My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Nice video Jay. I have been in this hobby for four decades ( yes, that dates me a tad) and what you state about various companies pricing structure has been a constant factor. Nonetheless, where i do think you may have over simplified the situation a little is in reference to the CH amp and its inability ( supposed) to drive the bass of the new Wilson Alexx V's. While this may indeed be a factor for this amp, it might be instructive to note that the new Wilson Alexx V is a speaker that is in some ways highly flawed!! Why, because the new Wilson Alexx V basically presents a dead short to any amplifier due to its ridiculous impedance characteristics! This is not the amp manufacturer's fault, instead IMO it is the speaker manufacturer's design flaw! Who on earth designs a speaker that can ONLY be driven by a huge steam engine type amp?? Well, the answer is: Wilson!! Now we haven't even discussed the price that is asked for the new Wilson Alexx V...which is ONLY $135K! That up from the prior model Alexx of around $105K..and for what benefits?? ( a deeper inability to be driven by any amp!) 

In conclusion, i would think the answer to anyone looking at whether or not they are being 'ripped off' by these unscrupulous folks is simple...VOTE with your wallet!! If all of us would do this ( or a majority would do so), I would strongly suspect that the behavior that leads to the 'rip off' mentality that so many of these folk have- would get modified. Until that time...is there really any point to your excellent video above??

I still feel that monoblocks costing 200k should NOT be scared to drive any load. I have owned several sets of monos that wouldn’t melt trying to run the Alexx. Mephisto and Boulder laughed at my Alexx speakers. It was no problem for them to drive that speaker. You could have a point in terms of the difficult load the Alexx V presents but that should be a concern ONLY if you plan to use amps that are incapable.

A 200k amp should never run and hide. To me, this is a straight up rip off. Oh and guess what? These 200k monos were replaced by the Mephisto monoblocks! Isn't that interesting?

Wait until you all watch part 2 of this video.

@jays_audio_lab  I tend to think the opposite, any speaker over (x) dollar amount should be an easy enough load for any amp to drive. I am not one who believes that the higher powered amps are also typically the best sounding amps. 

Plus, in the case of the Alexx V's ( and they are certainly NOT alone in this aspect)  at their asking price, I believe this is a severe detriment to their value and design ethos..due to locking one into an amp that has ( as you put it) no fear to drive any load! These monster amps typically do NOT have the best SQ IMO--and IME. While I see your point about any amp costing $200K having no problem driving any load, I think that over-simplifies things a bit and it does not ( at least IMO) apply to the amps true value. A better arbiter would be to discuss the inner workings and quality of the parts, plus the ultimate SQ that said amp can deliver for the monies asked. The cost to value equation is one that all folks have to figure out for themselves, which is another discussion entirely. 

I agree that for 6 figures, an amp should do everything superlatively well.  However, no audio product is perfect, regardless of price.  My cheap electrostatic speakers demolish all other speakers for clarity above 100 Hz, but they absolutely fail in macrodynamics and bass extension.  I've never heard CH Precision, but it might be analogous to my speakers in that it is the best in nearly everything but deficient with bass, very low impedance loads, etc.  The CH designer may have decided to put the money into his priorities and let other sonic qualities be shortchanged.  If you demand that he fix the deficiencies, the good things may get worse.  

I never heard the Parasound, but tried the Bryston 3B SST.  It had powerful bass and dynamics for its mere 150W, but its clarity was poor and the midrange very colored.

All products at all prices should be evaluated according to one's priorities.  Unless an expensive product is miles better than a cheaper product, it will always be scrutinized more carefully and probably rejected by the discerning listener.  

I agree with daveyf,

If I paid over 100k on a pair of speakers and found out only a handful of amps could drive them, I would be pissed at the speaker manufacturer...not at all of the high priced amp manufacturers that couldn't. 

Well it’s debatable for sure, but I’m in the camp that says it’s a deficiency of of the amp, not the speakers.
Why?

Because the conventional way to build a system is to buy speakers first, because they are most important and have largest impact on sound quality, relatively speaking, and then fit amplification to the chosen speakers.

As such, the amp can either handle the speakers, or it can’t.
Certainly fair to point out that the Wilson’s are a difficult load, of course, but anyone buying them likely knows that (or should).

simply stated, amps are to be fitted to speakers in most cases, not vice versa - speakers should be foundation of system that everything else built around.  

I have a friend who bought YG’s from a local dealer. As most folks here know, YG’s are a pretty expensive speaker and virtually impossible to drive ( certainly by any tube amp in existence!). After trying various ss power amps in his budget, which admittedly was not in the mega kilo-buck arena, he had to give up on the YG’s and try and sell them. No amp other than monster ss amps could drive them!!

Maybe a pair of Parasounds may have worked, but my friend was so very disappointed in the speakers that he agreed to lose tens of thousands of $$’s on the used sale. Now, i’m sure there are a ton of folks who believe that my friend should have known better before buying this speaker, or at the very least been told this by his dealer before purchase...unfortunately in this case he claims neither occurred. ( or maybe the dealer did mention it, and he forgot or ignored the advice, either way the cost was high for him to complete the purchase).

Do you think my friend is pissed at the speaker manufacturer---or the amp manufacturers?

I say if you buy a very difficult pair of speakers to drive, homework should be done first.  Can't blame amps for that.  I agree that speakers should be the foundation of a system, but if only a few amps are capable of driving your speakers you shouldn't start slamming amps that can't....that one's on you.

I wouldn’t slam the amps, but I’d say they are incapable of driving that speaker, not the other way around

I wouldn't slam the amps either, but I do think the speaker design is the fault, not the amp design. Regardless of the cost.

With all due respect, that’s like saying the Ferrari is a bad sports car design because all seasons that get strapped on a Camri don’t work on it.

But we can disagree, it’s fine 

Not a good analogy, IMHO.

Interesting posts! 

On the YG front. Currently driving Sonja 2.2i w a pair of Simaudio 860a v2s with plenty of reserves into the mid 90 db range. I realize the amps are not inexpensive but together they cost less than half of the speakers, retail.  For 2.5x times the cost of my amps I sure hope the M10 would not only drive the Sonjas but significantly outperform them on every dimension.

kren0006,

Totally correct.  You get the speaker you want, then find an amp that works with it.

For my inefficient speakers, a more powerful amp is desirable, especially if it can handle the very low impedance in HF.  But if the powerful amp is short on clarity, I'd rather have a lower power amp with the clarity, and just accept that my system can't handle big scale music at high volumes.  An interesting case is my powerful Rouge amp you heard on the videos.  It is powerful enough to play all music I like through my speakers, but my Mytek is slightly clearer with medium power, and can play most of my music.  I prefer the Mytek overall, although for rare occasions for dynamic music, I will connect the Rouge.

I’ve found that without a proper amp/speaker pairing, or what I call interface, no matter how good your upstream supporting gear is, your system will never truly sing. So with the example being batted around of the Alexx V, you must pair them with a/an amp/amps that can make them sing. Otherwise, don’t buy the Alexx V. Likewise, if you can afford to buy YG but don’t have the capital to purchase proper supporting amp/amps, then find something else that works. Purchasing audio gear should never be done in a vacuum; when you buy you are in essence agreeing with the designers work. This is not about designer fault, it is about proper pairing of gear. And this is on the buyer and their dealer or support network; do your due diligence well.

OCD Mikey visits my lab!

What would you rather have for your $100K speaker budget, a speaker that only sounds good with very few amps ( almost all of which require you to spend big $$)..and requires an amp that can basically drive a short...thereby ruling out all kinds of amp combinations and topologies, or a speaker that can easily be driven by just about any amp extant...and still sounds great?

"You get the speaker you want, then find an amp that works with it."

This is merely subjective, system-building, personal preference.  There is no objective, analytical principle supporting this view.  

It is perfectly acceptable, in the alternative, to start with an amplifier you love and then match it with a compatible speaker.

I feel that no amp costing 200k should run and hide from any speaker. Mephisto mauls speakers for a living. 

Sure, you can do it backwards if you want. Just as you can first buy your favorite set of tires and then afterwards search for a car that they’ll fit on. But that’s not a good way to arrive at the best ride

@jays_audio_lab   Do you think that an amps drive capability always has to do with its ultimate SQ ability. IOW, the higher the power the better the amp?

Having heard the D'Ag Relentless mono blocs on several occasions, which probably can drive just about any speaker on the planet, I can tell you that there are a number of amps, all of which are lower powered ( many of them tube based designs--and most of them far less costly) that I would rather own. 

We have a local audiophile, who is very happy with his CH M10s and Alexx V. He has no complaints about bass performance or any other aspect of CH - Wilson combo. I am not sure, if Marty tried other preamps with M10, maybe there is some lack of synergy between Soulution and CH - who knows?

@david_ten 

No I wouldn't say the more power the better the amp. For instance, the Gryphon Essence has less power than the Luxman 900u and in my opinion it beats the Luxman all day long. 

Perhaps this is stating the obvious, but...

I believe that the more powerful the amplifier and the ability for the amplifier's power supply to deliver 2x the watts as impedance is halved makes it exponentially more difficult to design and build that amplifier.  Not just the ability to provide current from reserves but to provide the correct amount of current uniformly across the impedance spectrum.  

If this assumption is true, then it is far more demanding on an amplifiers capabilities to drive a speaker where there are dramatic swings in impedance over the range of the speaker.  So, it is far easier to build a 400 watt amplifier to sound great with a speaker that has consistent 4 ohm impedance throughout the spectrum than it is to build a 200 watt amplifier for an 8 ohm speaker that has areas that drop into the 2 ohm region even though both amplifiers could conceivably be the same.  

With the Alexx V being rated at 4 ohms and dropping down to 2 ohms (which could be understated) this dictates that a 200 watt at 8 ohm amplifier needs to confidently deliver at least 800 watts at 2 ohms and potentially as much as 1600 watts at 1 ohm.  This is a very demanding load for all but the finest amplifiers.  

I am generally a fan of Wilson speakers and have heard many recent models sound exceptional, but anyone venturing into "Wilson Land" ought to go there with the full understanding that the selection of amplifiers will be absolutely critical if they listen at any elevated levels.  

Case in point, I heard the big mono block Audio Research amps driving Alexx V and the bass was disappointing... not bad... just not "moving" but then hearing the big Boulders drive the same speaker in the same room, the bass was "Is it Live or Memorex! crushing".  

I don't think it is a fair criticism of a company to design a product that has specific partnering requirements.  But it does put a level of onus and encumbrance on the dealer and the purchaser to make sure they are matching compatible products as part of the sales consideration process.

I have always been skeptical of assertions of what percentage of money should be spent on which components; especially ones where the speakers take up a disproportionately large part of the budget.  Anyone who is spending $100K on speakers would be foolish to not anticipating spending at least $50K on amplification (if not significantly more!).  This immediately puts you into the categories of amplifiers that Jay has been exploring.  I couldn't agree more that I would never expect a $200K amp to be hiding from any speaker, but I definitely could see situations where it can happen.  This doesn't mean that the amplifier is less than exceptional.  Everything has limitations.  If this weren't the case, I'm pretty sure, this thread would have run it's course years ago!  We all need to be careful to not disparage equipment that doesn't perform in a specific situation.  

I have Proac speakers which are a pretty easy load to drive, in fact I have heard them sound very nice with much lower powered Audio Research amps and a friend of mine tells me he had the same speakers with a Cary tube amp and that they have sounded exceptional, but trying to drive Wilsons with them would be just futile.  Jay might even say that they sound "mid-fi"... lol  

To further beat this dead horse, this is why it's important to try gear in a variety of situations before being overly positive or overly negative about it!

ronres,

No, most a-philes know that the speaker is the biggest factor determining the total sound.  The speaker is the main course, but the ancillary components are merely the relatively subtle spices enhancing the dish.  Take your favorite amp, but if you don't like the speaker, the total sound will be bad.  But take your favorite speaker, and any amp will produce decent sound from that speaker.

The XLF is very efficient, so a low power cheap tube amp could still produce nice music from it.  Yes, bass could be improved with an expensive SS Boulder amp.  But if you want powerful deep bass, the Boulder driving the ProAc may be able to produce decent bass, but the total musical content won't compete with the XLF + low power tube amp.

"But take your favorite speaker, and any amp will produce decent sound from that speaker."

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.

Alot of fair points this page. What I like about this thread. good post psnyder

@psnyder149 - Nice post

@ron17 - I'm with you, I also disagree with Viber6s assertion that ""But take your favorite speaker, and any amp will produce decent sound from that speaker."" It simply does not work like that.

ron17,

I'm all for getting the best components in the chain--everything is important.  But the speaker forms the basic character of the system, so it is the first priority, even if one is wealthy and can spend unlimited sums.  Horns are over 100 dB efficient, so even a 5 watt amp will be enough.  But horns have significant colorations, so what's the point of being able to use any amp, if you find speakers that suit you better.

It is one thing for an amp to be able to drive a speaker. It is altogether another thing for an amp to be able to make a speaker sing.

@pokey77

You nailed this with your comment above.

The XLF is easy to drive and make it LOUD but this doesnt mean it will be displaying its full capabilities. That is far from the truth.

Making a speaker play loud IS NOT the entire picture. I’ve heard my Xlf play loud and sound directional like a panel speaker but then you add a serious amp and wings come out the back of the speakers and now the speaker isn’t in the room anymore.

I have a video coming soon in which i will be talking about THE IMPORTANCE of selecting the component you want to build your system around. This holds THE KEY that many often times fail to see.

An amps ability to control the speaker that it is hooked up to is probably what most of us are talking about..plus the fact that it makes said speaker sing. There are a ton of horrid sounding amps that are able to drive just about any speaker known, many of these designs are inexpensive and well known. I doubt that is what is being discussed here, instead we are talking about an amps synergy with the partnering speaker, which in the case of a design like the Wilson Alexx V limits one considerably. So much so, that IMO some of the very best sounding amps will simply be disqualified. Perhaps I have not stated this before, but IME the best sounding amps in a particular line are almost always the lower to mid powered offerings. As the power increases, IME the SQ decreases...but for many..YMMV.

Let the games begin! 

Don't miss this!

I understand the point that was attempting to be made, but I think car/tires is not a good analogy of speakers/amps.

Dave

@viber6

I'm not sure I understand your question.

"Horns are over 100 dB efficient, so even a 5 watt amp will be enough.  But horns have significant colorations, so what's the point of being able to use any amp, if you find speakers that suit you better."

I was disagreeing with your previous statement.

"But take your favorite speaker, and any amp will produce decent sound from that speaker."

Recently I bought a used amp to replace my Simaudio 870a.  The amp I bought retailed for 10k more than my Sim.  I had heard and read that the brand was a good match for my speakers.  When I received it, it was damaged (cosmetic damage) but I had a week to listen to it before I returned it for a full refund.  During that week I found the sound thin, threadbare and the bass was MIA....I hated it.  It did not sound 'decent'.  Proper care should be taken when matching an amp to a speaker....not just any amp will do.

I have found room/speaker interaction to be my priority when building a good sounding system, followed by speaker/amp synergy.

Cable shoot outs are always interesting. Jay your points about the soundstage getting smaller with the Verastar cables could well be due to a mismatch with the gear..caused by any number of variables, and in fact nothing to do with the overall cable ability with other gear that would be a better synergistic match up. Easy to fall into the trap of saying cable A is better than cable B. Cable shoot outs are therefore IMO of little value, unless done in one's own system and room.

Yeah, admittedly not the best analogy.

One thing to take into consideration, even if the cables are broken in, is they need time to settle in as well. When cables are swapped in/out of a system, they are disturbed, and it is best to disturb them as little as possible; let them settle in and then come back and re-evaluate.

Yes I agree. However, it's hard to even assume that magazine reviews aren't doing the same we did of swapping stuff in and out. 

We plan to give our impressions of the playback design 22k DAC versus my MSB Reference soon. 

If possible, a full loom cable shootout video with time referenced observations and commentary would be awesome.

Not possible unfortunately

Interesting video and just goes to show how we all hear differently.   I'll be looking forward to the two of you comparing notes at certain points in the songs to see if you would then agree or continue to have differing opinions. 

Not sure if a 3rd person would be an absolute answer - might need at least two more folks.

Dave

Viber6,

For the record... I was talking about Boulder on the Alexx V.  Much as I love my ProAcs ($14,000 speakers), using Boulder ($99,000/pr) + Boulder preamp ($54,000) on them would be overkill.  I'm sure they would sound their best though!  

I agree with Ron17 and others.  A poor amp on great speakers still leads to poor sound.  An excellent amp on decent speakers can allow the speakers to sound their best even if it is a ridiculous proposition (i.e. Response 5 with Boulder).  

In the Rouge shootout, I referenced my experience with the Classe Sigma Amp 5 (class D) amp which rendered the ProAcs more or less horrible sounding.  I have also partnered 4 other class AB amps (Audible Illusions S-120, BAT VK 500, Classe' CA-5100 and--my current amplifier-- Classe'-2300) with the Proacs.  All resulted in a good-very good sound with the 2300 being the best by far.  Not Boulder/Wilson level, but really enjoyable for less than 1/10th of the cost!

psnyder149,

I think we kind of noticed in WC's videos much of what you mentioned.  His previous Wilson speakers sounded better with the Boulder electronics than his existing/better Wilson speakers sounded with lesser electronics. 

Dave

Bingo.... It's all a balancing act with regards to speakers and the matching electronics... 

Well boys, I had to buy back my Soulution 725 preamp and OCD Mike and I will be listening to it tonight. We used the master vac during our first listening session a few days ago. Let's see what he hears and how he compares it to the vac master preamp!

Got a chance to hear Odin 2 Gold in a system with Alexx V, D'Agostino Momentum mono amps/HD pre, dCS Bartok or Rossini (no clock; both were warmed up and fully broken in). Bartok was on Gold power cord, just out of the flight case and it was OK. Moved to Rossini on Odin 2 and it was in a whole other league better. The system was very quiet and dynamic. Not overemphasized at all. I've heard this system with BAT Rex Monos/Pre before with the Rossini, and it wasn't even close. But that was a few months ago. Didn't get the chance to swap between O2 and O2Gold.

The Odin 2 Gold was brought by the Nordost rep and will be here through tomorrow then off to NYC I believe for another demo.