grey9hound, I am awaiting your comment about using the Lyngdorf with big panel speakers. If you have no experience with that, you don't know either. Lacking that experience, I can only speculate on theoretical grounds why it works for dynamic speakers but maybe not for large panels whose footprint is much larger. Of course, you are right that the Lyngdorf corrects the room, not the speakers. But it is more or less a semantic discussion, because the room and speaker work as a team.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, great advice from techno_dude and bigddesign3 above. Don't waste your money and time with the Focal, Dynaudio, Wilson. I have not heard all the models, but I have heard a few of each. As dynamic speakers, they are likely inferior to your Magico for detail/resolution and overall great sound in a nice relatively small package. Getting a bigger Magico will be counterproductive for your relatively small room, although Lyngdorf room correction may do wonders. However, Magico has designed your model S5 to be optimized for smaller rooms, so I don't see the point of getting a bigger Magico only to "correct" it with the Lyngdorf. And the bigger Magicos are way too expensive and still would not compete in resolution to the CLX or even the Neolith. To get better resolution, the best move would be the CLX with the REL woofer--thanks to bigddesign3. Even then, your Magico would be worth keeping as an alternate system for rocking out. She may not be perfect, but how would you feel dumping her? Save your money for speakers rather than amps. This way you have the best electrostatic and the best dynamic speakers for what each does well. When you get those big expensive mono amps in Nov, ask yourself how much of an improvement you get relative to your good BAT, and then contemplate how much greater benefit you will get by adding the CLX-REL system for much less money. Then you can keep the Magico as an alternate. I will try one of the Merrill Elements soon. It seems like the 116 is the most popular, providing nearly all of the benefit of the 118 for "only" $22K rather than $36K. Search A-gon under Merrill Element to read the glowing review of the 116 from a professional musician, a Professor of Percussion. WOW. I've seen enough reviews to pique my interest. Now it remains to audition a unit that has enough time on it, as Guido has advised. Maybe wait to find out about the 114, which will probably be much less than $20K, and likely a great value. WC, you have a long, happy audio life awaiting you. It is prudent to be patient to see what technology brings in the future. This is obviously true with computers and phones. Don't blow a lot of money now. Spend relatively modestly for great sound per dollar. |
“I have a feeling some users are pushing Lyngdorf big time, it’s not even fun anymore...I feel being caught in a marketing operation” Glad to hear I’m not the only one sick of these guys pushing/pimping Lyngdorf. Yeah, it may just be the greatest thing ever, but it gets tiring to hear these fan-boys pushing it every second post. WE GOT IT ALREADY! and so does WCSS. |
WCSS, Just curious as to what your room dimensions are? Also, did you use Anthem Room Correction with the Martin Logan 15a speakers? ML Neolith will work if they can be placed at least 3 feet from the back wall, and 8 feet apart, and you have the room dampened properly. I have not heard them, so I’m not sure if bass boom would be a problem in your listening space. A lot rests on the speed of the Neolith woofers, and I myself have not heard them. I can only say that the imaging from a ML 15a or CLX is premium over dynamic speakers when the room has the proper drapes and carpeting, and other sound tricks at the back wall behind the speakers. There is only one brand of woofers to add to the Martin Logans (under $5k for two) that have the speed to keep up with these electrostatics. IMHO, you will get the best results with what you have been refusing to do (adding 2 REL S series to the ML 15a or CLX). Hardwood floors and even giant flat screen TVs placed behind the speakers will make electrostatics sound thin. Having some way to have some type of cloth drape over the TV when listening gets the rear reflections from it out of the equation. Carpet up to your listening position is prefered. The last 2 rooms I had my Martin Logan in.... (other homes) had the worst acoustics and shape. My new home is 29’ by 32’, with a full height Stone Fireplace at the back wall. Best room I’ve ever had, ever. What a difference dampened back and side walls can make to the sound. Also there are ways to add more damping for peanuts to the back and sides as well. You don’t have to spend all your cash on the professional stuff. Throw pillows, stuffed animals and Mexican rugs on walls are just some suggestions. The only music that seems to be not as good with electrostatics is Rock Music with a lot of electric instruments all playing at once. I have a JBL Professional Series system w/sub for that. But I haven’t heard anything better than Martin Logans with REL subs for that soundstage that they offer at their price point. Magico, Wilson Alexx and a whole bunch of speakers costing as much as a BMW have their place. For under 30k with subs, the CLX or ML 15a will bring the listener (in my opinion) to a place where dynamic drivers and their crossovers cannot. Let me know the size of your room, and where the windows are in it. Thanks. |
WC , I agree with Viber advice. Stay Magico, or go up their line, or add lightning quick subwoofers... You are a dynamic speakers kind of guy, every electrostatic will disappoint you sooner or later. I have a feeling some users are pushing Lyngdorf big time, it’s not even fun anymore...I feel being caught in a marketing opération... |
Thanks WC. You confirmed my suspicion. I know that combo (ref10 & 860a) really impressed you. The ref10 is out of reach for me financially, though. The 860a used may be possible. I’ll continue my search for a preamp. There’s a Luxman c900f on here but it’s in Israel. Maybe I’ll get lucky and one will pop up on here from the US soon.....the XPR2 I’m using now puts out 600 watts so i think I’m ok in the amp section for now. |
grey9hound, Yes, I understand how the Lyngdorf could tame the boominess of your Tektonics in a small room. I think this works because the speaker uses different drivers for well-defined frequency ranges and the imaging is probably tight so there is a relatively coherent image. But a huge stat panel like the Neolith is like having many full range drivers spread out over a large area with so much duplication and radiating in many directions that the image is diffuse and confused. Put another way, if you take a mini monitor pair which gives a tight image, and then use 30 pairs of mini monitors stacked horizontally and vertically, you will get a diffuse lousy image with poor clarity. So, even though electrostatic transducers are superior to dynamic ones in many ways, when implemented poorly as in huge curved patterns, such a big stat can be inferior to a good dynamic in many ways. In my early days, using the Maggie Tympani 1D, I loved the big panel sound, but grew tired of the diffuse imaging which wrecked the clarity. My next speaker was the little Rogers 3/5A mini monitor, which was so superior in overall clarity to that Maggie. I believe the Lyngdorf works to correct boomy bass in dynamic speakers, but its ability to correct the errors of large panel imaging is limited. WC, the preceding paragraph illustrates why I think you would be taking a BIG risk going for the Neoliths. You already have experience with the CLX and love it. The midrange and HF come from a narrow panel which gives it focus and clarity, and the larger midbass panel gives it the spaciousness you would like. Just add the appropriate woofer which would give you everything you want. The brand of woofer would require more research, but a dynamic woofer would be right. Instead of making the elephantine Neolith, ML should have just designed a dynamic woofer to add to the CLX. The CLX bass panel goes down to 56Hz, so the woofer would be used and optimized for only a small range, unlike the hybrid models like the 15a where the woofer is used up to about 200-300 Hz where the purity of the electrostatic transducer is bastardized by the dynamic woofer getting into the lower midrange. Trust me on this. If you are still hesitant, you could live happily ever after with your present Magico. |
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@whitecamaross Since this is essentially a thread about amps I would like to make a suggestion to try the Lyngdorf 3400 room correction integrated. I recently ran into the situation where I could not get a floor stander speaker, the Magico A3, into a 10W x 11.5L x 9H office space. I was bummed that I could not make this work with the 2 integrated I had in mind, Luxman 509x or Mark Levinson 585. It would have been too boomy. However, after some research on here and after speaking to Neal Van Berg a dealer at soundsciencecat.com about the Lyngdorf 3400. I am going to buy the Magico A3 (from another dealer) and also buy the Lyngdorf from him to tame the room. I have not heard the Lyngdorf but have heard all the other components I have listed above. Whitecamaross, since you have so much experience with various amps your feedback on this very popular room correction system would be very enlightening. Maybe you can get a demo unit from Neal for a home trial. He is pretty confident on the quality of the Lyngdorf and free publicity on the most popular A’Gon thread cannot hurt. He would likely say the Neolith would work in your room along with the Vivids (especially them since they can be against the back wall). One more thing that this unit can do is output the DSP corrected signal to an separate analog amp. This give you some flexibility if you do not like the Class D on the Lyngdorf. http://lyngdorf.com/tdai-3400/ neal@soundsciencecat.com |
I’m revisiting the Martin Logan Neolith option once again. My fear here is trying something so large and not finding it good for my room. The opinion of the Neolith is all over the map. Some say it’s amazing, the very best and others say it’s not coherent, too boomy in the bass etc. I’ve heard it twice but I can’t say I heard it the way I need to hear it. It was a fast listening session with that music that they play at Disney. My ears can’t tell a difference if I play material I don’t know. Bringing that elephant of a speaker, the logistics, the money I need to pay others to help me bring them inside and then not liking them is something that is keeping me from taking them. Lastly, unfortunately I’m not the type of person that goes to a dealer to audition something and with intentions of buying from someone else. I feel somewhat embarrassed unless it’s magnolia Best Buy then yes I don’t care to go in there. The pair I have available at a good deal is crated and ready to ship so I can’t hear it. Decisions... |
Snafujg: who told you I don’t like revel salon 2? They are awesome speskers for the money. However, I wouldn’t use a Luxman integrated with them. They need something like a gryphon Diablo 300 at the very least. Revel needs quality juice and they sounded their best in my room with the ref10 and the Simaudio 860a amp. That combo was magical. Trust me on this ! |
grey9hound, On a related subject, people have written about how Maggies don't sing unless cranked up to loud levels. (WC has noted the same thing about the ATI 6005 amp.) This is an admission that at low/modest levels, the clarity is not up to snuff. That means the speaker has problems with resolution, etc. A good system must have absolute clarity at all volume levels, which is certainly true of live, unamplified music. It can be true of amplified music as well, assuming that we are seeking a totally transparent, accurate amp, the so-called straight wire with gain. |
grey9hound, I think we basically agree on most points discussed. It is also telling that your last paragraph admits that upfront systems sound like the 1st row. Exactly my perspective! I don't know if you go to classical music concerts, but people have found most of the music from the 1st row to have SPL of 35-85 dB, occasionally down to 20 dB and up to 95 dB, and rarely only in certain big pieces up to 105 dB peaks on percussion. Sustained loud brass instruments only reach 90-95 dB. Live unamplified music has clarity at these levels, which are much lower than many audiophile amplified systems where they feel a need to make it louder to get the missing clarity at true live levels or to just rock out in "hifi" style. I find with neutral amps with extended HF, I am happy listening with the clarity at the modest levels of live classical music, but with laid back rolled off HF amps I am not happy unless I push the volume to higher unnatural levels. But at that point, I still don't get the clarity, and actually find the unnaturally loud levels HARSH. How about that! |
I’m a Magico fan so I vote M3s which I have heard over at Suncoast Audio many times with all sorts of amps,preamps and DACs. They always have sounded superb and would be my ultimate goal if I had a bigger room. My S3Mk2s are probably a better choice for my 11x14 foot room and I have no desire for bigger. The only times I have listened to Martin Logan speakers has been at Bestbuys Magnolia rooms and more than likely not set up optimally. I must admit it’s a bigger sound image but its thinner than I like. if I was a big classical music fan I would be happy with them. What impresses me with Magicos is the quickness and detail of the music with still a lot of meat on the bones sound. The fact that I wouldn’t have the room to deploy them properly is also a big consideration. |
@minorl I would go with the Martin Logan if you want real bass. I have never heard either,though . It looks like they can do real bass as compared to the M3 It looks like F3 on the Neolith is about 23HZ The Magico M3 really doesn't say ,except that the freq response is 24HZ to 50KHZ. That tells me that at 24HZ , they are most likely 6DB down. I have not heard either , but it is hard to get a lot of Bass out of 7inch woofers compared to a 15 and a 12 |
Viber6, I agree .UNAMPLIFIED live music is not Harsh. I concur that live unamplified music can be loud enough to be annoying, but is not harsh . My point is that when amplified is when it sometimes can be harsh, My music is amplified . So what is your point again. My point is that if I turn mine up a bit (since it is somewhat laid back ) i have more head room before it becomes harsh , distorted or clipped by the amp. It sounds LIVE when turned up , but also gives me nothing harsh. The point that i am making is that most highly resolving , up front systems that put you in the first or second row can play ok at moderate levels , but because they are perfect sounding this way, they tend to get bright or harsh when turned up to higher concert or Live party type of levels. |
Martin Logan Neolith. I heard both the Magico M3 and the Neolith. I like them both. But, I really liked the Neoliths. Although I heard them with the Dan D'Agostino amps and pre-amp at the 2018 RMAF. I also heard them with Audio Research REF 750 amps and REF 10 at the 2017 RMAF. Absolutely wonderful. Sound. I don't remember what the Magico M3s were paired with, but they sounded great also. My vote is Neolith. I know you are using the REF 10 pre-amp, but what amp are you currently using? enjoy |
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grey9hound, While taking a walk today, I heard the raucous sound of honking horns from American cars (Japanese cars honk politely like the "beep beep" of Road Runner the cartoon character). At about 80-85 dB, the honks are not ripping your ears off, but it is clear that their tone is raucous and would be unpleasant at louder levels. The tone of brass horns like the trumpet, trombone, sax, French horn, tuba has similarities to the honking car/truck horn. This is real life. Your statement that a laid back sound allows you to play louder without being harsh is certainly true, but it is not relevant to the quest for high fidelity to the lifelike qualities of real sound, in both correct volumes and accurate tonality. Real, live music is sweet and soothing much of the time, but there are raspy moments here and there which punctuate the sweet sound and make it interesting, providing variety and dynamic range. You could also consider the tonal spectrum from sweet to raucous as having a "dynamic" range of sorts. |
grey9hound, As I recall, you like rock/pop/jazz music. This tends to be played at louder levels than I listen for classical music. I understand your preference for laid back sound, because your music heard close up at live levels tends to be "harsh", excuse the expression. But what you might describe as harsh, others describe and crave the raw, raspy excitement of it. You would hear the same things as others, but describe it as harsh and prefer it toned down. As your preference, that is OK for your taste. As you know, my perspective is that of a musician/participant, so what I hear in classical music as a close-up performer is much more detailed than any concertgoer hears. If you sat with me at my music stand, you might describe the sound as harsh, but I describe it as exciting. A few professional musicians here, such as mayoradamwest and mrdecibel have corroborated my findings. In fact, sometimes professionals insist on special barriers to prevent hearing damage when percussion and brass instruments blast off behind them. I have seen a few patients in their 20's with documented hearing damage from playing in rock bands a few years earlier. I am thankful classical music can be enjoyed at much lower volumes. My exciting sound at 90-95 dB peaks is safe, but not at much higher volumes. |
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 1 & Gen2 Amps are harsh when driven hard. I have owned Gen1 and Gen 2 both. If you drive them very hard at all they become Harsh. Viber6, I am beginning to think that you believe a harsh sound is normal. The Emotiva XPA- is also Bass heavy. It is a Great bass amp. I agree that they are great for the money , BUT if driven very hard , they can be harsh |
snafujg, Aren't the Emotiva products great? I almost bought the newer XPA 3rd generation amp. (I haven't heard the newest more powerful Reference.) It was powerful, although strangely it shut down at the levels needed to drive my inefficient 75 dB electrostatics with impedance of 1 ohm in the highs. Tonally it was close to my great Bryston 2.5B SST2 for its detail and neutrality, although slightly warmer. There are no SS artifacts. People who say the Emotiva is harsh are just addicted to warm/lush sounds. The Emotiva is just quite neutral and satisfying. For your hotly recorded rock/alternative music, I think you would love it. It is amazing how Emotiva amps can sound near SOTA for so little money. This is a sad commentary on many uber expensive amps out there, some of which I have personally tried at home and which are ripoffs. As you know, you can try Emotiva risk free for 30 days. According to Emotiva forums, the XPA series has a different sound than the XPR. |
WC, I’ve spent the last several weeks reading this thread from the beginning. What a journey you’ve been on. It’s great to read real life reviews on gear. This has been great for me as I prepare to upgrade my front end. I purchased Salon 2s about 6 months ago. Not your cup of tea I know, but since you’ve had them a couple of times I’d like to ask your opinion on pairing them with the Luxman 509x integrated, another piece that you spoke highly of. Would the Luxman drive these in your opinion? I listen to mostly rock and alternative. No classical, blues or jazz for me. I have a large room (20x26) and listen at 90 to 95 dbs. I currently use an Emotiva XMC-1 processor and XPR-2 amp for music. I know I need to upgrade these to get the most out of the salons. I’m leaning towards a preamp first but if I get an integrated and kill two birds with one stone, that would be ideal. Thanks all! |
jafox, Your post is interesting, but doesn't answer the question I posed to grey9hound about whether large panel speakers will do well in a small room with the Lyngdorf. Your 18x23 room is fairly large, so it would accommodate most SoundLabs without room correction, although there is the possibility that room correction might help. I find that a good distance of over 6 feet to the back wall is very effective with my Audiostatic 240's, so room correction electronics might pose a disadvantage. Which SL do you have? No, I have personally heard the A3 and Ultimate several times at my friends' homes, as well as at dealers' places. As electrostatics, they certainly beat dynamics for the reasons we both agree on. But I hear the ML CLX as being just about the best of breed in its focus and detail, for the reasons I have said, except it is clearly deficient in bass. The large SL's are probably comparable to the stat panel of the ML Neolith in their range. I have not heard the Neolith, and would guess that the large SL has the advantage in bass coherence and detail with the rest of the range. |
Boulder is a great brand to deal with for sure. I just never got my feet to tap when playing the 2060. Techno: the Magico tweeter gives you nice detail but You must know how to match components with it. There’s zero room for error with it. I am happy with my s5 mk2. It’s an ultra detailed speaker. I would be totally ok staying with them for many years. They aren’t massive, they weigh a lot but they don’t take over your room with their size. I love that about them. The focal sopra 3 were good for the money but the Magico had more stuff happening between the speakers that I didn’t quite hear as clear with other speakers. as of today, NOT ONE Magico s5 mk2 has been listed. Why ? Because in order to top it you’ll need to make a serious investment that many just don’t want to do. I find the Magico s5 mk2 better than the Sonus faber cremonese that I owned. |
but have you personally heard the effect on large panel speakers (electrostatics or Maggies) in small rooms? These large panels have deficient bass anyway, so room correction yields less benefit than when applied to large dynamic speakers with much more bass. The problem with large panels is lousy imaging and bloating effects, in all except huge rooms.WHAT?????? The above quoted paragraph has so many generalizations that don't match at all to my experiences of owning Magnepan and SoundLab speaker for the better part of 20 years. I know you make all these claims of time-smearing with the SoundLab and I won't even go there as your experience with these products is clearly limited to what you have read about or what you heard in a show room. But let me educate you that the SL speakers have a bass output to rival many dynamic speakers with similarly claimed bass response. If you did not hear this, then that was the fault of the amp(s) driving them, or a poorly implemented system elsewhere. I have reported here before that in my basement room, there were considerable bass nodes that were measured....three of them below 250 hz. A Rives PARC unit did an outstanding job to take care of this and bring the bass back into check. But it also destroyed the musicality of the system to clock-radio performance. Any bandaid system such as this will have similar results. We talk about the simplicity of our preamps and amps, with minimal gain stages, fewest components, the greatest volume control on earth, etc., and then we turn right around with a black box full of circuitry of IC's and mediocre passive parts and a multitude of connections and cables, and we are ok with this? .... no thanks. I brought the speakers a few more feet out into the room which resulted in a far better outcome than what the PARC had provided. Without being able to do this, the conclusion would have been that these SL's were not a good fit to this room. Oh, and I had stage placement and decays tat I rarely hear in any show rooms so I don't know where "lousy imaging and bloating" comes from; I assume it's from what you have read or hear in a setup for which you are unfamiliar. With the SL's on one side of the 18x23x8 upper floor room of my home, the bass energy is as good as I could ever ask for with music. Unless I need to hear low frequency computer generated special effects from HT sources, which are often best served by subwoofers, I will take the SLs' bass performance and tonal coherency any day over a dynamic speaker. |
Viber: I am not sure how was unclear. I cannot take my father in law's amplifier and test it against mine. I live in southern Virginia and he lives in Chicago. I have never directly tested the units, except that I own a 2060 and my father in law has the 850. I did own the 865 and did compare it to the 2060. The 2060 is a better amplifier, there is no question. With the 2060 the bass is tightened up quite a bit, the mid range and treble were improved as well. The sound stage was wider, much wider, and the depth to the music was considerably better. There were a few things that I liked from the 865, firstly the volume control is better than that on the Vitus. I am not saying the preamp section is better, per se, but just that the .5 db 200 step range was just amazing. I was able to use my networked cables. I am happy with the cables I settled on, but the 2060 does not react well to certain networked cables. And the 865 really was impressive. the 2060 is another beast, especially when the volume is turned up and the speakers can really sing (or work). I clearly did not explain the difference between the circuits. They are NOT the same. The 2000 series is fully balanced from input to output, full differential. The best would be to ask Boulder directly. This is a direct quote I received from Boulder: "... All of our products use the same quality parts. Where the series are different is in the circuitry that we choose for each series. In very simple terms, the higher the series, the more complex the circuit design. The 800 Series is the simplest we build and all of the products have balanced inputs and unbalanced outputs. When we move up to 1000 level products, the gain stages are now built discretely instead of using monolithic parts, output sections are now balanced, and the output power doubles (all of which increase the parts count). Moving up to 2000 level, gain stages are completely monolithic and built in modules, amps run Class A, power doubles again, and so on. The changes we make from series to series improve sound quality, but in all Series, we use the best parts we can." I hope the above quote helps. Boulder is an extremely amazing company. I really love working with them. |
@viber6 I have Lyngdorf and Large speakers . Have you heard Lyngdorf ? Don’t say that Lyngdorf room correction yields less benefit with large arrays unless you have heard it. That is a silly statement when you have Zero evidence of it . Lyngdorf can and will correct these problems . Please do not assume something until you have heard it and know for sure. If you have ever heard Lyngdorf , you would not say this ! I have huge speakers in a 10x11.5 room that is open n one side. And i have Lyngdorf . What makes you so sure that the large panels won’t work right with Lyngdorf , when you have never used it or heard it ? |
grey9hound, Of course, audition is a must to really know the truth, but have you personally heard the effect on large panel speakers (electrostatics or Maggies) in small rooms? These large panels have deficient bass anyway, so room correction yields less benefit than when applied to large dynamic speakers with much more bass. The problem with large panels is lousy imaging and bloating effects, in all except huge rooms. |
jlaz, Thanks. I can't tell if you actually A/B'd the 850 against the 1060 or 2060, but it would be simple to move your father in law's 850 to your place for a brief listen. That would be more interesting than the Mac/Boulder comparison, since I would expect the 850 to be far superior to the Mac in resolution, etc. I am not clear on what you mean by saying the 800 series is half of a 1000, or the 1000 is half of a 2000. The same circuits but just half power from half the number of transistors? If that is true, then the sound quality at most volume levels should be identical, although my small Bryston 2.5B SST2 is far superior in resolution to the larger 4B SST2. I use no preamp, since I use the Rane ME 60 equalizer as a volume control, as I have explained before. |
jlaz, Thanks. I can't tell if you actually A/B'd the 850 against the 1060 or 2060, but it would be simple to move your father in law's 850 to your place for a brief listen. That would be more interesting than the Mac/Boulder comparison, since I would expect the 850 to be far superior to the Mac in resolution, etc. I am not clear on what you mean by saying the 800 series is half of a 1000, or the 1000 is half of a 2000. The same circuits but just half power from half the number of transistors? If that is true, then the sound quality at most volume levels should be identical, although my small Bryston 2.5B SST2 is far superior in resolution to the larger 4B SST2. I use no preamp, since I use the Rane ME 60 equalizer as a volume control, as I have explained before. |
I have no idea where this rumor about Boulder could have come from, they just built a new factory and i think the founder still owns it. I do know the 850, as my father in law owns a pair. They are in a different system than mine so it’s not fair comparison. Regardless I went with my father in law Tom pick out his system and I believe he made a great choice in regards to the amplifiers. He uses a Mcintosh front end and a b&w 802d speakers. His cables are so so at best and he mostly listens to records. My system differs significantly. So when testing the 850s, against the Mac amps he want the Boulder had more range, better control over the base, and just resolved the music better. When I hear it in his current system, they sound good, though I do not know what effect the speakers have on the overall sound. But they throw a wide soundstage, great control over the bass, wonderful ability to capture the high notes. It isn’t not as refined and detailed as a 2060 or detailed as a 1060. If you are looking for great amps at that price, the 850 is very good. I think they are a great opportunity for a buyer. I wouldn’t worry too much about resale value, unless you plan to change them out quickly. I’m done on the amplifier end, no need to upgrade the amp, the dac or preamp, or even speakers, sure! The 865 was really pretty spectacular for the price. Boulder told me that the 1000 series is half of a 2000 series and the 800 series is half of a 1000 series. So that is pretty good, I’d say! What preamp are you using? |
grey9hound, Thanks for refreshing our memories about the Lyngdorf room correction. I'll study it, but for now I think you are correct. Probably this would work for large dynamic speakers whose drivers are still much narrower than YUGE 3 foot wide curved electrostatic panels like the biggest Sound Labs or Neolith. These create lots of mutlipath effects with sonically confusing wave launches, as I have explained in my posts. Large dynamic drivers still create more focused sound, even if the nature of the electrostatic principle is lower distortion, but it has to be done with a proper panel concept. I don't see anything that can correct for these problems of big panels in small rooms, even though I am sure the Lyngdorf would help some aspects of the sound such as tonal balance. |
jlaz, Thanks. Have you heard the Boulder 850 monos? Boulder says they use technology trickled down from the 1000 and 2000 series. The Music Room has the 850 monos for $6500 (original retail $11k). Nice 45 day trial, and each mono only weighs 30 lbs. These amps have been sitting at The Music Room for some time, so it seems that resale may be an issue. bill_k, Thanks for correcting me. Somewhere I read that Boulder was briefly out of business. They might have been bought with a nice cash infusion to get back on their feet. |
WC, There is nothing as natural and truthful as a well-designed electrostatic such as ML CLX, possibly the best of breed. The larger Magico models will probably have more of the bass you want, but that doesn't mean they are superior to your medium size S2 for midrange/HF accuracy. The flagship series are super expensive, but they are still dynamic speakers which won't compete with the ML CLX in what electrostatics inherently do best, which is the all important midrange. Years ago I heard a large Magico, just ho hum compared to the Wisdom Audio ribbons in the same room. Even the ML Neolith would be much cheaper than the flagship Magicos (I am not even referring to the ridiculous big horn which approaches $1 million). As much as I think the CLX would beat the Neolith for mid/HF performance, even the Neo would probably beat the big Magico for performance and value. I suggest keeping your budget relatively modest at this point, saving up for the probably ultimate commercially available speaker, the ML CLX. You could use your decent BAT amp. Just put the biggest sum of money into the best speaker you can get, such as the CLX which isn't all that expensive, plus the best woofer that is compatible. |