@jays_audio_lab
Totally agree with you. Alexx totally kills the Alexia 2. Can't super charge a DAW to sound like an Alexx either.
Totally agree with you. Alexx totally kills the Alexia 2. Can't super charge a DAW to sound like an Alexx either.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
You can't turn a Camry into a Sequoia by stuffing the same engine in it Doesn't work that way. There is more that goes on with the larger speaker than just bass. You are overlooking the crossovers and the dual midrange drivers. Not even the Alexia 2 gets close to the alexx. Huge gap between alexx and Alexia 2. But the gap between Alexia 2 and daw is less. |
I have heard both. Both sound good. Extremes definitely in another league! Speaking of cheaper hacks, anyone here has tried to stack their subwoofers? I have seen Rel has this line array trying to stack six subs to form a better bass. Most speaker companies they share their tweeters and midranges drivers throughout their lines but the difference is always the bass unit. I am always wondering if you use a say Sasha DAW and stack 6 huge Rel subs would it sound like an Alexx? Crossover is hard but you can tune each sub by yourself. If it can give you the bass that a bigger speaker can give you, this might be a great hack since even six big subs can sometimes be cheaper than upgrading your loudspeaker + power amp. |
@viber6Thank you for your comments on Benchmark vs Nagra. I have heard both of them in different settings. I haven't ABed them in my own system so you are right claiming Nagra is better than Benchmark is hasty. However, in different settings, Nagra is more often combined with high-end gears such as Wilson Audio, Magico, etc... I have never seen someone uses a Benchmark to pair with very expensive gears. And of course they both sound good, but in different levels. And spending that amount of money doesn't guarantee you the good sound. But it can give you a certain sound that no other brands can give you. Nothing on this market could sound like a Gryphon, and nothing could sound like a Nagra. Nagra uses all Mundorf capacitors and have huge current supply, which are very expensive themselves. You can use them to drive huge speakers like Wilson Alexia 2 and play things like 1812 Overture without any problem. I doubt Benchmark has that kind of capabilities. If a Benchmark can use all cheaper parts and sound like a machine that utilizes all expensive parts, the entire ultra-end audio industry should all close their shops. I don't think Nagra can exist in this market if their products can charge six times than the Benchmark does and sound completely the same. But again, maybe 6 times is too much. HiFi is very subjective and even if I told you that any brand sounds better than other brands, it is meaningless because what you think is not what I think. I think spending $10k on Chanel bags doesn't make any sense. A lot of girls that I know think it does. They think spending $10k on cables doesn't make any sense as well... I like your way of critical thinking though. It adds some different flavor into this thread so I encourage you to keep posting. I just hope this thread and Jay can keep doing the ultra-end stuff. Also, I think there are good Class D amplifiers. MBL N15, which is $35200 a pair, sounds magnificent, especially when driving MBL speakers. But I also think the best sounding class D amplifiers would still be uber-expensive. Any discussion/suggestion/thinking is warmly welcomed :) |
viber6 You do not understand, no disrespect but i'll leave it at that. Regarding live vs recorded i have spent decades with live sound, i was one of the sound personal for the GD and built and designed speakers for what was called the Wall Of Sound, spent decades in studios and clubs in the SoCal area, Doc Severson used to play everynight at the Vine Street Bar And Grill after The Tonight Show i was a regular there, the Pasadena Civic and Greek Theater were my other hang outs, these were not dives but venues that had great acoustics. I truly believe you need to listen to better equipment instead of mid high end equipment. It has it's place but not in this tread. If someone cannot hear a difference between lamp cord and good speaker cable it's either that persons hearing or their equipment is no as good as they think it is. |
"Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely." - OP I just bought a two channel Plinius SA 102 and a Plinius M-16 preamp that was heavily modded by Plinius Repair in California. I think it could share the same response as you've given to the Plinius Odeon. My SA-102 can be switched to 120 wpc of Class A. See "How I Beat the System to Nab an Unbeatable System" in Tech Talk |
All 60 trillion cells in my body dance in the infinite light of the divine. What a miracle we all are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I said that nothing new is being said here......above is a prime example. Viber6 says exactly the same thing on almost every post. The ego is so funny (hey, I still got one!). We are so addicted to the same patterns. We are not our ego patterns....we are infinite. There are lots of games to play and many of them are far more satisfying than discussing/being right about "detail" or "dynamics" or whatever. How you do any one thing is how you do everything. What if you did Everything with total joy, love and gratitude. Every thought you think, every word you say (or post here or anywhere), every feeling you feel and and every action you take affects every single person on the planet. How do you want us (all of us) to feel? When you listen to Jay's stereo do you feel uplifted? Do you feel uplifted when you listen to your own stereo? Do you share your uplifted state with all? Are you a better person....after you "make love" here? Is there a better lover....and better song.....a better dance.....a more uplifting joyful all inclusive dance? Just questions to ponder on this beautiful Sunday.....blessings to all. |
rh67, Of course, "sizzle" is a crude description of what we mean by HF transient excitement. But you seem to believe that some SS amps have "too much" HF energy and excitement. If you experience live natural sounds, both musical and nonmusical, you realize that ALL audio systems are hopelessly dull. A few days ago, I walked past a playground and heard a strange new metallic sound at about 70 dB. I looked around and saw a little girl sitting on the ground about 15 ft away from me. She was banging a metal toy in her metal pail, her version of Metallica. At that moment, I thought to myself that all audiophiles should have been there to hear this. Tubes cannot quite reproduce this to the degree that good SS can. We all know that tubes do unique things, but they are handicapped in delivering lifelike transients like this. Some tube amps sound clearer and sharper than some euphonic SS amps, but good neutral SS amps will show the good tube amps to have some warmth/fuzziness. |
New powecords on dacNew USB cable New Ethernet cable No music server Cables are not broken in Still on garbage speaker cables Enjoy https://youtu.be/IX16nT-HZx8 |
Sizzle is what you hear at a burger joint. There is a big difference between sizzle and hearing the leading edge of let`'s say cymbals decaying into the sunset, there is an edge that opens a window into reality. Finding the balance of overdone and not enough is the trick, amps can and do sound different from each other but are they really moving ahead or just sounding different. I can mod any amp to sound different from the original but different does not mean better. Amp design is key more so than the sum of the parts. |
"Layers in guitar amp distortion can sound beautiful and fantastic via a tube amp." Hmm. OK, not just the distortion, but also the main melodic content. But the "snap" or "sizzle" or whatever other words you can use, will be rounded off to various degrees by tubes compared to a good, neutral SS amp. When I heard Jay enthuse about Metallica, he is likely excited about the sizzle and not the beauty of sound. I bet this recording will have more sizzle with the Soulution 725 preamp. In the 70's, SS was really bad. Midrange tonality was severely mutated so that an oboe would sound like a clarinet, etc. Back then, I sought refuge from SS by getting tubes. The midrange was beautiful. But the best tubes like ARC amps were muddy compared to even the modest Krell KSA50 back then. Mike Fremer makes a large part of his living from reviewing. He travels worldwide and knows lots of important engineers and musicians. He has had a whale of a musical life--look at his video of his home system, record collection and the stories that go with it. He is a 75 year old legend. He was excited about the VAC tubes, but I have come to realize that he likes a good degree of euphonic, warm sound. His DartZeel ref amps he describes as less defined in bass and other things compared to the PS Audio M1200 he reviewed, a mere $6K/mono pair. |
Layers in guitar amp distortion can sound beautiful and fantastic via a tube amp. Most notable guitar players use tube amps to produce the sounds and textures that we hear in their recordings. I'm also a big fan of surf guitar done right, it's simple but has a quite amazing signature. Great electric guitar has body and soul but most do not know what to listen for. A SS amp can be too fast with rock while a tube amp could be just right, up until the late 70's most recording studios were all tube and most guitar amps were tube also so if one is listening to classic rock for example what your listening too was born via tubes. Tube amps are just like SS some are good and some are better. What Mike Fremer means by snap i have no idea he is just a reviewer and what he says should be taken with a grain of salt just like any other professional reviewer, some of these people think that they are the real "EXPERTS" when in reality it's a side hustle to make some coin. The VAC 425iq is a fantastic amp and i have mentioned it here a few times, i have had experience with the mono blocks and not the integrated which i'am sure is also great. In their price range it's hard for me off the top of my head to think of a SS amp that can equal the 425iq. If Jay has the VAC things are going to get interesting for sure. |
I like the snap of the Metallica songs. I never heard them before, but they illustrate the excitement of many types of music. No tube equipment will give the excitement here. They will make the metal sound a little soft, like wood. Maybe you have the VAC 452 iQ coming. Mike Fremer said they were the fastest tubes he heard, but admitted they didn't have the snap of his SS amps. Metallica should sizzle, not have "beautiful" midrange and polite HF. This is good demo material, and doesn't require lots of power, Most important is speed. |
WC, Do you think the lack of a power conditioner is helping the rock music to sound more like it should sound? A lot of times, power conditioners seem to do lose some of this type of sound, even though there are some benefits to what they do. It will be interesting to see if the SR Powercell allows you to keep the raw sonics.Thanks for the good music! Dave |
This thread would benefit from getting the Class A CODA #16 in for a shootout. I have the lower end CODA #8 Version 1 ($6K) and it sounds so Luxman c900u/m900u-ish with the CODA 07x preamp. The #16 seems to be a value based UBER amp that goes head-to-head with the amps on this thread. American made versus a lot of the imported amps that have a lot of costs associated with bringing them into the USA. A lot of great American amps. |
All of the above posts saying that cheap amps cannot equal or outperform expensive amps are based on ignoring a few inconvenient truths. For example, claiming that the Benchmark AHB2 cannot equal or beat the Nagra Classic for clarity is based on NOT auditioning the AHB2. RIAA deserves credit for being the staunchest proponent of the need for personal audition to make any claim. Second, designers all have their sonic preferences. The AHB2 design goals were clarity/transparency/neutrality, and they have succeeded according to my listening for 1 month, and yyzsantabarbara's longer ownership. All the Gryphon amps have some degree of warmth, according to Jay, even the Mephisto which was warmer than the Boulder, verified by several good listeners including myself and mrdecibel. Yes, all the Gryphons have better build quality and drive capability than the AHB2. I didn't buy the AHB2 because it couldn't drive my parallel electrostatic speakers without shutting down, but I loved its qualities at moderate levels. Many people have conventional, more efficient speakers, so the AHB2 drives them well. Third, a more theoretical claim. It is a correct widely accepted notion that simpler circuits with shorter signal paths are the recipe for clarity/transparency. This should inherently reduce the cost compared to a larger, complicated circuit which costs more. All this assumes that your goal is accuracy/transparency. The AHB2 is an example of the above. But if your goal is brute force, by all means spend your money on big, heavy amps which are expensive. Fourth, an amp is not a high performance car. More money buys more power, acceleration, etc. I am not knowledgeable about cars, but I wonder if the high performance power cars can do the subtle moves required if there is 2 inches of clearance when driving between 2 vehicles, or avoiding a bicyclist, etc. Jay might say that the expensive car can do everything better, but the driver has to have more skill. For my average skills, I am safer in a conventional car because I couldn't properly handle a high performance car. As an aside, some high end phono cartridge manufacturers employ small women with delicate hands and great coordination to do the skillful hand construction and adjustment of those cartridges. Such a woman would be out of place in an amp factory where strong men are needed to lift heavy amps around, even with assisting tools. This illustrates my contention that brute force is useful in some tasks, and subtle skill is for others. Different amps are designed with different priorities, for the consumer with different preferences. More money helps in some cases, but not others. |
First time on YouTube: Metallica on a $400k system. Nobody is doing this kind of stuff. Wear headphones and crank it the hell up!. No music server, no special speaker cables, no power conditioner and stock cheap powercords on the msb. This is the new monster monos with matching preamp. From here, we can only go up! You can hear the immediacy, dynamics and explosiveness of the system. This is still not fine-tuned folks. Just wait... https://youtu.be/btVSE8u07HM |
We all WISH there was gear that was far cheaper and that easily bested the expensive stuff. The only one amp i can say has been a surprise as of late is the Gryphon Essence. Again, this is proof that for me NOT ONLY EXPENSIVE gear is amazing. Anyhow, has anyone here ever wondered what Metallica sounds like on my system ? Today you might get to find out if YouTube doesn't block the video of course. It was SO MUCH FUN to listen to this yesterday and i found myself not analyzing the system but rather enjoying the music. |
WC: face the facts. Viber and ricevs actually believe the stuff they say (ricevs) over and over and over and over and over and over (Viber). They actually think that stuff is better. I don’t think anything you or anyone else says will convince them otherwise. Ricevs sorry for grouping you with Viber here because I know your deal is tweaks but you do continuously profess that expensive amps will soon be boat anchors so that’s far enough out there in crazy land to warrant inclusion just this once with mr zip (and psst, mr zip, the reason nobody commented on all of the videos you keep asking about is because nobody cares) To be clear I am not ripping on inexpensive gear. We all (including WC, read his first post of thread) have or have had inexpensive gear and likely enjoyed it for what it was. But to contend the bargain basement gear (the usual stuff that shall not be repeated) can sound better than the systems WC presents (as is contended ad infinitum here) is lunacy IMO, and dare I say it, tells you everything you need to know about the audio judgement of the one making the claims. To a few those statements will be celebrated, but to most experienced audiophiles they’ll be dismissed as out of touch ramblings . To each their own. |
If there was a way to build an amp for $3,500 that can put an @$$ whopping on a Mephisto, don’t you think someone would have done it by now? Don’t you think that if a company saw an opportunity to build far better product that is more economical they would have jumped at the opportunity? Why hasn’t ANY MANUFACTURER shown up with something quite affordable that can easily demolish the ultra high end? It’s just not doable and this is why they don’t really do it. This is why they stay in their lane and don’t go at it with the big brands. You really REALLY think that tomorrow we will all roll out of bed and find out that there is an affordable class D amp that is killing the Boulders, constellation and Gryphons of the world? I got news...you’ll be waiting a LONG TIME at the bus stop...that bus ain’t coming. When it comes to amplification (which is what I am most familiar with), there isn’t anything that touches the heavy hitters. The gap between the heavy hitters and the affordable amps is quite big. Take Parasound for instance: good brand, good construction, good sound. How long did it last in my room? You think that was by coincidence? Why do you think i still have 7 year old constellation monos sitting on the sidelines? I’d take a depreciated set of constellation amps over ANY recently released MIDFI amp. It’s baffling to see how bad this old amp murders many new amps. That said, i predict this new Luxman amp is going to take down some names. I also heard there is a big expensive set of Luxman monos coming out next year that will replace the 1000 series. |
For pure business reasons, I think it is valid for Jay to devote his YT channel to expensive stuff that most viewers would not otherwise see or hear. My advice to Jay in my last post was purely for his own pleasure in his home system. I suppose there are a few high end dealers whose home systems have great sounding modestly priced components they can afford. Even if a dealer can get stuff at 50% off retail for himself, that is still uber-expensive for Soulution and the like, especially when he tries to sell the stuff and get only 30% he has lost money even with the dealer price. This industry is cruel. Why is there such hostility from some people when I offer a few names at cheap prices that really compete sonically with the expensive stuff? Ricevs brought to our attention the video on the L'il Audio Silver 8 speaker. I challenge anyone to record those video selections on their expensive speaker, and let's see if the expensive speaker displays clarity and snap equal to or better than that cheap Silver 8. Logydoghan, You cannot make honest statements about anything unless you have heard it in your own system--that's obvious. You found the DCS dac far superior to a Benchmark dac, that's fine. Maybe I would have the same findings since I am not impressed with my Benchmark dac. But it looks like you have never heard the Benchmark AHB2 vs Nagra. Don't fall into the trap that something expensive MUST be superior to something cheap. This is true about cars most of the time, but it is NOT true about several types of audio components, in my experience. I hate rolled off euphonic sound, so I wouldn't live with a $100K amp with that type of sound if you paid me that $100K. The same applies to someone who likes warm sound who would rather pay $100K for that warm amp than $3K for the accurate, revealing AHB2. |
I think that this is WC's thread and "his" choices of what he wants to try - not our choices. And, as WC mentioned, he doesn't mind suggestions, but he definitely indicated a preference to go just one round with these things and not to have these things come back over and over again. To me, anything outside of that is disrespect for the OP - for WC. Dave |
@kren0006 Agreed. It is always the same few that take this thread off course. If those posters want to go there, find, or create, a place/thread that appreciates that discussion. I, for one, have heard many many systems and I'd love to have just spent $3k, or even $10k. But I can tell you first hand that those systems, while OK, are no where near $50k, $100k+ systems. That's the primary reason higher price systems cost more - once you hear them you can't go back, unless one cannot afford them. I'd own the Mbl Extreme system if I had the house and capital for the system, but I don't. So I settled for what was in my particular budget. Higher priced gear is not just bling as so many posit, it is higher priced because it is just obviously sounds much better, in a different league, and sometimes, just on a different planet better. @jays_audio_lab - totally agree with you. You've been very responsive and cordial. It'd be nice to get this thread back on track. |
kren00061,500 posts08-19-2021 10:53am No sneering remarks. Just respect WC’s wishes and stop talking about stuff that has no place on this thread or his channel.This isn’t "his channel." TAKE A HINT!!! If it bothers you that much that your stuff isn’t worthy (WC’s decision - he’s told you that a million times and he just did again in his last post - reread it) then don’t follow the thread.This isn’t "his channel." ... NO IGNORING WC’S WISHES FROM THE USUAL DOLTS WHO CANNOT RECOGNIZE THAT THEIR STUFF SUCKS IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WC PRESENTSUsing ALL CAPS only undermines whatever point you’re trying to make. Everyone is free to post here within the forum rules. If you have complaints about participants here, take them to the moderators. |
You don't want to compare an AHB2 to a Nagra classic amp the same as you don't want to compare an entry-level Mcintosh to a Gryphon Essence. There are brand premiums that Nagra and Gryphon charge you for sure. But they can charge that amount of price simply because their sound quality can hold that value. Just like the dCS can charge 10 times more than a Benchmark DAC and people still love to buy them. You can argue maybe 10 times is too much? But dCS is in every way better than a Benchmark DAC. I actually chuckled when I did the comparison. Like when I heard an LS3/5a and then a Wilson Audio. I chuckled too. |
No sneering remarks. Just respect WC’s wishes and stop talking about stuff that has no place on this thread or his channel. TAKE A HINT!!! If it bothers you that much that your stuff isn’t worthy (WC’s decision - he’s told you that a million times and he just did again in his last post - reread it) then don’t follow the thread. And in the spirit of your final comment with the tables turned, NO IGNORING WC’S WISHES FROM THE USUAL DOLTS WHO CANNOT RECOGNIZE THAT THEIR STUFF SUCKS IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WC PRESENTS |
If i ever decide to do a second Youtube channel (as some other channels that i have follow have done), it might be primarily focused on the affordable spectrum of things. For now, my channel is strictly dedicated to the Ultra High End and i don’t think a zip cord has any sort of "place" near a pair of XLF or Magico M6. |
Jay, Good post, except for one small but crucial point. You have definitely opened up to the possibility that great performance can be had at cheap prices, and not merely great performance per dollar. However, you haven't, and don't want to, discover that zip cord offers the best clarity of most any speaker cable, although it sacrifices bass/midrange fullness, which I consider relative bloat and fuzz. Next, the Rane EQ. For $200 on eBay, you could try it. As a line stage only, it probably doesn't equal the transparency of the Soulution 725 although it is more transparent than many, but the tremendous utility of the EQ function creates unique, vital benefits that you have yet to experience. Your quest is to experience any high performance equipment you can procure (you are willing to take a chance on the newest Luxman which won't be cheap), so why not have an open mind about zip and EQ? If you want to try what may be a SOTA EQ, read the latest Stereophile review about the Accuphase EQ for $25K, but it would be prudent to first dip your toe in the water with the Rane ME 60 (original version--the newer ME 60S is colored--deference to RIAA's point about newer not necessarily being better). Next, the Benchmark AHB2 amp. You probably would prefer the relative warmth of your G Essence, Constellation, etc., but you would respect the AHB2's clarity/neutrality. Since you won't be able to get the Soulution 700 amps at an attractive price, the 725 preamp + AHB2 would give you the complete Soulution sound at a sensible price. Read the latest posts of yyzsantabarbara on the LSA Voyager GaN thread. He has lived with the AHB2 for a long time, and has found nothing more truthful/transparent. NO, I am not going to pay $3000 to buy the AHB2 for you. You spend more on shipping fees. Your total shipping fees amount to as much as what some people spend on their whole high performance systems. NO SNEERING REMARKS FROM THE USUAL SUSPECTS WITH CLOSED MINDS. |
Part 2: today at 11am ET Is this the best speaker I've owned? You will know today! https://youtu.be/77VTbw1ZowA |
Thanks to those of you standing behind me. Just earlier today i had a back and forth discussion here with RIAA in regards to the new Luxman amp that is being released later this year. He presented his points (which i acknowledged) and i presented mine and we moved on and everything is cool. The reason why i bring this up is because i sometimes don’t understand why discussions continue to linger about the same subject matter and one in particular is HOW do we turn a 3k system into a 50k system killer? Look, if this were true, I’d be the first one to acknowledge and follow it. I hate to repeat it again but wasn’t i the one who rated the Gryphon Essence as the second best Gryphon amplifier? Isn’t that the cheapest amp they make today? I don’t want to come off as close- minded but i simply DO NOT see an affordable component displacing the better and more extreme audio components. Someone above nailed it: WHY would I want to have all this money invested if there was indeed something much better for less money? One additional thing I’ve noticed is that some people ARE looking for value and this is what qualifies as "the best audio components" for them and i totally understand it. I’m not judging. However, IF it is value or price/performance what they are after, im sorry to say that this thread is probably NOT GOING TO HELP YOU. I’ve never explicitly said I’m chasing price/performance or bang for the buck - NOT ONCE HAVE I SAID THAT. If throughout my journey i run into price/performance components then I’ll be sure to share these findings with you (this is what I did with the Essence). In conclusion, I’m not against anyone finding what best suits their needs because that’s what matters at the end of the day. I don’t contribute any money to their purchases so my input on their purchases means NOTHING. If someone feels as if this thread is the same repetitive conversations or chit chat then maybe it is because we are engaged in conversations that have to do with gear that isn’t of any interest to you? That could very well be the case - just think about it and you’ll see the writing is on the wall. By the way, I’m NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYONE HERE with this long post. I watched what i said carefully and tried to tastefully get my message across. I am still willing to shake hands and have a few drinks with ANYONE HERE and talk audio. I don't hold grudges against ANYONE even if we might have disagreed at some point. This is audio and i have not taken ANYTHING personal from ANY of you. The garbage man that stole my money would be the only one in the hospital if someone pointed him out to me in public 😂 |
