You need to fetch your master and after he posts something re; his own room we can discuss.
Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?
After my Audio Science Review review forum, it became apparent that nearly the only way one can determine the measurements of an audio product is wait for a review on line or in a publication. Most equipment is never reviewed or is given a subjective analysis rather than a measurement oriented review. One would think that manufacturers used tests and measurements to design and construct their products.
Manufacturers routinely give the performance characteristics of their products as Specifications. Those are not test measurements.
I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any. Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements. Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I've searched for on line, perhaps several hundred. Same is true for amps, pre-amps, DACs, transports, turntables, well you get the picture. Do they have something to hide? I doubt the good quality products have anything to hide but poor quality products do.
ASR prides itself in providing "true" measurements that will aid in purchase decisions. Why don't the manufacturers provide these measurements so that reviewers can test if they are truthful or not?
Then there are the cables and tweaks for which I suspect that there are inadequate tests available to measure sonically perceived differences but which objectivists believe don't exist or are "snake oil."
Well, please chime in if you have some illuminating thoughts on the subject.
I would have loved to see manufacturers measurements on my equipment and especially those that I rejected.
518 responses Add your response
@kota1 still waiting for polar response plots |
What success? A failed tech executive at Microsoft, worked at Sony for a while, made no meaningful contributions that stand today. No one from his generation knows who he is or what he does. He is extremely unpopular on the web and forums in general for a reason. And you know what that is... Ask Amir to remaster a track. I get to choose. With his butchering of EQ, I can only begin to imagine how much worse his finished product would be... Post room measurments @amir_asr or...be a man and have a real discussion. Your friend is far too helpful ....probably because he is you!! |
I said: ASR is powerless to influence the highest ranks of this industry; such as the top-most Studios, wealthy audiophiles, and audio dealers. Either way, if you write lousy reviews that undermine the actual capabilities of audio equipment, most people might believe it: since they are non-technical. Again, I say that you can't influence the enlightened folks who know their stuff. I have more speakers than just the TADs. The TSM-300s were really good. TAD or any other company is not afraid of ASR. Going up against @kota1 is a very bad idea. Are you nuts?
|
Those measurements are meaningless. What is it supposed to prove? Now show us some polar response plots liked Amir does and we will have a field day with you! I dare you! You will be shocked at the directivity errors! You have massive room issues going on below 100hz. All you have shown is that you know how to use an EQ. Anybody could use an EQ to get whatever curve they liked. You have proven nothing important. You are wrong. |
Again you are contradicting yourself. First you said
Then you say
It cant be both. Either ASR group has the capacity to change the industry or it is powerless. Which is it? You are obviously envious of the success Amir has had. You feel that he is a threat to the industry because ignorance is bliss and you dont want to hear the truth. You are a typical audiophile. I suggest you unplug your silver audio interconnects and throw them away as they are useless. I also suggest you have your TADS measured by ASR group. We will charge you shipping to send it over to us and Amir will gladly test those suckers. You might be shocked at what he finds. You have been warned. Amir is a master of exposing the truth. A lot of these extremely expensive toys in the hifi market turn out to have abysmal performance. Who are you to get in the way of our work? If you have any counterevidence stop complaining, join the ASR forums and post your evidence. We will have a field day with you. Audiophiles deserve the TRUTH and you have no right to interfere. |
Like my Uncle used to tell his brother: "Who died and made you King?" The meaning here is simple. You shouldn't try to take on a responsibility unless someone wants you to help them. Nobody asked for ASR. A great disservice is being done to manufacturers of audio equipment. The improper reviews and measurements do not correspond to real-world performance. I have nothing against your "master" personally; however the impact he continues to have on this industry is overwhelmingly negative. It's like if 100 people were to write a bad Google review and 1 star Glassdoor reviews for Madrona digital (Amir's company). 😃 I've gone over some of what I've written to you....perhaps I've been a bit harsh. So sorry about that! Please consider how you are impacting the livelihoods of employees when you negatively review otherwise good audio gear. Poor sales figures = layoffs. |
if only... @amir_asr had joined audiogon and tried to answer questions on the forums like everyone else, wasn’t so argumentative, and hell, even if he had the wrong answers to every question...at least we could say he tried...the key for him: "be humble."!!! Kind of the like a kid back when I was in elementary school (like 20 years ago) who always got participant ribbons. I was a jock and a cool guy, so I tried to help him by telling the bullies to back off, and they listened to me. The gym teacher at the time had to lie to him - telling him he got "the best ribbon" for each sport/challenge. Cool story, right? |
Pathetic. Sure. I get it too. Amir is keen on destroying established audio companies or anyone who doesn’t pay him for a review! Either that, or he’s just exceedingly incompetent. Perhaps even both!! Check out my systems page for a new photo I uploaded - It showcases alarming differences in test results. Amir recently reviewed an IEM for a little over 2 grand. The folks on Head-Fi know what they’re talking about. Also consider the overblown levels and disgusting EQ Amir implements to "fix" them!! Killing off all brilliance (upper treble) and destroying what is left of the response the driver units can muster. Hell, I think Amir would have great difficulty tuning an integrated car system stereo - with only treble, bass, and balance to set!! left to right so + or - the dB !! |
Why would you trust the owner of PS audio to give an unbiased response to criticism? Couldn't you find someone else? No company owner is ever going to speak badly about their own products even if there is something terribly wrong with it. There is plenty of horrendously overpriced hifi equipment out there much of which doesnt even work. The ASR group works tirelessly to expose these charlatans. Be grateful. |
Of course you should. But you said you dont care about measurements, so how can you say where he went wrong? You are also not qualified like he is. I will have you know that he is a qualified engineer. Are you? |
| Post removed |
Why do you keep worshipping the ground on which Amir walks? What on earth is wrong with you? Seriously, how much did he pay you? Even a beta-male simp loser has more self-respect than you. You have given up as a man and surrendered to some guy on the internet!! Hell, even though I’ve helped a lot of people in real life, they wouldn’t dare stand up for me the way you do for Amir. Although they are certainly grateful, they have their own sense of individuality and don’t yield to authority all that quickly. I wasn’t asking you about if you saw that review or not. Now answer my question - Would you like me to post that detailed photo and explain where he went totally wrong?!
|
I have seen the review he did. Yes it was shockingly bad. But we only know this thanks to the Master. If not, the company would have got away with it. Be grateful |
It's actually entertaining to witness this much redundant failure. Yes, your room measures well and that makes Amir and friends jealous. No machine can compensate for all the air or reflection points in a room. I don't care if it costs 100 grand... @kenjit seriously...how much is Amir paying you to stand up for him? |
Thanks for your reply, I have a nice room to get the best performance from my speakers. The only time the speakers measure like they do when they are measured in the klippel is when they are in the klippel. As soon as you put them in a room the sound is reflected and changes everything. If @amir_asr is master you can call me "your majesty" or "king of all measurements" as you prefer. I have opted not to use the HRH designation. What have you got? |
Master is currently away. However I will have you know that Master uses the klippel NFS technology to measure speakers. This technology was designed specifically to address the problem of having an imperfect room. It doesnt matter how his room measures, he is measuring the speaker without the effects of the room. Master Amir has a Klippel NFS costing $100K. What have you got? |
| Post removed |
The problem you have is that the sound coming out of your gear does not change. Amir, the sound of those speakers you measured with your $$$$ equipment changes the minute you stick them in your room with the bare walls and bare floor. Don’t believe me, measure again and see if you don’t trust your ears. You would be MUCH better off if you sold your equipment and invested in your room like @fleschler did. BTW, if you eventually decide to post your measurements I think you will get the help you need here, NP.
|
That doesn’t really matter. He can also get clicks from other forums, his YouTube videos, people posting ASR links on their personal blogs etc. If his site becomes more popular, then good for him. That is not something that can be stopped or prevented...because the internet is a big place!! I responded to iron-out discrepancies...and moreover, to banish Amir from this site with strong responses for which he had no reasonable answers....therefore needing to call upon one of his supporters to speak for him. Well alright then. We can assume that we won’t hear much from @amir_asr anymore. The water horse has set sail...to far...far..away land in the republic of ASR. |
@mastering92 : what are you doing? You realize you are simply giving Amir and his worshippers (what you call minions) another platform, a tool to generate even more clicks to the site they already own?
Think. Why is he posting here? Isn’t a full site he currently own, apparently most popular audio site in the entire audio world, the ASR, not sufficient for him as a platform to express his personal views fully and freely? |
You, Amir, your site admin, and others who are tasked with this pursuit are not the Power Rangers, Marvel/DC Superheros, Saints, Pastors, or the defends of this audio industry. Nobody asked you to take on such a responsibility and become a "gatekeeper of truth" for everyone in this audio hobby. Like I said before the "ASR group" LOL is not a certified or universally respected standards organization. You and team do not create and enforce standards for ANYTHING AT ALL with audio electronics. The scare tactic is merely measurements...which have caused an uproar from the truly enlightened and intelligent in this hobby who know they are not all-important (measurements alone) and trying to bait manufacutrers in to producing better-measuring audio gear...since now they know Amir and team will be on their radar; trying to bash their company and efforts. Instead, all of you are self-proclaimed gurus who have exasperated existing problems in the audio industry as a whole to unanticipated heights! ASR is powerless to influence the highest ranks of this industry; such as the top-most Studios, wealthy audiophiles, and audio dealers. I double-dog dare Amir and team to call up a music studio in Hollywood, the UK, Japan, etc anywhere in Europe and suggest these budget products. See what happens. Once again, he will be treated like a laughing stock... I have spoken to almost a dozen real audio dealers about ASR; and we have had many good laughs about the website and testing methods. @amir_asr Amir, you do not owe the world anything. If only you would retire for good from ASR and working in general, buy the system you want in its entirety, have a good and happy life with your real friends and family, enjoy listening to music on your own terms, and ultimately leave others alone...you would have much less stress in your life. You are creating all kinds of dichotomies, rivaries, and conflicts between others simply because you always must interject your opinions and beleifs on the masses. Once again, I ask why? I may have found proof your collusion (at least hinting at it) with select brands you review. Want me to post it on here so everyone can see? To be honest with you, I could not care less if you are discredited on every major platform to date...wait a minute...you already have been. I don’t give a damn about your reputation. Only your site admin, site minions, and you care about you. I don’t. No, I do not care about destroying your reputation, but others have done it before countless times. I do not have any personal beef with you, nor do I hate you as a person. Now that’s hard to believe right? I am a well-meaning person. When you get on my nerves and keep spewing nonsense, you or anyone deserves backlash that crushes and dismantles your entire belief system, and we’ve already given you that over and over. Someone like Gene DellaSala is already an objective eye in this industry. We do not need you @amir_asr ! Ultimately, our purchase decisions will be made spending our own money, not yours. I shall not respond further to your minion - @kenjit whose username sounds familar when I was a member on ASR...he has gone though the ASR stadards protal and landed here...on Audiogon. Big mistake. This webiste is populated by knowledgable audiophiles and pro audio folks who know their stuff. Amir, did you actually believe that you alone possess superior knowledge in audio?! Give it up already. You will be happier and perhaps even live a longer life without all this added stress that you bring upon yourself! So once again water horse... @amir_asr I’ll give you two options: 1) Respond to the logical retort that @kota1 has presented to you above (which you previously attacked on another discussion; stating that his software results were incorrect or inconclusive; how do you know this without actually being there in person and confirming said test results? Well you don’t. You lack a stupendous amount of creds and it shows, Amir. You want real knowledge? Well here it goes: RMAF15: What The Specs Don’t Tell You… And Why (from an Audio Precision Employee) Reach out to a Techical Director at Studio @amir_asr You would get absolutely swamped such that you, being a gigantic water horse with grandiose narcissism would drown under the waters of real objective truth in this industry. 2) Take a bow and admit you’re wrong. Rihanna - Take A Bow No matter what you try @amir_asr , you will always be taken down by people who have more knowldedge/experience/credentials than you. Always remember that!! - And with great power, comes great responsibility. (You have lead an entire community or flock of now-minions astray on ASR). You also damage the minds of laypersons who want to explore this hobby. Once folks find out that just because an audio device produces output (that does not make it good) they will hunt you down like a bad dog and hold you accountable. Don’t make me talk to my industry connections worldwide lol ...there could be a lot of troube in store for you. |
We have tested the chinese DACs and found them to offer superior distortion. They are priced fairly based on cost of parts. Why pay ten or twenty times more for inferior performance? Who does that benefit? It only profits the high end companies. Good measurements are not everything but neither are listening tests alone.
We care about elevating the standards in the audio industry. If theres too much junk out there, that cant happen. We are here to promote the basic principle of high end audio which is perfect sound quality. If you do not subscribe to this, you are the one that does not belong in our community. We do not want our community standards to be compromised or tainted.
Listening tests can vary depending on your ears your room your setup. We are here to test the performance of the gear without those variables. |
The problem we have is that audio companies think they can just feed you marketing claims and you accept it. This is ASR defined, you are here feeding your own marketing claims. I am not insulted at all, but did I "accept it" 🤣🤣🤣 @amir_asr do you really want to measure something, let’s start with your OWN room OK? |
bolderdash...all of the above. Why is he trying to "expose the truth about high-end audio?" who exactly does that benefit? How do you know that costly audio products (in that particular price range) are scams?! He is sharing what he believes to be objective data that does not translate in to real-world performance...we all know that gear he praises so often costs pennies on the dollar to build..v-chip computer-grade capacitors, OP amps, no discrete components or fuses, etc. And you know this...how?! You are actually suggesting that well-known or reputable or popular audio brands do not employ qualified employees? How dare you! The ASR group?!! never heard of it. ASR is not like JEDEC: stop dreaming... Really? You, Admin and friends have enfeebled their minds and made them believe that only ASR is right?! Well good then, because who cares. The concept here is...costly = scam. Cheap = good. Measurements = everything. Right?! That’s like saying michelin star restaurants are a scam, high-end cars are a scam, luxury housing is scam, high-end computers are a scam, etc. Most importantly, why on earth do you and Amir care so much about what others believe? Like my grandfather used to say..LIVE AND LET LIVE. Let others live how they want to without interferring in their lives.Let folks in this audio hobby spend their money on what they want... If you change someone’s mind...what is in it for you? In no other industry does such a person or community exist...one who tries with such effort (yet ultimately futile attempts) to convince the masses that their train of thought and beliefs are misguided or just plain wrong. With no one else do we argue about "being objective" vs being "subjective." We all require the use of descriptive language to communicate to others our listening impressions. That is not difficult to understand. How much did Amir pay you to post for him? |
What companies do is take shortcuts LOL, are you still sitting in that same room with the bare walls and floors with your mic and laptop? Get a REAL studio Amir, it will help your brand, not to mention your results, stop with the shortcuts already. If you want a reference look at our virtual system area, many members here are taking time to do it proper.
|
Of course he would be silenced if he is exposing the truth about high end audio. Do you realize the damage it would cause the industry if it were found that $100K amps and speakers were all scams?
No he is not. He is sharing objective data with the public and exposing the conspiracies going on within the industry. There will always be those that are in denial such as yourself but you can't deny the truth. If you think you are qualified to refute his claims you will need to provide your data which contradicts his findings.
Most are not qualified. The ASR group set high standards within the industry because nobody else will.
They have already been converted to the ASR school of thought. There is no going back once you find the truth. |
The Water Horse: Legend of the Deep LOL The Water Horse has hatched from a new egg!! Or perhaps a life story?! From 0:44 onwards... the manufacturer, the dealer, the buyer, and the Water Horse! "there can be only one in the world at a time." Sounds about right!! Have a good laugh guys!!
@amir_asr Folks...If anything he becomes far too triggered by differences in viewpoints. Good God. This is the real world...where people may disagree about particular subject matter. How you construct your retorts is rather distasteful. Talking about heartburn, being emotional, fortune cookies, folklore, heaven, and even "darkness." Maybe AudioQuest named their cable - Mythical Creature after you! Writing about what audio manufacturers don’t do - such as them not using up to date audio measurement equipment is none of your business. How they produce audio electronics is up to the qualified, experienced, and degreed employees who work at these companies, not you. Same with the audio electronics from otherwise good companies that you constantly bash. Folks in pro audio, such as legends like Ray Staff and Steve Hoffman would run circles around you in terms of real technical audio knowledge...despite the fact that you are a large Water Horse. "You can have a big mouth, but don’t try to bite off more than you can chew. " - Above is what your fortune cookie says. You constantly trash-talk and it gets on people’s nerves. This is why you have been banned on so many different audio forums. Want me to share old-skool screen captures?! You do the same thing every single time...grow up and learn to be mature. Especially at your age. This proves that age alone is not an indicator of wisdom, emotional intelligence, or overall intellectual capacity. You are always trying to impose your personal beliefs and supposed expertise on audiophiles or anyone interested in the hobby...guess what?! Nobody really cares! Back to audio manufacturers - Do you run their companies? Do you make it possible for their employees to put food on the table by providing them an income? No. One thing you are incredibly good at is becoming a laughing stock on audio forums. You don’t welcome 3rd party valdiation of your testing; Yet I have seen posts on numerous forums where experts have proven your measurements were done incorrectly. Like Paul McGowan said, he wishes you would contribute to this hobby, rather than be a thorn on its side. So Water Horse, I summon you back to the waters..away from the land...leave audio enthusiasts, pro audio folks, and audiophiles alone. Your only fanbase are the minions on ASR. Eventually, they too shall become believers in listening as the ultimate test. What will you do then?! Water Horse says: BHAAAHHA !!! |
Of course you get to make that sort of demand on your website, but not here. No on A'gon is obligated to submit any proof upon your demand, nor do we need your permission to post to this site. |
Another emotional rant with no constructive value. No, I am not a "measurement god." Learning to use an instrument to measure audio gear is not impossible or hard. The problem we have is that audio companies think they can just feed you marketing claims and you accept it. So why try harder to provide proof? So I come around and test things. That causes heartburn for you. As if having more data is bad for us as consumers. Better logic can be found in fortune cookies. Be an advocate of consumers. Ask for proof points. If someone says XYZ sounds better, ask them for listening tests where only the ear was involved. If they refuse, then ask them for measurements. If they don't give you that either, then run, run away fast. Alternatively be part of the solution than the problem. Don't spend the time writing this missive of a response. Instead, encourage companies to provide more reliable data to us. Support the work some of us are doing to to improve the situation as opposed to acting the PR shield for companies. I just finished testing a $2,299 IEM. In ever regard it is worse than my favorite $50 one:
This is what proper testing gives you. And oh, the testing included listening test so don't climb up that tree..... |
The perspective buyer has been kept in the dark with respect to true capabilities of the product. Instead he has been trained to eat up marketing claims that are easily falsified. I am trying to shine some sunlight here. What business of yours is it to push us back into darkness? Stand aside if you have nothing technical to share that can be objectively relied upon. Heaven knows we have enough people lining up to feed folks folklore this way.... |
Me being opinionated? How about you all? I stand on shoulders of numerous engineers and designers in audio. Who do you go by? Your gut and folklore you read online? Back to your point, yes, there are measurable differences in cables which I show day in and day out. The problem you have is that the sound coming out of your gear does not change. This is confirmed both in measurements and controlled testing where only your ear is involved. You want to put your head in the sand, be my guest. But don't make this personal about me. |
I have not only visited them, I have had them directly and explicitly tell me they lack such gear. You and I may think it is justifiable for them to invest in such gear but they think otherwise. Take PS Audio with their super expensive new speakers. Their designer is active on ASR and clearly stipulates that the company doesn't want to invest in this gear. So they are having their speaker measured by a third-party testing lab. After the fact (design) sorry to say. As to better machines, no, it doesn't exist. The only alternative to Klippel NFS is a massive ancehoic chamber. I am talking $5M+. The $1M ones are too small to be anechoic to 20 Hz as Klippel NFS is (actually NFS has no lower limit). What companies do is take shortcuts with gated high frequency measurements and patching that with ground plane testing. This gives you decent results but it is very time and resource consuming so it only gets done once in a while. With Klippel NFS, you can do two scans in a day and generate full 3-D map of the speaker during that time! It will highly accelerate the design verification. Then again, $100K plus space and training to use the gear is more than many companies want to spend. This is gradually changing though as I have seen companies buy the system after seeing ASR measurements. And realizing that the awareness around these measurements is increasingly and rapidly so. |
having plenty of data is like having lots of shoes. You know, like women, who have lots of shoes? is each pair of shoes the right size? Can it match with what she's wearing etc. So having lots of shoes or lots of data are both meaningless unless we can find common ground and repeatable metrics of performance.
Okay... so a multi-million dollar company that can afford to take measurements decided not to. The reason for non-sense products in audio is gullible customers; namely non-technical/inexperienced audiophiles. The exuctives and folks in marketing know this - so they produce these products with the intent of selling them for healthy profits! Who are you to ask for product data from companies? Unless of course you have intent to purchase - for example, asking about rated ouput power for a headphone amplifier in mW into a certain number of ohms.
Have you visted manufacturing facilities and corporate/engineering offices to confirm these supposed findings? I would think that any popular or even remotely successful audio manufacturer has more money than you, so being able to afford an audio analyzer is likely not a hurdle. Your $100k Klippel costs as much as a half-decent Porsche. There are better machines out there. If there's so much bad-measuring gear out there, why are those brands so popular and respected?! for example, Luxman and Accuphase.
If a manufacturer is proud of their work, they will want others to notice. I've worked with a lot of clients before; some in industrial manufacturing; won't get in to details. However, important information is shared if we ask for it. You cannot be sure of what someone else is thinking (not wanting to publish it) this is merely a correlation you are creating that is otherwise invalid. Of course employees disagree at every company...but that does not mean the end result of their work was an inferior product.
Small amounts of current or voltage variation can influence how well an audio component performs. Different types of metal - copper, silver, CCAW wire can impact sound quality. Why be so opinionated, as though only you are right?! I'm just stating what I believe is true based on experience.
Again, who cares?!
So you are the audio measurement god and all companies must yield before you so that you can measure their electronics and rank them on your website? Who cares what they use. Does it sound good? That's what really matters.
Where on earth are you reaching this conclusion from: "Audiophiles have gotten quite a bit more educated and are driving this change." Nah, I don't think so. Every audio ethusiast I know visits different audio shops, takes notes, and compares/contrasts audio gear based on listening by themselves and with a friend or their Wife. Because that same system would be in their house if they spent their money and bought it. I don't think audiophiles are flocking to your site like seagulls for french fries..lol
Tell me what you think the product does (product description) and I will tell you if it meets those standards/fills that purpose. That is truly all a prospective buyer needs to know. Good enough or optimal for them, then they can buy what they want and be happy. End of story. |
