My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
but have you personally heard the effect on large panel speakers (electrostatics or Maggies) in small rooms? These large panels have deficient bass anyway, so room correction yields less benefit than when applied to large dynamic speakers with much more bass. The problem with large panels is lousy imaging and bloating effects, in all except huge rooms.
WHAT?????? The above quoted paragraph has so many generalizations that don't match at all to my experiences of owning Magnepan and SoundLab speaker for the better part of 20 years.
I know you make all these claims of time-smearing with the SoundLab and I won't even go there as your experience with these products is clearly limited to what you have read about or what you heard in a show room. But let me educate you that the SL speakers have a bass output to rival many dynamic speakers with similarly claimed bass response. If you did not hear this, then that was the fault of the amp(s) driving them, or a poorly implemented system elsewhere.
I have reported here before that in my basement room, there were considerable bass nodes that were measured....three of them below 250 hz. A Rives PARC unit did an outstanding job to take care of this and bring the bass back into check. But it also destroyed the musicality of the system to clock-radio performance. Any bandaid system such as this will have similar results. We talk about the simplicity of our preamps and amps, with minimal gain stages, fewest components, the greatest volume control on earth, etc., and then we turn right around with a black box full of circuitry of IC's and mediocre passive parts and a multitude of connections and cables, and we are ok with this? .... no thanks. I brought the speakers a few more feet out into the room which resulted in a far better outcome than what the PARC had provided. Without being able to do this, the conclusion would have been that these SL's were not a good fit to this room. Oh, and I had stage placement and decays tat I rarely hear in any show rooms so I don't know where "lousy imaging and bloating" comes from; I assume it's from what you have read or hear in a setup for which you are unfamiliar.
With the SL's on one side of the 18x23x8 upper floor room of my home, the bass energy is as good as I could ever ask for with music. Unless I need to hear low frequency computer generated special effects from HT sources, which are often best served by subwoofers, I will take the SLs' bass performance and tonal coherency any day over a dynamic speaker.
Boulder is a great brand to deal with for sure. I just never got my feet to tap when playing the 2060. Techno: the Magico tweeter gives you nice detail but You must know how to match components with it. There’s zero room for error with it. I am happy with my s5 mk2. It’s an ultra detailed speaker. I would be totally ok staying with them for many years. They aren’t massive, they weigh a lot but they don’t take over your room with their size. I love that about them. The focal sopra 3 were good for the money but the Magico had more stuff happening between the speakers that I didn’t quite hear as clear with other speakers. as of today, NOT ONE Magico s5 mk2 has been listed. Why ? Because in order to top it you’ll need to make a serious investment that many just don’t want to do. I find the Magico s5 mk2 better than the Sonus faber cremonese that I owned.
jafox, Your post is interesting, but doesn't answer the question I posed to grey9hound about whether large panel speakers will do well in a small room with the Lyngdorf. Your 18x23 room is fairly large, so it would accommodate most SoundLabs without room correction, although there is the possibility that room correction might help. I find that a good distance of over 6 feet to the back wall is very effective with my Audiostatic 240's, so room correction electronics might pose a disadvantage. Which SL do you have? No, I have personally heard the A3 and Ultimate several times at my friends' homes, as well as at dealers' places. As electrostatics, they certainly beat dynamics for the reasons we both agree on. But I hear the ML CLX as being just about the best of breed in its focus and detail, for the reasons I have said, except it is clearly deficient in bass. The large SL's are probably comparable to the stat panel of the ML Neolith in their range. I have not heard the Neolith, and would guess that the large SL has the advantage in bass coherence and detail with the rest of the range.
WC, right. For dynamic speakers, stay with your present Magico for a good long time. For a move toward more purity/resolution, the ML CLX plus woofer would give the best performance, on an absolute basis and value per big dollar spent.
WC, I’ve spent the last several weeks reading this thread from the beginning. What a journey you’ve been on. It’s great to read real life reviews on gear. This has been great for me as I prepare to upgrade my front end. I purchased Salon 2s about 6 months ago. Not your cup of tea I know, but since you’ve had them a couple of times I’d like to ask your opinion on pairing them with the Luxman 509x integrated, another piece that you spoke highly of. Would the Luxman drive these in your opinion?
I listen to mostly rock and alternative. No classical, blues or jazz for me. I have a large room (20x26) and listen at 90 to 95 dbs. I currently use an Emotiva XMC-1 processor and XPR-2 amp for music. I know I need to upgrade these to get the most out of the salons. I’m leaning towards a preamp first but if I get an integrated and kill two birds with one stone, that would be ideal. Thanks all!
Just a quick thanks to everyone for sharing and to WC, especially, for starting this thread two years ago today. Wishing everyone the best on the journey and grateful to learn from everyone's experiences and perspectives.
snafujg, Aren't the Emotiva products great? I almost bought the newer XPA 3rd generation amp. (I haven't heard the newest more powerful Reference.) It was powerful, although strangely it shut down at the levels needed to drive my inefficient 75 dB electrostatics with impedance of 1 ohm in the highs. Tonally it was close to my great Bryston 2.5B SST2 for its detail and neutrality, although slightly warmer. There are no SS artifacts. People who say the Emotiva is harsh are just addicted to warm/lush sounds. The Emotiva is just quite neutral and satisfying. For your hotly recorded rock/alternative music, I think you would love it. It is amazing how Emotiva amps can sound near SOTA for so little money. This is a sad commentary on many uber expensive amps out there, some of which I have personally tried at home and which are ripoffs. As you know, you can try Emotiva risk free for 30 days. According to Emotiva forums, the XPA series has a different sound than the XPR.
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 1 & Gen2 Amps are harsh when driven hard. I have owned Gen1 and Gen 2 both. If you drive them very hard at all they become Harsh. Viber6, I am beginning to think that you believe a harsh sound is normal. The Emotiva XPA- is also Bass heavy. It is a Great bass amp. I agree that they are great for the money , BUT if driven very hard , they can be harsh
I had an XPA Gen 3 7 channel amp, and I thought it sounded very nice - especially for the money. I ended up returning it - it was a little thinner sounding than I liked. Plenty of power and dynamics though. Dave
grey9hound, As I recall, you like rock/pop/jazz music. This tends to be played at louder levels than I listen for classical music. I understand your preference for laid back sound, because your music heard close up at live levels tends to be "harsh", excuse the expression. But what you might describe as harsh, others describe and crave the raw, raspy excitement of it. You would hear the same things as others, but describe it as harsh and prefer it toned down. As your preference, that is OK for your taste. As you know, my perspective is that of a musician/participant, so what I hear in classical music as a close-up performer is much more detailed than any concertgoer hears. If you sat with me at my music stand, you might describe the sound as harsh, but I describe it as exciting. A few professional musicians here, such as mayoradamwest and mrdecibel have corroborated my findings. In fact, sometimes professionals insist on special barriers to prevent hearing damage when percussion and brass instruments blast off behind them. I have seen a few patients in their 20's with documented hearing damage from playing in rock bands a few years earlier. I am thankful classical music can be enjoyed at much lower volumes. My exciting sound at 90-95 dB peaks is safe, but not at much higher volumes.
Well Viber6, you have me wrong . .I’ll just leave it at that. A laid back sound also allows you to play louder without being harsh , or ripping your ears off. I too listen mostly at 90-95 db peaks.
grey9hound, While taking a walk today, I heard the raucous sound of honking horns from American cars (Japanese cars honk politely like the "beep beep" of Road Runner the cartoon character). At about 80-85 dB, the honks are not ripping your ears off, but it is clear that their tone is raucous and would be unpleasant at louder levels. The tone of brass horns like the trumpet, trombone, sax, French horn, tuba has similarities to the honking car/truck horn. This is real life. Your statement that a laid back sound allows you to play louder without being harsh is certainly true, but it is not relevant to the quest for high fidelity to the lifelike qualities of real sound, in both correct volumes and accurate tonality. Real, live music is sweet and soothing much of the time, but there are raspy moments here and there which punctuate the sweet sound and make it interesting, providing variety and dynamic range. You could also consider the tonal spectrum from sweet to raucous as having a "dynamic" range of sorts.
I heard both the Magico M3 and the Neolith. I like them both. But, I really liked the Neoliths. Although I heard them with the Dan D'Agostino amps and pre-amp at the 2018 RMAF. I also heard them with Audio Research REF 750 amps and REF 10 at the 2017 RMAF. Absolutely wonderful. Sound.
I don't remember what the Magico M3s were paired with, but they sounded great also.
My vote is Neolith.
I know you are using the REF 10 pre-amp, but what amp are you currently using?
Viber6, I agree .UNAMPLIFIED live music is not Harsh. I concur that live unamplified music can be loud enough to be annoying, but is not harsh . My point is that when amplified is when it sometimes can be harsh, My music is amplified . So what is your point again. My point is that if I turn mine up a bit (since it is somewhat laid back ) i have more head room before it becomes harsh , distorted or clipped by the amp. It sounds LIVE when turned up , but also gives me nothing harsh. The point that i am making is that most highly resolving , up front systems that put you in the first or second row can play ok at moderate levels , but because they are perfect sounding this way, they tend to get bright or harsh when turned up to higher concert or Live party type of levels.
@minorl I would go with the Martin Logan if you want real bass. I have never heard either,though . It looks like they can do real bass as compared to the M3 It looks like F3 on the Neolith is about 23HZ The Magico M3 really doesn't say ,except that the freq response is 24HZ to 50KHZ. That tells me that at 24HZ , they are most likely 6DB down. I have not heard either , but it is hard to get a lot of Bass out of 7inch woofers compared to a 15 and a 12
I’m a Magico fan so I vote M3s which I have heard over at Suncoast Audio many times with all sorts of amps,preamps and DACs. They always have sounded superb and would be my ultimate goal if I had a bigger room. My S3Mk2s are probably a better choice for my 11x14 foot room and I have no desire for bigger. The only times I have listened to Martin Logan speakers has been at Bestbuys Magnolia rooms and more than likely not set up optimally. I must admit it’s a bigger sound image but its thinner than I like. if I was a big classical music fan I would be happy with them. What impresses me with Magicos is the quickness and detail of the music with still a lot of meat on the bones sound. The fact that I wouldn’t have the room to deploy them properly is also a big consideration.
grey9hound, I think we basically agree on most points discussed. It is also telling that your last paragraph admits that upfront systems sound like the 1st row. Exactly my perspective! I don't know if you go to classical music concerts, but people have found most of the music from the 1st row to have SPL of 35-85 dB, occasionally down to 20 dB and up to 95 dB, and rarely only in certain big pieces up to 105 dB peaks on percussion. Sustained loud brass instruments only reach 90-95 dB. Live unamplified music has clarity at these levels, which are much lower than many audiophile amplified systems where they feel a need to make it louder to get the missing clarity at true live levels or to just rock out in "hifi" style. I find with neutral amps with extended HF, I am happy listening with the clarity at the modest levels of live classical music, but with laid back rolled off HF amps I am not happy unless I push the volume to higher unnatural levels. But at that point, I still don't get the clarity, and actually find the unnaturally loud levels HARSH. How about that!
grey9hound, On a related subject, people have written about how Maggies don't sing unless cranked up to loud levels. (WC has noted the same thing about the ATI 6005 amp.) This is an admission that at low/modest levels, the clarity is not up to snuff. That means the speaker has problems with resolution, etc. A good system must have absolute clarity at all volume levels, which is certainly true of live, unamplified music. It can be true of amplified music as well, assuming that we are seeking a totally transparent, accurate amp, the so-called straight wire with gain.
Snafujg: who told you I don’t like revel salon 2? They are awesome speskers for the money. However, I wouldn’t use a Luxman integrated with them. They need something like a gryphon Diablo 300 at the very least. Revel needs quality juice and they sounded their best in my room with the ref10 and the Simaudio 860a amp. That combo was magical. Trust me on this !
I’m revisiting the Martin Logan Neolith option once again. My fear here is trying something so large and not finding it good for my room. The opinion of the Neolith is all over the map. Some say it’s amazing, the very best and others say it’s not coherent, too boomy in the bass etc. I’ve heard it twice but I can’t say I heard it the way I need to hear it. It was a fast listening session with that music that they play at Disney. My ears can’t tell a difference if I play material I don’t know. Bringing that elephant of a speaker, the logistics, the money I need to pay others to help me bring them inside and then not liking them is something that is keeping me from taking them. Lastly, unfortunately I’m not the type of person that goes to a dealer to audition something and with intentions of buying from someone else. I feel somewhat embarrassed unless it’s magnolia Best Buy then yes I don’t care to go in there. The pair I have available at a good deal is crated and ready to ship so I can’t hear it. Decisions...
WC, snafujg had mentioned reading the entire thread. My recollection from previous reading was also that you were not really enamored with the Revel Salon 2. I think it's just how you came across in previous posts in this thread.
@whitecamaross I think in your room you would need Lyngdorf with something like the Neoliths , I think that they would be boomy
otherwise
. My Tekton DIs are boomy in my room without Lyngdorf . You have been talking about trying it . That would be the right time ... with the Neoliths
@whitecamaross Since this is essentially a thread about amps I would like to make a suggestion to try the Lyngdorf 3400 room correction integrated. I recently ran into the situation where I could not get a floor stander speaker, the Magico A3, into a 10W x 11.5L x 9H office space. I was bummed that I could not make this work with the 2 integrated I had in mind, Luxman 509x or Mark Levinson 585. It would have been too boomy.
However, after some research on here and after speaking to Neal Van Berg a dealer at soundsciencecat.com about the Lyngdorf 3400. I am going to buy the Magico A3 (from another dealer) and also buy the Lyngdorf from him to tame the room. I have not heard the Lyngdorf but have heard all the other components I have listed above.
Whitecamaross, since you have so much experience with various amps your feedback on this very popular room correction system would be very enlightening. Maybe you can get a demo unit from Neal for a home trial. He is pretty confident on the quality of the Lyngdorf and free publicity on the most popular A’Gon thread cannot hurt.
He would likely say the Neolith would work in your room along with the Vivids (especially them since they can be against the back wall). One more thing that this unit can do is output the DSP corrected signal to an separate analog amp. This give you some flexibility if you do not like the Class D on the Lyngdorf.
grey9hound, Yes, I understand how the Lyngdorf could tame the boominess of your Tektonics in a small room. I think this works because the speaker uses different drivers for well-defined frequency ranges and the imaging is probably tight so there is a relatively coherent image. But a huge stat panel like the Neolith is like having many full range drivers spread out over a large area with so much duplication and radiating in many directions that the image is diffuse and confused. Put another way, if you take a mini monitor pair which gives a tight image, and then use 30 pairs of mini monitors stacked horizontally and vertically, you will get a diffuse lousy image with poor clarity. So, even though electrostatic transducers are superior to dynamic ones in many ways, when implemented poorly as in huge curved patterns, such a big stat can be inferior to a good dynamic in many ways. In my early days, using the Maggie Tympani 1D, I loved the big panel sound, but grew tired of the diffuse imaging which wrecked the clarity. My next speaker was the little Rogers 3/5A mini monitor, which was so superior in overall clarity to that Maggie. I believe the Lyngdorf works to correct boomy bass in dynamic speakers, but its ability to correct the errors of large panel imaging is limited.
WC, the preceding paragraph illustrates why I think you would be taking a BIG risk going for the Neoliths. You already have experience with the CLX and love it. The midrange and HF come from a narrow panel which gives it focus and clarity, and the larger midbass panel gives it the spaciousness you would like. Just add the appropriate woofer which would give you everything you want. The brand of woofer would require more research, but a dynamic woofer would be right. Instead of making the elephantine Neolith, ML should have just designed a dynamic woofer to add to the CLX. The CLX bass panel goes down to 56Hz, so the woofer would be used and optimized for only a small range, unlike the hybrid models like the 15a where the woofer is used up to about 200-300 Hz where the purity of the electrostatic transducer is bastardized by the dynamic woofer getting into the lower midrange. Trust me on this. If you are still hesitant, you could live happily ever after with your present Magico.
Thanks WC. You confirmed my suspicion. I know that combo (ref10 & 860a) really impressed you. The ref10 is out of reach for me financially, though. The 860a used may be possible. I’ll continue my search for a preamp. There’s a Luxman c900f on here but it’s in Israel. Maybe I’ll get lucky and one will pop up on here from the US soon.....the XPR2 I’m using now puts out 600 watts so i think I’m ok in the amp section for now.
WC , I agree with Viber advice. Stay Magico, or go up their line, or add lightning quick subwoofers... You are a dynamic speakers kind of guy, every electrostatic will disappoint you sooner or later.
I have a feeling some users are pushing Lyngdorf big time, it’s not even fun anymore...I feel being caught in a marketing opération...
Focal ? Remember you said the Magico tweeter is better than the Focal. Even if you go Scala Evo, same tweeter as in the Sopra 3. Also, same midrange cone material, only the magnet motor changes for multiple small ones arranged like a flower.
WCSS, Just curious as to what your room dimensions are? Also, did you use Anthem Room Correction with the Martin Logan 15a speakers? ML Neolith will work if they can be placed at least 3 feet from the back wall, and 8 feet apart, and you have the room dampened properly. I have not heard them, so I’m not sure if bass boom would be a problem in your listening space. A lot rests on the speed of the Neolith woofers, and I myself have not heard them.
I can only say that the imaging from a ML 15a or CLX is premium over dynamic speakers when the room has the proper drapes and carpeting, and other sound tricks at the back wall behind the speakers. There is only one brand of woofers to add to the Martin Logans (under $5k for two) that have the speed to keep up with these electrostatics. IMHO, you will get the best results with what you have been refusing to do (adding 2 REL S series to the ML 15a or CLX).
Hardwood floors and even giant flat screen TVs placed behind the speakers will make electrostatics sound thin. Having some way to have some type of cloth drape over the TV when listening gets the rear reflections from it out of the equation. Carpet up to your listening position is prefered.
The last 2 rooms I had my Martin Logan in.... (other homes) had the worst acoustics and shape. My new home is 29’ by 32’, with a full height Stone Fireplace at the back wall. Best room I’ve ever had, ever.
What a difference dampened back and side walls can make to the sound. Also there are ways to add more damping for peanuts to the back and sides as well. You don’t have to spend all your cash on the professional stuff. Throw pillows, stuffed animals and Mexican rugs on walls are just some suggestions.
The only music that seems to be not as good with electrostatics is Rock Music with a lot of electric instruments all playing at once. I have a JBL Professional Series system w/sub for that. But I haven’t heard anything better than Martin Logans with REL subs for that soundstage that they offer at their price point. Magico, Wilson Alexx and a whole bunch of speakers costing as much as a BMW have their place. For under 30k with subs, the CLX or ML 15a will bring the listener (in my opinion) to a place where dynamic drivers and their crossovers cannot.
Let me know the size of your room, and where the windows are in it. Thanks.
“I have a feeling some users are pushing Lyngdorf big time, it’s not even fun anymore...I feel being caught in a marketing operation”
Glad to hear I’m not the only one sick of these guys pushing/pimping Lyngdorf. Yeah, it may just be the greatest thing ever, but it gets tiring to hear these fan-boys pushing it every second post. WE GOT IT ALREADY! and so does WCSS.
WC, great advice from techno_dude and bigddesign3 above. Don't waste your money and time with the Focal, Dynaudio, Wilson. I have not heard all the models, but I have heard a few of each. As dynamic speakers, they are likely inferior to your Magico for detail/resolution and overall great sound in a nice relatively small package. Getting a bigger Magico will be counterproductive for your relatively small room, although Lyngdorf room correction may do wonders. However, Magico has designed your model S5 to be optimized for smaller rooms, so I don't see the point of getting a bigger Magico only to "correct" it with the Lyngdorf. And the bigger Magicos are way too expensive and still would not compete in resolution to the CLX or even the Neolith. To get better resolution, the best move would be the CLX with the REL woofer--thanks to bigddesign3. Even then, your Magico would be worth keeping as an alternate system for rocking out. She may not be perfect, but how would you feel dumping her? Save your money for speakers rather than amps. This way you have the best electrostatic and the best dynamic speakers for what each does well. When you get those big expensive mono amps in Nov, ask yourself how much of an improvement you get relative to your good BAT, and then contemplate how much greater benefit you will get by adding the CLX-REL system for much less money. Then you can keep the Magico as an alternate.
I will try one of the Merrill Elements soon. It seems like the 116 is the most popular, providing nearly all of the benefit of the 118 for "only" $22K rather than $36K. Search A-gon under Merrill Element to read the glowing review of the 116 from a professional musician, a Professor of Percussion. WOW. I've seen enough reviews to pique my interest. Now it remains to audition a unit that has enough time on it, as Guido has advised. Maybe wait to find out about the 114, which will probably be much less than $20K, and likely a great value.
WC, you have a long, happy audio life awaiting you. It is prudent to be patient to see what technology brings in the future. This is obviously true with computers and phones. Don't blow a lot of money now. Spend relatively modestly for great sound per dollar.
@spinnaker01 No you don’t "Got it already" and neither does WCSS or technodude. ... not until you hear it @Viber6 Please stop assuming you know what Lyngdorf will do or not do with Neoliths or panels . You do not know. . Besides that ,Lyngdorf corrects the Room , not the speakers.
I’ve heard the CLX. I’d get the CLX if you ate ok with the size. I don’t think any other box speaker will give that big open resolving soundstage that the CLX will give you.
grey9hound, I am awaiting your comment about using the Lyngdorf with big panel speakers. If you have no experience with that, you don't know either. Lacking that experience, I can only speculate on theoretical grounds why it works for dynamic speakers but maybe not for large panels whose footprint is much larger. Of course, you are right that the Lyngdorf corrects the room, not the speakers. But it is more or less a semantic discussion, because the room and speaker work as a team.
My room is about 18 feet wide and 24 long, but i sit about 8-9 feet away. i got confirmation that the focal scala evo is far superior to the sopra 3. i was told it is more refined, more relaxed and better bottom end. Again, i don't really know. I am going to be looking for an "interim" speaker until i locate a pair of magico m3 speakers. The ones i was going to buy unfortunately sold already so let's see. My thoughts for "interim" speakers are:
Martin Logan 15a Martin logan 13a Focal Scala Evo Wilson Audio Alexia 1 Dynaudio Confidence 60 (to be released in December) Revel Salon 2s
Those are pretty much speakers that i can handle in terms of size and weight and not much of a pain to ship once i find the M3 magicos. i am not really contemplating anything else at this time.
Opinions regarding equipment, even repeated ones, are OK with me. Even if I get tired of seeing repeated posts on something, I can just skip the posts - easy enough. Why complain about it? Each of us have equipment that we might be passionate about and want to have WC try out. For example, I keep seeing repeated posts about the CLX, Merrills, Tektons, etc. Who knows, maybe the Lyngdorf folks are tired of hearing about those.
I too had suggested a Lyngdorf product at some point in the pages of this thread. And, it was really inexpensive too, especially considering the prices of amps and speakers that WC has been evaluating. The Rane EQ was also suggested - at a ridiculously low price. Some folks are purists and do not want to try these products, and I believe that WC falls into that camp. Opportunities have arisen that are easily with reach for WC, and he has passed on all of them. It's obvious to me that he will never try one of these types of products. However, I don't penalize folks for continuing to try :-) Dave
WCSS, The Magico M3 would, without a doubt be a perfect speaker for your room. Your room is large enough to handle most all size speakers without a port. The M3 bass extension is only in the upper thirties. This would be sufficient, but going into the low 20’s with bass extension would enhance things. To me, the M3 is a end game speaker.
They mate perfect too with my REL friends, if you feel you want full range. I’m so glad that your room is the proper size for achieving the pinnacle of sound systems.
I listen 9’ away, and Montis is 6’ apart center to center, and 3’ from the back wall . Montis is slightly toed in, but not as much as the Martin Logan flashlight test. Having the Montis separated at only 6’ from each other dilutes the few degrees more toe-in that is recommended. I have a soft chair centered, that is a clone of the Maxell Man Chair of the ads years ago. Just made of cloth though. Finishing touches is (3) blue aquarium lights placed low for effect on the back wall (Stone Fireplace). Took me about 9 months and a whole lot of amplifiers and cables to get everything up to the standards that I have.
It makes me wonder about how much better that ML 15a would sound in my room, with the Anthem Room Correction. I’m at "WOW" with the Montis and RELs now. I also have 2 more REL S3s sitting in a box, but I have decided that just 2 RELs is plenty. REL S3s, having a 10" front firing driver and a 12" carbon fiber passive radiator shooting downward creates the volume of a 15" woofer when needed. And it makes for perfect symmetry at all sound levels, even low listening sessions. A few years from now, I can see a yearning for a used set of 15a Martin Logans. Happy travels. I see you taking the right path to sonic freedom and euphoria.
I can tell you without a doubt that WC will not be disappointed with the Martin Logan Neolith speakers.
I don't know where this is coming from that eventually one will be disappointed with electrostatics. Where is that coming from?
I have had electrostatics for quite some time. Sequel IIs and Monolith IIIs. Also, I have several friends that have electrostatics and they are quite happy. I use my Monolith IIIs with the Krell KBX balanced electronic crossover designed for the Monolith IIIs, with a Audio Research REF 6 pre-amp, REF 2SE phono stage, REF 250 amps (for the uppeer panels), Mark Levinson 23.5 amp for the woofers, Audio Research DAC 8, Sota Star vacuum turntable, SME IV arm and I am quite happy. Oh Yeah!!!!
My imaging is wonderful. The soundstage wide and accurate, dimensionality, spot on.
I spoke with the Martin Logan representatives at the RMAF and they said the Neolith was based on the Monolith III Speakers. I also spoke with Gale Sanders while he was demonstrating his new speakers at the RMAF and he grinned, took me aside and said quietly that the Monolith III speakers are still the best today. Especially with the KBX crossover and peerless woofers.
So, WC can go with the Magico speakers and will also not be disappointed. I realy like those speakers. But, don't let the words of people that don't own electrostatics, or are biased against them turn you away from them.
The bass response I am getting is spot on and accurate as measured by monitoring equipment. I actually added a subwoofer to see if it was needed and guess what? it wasn't. It didn't add anything. So I removed it.
As usual, the room, room treatment, appurtenant equipment, etc. play a great role in the speakers. as well as speaker setup. Which many people flat out get wrong.
I'll take the Neoliths in an instant. The 15a's too me weren't better than the Monolith IIIs with the KBX crossover to justify changing. But the Neoliths and If I had the room, the statement II's (I'd take in an instant also).
In my opinion, speakers are (to me) the hardest piece to decide on.
I ordered new upper panels for the Monolith IIIs from Martin Logan. I was thinking that my panels that I replaced in 2006 were maybe light on the highs. so I ordered new panels. Turns out they were fine. Other things affected the highs that I corrected. But, I'll have new panels next week anyway.
If you aren't a serial killer, bring your favorite music over and you will see (hear) that the Martin Logan's are accurate and really sing.
As a former (sigh!) musician. First chair violinist. Sax, Bassoon, Oboe, etc. I can tell you that in my opinion accuracy is most important to me. If it doesn't sound accurate and is altered (too much bass, instruments don't sound real, etc.) I'm leaving.
WC, don’t waste your time with the Alexia. Your S5 mkii are superior speakers. An audio friend of mine has compared the Alexia to the new canadian Verity Audio Parsifal Anniversary, and he said the Parsifal walks over the Alexia...
Never forget your Magico casing and bracing is full aluminum, Alexias are not. Magico casing is state of the art, the cream on the top. Realise what you got.
About Scala Evo sounding more refined than Sopra 3, imho this is retailer sale talk.
WC, I have personally heard the Focal Scala Evo as well as the ML 15a
at the
2018
Montreal Audio Fest. Both speaker sets were my favorites among all the speaker sets present.
Difficult to say which one was better, since listening to them in a hotel room, with different ancilliary equipment makes it virtually impossible to sort them out.
However, if I was in a market to purchase some speakers, these would be on my short list.
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