reference Recordings" their CD’s sound magnificent and are 24-bit/96kHz file said to be a data rate of 4.39mbps !!!. and requires 33 megabytes of storage for a single minute of stereo audio. But good main stream Readbook 16/44 CD’s like Roger Waters Amused the Death etc etc are nearly as good and still at 1.35mbps!!!!! compared to the youtube 126kbps https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/stop-listening-to-music-on-youtube/ I think you could be a candidate to listen to early original issue non compressed CD’s. Not a remastered or even many of the new cd’s, which have nearly all been compressed. Put in your artist and album and look for mostly all green versions http://dr.loudness-war.info/ Cheers George |
@mahler123 I don't understand why you have crashes. You probably need to do a clean install of the OS and associated applications. I initially used an iMac and a MacBook Pro to wirelessly stream my lossless ripped CDs for over 7 years and switched to a Mac Mini running headless for the last 3 years. With over 10 years of use, I have never had a crash or any issue with any of my Mac computers. |
@lalitk yup...thought about google wifi mesh. It’s an option. The reason why Auralic Aries G1 peaked my interest is because it potentially sounds better via wifi (Darko talks about it in his review on youtube). With all the wires I already have behind the component rack, adding more is not too appealing, but I am not opposed to it being an option. |
I want to add to this topic my experience. I have been trough several streamers Aurender etc including new ACS10. Last night I tried a CD on my Luxman CD03x and magic came back after feeling for months I was missing something. Lucky I had my CDs on storage and yes they are coming back home. Streaming don't replace CD playback on a good player like this new Luxman. I have qobuz, tidal Hope if helps. |
I eventually gave up on the Mini as a server, and this must have been at least 6 years ago, for two reasons: 1) At the time, the usb inputs on my DAC were noticeably weaker than all of the other, leading me to experiment with reclockers, etc. that proved problematic 2) I hated using a computer as an Audio component, with all the updates, crashes, etc i moved to Bluesound, but after a while I had a major software problem related to failed updates and my Bluesound was M.I.A for a few months. I went back to the Mini since I still had it, and with Audirvana Plus, and the fact that I had upgraded my DAC, was sonically happy with the results, but it is still a computer, would crash, etc. Eventually I added a Bryston BDP3 and I’ve been messing around with a Melco N100. Lately I’ve been using the Melco as a NAS and and playing files from it through my Oppo, and that combination works so well I am thinking of selling off the Bryston, maybe when the economy restarts. |
“I think there are a number of inherent problems with the Mini as a streamer based on my recent findings. One is the internal Power supply. The other is the fact that it isn’t optimized for streaming music in the context of a high end system”. @audphile1, In my opinion, unless you get rid of mac-mini you will never experience the true potential of high resolution digital streaming. For any decent digital streaming setup you need following, >Dedicated Audio Streamer >DAC >Ethernet - Streamer must be hardwired to your router for best sound. >Streaming Service - Tidal or Qobuz >iPad - Not necessary, you can use your phone but iPad is recommended for best app and browsing experience. Since you already own a DAC and prefer Roon interface, I suggest you look into Lumin U1 or U1 mini. Another recommendation would Innuos Zen MKIII. Your system is pretty good so either of these streaming devices would be complementary in your system. Personally, I have been a fan of Aurender Servers but they are not compatible with Roon. Ever since I’ve upgraded from Aurender N100H to N10 5 years ago, I never felt the need to look at another server. Like you, I do not have modem in my listening room. I am using a pair of Google Nest WiFi routers. One Wifi router plugs into your internet provider’s modem to create your Wi-Fi network. The other extends the wireless network and keeps your connection fast to connected device in room of your choice. https://www.amazon.com/Google-Nest-WiFi-Router-Generation/dp/B07YMJ57MB/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3AW0TGLT2IQI... Hope this helps! |
I have a Lyngdorf TDAI 3400. I have an Allo USBridge Signature, streaming from local file storage and Quobuz, connected to the USB input. I have a Lyngdorf CD2 connected to a Coax Digital input. I can also stream directly to the Lyngdorf via BubbleUPNP or MConnect. The CD2 playing the original CD is superior by some way to any of the streaming options. I now use streaming to explore my music collection, playing background music and finding new music on Quobuz. I then buy the CD and play that for a serious deep listen. That is the way to go. |
