Network optimization for serious streamers

I’d say that applies to both sides here.  Maybe not everyone on either side.  But both sides have their shouters.

- Some with engineering backgrounds use their education as an end point. They know all that needs to be known.

- Others with engineering backgrounds use their education as a starting point. They use their knowledge-base as a platform to launch into more learning. (eg: @almarg RIP)

AudiogoN seems to attract many of the former. Little do they realize that they’re bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Their argument about ’bits are bits’ is no different than 'power cords don’t make any difference'. They simply place theory over practice. Their loss.

_ _ _ _

What is both amusing and annoying is their repeated and redundant postings. It’s like a frustrated tourist in a foreign country who raises their voice when trying to communicate poorly in a different language. Maybe shouting will help the other person understand better. LOL.

Sad that people cannot converse civilly.  I tried to bridge the gap here:

@sns Many thanks for sharing this insight! I am sitting here simply gob-smacked while listening to my favorites with the windshield wiped to a new transparency. 

Until your next discovery.

Ed Meitner is principle at EMM Labs, one of the earliest investigators into jitter and it's affects on sound quality. You'll find his views on EMM Labs website, he also contributes to various forums at times, perhaps you could also communicate via email. He is real believer in clocks and having those clocks situated closest to circuits they're affecting.

Based on Ed and other's, jitter greatly affects both timing/flow and sound staging, Sense of digititus or differentation between analog and digital comes from human's acute sensitivity to jitter, ever vanishing jitter levels are greatly responsible for rather recent experience of digital competing with very highest vinyl setups. Sound staging also major contributor to sense of ease, being able to perceive actual performers in room, hearing deep into recording. More organized and enlarged sound staging much further separates individual performers, allowing us to hear their individual contribution to the whole, much more lifelike! All I can say is after having heard any number of world class vinyl setups from mid 70's-around 2010's, this at audio shows and dealers, I know what top flight vinyl sounds like. To keep it simple world class vinyl reproduction sounds like performers in room, streaming digital is  capable of same! Streaming can now be your one and only reference quality source, physical media no longer needed. Just like any reference source care must be taken in setup.

@sns Sir thank you for starting this insightful discussion and I apologize for taking the troll's bait.  Like a few here these trolls look for key elements in a thread and pounce on keywords and phrases. Makes me wonder if they are Russian or ASR bots.🤣😂🤣

@sns Don't know who that is, but happy to read and learn, if you have any links. 

Jitter matters a lot in the ADC DAC processes, however, network jitter is not relevant for this. 

Well, we were going along fine until the usual suspects entered picture. @fredrik222 you continue to mention only John in your attacks, try out Ed Meitner for some elucidation on jitter and clocks.

And so we have the usual, usual argument that what many of us hear is delusional, don't trust your senses, all is snake oil comments. What these people are saying is experiential learning, knowledge is not to be trusted. Their arguments are based on pedantic/reductionist/totalitarian logic, the idea there is this set of 'biblical' facts that are simply irrefutable. There are no more known unknowns, every single fact has been investigated, no point to further investigation, the truth has been arrived at, PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. This being the case, we are now considered fools, tools of high end audio industry, and worse, we are now considered heretics. Always notice they love to use the word, 'educate', yes they are the high priests of truth, we need to be educated, or perhaps whipped and bullied into compliance.

And so here we are at Audiogon forum,  along with whatsbest and audiophilestyle forums, all homes to those who still believe in experiential learning. We are individuals that HEAR differences, good, bad and indifferent with all kinds of audio equipment. Some of us want to know why we hear those differences and others just enjoy the ride. It is curious why the 'truthbearers' visit these forums. Is it to provoke, laugh, deride, oh forgot, educate.

Now, to give the 'truthbearer' the benefit of the doubt. I can think of three reasons for their 'beliefs'. First is they never heard a system capable of delivering sense of real, live performers in room, their own systems compete with or beat the best they've heard so assumption is this is best one can do. Second is they have heard systems superior to their own, but simply live in denial this is so. Denial would come from having heard a system that was tweaked and tuned, since these tweaks and tunes CAN'T work they DON'T work. Third reason would be physically based, the idea not all of our listening senses are equal, the brain/ear complex may be less acute in some people, they can't hear the differences we hear with audio systems. I can relate to this as my visual/brain complex must not be as advanced or acute as some in that I can't differentiate between many of these high end televisions. I've been though a number of them, I can't see much of difference between many models, price tiers, they all kind of look the same to me. I also read these articles that explain how to calibrate for best picture, my choices never correlate to these calibrations! So many more tweaks available, stands, power cords, etc. I have tried any number and can't really see difference.

In any case this is my last post in retort to what I suppose we call 'objectivists'. I quit the cable, power, etc arguments some time ago, this is last for network.

I'm not trying to 'educate' or enlighten anyone, simply suggestions for improving network that may or may not work for people. Others here doing the same thing. We all don't expect everyone's going to find our particular network paths to be supreme, the open minded discover for themselves best path forward. This doesn't bother me in the least, I'm not some guru, I learn far more than I teach. I've done the NO TWEAK, NO TUNE thing, didn't work for me, seems to bother those with need to be the head supremo.

Back to the discussion.

While I am waiting for my wireless access point to be delivered today, it occurred to me that I should be able to turn my wifi in my router on and off while streaming from Qobuz and still being able to control Qobuz with a wired laptop; and I could, easily. (After you push SAVE it takes my router about 10 seconds for implementation.) Bless SNS, he was right. A subtle veil could be easily added or subtracted with the wifi blanket and the effect immediately perceived. Something for you to play with and hear for yourself! The one thing I BELEIVE is my ears!!

So that was a new video from Hans that I had not seen. But basically he is saying that as long as you stay digital nothing matters, it's only when you go from Digital to Analog that you an introduce issues.

Which is not correct to start with, if you have a bad connection, you will have packet drops, which can lead to issues. 

Second, it implies a fundamental ignorance of Ethernet. Ethernet is 100% digital and it is a point to point protocol. What does that mean? It means that the signal generated only goes between two ports, whatever information is transmitted is read of the wire, not propagated to the next point. So, an incoming port reads what's on the wire, recreates it, checks that it was correct (CRC), and then retransmits it to the next hop. Which means, anything that the wire picked up the form of noise doesn't matter. 

Now to jitter, another fundamental ignorance of how streaming works period. First you need to know that steaming is not a continuous stream when you are playing from for instance QuBuz, it's a download. When you select a song, that song is downloaded immediately, and the next song in your playlist is also downloaded immediately. Very short burst traffic. This download goes into your network player buffer, who in turn queues it for the DAC. 

So, jitter during the download does not matter, to a certain point. What does a certain point mean? It means if you have seconds of jitter, you will cause the overall protocol stack to timeout, and then it dies. But that would be over a really bad satellite link to get into seconds of latency and jitter. 

Thank you @lalitk for sharing the video from Hans. A nice explanation of the issues with switches that some manufacturers work hard to resolve. And a tempered/qualified endorsement of the now way-inexpensive Cisco 2960, which I modded to power by LPS rather than internal SMPS, as I mentioned earlier. Expecting that addresses at least a portion of the issues at a price that's easy to pay. The ER was well above that cost threshold, but my ears say it was worth it.

Lalitk, yours among others has been a voice I've come to respect and trust over the years. It's so valuable when people like you, Hans, Swenson, and several others on this forum offer up well-considered information and experience for the benefit of our community - recognizing there's so much that's system-dependent and particularly with networking, not completely understood. More than just with audio, I've grown to be more appreciative that no one is right, and while we may disagree with other's opinions', we can't disagree with their experience. Only learn and grow from it.

Cheers - 

@jerryg123 i guess you missed Nordost, AQ and Wireworld? 
 

Doesnt really matter, lots of noise and issue, Ethernet had nothing to do with it. 😂

Actually he was told to remove the shielded cable.

Only the facts man. @fredrik222 you seem to have an issue with the fact. 

dCS recommends feeding signal to it by ethernet, not USB.  So my eero modem/router/WiFi was two feet from my audio system.  I was getting some non volume sensitive tick, tick tick noise in the left channel of the c-j tube preamp.  And a very low level of hiss like noise in both channels.  dCS also suggested for best results, to use unshielded ethernet cables.  So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

@jerryg123 Hans, sure, he can’t argue and bans people who call his mistakes and misconceptions out. Nothing changes. 
 

what you are still missing, and you too @lalitk, there are just things Ethernet cannot do, and than includes improvements to SQ. You don’t understand the technology and have shown you have no interest in learning either, which makes you susceptible snake oil. That is as tested as time itself.

and in this thread, you have a guy who literally said the  “audiophile” Ethernet did nothing, he had all sorts of issues with noise with “audiophile” Ethernet switch and cables. On top of that, the manufacturer of the DAC told him to remove it.

 Linus showed why theses switches are just a scam. No one can argue anything else, because as soon as you get into actual technical details, you find out that people like John Swenson of Uptone made up things that do not exist to make it sound audiophile like. 

Education @fredrik222 ? All you have done is belittle people that are looking into Ethernet enhancements or improvements.

Did you view the video by Hans?

You will belittle Hans and call it all snake oil. Hypocrisy at its finest.

why I try to educate people? Because it helps some. I have received several direct messages saying something along the lines of “thank you, I thought I was going crazy with all these Ethernet “upgrades”. that are supposed to do something, but I can’t hear a difference at all”. Which makes enduring you worth it.

Here is Hans Beekhuyzen take on why Ethernet switches influence the SQ, 

@coppy777  always comes down to that huh? Why? My system is plenty resolving and perfect for my residence.

That’s not the issue you describe, you has a real audible issue that by your own statements none of these “audiophile” Ethernet products did anything to fix, even though that is their claim to fame. That is the issue at large, and my exact point.
 

now your actual issue, if you put a strong radio right next to sensitive equipment, you can expect issues. However, two interesting things, your expensive equipment picked up a tick and a background noise. By moving the Eero away, you proved that the Ethernet components did not introduce the noise, rather, it was picked up directly by the equipment. To me, the ticks would come from the DAC, and the background noise would come from the tubes, just a guess though.

The idea of a well-engineered streamer made with quality parts doing a good job of fixing networking problems makes sense to me. Unfortunately, those products are usually well out of my price range, leaving me to focus on low-cost tweaks discussed here and elsewhere.

I've been spending some time on whatsthebest forum since my last post. Looks like there's some agreement over there that the Arris SB8200 Surfboard is the best performing modem at a reasonable price. My ISP-supplied modem is an Arris that has 3.1 DOCSIS like the surfboard and doesn't show up on the bad modem list you may have seen. So I'm sticking with it.

There's also some consensus on the Ubiquity EdgeRouter X as a the preferred stand-alone router. Cheap, better sounding than most any alternative (reportedly), has the option to deploy virtual LAN networks that my current TP Link AX50 does not, and ethernet ports can be turned on and off. I have one on order and plan to set the AX50 in access point mode to serve wifi to the rest of my house in a separate box. Hoping the DX Engineering IsoPlus filters do enough job of isolating. Didn't think of controlling Roon from my laptop plugged into the EtherRegen (rest of network rig in another room) during the few times the kids aren't online and I can shut the wifi down (thanks @sns).

Still have some hesitation about leaving the Cisco 2960 switch in the chain between the router and the ER, done primarily to use its SFP that gets fiber in the chain. There is an EdgeRouter model that has an SFP port that would allow me to cut the Cisco out altogether, in case the Cisco's SFP is as noisy as suggested and three switches aren't better than two (I believe Uptone's John Swenson said more switches can be better if upstream noise is well-minimized ). Like with the other tweaks I've made, will have to listen and see.

I wish I had more money and time to buy, listen, sell, and buy again. Contributors in forums like these have really helped me close those capacity gaps with thoughtful information that's allowed me to learn a ton and make informed decisions about changes to my system that have it sounding really good right now. Deeply appreciative for that.

Someone really needs to offer audiophiles double blind test with exact same lineup of major equipment, one modded and tuned, other with no optimization.  Which system wins this shootout? All I know is that I've benefit tested much equipment/variables over the years, new variable goes in and out, try to test one variable at a time. Benefit of new variables is either positive, negative or just different.

I have been testing streamers and DACs the last 2 weeks. The way I compare 2 paths to music (streamer and/or DAC) is to use my Benchmark LA4 preamp with RCA or XLR pairs of sources. I then stream from ROON with GROUPED streaming option. This sends the same stream to 2 ROON endpoints. I can switch between the 2 inputs on my LA4 preamp to immediately hear both on the same passage of music. Not really scientific but I find it useful and have been able to easily hear difference. Especially, if I listen with my RAAL SR1a or CA-1a headphones.

My recent conclusion was the Jon Swenson designed OpticalRendu is awesome and compares favorably to the streamer in the Lumin X1 fibre. I preferred the OpticalRendu by a bit feeling it sounded a bit more refined. I also found that the previously unimpressive Jon Swenson designed EtherRegen was actually very useful as an FMC connected to my network switch. Then fibre from the EtherRegen to either the Lumin X1 or OpticalRendu .

So, after hearing and comparing streamers and DACs I bought into the snake oil pitch. Infact, Swenson suggested in a paper or post to use a FMC in front of fibre. I was going to sell the EtherRegen but I am glad I kept it to try in front of the fibre.

BTW - my streaming setup uses Powerline adapters for 2 rooms of 4 rooms, a cheapo computer for ROON Core, and non-audiophile network switches. This can lead to some crap sound, and it did. My main approach to tackle my non-audiophile network was to use fibre and LPS on the Rendu's. It has worked amazingly; I am not touching this setup anymore.

Hans validating what the OP said.

With all due respect for my fellow music lovers, and not wanting to start (or perpetuate) a fight, I do feel that a balanced discussion is better than an echo chamber. In that vein, I am quite confident that most of what is discussed here is a combo of expectation bias and a love of bling. I have similarly useless stuff all over my audio system. But it’s for fun…it’s a gear head thing. Digital and network just doesn’t work this way. But I have no problem with people enjoying it so long as newbies are not led astray. So, newbies beware…

best to put your budget towards speakers, maybe DAC.  

Hope we don't either we have enough problems with all those folks coming across the border unchecked.

All the best,
Nonoise

@fredrik222 guess reading is fundamental. 

  After reading the first part of this, I decided to move the eero about eight feet away.  Out came two three meter Wireworld ethernet cables to connect the eero to the wall and bring the signal back to the Electric Eight switch with would feed the dCS Bartok via the unshielded cable.  The tick tick tick was totally eliminated.  SQ was still good.  Now back in went the Small Green Computer fiber link to the Bartok.  All noise has now disappeared and SQ is fabulous. The streaming signal is totally silent at all volumes.  Wish my tube phono pre was that quiet.  Thanks folks. 

Well said.  I stand corrected. 

@coppy777 : I guess you are not familiar with Trolls in the internet. Rule #1: do NOT feed the trolls. Engaging them enables them. 

How did I get in the middle of this.

Actually, that's not what I said... the "audiophile stuff" is all back in but arranged better.  Maybe your system, like yourself, is not sufficiently resolving to understand that primarily the proximity of the modem/router/wifi to the audio system has changed.

Can’t be tapping trees when it’s 16 degrees out. Already a foot of snow on the ground and another seven expected tonight. Pretty much business as usual here. You all got hit pretty hard last winter, hope there is no repeat of that.  

That’s a fools bet @jetter . Be in the Colony Freddie how about it. Jitter your welcome to come along to but your probably busy tapping sap from trees.
😂

@fredrik222 @jerryg123

I see both you boys are from Texas. Maybe you two could take it outside and settle it. My money is on fredrik.

@coppy777  so basically you removed all “audiophile” Ethernet products, per dCS recommendation, and your issues went away.

@coppy777  Very nice and nice digital FE Unit. 

This discussion has been very helpful.  X the vitriol.  It motivated me to try some additional solutions to excavate some system noise.  My system is a dCS Bartok Streamer/DAC fed ethernet signal thought an English Eight switch.  dCS recommends feeding signal to it by ethernet, not USB.  So my eero modem/router/WiFi was two feet from my audio system.  I was getting some non volume sensitive tick, tick tick noise in the left channel of the c-j tube preamp.  And a very low level of hiss like noise in both channels.  dCS also suggested for best results, to use unshielded ethernet cables.  So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality.  But the noise.  After reading the first part of this, I decided to move the eero about eight feet away.  Out came two three meter Wireworld ethernet cables to connect the eero to the wall and bring the signal back to the Electric Eight switch with would feed the dCS Bartok via the unshielded cable.  The tick tick tick was totally eliminated.  SQ was still good.  Now back in went the Small Green Computer fiber link to the Bartok.  All noise has now disappeared and SQ is fabulous. The streaming signal is totally silent at all volumes.  Wish my tube phono pre was that quiet.  Thanks folks.

LOL and Yawn @fredrik222.

Guess they have an antiquated digital front end. 

So it goes for those who have mediocre gear. Blue OS is weak at best. 

Cheers Freddie. 

@jerryg123

why I try to educate people? Because it helps some. I have received several direct messages saying something along the lines of “thank you, I thought I was going crazy with all these Ethernet “upgrades”. that are supposed to do something, but I can’t hear a difference at all”. Which makes enduring you worth it.

No @fredrik222 I could care less what he is saying as I do not buy into the switch stuff, not yet anyway.  No, he is a schmuck I do not care for him, nor do I care for you. And he is a pucking gamer.

You have no idea what my world view is.

Another question why are you even here? 

You only post on ethernet/networking threads. 

You are a troll!

@thyname from a factual point of view, almost every post except my posts are just pollution, so there is that. But facts are not relevant, right!

@jerryg123 of course you think that. He puts up facts that doesn’t work with your world view. But that is a you problem.

no, clocking on Ethernet makes no difference. That thread you just posted was someone testing an Ethernet cable as if it was analog interconnect. 0 relevance to real world. 

Oh BTW Linus is a shmuck. 

So, Frisco Freddie @fredrik222 . I know actually the Colony but that doesn't sing. Let me ask you if Clocking on ethernet would make a difference?   

Here is a discussion from Germany on Ethernet cables and filters measurements.

https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651298-diskussion-ueber-messungen-an-ethernet-infrastruktur/page45#post683823

Yup! As I said, when Freddy starts polluting a thread, run! Abort the thread.

This is a dissection of one Ethernet “audiophile” product: 

@sns you and many others buys into what John makes up. That is really a you problem. if you don’t want to actually learn about the technology you are trying to “optimize”, you will only fail. And on top of that, you will believe white papers that people like John publishes. There is almost nothing accurate about that particular white paper. 

still waiting for your elaboration on jitter and how that impacts the sound in a stream into scenario.

Actually, I'm having hard time finding the charlatans here. Is it the modem, router, ethernet cable, FMC, Optical transceivers, clock, lps, IPS, etc. manufacturers?

All of them. They already told you that, many times, right above:

If the device is not broken then your digital signal is 100% preserved in all digital to digital transmission. 

digital to digital transference is solved.   Gear either works 100% or is broken.  

There is literally no room for subtle improvments in digital

There is no such thing as an "audiophile network switch" or even an audiophile usb cable. 

He likely brought it up since I mentioned John and some white paper a while back. He finds fault with this white paper, then infers John is not to be trusted as expert. I haven't mentioned a single Uptone product in this thread, so how he came into it is beyond me.

Actually, I'm having hard time finding the charlatans here. Is it the modem, router, ethernet cable, FMC, Optical transceivers, clock, lps, IPS, etc. manufacturers? Is it anyone investigating network optimization? Are there no more known unknowns existent in regard to networks?

I told in your last rant what my system consists of foolish Freddie.

No Uptone products, No fancy pants switches.

Quality CAT 8, Quality Modem, Quality Ethernet Switch and Fider Media Converters. Quality USB (Zavfino), Innuos Statement, DAC (LessLoss)......

Like I said my digital FE sounds awesome.

Not sure why you brought up John Swenson or UpTone?

Please do not answer that was a rhetorical question.

Can tell your experience is very limited.