I am disappointed with some of Shunyata's products like the top Sigma HC power cord in the previous series, which was laid back compared to the Venom HC which I like. I do like my Denali 6000S. With everything plugged in, there is more detail/focus without any rough edges.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Another observation on aftermarket fuses: It has been my experience that aftermarket fuses should be used AFTER the system has been completely dialed in. Speakers should be broken in, correctly placed and spiked (or footer). Components should be fully broken in and isolated (footers or stand). Cables chosen to compliment components, speakers and room. Room treatment applied to optimized smooth response.....In other words, fuses should be one of the last upgrades made after all else is optimized....IMO |
Of course, you will hear more info if you system is tweaked first....same goes for everything. You will hear more speaker differences if everything is tweaked first. However, fuses are relatively inexpensive compared to $5K stands and cables. They will make the same difference whenever you use them......you will just hear less of the difference (again, same goes for everything). Try them anytime.....they may do much more than cable changes. By the way, some people like difference fuses better than Synergistic....do some searching. You have only just begun. Try a stock fuse wrapped with copper foil that has conductive adhesive....wrap around once......for a temporary quick reference. |
I have 7 orange fuses and only installed 2 on the Antileon and 1 on the Essence. I still have to do 2 on the Pandora and 2 on the DCS dac. however, i am not going to be doing fuses on the pandora or DCS before the shootout. Again, i dont need to give the edge to any dac and i also dont want to hear "oh jay you did the shootout with orange fuses on the Pandora and they are not broken in so you gotta do it again because it is not accurate what we heard, etc, etc". i am not going to embark on that. The shootout will take place EXACTLY as explained on the video and once that has wrapped up then we will begin to do fuse changes and perhaps videos of the before and after effects with ACTUAL videos for you all to listen which has not been done on Youtube. |
Quick video i just shot after installing the new acoustic panels plus listen to the Antileon Evo.... https://youtu.be/L1IgmE-blig |
Same song "Man in the moon" https://youtu.be/vFmC1V-FetM--XLF with Essence, before new acoustic panels. Start at 1:18 to compare to the beginning of Jay’s above video of the Antileon. In the next post I will comment on what I hear from the Essence vs Antileon. I see how Henry201 says that the guitar is artificial on these XLF videos, but that is due to the hyped up recording of the guitar, not the XLF. The voice is more natural, much clearer than on any of Jay’s previous speakers. The brilliant tweeter implementation exposes the flaw in the guitar recording, but the voice doesn’t have the brilliant HF of the guitar, so the voice is more natural. It is usually true that in striving for more clarity, something has to give, like the sharper HF from the guitar. The alternative is a dull speaker like Magico where the guitar is not as nasty, but the lower freq instruments are veiled/dull. I prefer to tolerate some unpleasant sounds in return for the overall great clarity of the XLF. |
I hear the Antileon as brighter with less bass fullness than the Essence. I have no idea how much of this difference could be due to the new acoustic panels. Henry201 would probably prefer the Essence, but I prefer the better clarity of the Antileon, although I admit that it is more hyped up and hifi-ish on this recording. Jay, if your ears agree with my assessment and you find the Antileon + acoustic panels more revealing, then delay the DCS/MSB until you have done further tweaking. As it stands right now, I love the latest video and believe it will best show the differences between the two dacs. I eagerly await the shootout as it is with the Antileon. Then before you sell one of the dacs, confirm your choice with the Boulder amp, the most revealing amp you have owned. |
@mikepowellaudio I don’t personally piss on myself over Wilson or mágico or any brand you might carry as an audio dealer. I get over audio components as fast as they walk through my door. That said, the level where I’m playing today is quite high and there isn’t much here that i can easily use to substitute some of my components. I believe the only brands I’ve had in my possession for long have been dcs and gryphon amps. Both are brands that aren’t replaced quite easily and this is why I don’t let them go. It would be hard for me to find them again. |
Wow, even a cheap microphone in the phone can produce great recordings. Perhaps the Antileon enhanced with the Orange fuses is responsible. I do remember that your recordings were even better when you switched from the phone mike to the Shure. Hopefully you can redo the latest recording with the Shure mike. There was a recent Stereophile review of the Essence which found it warm/euphonic. I bet the Antileon is more accurate. Let's dream about the XLF with Mephisto or Boulder with Orange fuses. |
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@jays_audio_lab I did not mean you per se. and yes, I am going on what ive heard at audio shows. I was agreeing with Henry that I dont get why people think Wilson is so great , as I never have and quite a few people have the same feeling. I seem to have concluded after years of wondering why this is that there is a clear distinction in why audiophiles buy the brands they do. One group is very price conscious and are very concerned about resale value. this means they are limited to the brands that have the highest marketing budgets, these huge ad budgets are limited to the brands that make the largest profits, the brands that make the most profits are limited to the ones that have corporate level investment bankers behind them. I mean it stands to reason, and makes perfect sense. Id say these are the "business minded" audiophiles. Nothing wrong with them or the business model at all. it simply exists. On the other hand we have the folks that the only rule they follow is that the gear has zero half measures or considerations in regards to making more profit , but rather the piece has Passion for the Audio Arts imbued within its "DNA". More often than not , these brands are lesser known and usually have lower resale value because its more important to the owner to make his piece "perfect" in his eyes than it is hitting a profit goal for the quarter. I find there is more soul in these pieces and they amass the best sounding in the market . In fact I dont consider any of the corporate brands best in its area. More often than not , the product has had its lifeblood squeezed out and its been systematically gone through and made less expensive to produce while its retail cost goes up. This opens a paradox where the gear with low resale has the strongest true value /vs performance for the buyer and the well marketed brands have the strongest perceived value to produce a quick sale. So it all boils down to what someone is personally after in all this . I will die and my rig will be left there. Resale will be unimportant. My next of kin will be compensated in other ways. Therefore I am committed to only what is the best performer at each given price. This means I am clear that McIntosh, Focal, ARC, Wilson, Sonus, Wadia, KEF, are no longer what they once were. Then there are new hot brands that never were and are not as good as they purport themselves to be like Magico for instance. There is better HiFi for less money. These are the brands that sell to the uninitiated as its all they see in the magazines. So Im not making anything wrong here, its all OK and fine. Im just laying it out as I see it and Im an industry insider (Manufacturer) for the last 20 years. So to clarify, what youve just read is my opinion based on what I perceive to be true. Dang ! did not mean to have this get so deep... sheesh... happy listening man ! |
I agree with henry201. The Wilson XLF sounds stunning for the first several minutes then to me become fatiguing, (in person and on youtube videos). With viber constantly extolling its virtues and continually calling the M6's veiled and dull, I know I'm on the right track as far as what I'm hearing. I find the M6's warm and more naturally balanced. I'm guessing I would find vibers system extremely fatiguing and completely unbalanced. TEHO |
Ha. Haven’t had chance to listen to new Wilson speaker vids but yes Viber loving them to extent he seems to also strikes me as potentially a bad sign knowing his sonic preferences. Only WC knows what they sound like in his room. Hopefully he will soon tell us how they compare to all his previous speakers |
It’s hard to do what i do with gear of this caliber. You got the fan boys of affordable audio walking around with machetes looking to chop my head off and then you got the fan boys of particular name brands that get angry and take high blood pressure medication for as long as I am owning a product they hate but once i have a product they love then they cancel their medication refill. It’s the nature of doing social media. Not much that one man (me in this case) can do about it. |
@rbch: You are essentially echoing the I’ve been saying before which was that there is no such thing as a perfect speaker or one that checks all boxes for everyone. The point i was making wasn’t what you assumed or understood by what i wrote above. It was to simply open up about the other side of the journey. It’s easy as hell to take aim at the moving target in front of you but if that target could shoot back then it would be an entirely different war. That’s all . Anyhow, yes i am the person who wanted to do this and I'm not dismissing that, but this doesn't mean i get to be a piñata 🪅 for everyone to crack open. |
The usual suspects here like to bash my audio tastes, but remember that Jay agrees with me that the XLF is the BEST speaker he has ever owned by far. Give me the same respect as you give Jay. Jay and I have far different music that we like, but come to very similar conclusions. Jay has more experience with expensive equipment than most anyone here, and my musical background gives me the knowledge and experience to know what is live, real and natural. No speaker is perfect. Magico may have the best drivers and cabinet design, and takes out full page ads on all their technical aspects. Despite that, Dave and Daryl Wilson, with the input of the prestigious recording engineer Peter McGrath, have practical musical expertise that helped them create the XLF which is far more revealing and lifelike than Magico. Possibly inferior drivers than Magico, but better design artistry. So yes, I acknowledge that the guitar on the XLF sounds hyped compared to Magico. But you have to have enough experience in different halls and rooms to know that a guitar in a small room is rounded and boomy, but in a large open space is much brighter and thinner. That "Man in the moon" song is from a live outdoor concert where the guitar is in reality bright and thin. So the XLF is telling the truth about that recording, whether you LIKE it or not. Even so, in order to get slow dynamic drivers (compared to electrostatics or planar magnetic/ribbons) to sound like they have snap, you have to play some design tricks, which Dave Wilson did artfully and most intelligently. With Magico without the Wilson tricks, you hear the basic slower character of dynamic drivers. The darker and deeper tonal balance of Magico is true to a mid hall presentation, and the XLF is more brilliant and upfront, where the microphones are. Therefore, the XLF is a closer representation of reality. If you LIKE Magico or other warmer speakers and don't care about accuracy and reality, that's OK, but DO NOT mock those of us with different goals. |
"With viber constantly extolling its virtues and continually calling the M6's veiled and dull, I know I'm on the right track as far as what I'm hearing. I find the M6's warm and more naturally balanced. I'm guessing I would find vibers system extremely fatiguing and completely unbalanced. TEHO" You call that bashing? I call that speaking the truth. Anyone that has read this thread for a few years knows EXACTLY what you prefer. We've been reminded with every piece of equipment the OP has brought into his room. I truly believe most people that participate on this thread would find your system fatiguing and out of balance, including the OP. You have been reprimanded by many on this thread including the OP for continually forcing your dogmatic views down our throats. As far as giving you the same respect I give Jay, that will never happen. You lost my respect years ago with your relentless preaching. |
I doubt that Jay likes these Wilsons much so far but for now he has no choice, he has to like them. I no longer look forward to dac comparison. Amplification and cabling must be sorted out first. We don't have an acceptable sound yet. And I maintain a working theory that Wilson and Gryphon are not a good match, for whatever reasons. As for many people on youtube saying how great the sound is, this is none of our concern. We are audiophiles with high standards and trained ears. |
Just for some added context: I am communicating with 2 serious audiophiles who own XLF. Their rig is above mine because they have owned these speakers for at least 3 years so they know it inside out. The stillpoint ultra 5s are supposed to elevate this monster to greater heights. I never said i would keep any speaker for the long haul. The question is WHAT THE HELL DO YOU REPLACE THE XLF WITH that doesn’t mean you gotta spend another 100k on top...while easily besting it without trying to hard...go on and answer that question first but DO NOT ANSWER IT if you’re speculating. Here’s the question loud and clear: Name a few speakers that would smoke the XLF while using the equipment i have on hand here and which doesn’t require me to spend yet more money on top for the new speakers.. again, no speculating here. Present it with real facts and give me literature or something to go off of. I’m with open ears and no don't tell me the Alexx V. I have already heard it. |
One thing i find interesting is that when nobody knew what the speaker was, 90% of people were impressed by it. As soon as they find out what speaker it was, the hate starts. The few that will not vote prior to knowing what speaker it is are actually the ones that are scared of saying they like what they hear in case it’s the brand they hate so they keep their comments behind until it’s known what the speaker it is. I got news... It’s EASY AS HELL to know who is who. I just gotta look at the comments and remember who said what prior to knowing what speaker it is and it’s easy to track those who didn’t say a thing until they found out what speaker it is. This is why I’m doing what im doing with the DAc shootout. If you open your mouth and vote, stick to your damn vote even if it means you selected the DAc you have hated for most of your life once i unveil what you voted for. I am blessed to own both dacs so it won’t break my heart which one you choose but pants need to worn and own your words. Don’t delete or change it. Oh and if you stay quiet prior to knowing what Dac it is and then you come out swinging AFTER i unveil it, I’ll come out swinging at ya. If you remain quiet and don’t say a peep while the presentations are happening and then you come out swinging after i say what each presentation was, I’ll call you out on the bs for not voting and speaking as to what you preferred. The DAC shootout is happening so either stay quiet and enjoy the show and say nothing or if you want to be heard, start being vocal BEFORE i unveil the presentations. Let’s play fair and square. Nothing pisses me off more than people who cant stick to their answers. Ps: stillpoint ultra 5 footers are now installed under the XLF. Time alignment has been fine tuned so tomorrow i am starting to shoot my first video with the first DAC. |
The last few comments by kren0006 were objective and respectful towards me, but that of rbach NOT. My comments are informational about objective descriptions of what I hear from XLF or anything else, and my speculations about how design features may correlate with what I hear. But they are NOT "relentless preaching," or telling anyone they must dump their present speakers and get XLF, etc. Actually, the person who says that I am preaching is uncomfortable with inconvenient truths that I present. Well, they might now deny that I am presenting "truth." "Truth" means objective descriptions of what the component sounds like compared to other components in that system, and what natural unamplified live music sounds like whether or not it is your preference. A first rate dignified guy like "thezaks" I know has different preferences than me, but in posts here and private communications he acknowledges the objective facts I present. If he gets pleasure from things I don't like, that is OK with me because he is happy. He does respect my musical background and experience, and knows I am being honest and not disrespectful to him or anyone else. What is really bang on truth is Jay's statement---"One thing i find interesting is that when nobody knew what the speaker was, 90% of people were impressed by it. As soon as they find out what speaker it was, the hate starts." What this all means is the importance of having an open mind and being objective, which is in short supply from the bashers. |
Jay, Mike Fremer seems to have tastes that are much warmer than mine. He prefers the Alexx to his older XLF, and the XVX to the XLF. He doesn't care for electrostatics. All this is OK--whatever makes him happy is none of my business, but I find his honest and objective descriptions of everything useful. If money was no object, I would probably still prefer the XLF to the XVX, or to any dynamic speaker I have heard, based on his objective descriptions and my listening here. If your tastes are approximately similar to mine, you might feel the same, so you don't have to spend outrageous money on hopes of beating the XLF. When you are trying more modestly priced components for the benefit of your audience, that is doable, but engaging in unaffordable pursuits creates financial and family stress which isn't worth the excitement of the expensive R & D. |
Dude I'm telling you that all the hate came AFTER i revealed what speaker it was. I was conditioning people with the sound of the XLf and blind folding them, but of course people must know the brand before they vote. Ain't that the truth ?.
You all see with your own eyes how f@cked up WE ARE as so called "audiophiles" ? It's is safe to accept that we buy brands and not sound OFTEN TIMES. I hope this has been a learning lesson for many of you. NOW you see WHY i get pissed off. |
"My comments are informational about objective descriptions of what I hear from XLF or anything else, and my speculations about how design features may correlate with what I hear. But they are NOT "relentless preaching," or telling anyone they must dump their present speakers and get XLF, etc. Actually, the person who says that I am preaching is uncomfortable with inconvenient truths that I present. Well, they might now deny that I am presenting "truth." Well viber I guess you will never get it. How many times have you badgered us about your Rane equalizer / preamp? How many times have you asked the OP to use one to increase definition and clarity? What about months and months of you and your push for Jay to get the GT Audio speakers? We've had dozens of revolts on this thread because of you pushing your 'truth' on us. You have been the butt of hundreds of jokes because you just don't get the fact that we're not interested in your 'truth'. The OP got so fed up with your non stop 'truth' he asked you to put your system on a video so we could all hear the 'truth'. Of course that never happened. Never will. I know several people who left this thread because of too much viber. You've been asked so many times in so many ways to stop posting so much and stop with the pushy repetitiveness. You didn't get it then and you don't get it now. What a shame. How many times have we had to go through posts like the following? Jay, Yes, I could EQ the Alexx and get it to sound more detailed and spacious than the Chrono without EQ. I just did you a favor in case you lust for the Chrono!! Get the Rane, maybe put better parts in it, and rejoice. Yes, the electronics of your Boulder or Pandora are likely much better, but careful EQ will bring out more of your music if you replace the B or G preamps with the Rane. I'll coach you on it by phone. No consultation fee. If you wanted to make a hit with your consultations, I would recommend speakers, amps, cables, but recommend the Rane instead of preamps, which would give maximum flexibility and results. Why don't you try it? You will thank me. And what about the endless pushing of lamp cord for speaker cables. ugh! This is from Jay. "Viber, You couldn't promote the expensive because you haven't owned it. I could say the same thing to you by telling you to stop promoting the lamp cord trials that only occur in your domain. I highly doubt anyone went out to try that on their amp. You give tons of opinion on things that you only have really read about or seen on pictures. Why is that the case?" I stand by my comment of "relentless preaching". BTW this was my post dated 5/31/21 BEFORE the XLF was revealed. "I hear what Guido hears. Sounds the opposite of the M6's. Sounds thin and forward like a speaker that needs to be broken in. Maybe a familiar recording would help. No way it's Sonus Faber. SF has a laid back warmer sound." |
It seems to me that there was just as much hate on the M6 as the XLF. I remember reading someone saying the M6 had a feminine sound vs a masculine sound from Wilson....followed by a poster asking if the M6 came in the color pink? I wonder why speakers (more than anything else) bring out the hate in people. |
Oh man...you are so right Ron! I forgot about that comment!!! The truth is most of the haters are now going to hide behind their keyboards. That is typical behavior for them. They will wait for this conversations to die off before the resume to posting their hate. I got a huge RPG ready on my shoulders for when they decide to come out. Gonna blast them into pieces. They better come out with guns blazing. |
There may be criticism of gear like there always has been, but I don’t understand why that would bother you WC. I guess unless it is the specific personalities of the posters doing it that is rubbing you wrong way. You clearly aren’t married to any of this gear, so who cares if people criticize the gear, as long as they aren’t making it personal? You’re indifferent to the gear anyway, right? Not that I’m encouraging criticism, but I think if it comes just blow it off because it’s not like you’ll have the component two months later anyway |
@inna: You sure talk alot for someone who really doesn’t contribute much. You entered this arena and pooped all over the field so now I’m stepping on your sh!t. It would be once to see you do or show something good, but i don’t see it happening. With regards to what bothers me: It’s the sh!t talkers that talk all this game and change their opinion once they know the brand they originally liked. It’s pathetic to see that. Weak move and lack of character. If this offends anyone then good. It would be offensive only to the ones that fall within my description. If you aren’t this kind of person and didn’t do what i described above then you ain’t got a thing to worry about. The same suspects will do the same thing when i release the dcs and msb video I’m working hard on. They come and will begin to talk about how they know a dac that costs 10% of the money of the msb and dcs that i have and how it would easily beat both. Before that statement goes live, SEND ME THE DAC OR AMP OR CABLE that you claim can come and clown any of my components here and if it does then I’ll send you a check for $1,000 and i will go on record on YouTube. Who is willing to take me up on it ? I’m as serious as a heart attack. One grand will go to the one who can put something at my door that can best any of my components (DAC, amp, preamp) and that MSRP for less. You’ll get your heart broken once i record the first video of your miracle component and no don't worry i will not play any tricks either. I'd be as honest as possible. |
Why so serious? You want to break peoples heart? This is all just a game. Who cares what others think!?! When you have REAL self esteem, everything is fun and NO ONE is wrong. High end audio has no rules, no right or wrong. It is all personal and subjective. Every man for himself. Have you looked at others systems.....not one alike.....nada. Well, a few are copiers, but most just do their own thing. Same here. The problem with this thread is that it is about stuff most people cannot buy....so it has very little relevance to most people.....then add the ego strutting and this is how it looks now. If you can, try to stop taking any of this personally. You are not going to win love from people. People either love you or they don’t. If you post on any open forum then you will have to deal with ego....yours and everyone else’s......unless.....you can lighten up and just present gear and stop qualifying your reasons......you don’t need a reason. Just present the gear and let everyone’s ego do their thing. Most people are not teachable.....are you? The drama will always happen......no matter how you try to steer it. Let go....go with the flow. Just present what you love and love what you present. Very simple. Enjoy every second. Some will like what you do, some will not. If you want unconditional love....then you better go inside and find it there.....for the world will not give it to you. When you find it inside.....then you could care less what others think. The mind is a make wrong machine. The heart.....is pure love and joy. Stay in your heart. |