My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
@ronres: Any idea why i was banned? I never posted a thing on there.
That seems like a fair question. Perhaps you weren't actually "banned," but the victim of an IT snafu. Or maybe there's more to it. Either way, it seems reasonable to expect some explanation.
I stand corrected as to ricevs. I guess I attributed the oft repeated “boat anchors” comment to suggesting such amps weren’t very good. Seems like a reasonable leap to make but he’s probably correct if he says he never indicated his stuff better than WC’s, so my bad for lumping him in with Viber who has often said that. I should be more accurate
I, for one, enjoy WBF and the constructive opinions of the many well informed audiophiles who chat there. With most members it is easy to have an objective conversation (many of which take place in private).
Sadly on Audiogon it all too often rapidly descends into ill informed subjective pettiness.
Jay, you must recognise that your content both here and on YouTube - whilst enjoyable and entertaining - has now evolved to become commercial in nature.
Let me delete my response to the post above...i don’t think Ron needs anyone to come here to save him. I am sure he will come back in here to disclose the reason why i was banned from what’sbestforum without me ever posting a single thing on there. My audience here wants to know and pretty soon my YouTube channel will also want to know. Who knows, maybe Ron will say that it was a mistake and that i shouldn't have been banned because i have done nothing on that forum and that my account is activated again? Strange things can happen
"Jay, you must recognise that your content both here and on YouTube - whilst enjoyable and entertaining - has now evolved to become commercial in nature."
Steve Williams (Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator) of WBF is a Critical Mass dealer that constantly promotes the products he sells in WBF. Jay is not a dealer, just an audiophile reviewer. How has Jay's thread and his YouTube channel become 'commercial in nature' while Steve's has not?
"Jay, you must recognise that your content both here and on YouTube - whilst enjoyable and entertaining - has now evolved to become commercial in nature."
Steve Williams (Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator) of WBF is a Critical Mass dealer that constantly promotes the products he sells in WBF. Jay is not a dealer, just an audiophile reviewer. How has Jay's thread and his YouTube channel become 'commercial in nature' while Steve's has not?
Jay has said so himself. I have made no reference or comparison to Steve?
I must say, the way the situation has been handled here - with little discretion and lots of overly dramatised hand bag waving - only serves to justify the decision in my eyes.
Sorry Jay, I don't get what you mean by your answer?
Meaning that i was talking to the boss; "Ron -co-owner". I go straight to the boss and hash it out. I doubt the boss needs any representatives to answer questions directed at him - which they also didn’t quite answer by the way. I’m still waiting to hear from him, but I’m sure he will respond when he has a moment.
flame : saying that WC's thread and/or videos are "commercial in nature" - I would very much disagree. It's actually the antithesis of commercial and is entirely personal.
Well... I appreciate you guys sticking your neck out for me. That said, if Ron wants to answer publicly on this thread then cool and if he does not then that's fine as well. Regardless, let's keep doing our thing here as we have done over the last 5 years. More videos coming including my bottom tier amps which releases tomorrow at 11am ET. Please subscribe and turn on your notifications so you are aware when the video goes live. Thanks again guys!
Jay, I am stepping up to the plate, and will happily send you my stock Rouge Audio Studio N10 DM Ice Edge 1200 AS1. I decided about this a few days ago, wrote klh007, and he strongly encouraged me to do it, since we both believe that the group will find this productive and valuable. He owns the Mivera modded stereo Ice Edge version, thinks my dual mono Rouge is probably a little better, although he still prefers his flagship Frank Van Alstine SS for its relative warmth.
My Rouge has about 450 hours on it. It is quite neutral, and is close to my Mytek Brooklyn Amp original version in its neutral tonality. When I switch back and forth between them, sometimes I hear the Rouge sounding a little warmer, but at other times more crisp in HF. The tonality depends on the power quality in my NYC apartment, which can vary by the minute, whether AM or PM. But the Rouge is definitely much more authoritative and dynamic, especially in the lower midrange, bass, while the Mytek is leaner. My handicap is that my electrostatic speakers with their limited bass and dynamics don't enable me to properly judge the amp's bass and dynamics, but my impression is that the Rouge rates tops in this area. At 600W/8 ohms, 1200W/4, 1000W/2 per channel, it ought to be impressive. It has similarities to the PS Audio M1200, which Mike Fremer raved about for bass, HF extension and overall excitement. By sending you the Rouge, I figured I would learn a lot from the assessments by you and the group in this area, using the unmatched XLF speaker for bass and HF both. Of all my amps, I think the group would like the Rouge the best. At $1700 with the better WBT speaker connections, anyone could afford this. Even if your rarefied equipment is more glamorous to talk about and hear, the fact is that most people cannot afford those items, so I believe they would find my Rouge most worthwhile to evaluate.
In order to make this a meaningful endeavor, I make only the following requests. To see how the Rouge compares to your best for transparency, clarity, tonality, dynamics, I ask that you make an A/B shootout with the Rouge vs your best amps in these areas, so that we can all hear it for ourselves, blinded to keep everyone AND ME honest, open minded and unprejudiced. People would vote their preferences and objective findings, the way you conducted your legendary dac shootout. Only 1 or 2 well chosen songs could tell the story, in just 1 round. Of course, in your own private time, put the Rouge through its paces and have fun. I know you will, and especially call your budget minded friends over. Boy, I miss those shootouts. No VAC amps for comparison, please, since I am not interested in tube sweetness or romance, but rather the other parameters I mentioned. How about the Soulution 725 to use as preamp for both amps? The 725 is the preamp which is most revealing. See whether your new SS amp (Block?) is more neutral and transparent than the Constellation. Too bad you don't have the G Essence now--that would have made for a great value shootout between the 2 high value amps.
If this goes well, the next step could be if you bring my Rouge to Mike's place, and do it with either the Boulder 1161 (probably a high value proposition) or the 1160 if he doesn't have the 1161.
I want this to be a great learning experience for all, not to be a vendetta against expensive stuff. If you agree, I'll send you an email with my contact info. I could ship it as early as this Wed, my usual day off. I don't mean to rush you, but if it is convenient, you could email the shipping label tomorrow so I could print it out at work. The following Wed 9/29 at noon, I am getting a dental implant, so I probably won't feel too comfortable that afternoon, so I could definitely ship it in 2 weeks, Oct 5. My most convenient shipper is Fedex, which has the best rates. This $1700 unit won't cost much for insurance.
Sounds good. It looks like we have a shootout in our hands folks. Yes Viber, since you are stepping up to the plate, I'll do a blind folded shootout as we did with my dacs. Go ahead and shoot me an email with your info (you can find it on my YouTube videos) and we will take it from there.
Thanks for stepping up, Viber. Jay's blind shootout should be fun, and I'd like to hear his personal take from listening behind the scenes too. Kudos to Jay for stepping outside of his normal wheelhouse.
I give credit to klh007, who said maybe others will be encouraged to send Jay their favorite amps. I have only 1 advantage, since my amp only weighs 23 lbs, is cheap at $1700, so the shipping and insurance costs are low.
I think it's great. It is possible to get very good sound for budget $$ in this hobby if know what doing. Always possible to get much better, or course, but you really have to pay for it. Will be cool to see what a cheapy amp sounds like in same system as WC's uber stuff.
The Rouge is sounding wonderful this AM with the stars aligning for power quality. So much crisp music. I don't want to give it up, but I made a commitment here. I admire Jay for his determination to get on with all his things, so that's what I am doing. I hope I got the email correct, just jayaudiolab without the "s."
I'm looking forward to hearing the results of this shootout, thanks Viber (and Jay). I also appreciate the thought in Viber's post about why people would benefit from this - right on the money. One thing not mentioned though that will also be interesting is how Jay thinks the amp compares to the Merrill, if only from memory, given they are both class D.
So cool to see this happen - kudos to both WC and viber6! Seems like most folks are on-board too with seeing the value proposition of a lower cost amp in a high end system. Hopefully, it will allow other folks some comfort to be able to send their lower cost gear to WC for a shot in his system.
It will be interesting to see where a lower cost amp would rate - which tier would it fall into? Bottom tier is expected, due to price. Can it be better than McIntosh in that bottom tier? Can it possibly get up to middle tier and take down Pass Labs? Some of these less expensive amps have new technology and sometimes trickle down technology from more expensive amps. Anyway, should be fun.
Viber we all forgive the long posts you used drop in here. Greatly appreciated by everyone here what you have done. We all better not mess with Viber anymore!
“Can it be better than McIntosh in that bottom tier?”
Probably!!
”Can it possibly get up to middle tier and take down Pass Labs?”
Doubtful. But that’s just a wild guess. I’ve never heard this brand (unlike Bryston and Mytek which I have). I bet there are lots of cheapies than can beat lots of the lower tier entries
jimmy2615, I heard the Merrill 114 at home for 1-2 weeks through the generosity of Merrill W himself. He told me the flagship 118 (which Jay heard at home) is a little faster but they have quite similar tonalities. To me, the 114 was highly romantic and sweet, like a great classic tube amp with good HF extension. But I preferred the tonal balance of the prior flagship, Veritas, which was leaner and more neutral, more like my reference Mytek Brooklyn Amp. My Rouge is dynamic, approximately like the 114, but more neutral. It has the neutral midrange/HF tonality of my Mytek, with more fullness and dynamics. That's why I think the group will like the Rouge better than my Mytek.
My top reference for low power is my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2, a rare bird which is not at all like the more powerful Bryston SST2 amps, or the earlier series. I totally agree with Jay that in general, Bryston is mediocre, but my unique Bryston is different and has the most clarity and neutrality of any amp I have heard. Too bad it is not found on the used market these days. The moral of this paragraph is that each product has to be judged on its own merits. Jay found that the Gryphons had widely diverse sound. There is no such thing as class D having a certain sound. GaN has technical merits, and I was surprised to find the Merrill 114 had a very warm sound. The most popular GaN amp currently is the $3K LSA Voyager. People are going ape over it, and my impression from the Voyager thread is that it may have the most detail of any GaN amp. So even within GaN, there are no generalizations so far. I hope yyzsantabarbara will send Jay his ricevs' modded Voyager soon. It will be a whale of a time here.
If yyz could make the party, it would be a threesome. And blind folded, it would be quite challenging. If Jay could manage it, that would be a unique and special listening experiment and experience.
Jay, I brought my amp to Fedex this AM. They estimated delivery to you next Wed. Prepare your buddies for a party with it the following weekend. I enclosed the stock power cord which I never used, but you can use your best cables and ancillaries on it.
BTW, your new SS amp sounds great in that video. Is it faster and more neutral than the Constellation? I want to hear the Rouge vs whichever is more neutral, so we can see which does clarity/neutrality better. Since you love Metallica, that would be great to hear for yourself and in the shootout.
Everything is relative, as the more neutral of the neutrals will show the other one to be relatively warm. That's why there is often disagreement about whether anything is warm or neutral. It depends on your reference.
yyz, Most important, first hear the modded Voyager for yourself, comparing to your Benchmark AHB2. I can let Jay use the Rouge for a while, so we all can hear how all these great amps compare. The AHB2 is slightly at a disadvantage because of its limited power in stereo, but the XLF is very efficient at 92 dB so I think the stereo AHB2 will do just fine for almost all music. So you can still enjoy your beloved single AHB2 and Jay could get your other AHB2. Although I never heard 2 mono AHB2's, my guess from comments is that at low/medium power, it is more full and rounded than the stereo AHB2. The Rouge and Voyager are both powerhouses as you know.
It's interesting that yyzsantabarbara is waiting on ricevs to finish with the mod. If ricevs is watching here, does he want to get the mod done so that yyzsantabarbara can send the amp to WC and thus have it evaluated?
Or, would it be a possibility that ricevs is not interested in having an amp with his mods in WC's system, and therefore will delay getting the mods done, just so it cannot be evaluated? I speculate because ricevs has some very interesting posts, and others mention the mods that ricevs does; however, ricevs has not made any effort to share some of his work with WC during this opportunity. If WC were to make an exception on his deadline to allow yyzsantabarbara's Voyager amp to be used in his system at a later date, then we would definitely get the opportunity to hear some of the work that ricevs does on amps. Of course, that would be up to WC. I'm sure he has some gear lined up in the near future. Dave
For me anyway much more interesting than any of this romper room stuff (tongue-in-cheek, relax guys) will be WC actually lifting the curtain on the SS monos and getting some additional screen time for that and the awesome VAC tube amp and ARC preamp. That set of gear with comparison opportunity SS to Tube has the potential to be the best ever gear he’s had in a shootout and we need to see a lot more of that.
kren0006, I enjoy both sides, and let's face it, WC is at the forefront of both. I don't know if there's anyone out there doing comparisons of the TOTL amps vs budget priced amps with his kind of setup. It will be interesting to see how many views he gets. What will be important though is for WC to have a video where he shares his opinion, since he mentioned that those kinds of videos (where he is talking and no music) are the most popular ones. Dave
The mod to the amp was finished yesterday. I am burning in the new connectors and wires for 24 hours and it will be shipped to yyz tomorrow. He will probably get it Friday or Sat. Hopefully, he burns it in a little more and does his testing. What he does after that with the amp is up to him. This is the basic mod......there might be more advanced mods down the road.
I don’t believe any of the current under $7500 Class D amps now being produced (even with mods) can beat > $100K Block Mono Blocks, etc. The most respected of the new class D amps is the Audion from AGD ($7500 the pair). Someone needs to send one of these in for comparison. When someone makes a Class D amp using all super discrete transistors (rather than $1 or less op amps) and does listening tests to every part.....then.....you will see some seriously crazy class D. However, the current crop of class D amps including modded Purifi, LSA/Peachtree (stock and modded), Orchard Audio and Cherry Audio are fantastic for the money and really great amps. Even the AGD Audion uses $1 op amps on its input......so it will never give the best sound possible. Come on designers!....move up to the 21st century and get serious with a class D amp! Maybe the $20K pair of Myteks (to be released soon?) will have discrete transistors and be great?.....I am not holding my breath....But, it will happen, but I would not expect a state of the art class D amp for under $10K.......probably higher.
@ricevs Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing the amp. If you get it to me by Friday I maybe able to have it used in some headphone demos at CanJam in Los Angeles this weekend. I would then get it back on Monday.
Thanks for the info Viber. I’m interested in the shootout partly/also because lately I’ve been doing a similar one here, with Luxman 900, Nord NC500, and mono Benchmark AHB2s. I have to say, nothing has been ‘blown away’ by the Luxman, though it is better in many areas (especially liquidity). But, I do have very amplifier-friendly speakers (Harbeth M40.2). Jay’s results with his Uber System will certainly be telling. I really like the transparency of the Benchmark, and surprisingly the Nord Hypex-based amp is quite musical and enjoyable to listen to, and also the least bass of the three! But overall I get why the Benchmark gets such high praise, it is very good. I feel like everyone should have one (or two!) as a reference for neutrality (Yes, I know, it’s subjective, but in my experience these are very neutral sounding and sound really good doing it…).
jimmy2615, At low/medium power where the single AHB2 is comfortable, how do the 2 mono AHB2's compare to the stereo AHB2? Tonal balance, transparency, detail?
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