This is some childish stuff you guys are engaging in. Sorry but this doesn’t do much for me and that my opinion on it. It’s still ok if you choose this don’t get me wrong I’m just stating my opinion. Ignoring those you don’t want to hear from is the best way. If you don’t want to hear this ignore it. I don’t understand why tensions are so high. This is just an audio thread nothing more. If you enjoy the thread great, if not that’s ok too. You have a right to agree or disagree but it’s not reason to let this stuff get under skin. I happen to like most of the things here. Anyway just thought I’d share. Lol! IMHO
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Haven't been around for awhile, summertime and picnics, golf and just great family times. But I recently came across this: Watch "Amazing Million Dollar Speakers - Acapella Sphaeron - Interview with the Owner - Best in the World??" on YouTube Wonder how those speakers would sound in Jay's room with his new gear? If they would even fit? 😉 |
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Well, I just inserted 3 transparent opus power cords in my system. One for the 3010, one for the music server and one for the qsource power supply. My intent: to finish off the entire system with a full loom of transparent. That said, hmm 🤔 the system went backwards with some songs. What PCs did I remove? I removed the audioquest dragon from the 3010, shunyata omega QRS from music server and nordost Odin 1 from qsource. I know my system takes 2-3 days to show me what a cable added or substracted. Cold cables (those that haven't been used in a few days) sound warmer or less detailed when first inserted in the system but they come around a few days later. Let's see if the system comes back around by Friday. I think I had it extremely dialed in and I was just trying to finish with the cable loom. I'll keep you guys posted. On a different topic, I received some footers from a manufacturer that reached out to me and I plan to use them under the dac and music server (one component at a time) and let's see what the system does (maybe do this over the weekend) Lastly, per Boulder instructions, I separated the power supply of the 3010 and placed it far away. Boulder claims that the sound improves and I have to agree. Lots of stuff happening guys. |
My 2 cents (for all it's worth) - it's really tough to say an amplifier with 120 bipolar, paralleled output transistors is the most transparent in the world (see below). Also, Magico tweeters aren't linear above 90dbs as measurements show - it's tough in a sealed box. That said, with more efficient speakers (92db+) I've discovered you don't need to turn up the volume to get the dynamics you crave. I actually just heard a baby Boulder/Wilson system at a local dealer and it was quite easy to notice coming home. Horns and the 100db crowd is a different thing to me, and there are definitely more trade-offs at that level, but that crowd wants SET amps for the simplest path and is will to do so. I auditioned Duos extensively in my well documented search on WBF and was one of my finalists. Ultimately I was worried about fatigue. Now, speakers are personal but in lower efficiency land, I find YG Sonjas superior - more micro dynamics, coherent, and with a superior hybrid tweeter. Also disappear more and measure better (if that's your thing). They won't have the bass output of the S7 though. I do find it interesting that the recent YT vids are about "most transparent system" ever rather than most musical one. So yeah, I'll guess the Magicos/Boulder are gone in 6 months if anything just to drive more channel interest :) Best of luck, Jay. Give you credit for all the work you put in - not many have that much free time!
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Thank you
The thing with "musical" traits is that I've been there , done that... If I wanted musicality, I'd bring sonus Faber Aida and arc 750se with ref10 preamp and I'm done. My issue is that everything sounds the same with tubes plus Mephisto monos pretty much smoked my VAC set up (most people agreed). I'm completely submersed in highly revealing presentations right now. Yes, of course I will eventually change something but there are many different things I've been doing behind the scenes in video form which will be exclusive content for my members only section on my website (coming soon). I'll be transparent here before anywhere else, there is the possibility of me bringing a vivid audio speaker but I don't have space and I can't sell the s7 without trying something else and being convinced that I prefer it over my S7. Today , I'm recording content for my members where I'll be showing the new footers I'm evaluating. Maybe next week I'll be recording content with vivid audios in my room next week? Lastly, musicality is cool and all but everything sounds the same man...
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IMHO "if everything sounds the same" with a highly musical system, then something is very wrong. Usually, the front end is the reason that so many folks make this statement and a revision of the front end ( or an addition to) is required. The choice of software and the genre that the listener is using can also be a factor. There are so many genres and styles in music that it is usually a great option to explore what is out there. IME, listening to just the best sounding recordings can lead to ’music fatigue’...even though as a’philes we are all guilty of this. It really is too bad that there are so few superb sounding and musical sounding releases (relatively). |
Here "musicality" is defined by engineering technology perspective concept: tube versus digital... "musicality" in acoustic experience is the complete opposite meaning, everyhthing sound more individual, because of "timbre" expression... Timbre is a precise acoustic and musical concept and experience that has nothing to do first with "tubes" versus "digital" but first and last with the system/room/ears-brain.... This illustrate how people listen more to a piece of gear than to the integral system acoustic experience... Debate about tubes versus digital are beside the main important point: how to optimize a system for the optimal "timbre" experience in s specific room ....Never mind the price point...It is an acoustic and even an psycho-acoustic problem in very small room... But i apologize for this truth....I am in a thread for top high end gear and i own a 500 bucks one... 😁😊
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That is factually not true, the YG do not measure better then Magico, nor many other speakers, and you can easily look it up. There is a lot more to a speaker than the flat on-axis response, which is the only thing the YG has to offer, its not nearly enough and some will argue not desirable (I used to buy in to that, but not any more - the A5 clearly demonstrated it for me). I have been reading your commentary on the Magico for many years, I have to say, you either never heard them set up properly, or your objectives are totally unclear to me. You searched for years for the “perfect speakers” you bought the YG’s, but you never were able to get them to work. That should tell u something. |
@jays_audio_lab I agree loom's are important. One should take the time to find what loom works best with their system, synergy is important and wire/cable looms are what helps to pull it all together. I enjoy your video's and posts though at times disagree. Keep up the nice work. I also enjoy that OCD guy too. |
The idea, approach, and concept of using a single "loom" of cable is almost guaranteed to produce and result in a satisfactory outcome however that outcome is highly unlikely to be much better than "satisfactory" and that is because of the flawed, erroneous, mistaken "logic" applied to this. If you use that reasoning you will buy something like a McIntosh system and use all McIntosh electronics and speakers because you want it all the same but as you can see that makes no sense. But the choice of a single "loom" can make you feel safe, comfortable, and secure which I sense will be desirable and preferable to many in this thread who are very emotional and very sensitive people as has been demonstrated previously in this thread. |
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I think it's a couple things. First, the presentations are pretty close - it's kinda hard to tell much difference unless you are really concentrating and not letting your mind wander. And that's kinda difficult when we have no idea what we're comparing against - it's just a big black hole. Better to tell us what the two contenders are to keep our interest, but keep it blind so we don't know which is which -- but at least we know what is in play. imo |
@clearthink A nice thought about high resolution audio files on Drop Box, etc. However, I think the idea is to get folks to watch the videos on YT and to continue building the subscribers. If WC provided these high resolution audio files, then some/many folks might skip YT altogether and only use the high resolution files. This would somewhat defeat the purpose for the YT channel. The only alternative I can think of is something where WC can charge monthly for the high resolution files. Dave |
@rpeluso Not sure I understand the response. I do understand however that a person who puts in hours and hours week after week of putting together equipment/presentations, recordings, working out sales/purchases, consulting with folks, etc, in addition to day job, family and personal life - that person deserves the chance to make a buck for their efforts. Dave |
++100 @thezaks |
I appreciate the comment above. Unfortunately, some people simply won’t understand that. They want to walk through life only looking out for themselves. I know some folks don’t give a damn about the work i put in (which is fine) and if it were up to them, I’d be their slave doing this 24/7 for free and THEY’D STILL COMPLAIN. I don’t have time to do community service for the masses...there’s only 24hrs in a day and i have to do what moves the needles for me and my family. A man that can’t comprehend that should not be on here reading anything I’m typing daily and that’s not someone I’d want to talk to anyhow. Only those men with families, spouses , REAL BILLS would be the ones that understand me. |