Numbers game, open to interpretation. Mephisto is rated 97/100, Boulder is 98/100. Imagine 100 to be perfection. Then Mephisto has 3 steps to go, but Boulder only 2. That makes B much closer to perfection than M. Several people here including Jay noted significantly better clarity/resolution/detail for B vs M. This correlates with the interpretation that B is much closer to perfection than M.
In other matters of life, the powerlifter who lifts 500 lbs gets the gold medal, the one at 495 gets silver, the one at 490 gets bronze, but the masses below 490 get nothing, as if they are all weaklings like me at 200. Crazy. |
People,
you all need to remember that you don't get TWICE the performance by going from a stereo to a mono amp. It does not work that way. The mono will give you more separation, no cross talk, more power, but holistically speaking the stereo amp will be at least 80% of what the monos are.
Don't think monos will be twice as good because you are going to be disappointed. Stereo amps are always going to be the best bang for the buck. |
we know that we ain't that dumb well some might be but most aren't plus who said it would and come on viber you can't lift more than 150 well if you can good job |
@kren0006, Please add some punctuation. |
nah, that would make it seem like a serious post. i put a lot of thought into everything i post, lol. i don't always comport with the Chicago Manual, although often i do |
80% and 100% is night and day. Besides, it is hard to measure these things in percentage. From audiophile perspective, true audiophile perspective, only separates are acceptable. This means only mono blocks. Stereo is for the masses, it is not best value, it has no value at all. |
I've been getting messages in regards to the MSB vs DCS shootout. As i stated before, this will happen once we hit 5k subscribers. If you all can do a small part spreading the word throughout different forums then that would be great.
It looks like it will be a month before we do this. |
@inna,
Sometimes your posts make a lot of sense and sometimes not so much.
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Stereo amps is a compromise and in my view not an acceptable one. Very simple.
And I mentioned before that comparing Mephisto stereo and Boulder/D'Agostino monos was a wrong and potentially misleading approach. |
Besides, we are talking about near top of the line speakers. Who in the right mind would consider buying $100k - $175k speakers and stereo power amps ? Temporarily maybe, but you got to get monos eventually. |
Did i say i wasn’t going to buy monos?
I’m not sure where i wrote that?
What makes you think i won’t do monos of some sort down the road at some point?
I can throw any gryphon stereo amp against any lower priced monos from any manufacturer and trust me it won’t lose. You act like the word "stereo" amp when it comes to a 60k Mephisto is some sort of compromise? Really...that amp stumps on just about any mono under it..
What about the monster $110k constellation hercules mk2 stereo amplifier?. |
Inna, everything in audio is a compromise and trade-off, every single part from the chassis panel to binding post to the feet the amp stands on. It makes no sense to draw the line at mono vs. stereo as if it's some unsurmountable gulf in performance or a singular deterministic attribute. In reality everything is on a spectrum, plenty of people use SOTA speakers with stereo amps that perform much better for their taste than some monos will. |
YES. The issue of mono vs stereo is a small part of sound quality. If you took the circuit of a dual mono stereo amp, and put each channel in a separate mono chassis, the sound would be almost identical. But in the real world, things are more complex. Comparing the mono amps to the stereo amps of the same company, the mono amps have different circuits with more power, so the mono amps are likely to be significantly better as though you have a wholly different product. Years ago, I had the Krell KSA 50 stereo class A amp. I then compared the KMA 100 monos, the same design in a double power mono version, which were significantly more extended and revealing in HF. It wasn't merely a difference of more separation, no crosstalk--it was a markedly different sound.
That said, it appears that there is a general house sound for each company. D'ag and Pass are in the sweet camp. Boulder and Soulution are in the neutral/revealing camp. I suspect I would prefer even the stereo Soulution integrated to any mono from D'ag and Pass. I heard this on the M6 video between Soulution and Pass. For smaller differences between Boulder and Mephisto, so far we know that Boulder mono offers more clarity/neutrality than Mephisto stereo. Would Mephisto mono offer more clarity/neutrality than Boulder stereo? My guess is that I would prefer the neutrality of Boulder stereo to the Mephisto mono. There is still probably a fundamental difference between the house sound of each company, with lesser differences between the models of the same company, whether mono or stereo. That's because the designer of all the products of company A has a different DNA or concept from the designer of all the products of company B. |
inna,
So the Boulder 3060 stereo amp is a no go? |
Well...i just installed the preamp module on the MSB dac...OMG...holy crap...the difference is like DAY and NIGHT and I’m not even using the dac straight into the amp!!!
It's a small computer card that msrps for $6k and man the difference is just unbelievable. I don't know how they do it... |
Sure, big Boulder stereo should be better than any mono Pass and most others. That's not what I wanted to emphasize. The correct way to build power amps is to go mono blocks. Some brands don't even have stereo amps, only mono.
As for the thought that in the end everything is to a degree a compromise, there is no argument about that. But the spirit is as few compromises as possible, especially at the highest level of equipment costing funny amounts.
It's hard to compare Soulution and Boulder by only watching those videos. They appear to have quite different house sound. Like them both. |
137am and i am going to bed now. Things are coming along nicely.
More coming your way soon. |
@whitecamaross
Cool !
I am glad that you are doing that .
Thank You |
I have tried bot Mono and Stereo of the same vintage/brand. IMO I do not think there is a huge difference . maybe a little quieter , a little better clarity and separation of instruments. I personally believe most of this to be power related. Monos are always higher powered compared to their Stereo brethren, sometimes double . If you ever noticed the THD or distortion rating on an amp at like some amps are rated for example 100 watts . If you only use or need about 10 watts the distortion is much less at 10 watts than 100 , especially if your speaker can operate on 10 watts. The problem is when you have speakers the are pretty in efficient like 85 or 86 db and the MFG says you can use any amp from 20 watts to 300 watts . The 300 watt amp will sound much cleaner (free of distortion) if and when you turn it up past background music See here https://pro.harman.com/insights/harman-pro/new-insights-into-the-dangers-of-using-power-amplifiers-t...So if your speakers are highly efficient as in most horn types. Like 92-115 db efficient or it is actually called speaker sensitivity. I do not think a couple of mono amps that are capable of 300watts into 8 ohms vs a stereo amp that is capable of 100 watts into each channel will sound much better . and that is just an example . I am not saying the power rating is enough or too little . It will depend on the speaker. I know most speaker types sound better with more power . When i was in high school the thought was that you could blow the speakers in your car with a high powered amp, that was rated higher than what your speakers called for . that is not the case , unless you try to run 100 watts into a 20 watt speaker and rank it full bore for 8 hours or something like that . I have always found that speakers generally sound better over amped ,as long as it is not outrageous. The reason is that you a not using all of that power because you do not need to use much of the available power to get them to sound loud . I learned that most speakers are blown by trying to play them too loud for that amp that you are using. the speakers or speaker drivers blow due to the high rate of distortion or clipping which turns out that clipping is DC voltage Here is an explanation of clipping from wikipedia :
Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven and attempts to deliver an output voltage or current beyond its maximum capability. Driving an amplifier into clipping may cause it to output power in excess of its power rating. In the frequency domain, clipping produces strong harmonics in the high-frequency range (as the clipped waveform comes closer to a squarewave). The extra high-frequency weighting of the signal could make tweeter damage more likely than if the signal was not clipped. In general, the distortion associated with clipping is unwanted, and is visible on an oscilloscope even if it is inaudible
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@greyhound
That was an excellent post
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Agree with grey9hound. Also, the big advantage for me of 2 mono amps vs the same circuitry in a dual mono stereo chassis is that I can lift each mono by myself, but not the nearly 2x heavier stereo. Otherwise the sound of 2 monos vs dual mono stereo is nearly identical. For example, the D'ag monos are each manageable by weight. |
So that we can orient ourselves in advance of this DAC shootout to better understand which hi-end DACs you’ve owned WC to frame your comments in light of past ownership, you obviously have Rossini now, and most recently had Vivaldi. Others I recall are only three. An Esoteric cd player that you really liked and I think you’ve mentioned some Lampizator and Chord Dave. I’m sure I’m forgetting others but it’s been so long.
What else have you had at the 5-figure level or above that might be relevant for comparison purposes? |
The DACs i have owned prior to MSB Reference:
-Lampizator Pacific
-Chord Dave
-PS Audio Directstream
-Esoteric K1
-DCS Vivaldi with clock and upsampler
-DCS Rossini with clock
The only direct comparison pricewise is the Vivaldi, but i am a believer the Rossini with clock is the best bang for the buck from DCS and it gives you over 90% (IMO) of Vivaldi’s performance.
That said, the conversation here needs to be more around each manufacturer’s "house sound" or flavor. Both are excellent and we really are knit-picking . What i can CONTINUE to echo here is that synergy is KEY. In some systems, DCS could add sparkle to lifeless speakers while the MSB can add more naturalness and organic tonality to speakers that are extremely neutral.
Could you go wrong for buying either, HELL NO.
That said, the following items have arrived: (soon you will find out)
-New stereo power amplifier (purchased)
-New Power conditioner (purchased)
-New top end powercords (loaner)
-New Music Server (purchased)
-New top end speaker cables (loaner)
-New top end xlrs (loaner)
-New top end ethernet cable (loaner)
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Next week, i will be introducing my 2 new amp stands from Artesania which will replace the critical mass stands. The model is the Artesania Master KIO and here are the specs:
EXTERNAL STRUCTURE
It ́s made of metal filled with special particles and elastomers. The uprights have a diameter of 60 mm. These factors create a rack heavy, resistant and stable. The resonance coefficient of the structure is significantly lowered. The paint used is textured for diffusion purposes. INTERNAL SUSPENDED STRUCTURE
Isolated from external structure. Eliminates vibrations that are transmitted from solid and acoustic sources through the creation of decouples; steel needles supported on isolating discs. These provide extra tiers of anti-resonant protection. This suspended audio rack has a triple decoupling. TEFLON CILINDERS
Support the internal structure and isolates from the external structure. (Diameter 38 mm) LINEAR ARMS
Arms made from carbon fiber. The arms hold adjustable spikes (can be located in different positions) also support isolating discs and damping pads. Total flexibility in different positions and easy to change. ISOLATION DISCS
Support each of the electronic components (without any need for shelves). Easy installation facilitated by an elastic insert which provides stability to place electronic components on the adjustable spikes. DECOUPLING BASE
Stainless steel discs support the spikes of the uprights. Two types of floor pads are included, with different sonic behavior, depending on the room acoustics. Check manual to use the proper pads for the bases.
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Man you're such a pup when it comes to dacs, lol : )
But that's why it's a fertile area for you to explore now. Lots of possibilities |
here is one video i took over a suncoast audio: Kharma Speakers and Boulder 1160/1110 https://youtu.be/zhkL0tjPui8My apologies for the mic clipping. I just noticed it!. Ugh... Well, at least use the video to give you somewhat of an idea as to what the combo sounds like. |
Klipping or not, - I love how these Karmas perform. Beautiful! Lecker 😋!
Michélle 🇿🇦
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Kharmas sound incredible to me. I could listen all day to this. So musical and inviting.
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Yeah, Kharma/Boulder - excellent sound. As for the MSB dac...I am not sure, I have a very initial impression that it does something that I don't like, maybe it tries to be analog source too hard. |
Thought the Kharma/Boulder combo was so musical. Sorry Jay I think this sound beats your setup but it just may be the room. As we all know a room plays as much to do with how things will sound as the equipment does. |
By a significant margin, the Kharma's offer superior reproduction of this track, which we've heard many times before and recently on the Magicos. Go Kharma/Boulder!! They make the track via thenMagicos sound kind of thin, undernourished, slightly hollow, and the full roundness of the voice is missing. |
I understand when people like different things. I don’t take it personal guys.
That said, there is one minute detail you all are forgetting...just a tiny one...the source you all heard is $120k and the music server another 30k plus the Boulder 1110/1160...so yes...200k in electronics...just a minute detail...just a tiny one :-)
You've heard the m6 with less than half of that money. I am hoping you all don't expect expect for a 172k speaker to make electronics sound twice as good as what they are?
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I agree that the Kharma setup sounds better than WC's current setup with the m6. However, like he mentioned, a bit of a difference in electronics.
This brings back the question - which is better:
1) Less expensive electronics + more expensive speakers
2) More expensive electronics + less expensive speakers
I'm sure it depends upon the speakers and the electronics being used. However, so far, we seem to have two cases that support #2:
a. Wilson setup > Magico setups
b. Kharma setup > Magico setups
Either that, or folks just don't prefer the Magico overall. We will definitely find out more, once WC brings in more expensive electronics to try with the Magicos.
Dave
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Isn't that why i brought more expensive speakers? To try different components of different price points?
Let me present another question:
Would a wilson wamm best a chronosonic XVX if you put 400k worth of electronics on the chronosonic and 200K on the WAMM? I will let you all answer that question... |
I was able to sit and listen to the same Kharma/Boulder setup at SunCoast last week when I was picking up my Diablo 300. Also listened to the smaller Kharma S7 with a Hegel integrated that displayed the Dharma beauty. I have not been a fan of the Hegel presentation but I could sense I would love these in my 14’ x 16’ room with my new amp. I really shouldn’t visit SunCoast often... |
Am I the only one who has mentioned THE ROOM! |
Jay's room is good enough. They got Boulders there, that's the ticket, I think. |
Next video will display Fyne Audio speakers. Stay tuned for that !
And that’s "fyne" if you also prefer the beautiful $14,999 speaker over the $172k M6. Liking something doesn’t make it better. It’s more about your pallette and what you can or can’t handle sonically.
Use my videos to simply steer your own journey somewhat. All i asked was for an "open mind".... Nothing else. I said it before and I'll say it again, don't prosecute the m6 without giving it a fair trial... |
I am sorry if it upsets anyone - Magico M6 are incomparably better than those Kharma. And I like Kharma sound.
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Jay,
It's been a long time since you heard the Chord Dave, and you didn't talk much about it back then. The Dave has a reputation for neutrality/clarity. How did it compare to the DCS Vivaldi or Rossini? Please don't be biased by the price difference and say the Dave doesn't compete--just describe what you heard. In the same way, don't say that the M6 is much better than Kharma because of the price difference. I described what I heard above without price bias. You gave away some of your findings about the MSB as it having less detail/clarity than DCS Rossini. That may be a factor in my perception that the M6 is less colored on the voice than Kharma, but I bet that the M6 superiority will be seen. To answer this question, it will be easy to do the M6 with MSB in your room. |
130am - still listening...
Things are just on a whole different level...
The next time you hear the m6, it will be vastly improved from what you last heard. Witness a "chameleon" of a speaker. |
Viber +1 re magico. Listen to pronunciation of "clarity". Ironic?
Jay+1 re "chameleon" qualifier. I recall you mentioning some components impose their will while others are more amenable.
Your description of these opposite traits is quite insightful.
Probably one of each is best. You wouldn't want two components trying to impose each of their respective wills, would you?
Balance. Compatability. Ying and yang. Synergy.
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Derek has owned Maggie III for years. Both of us appreciate the neutral midrange/HF character of planar magnetics and ribbons, which are superior to all dynamic speakers for this quality. To be fair, the Kharma creates a smaller image, which aids its focus. The tweeter is good, but compared to the M6, the midrange is colored, most apparent on voice. Magico is known for suppression of boxy resonances and colorations, which applies to their cheaper models as well. |
Glad that you are getting the system to sound better WC |
Jay,
I agree when you said, "liking something doesn't make it better." But instead of saying it's about your sonic preferences, I'll say that if you want high fidelity and naturalness, you choose neutrality and lack of coloration. On occasion, I have preferred Product A in early evaluation, but further listening reveals that Product B is more neutral/natural. I learn to appreciate B for the fact that it comes closer to reality. Other people may "like" certain aspects even if they openly admit that high fidelity is not their standard. Listening skills don't come easily, and we must reference what we hear in audio systems to the real thing. Live, unamplified concerts are rare these days, but fortunately we all hear speaking voices in real life every day. It is interesting to hear radio or TV voices repeatedly for many years, and then meet them personally. I am often surprised at the differences. This forces me to recalibrate my preferences. |
So far, i am prepared to say that the only speaker I've ever owned in which the bass doesn't sound like it's coming from a box is from the Magico M6. It just hits you and you can't detect where it is coming from. |
Fyne audio 704 speaker and the the classe Audio separates: https://youtu.be/qPhfqe0zPzQAmazing speakers for $14,999. I heard things behind the music that aren’t easily picked up by other speakers. This is due to their crazy sensitivity of 96db! |
Mighty fine, Fyne. Excellent midrange neutrality, almost on a par with M6. The M6 has deeper bass and an overall more weighty tonal balance compared to Fyne. I like the Fyne the best out of all three speakers. Advantage of M6--the most linear and neutral midrange. Advantage of Fyne--a leaner tonal balance with freedom from bass murkiness. The Kharma is way behind, with terribly muddy and heavy lower midrange and mid/upper bass on the male voice. Classe electronics are euphonic in general. I heard one--D200. From reviews, I gather that the new Delta series still are euphonic. What does Mike at Suncoast think of the Deltas? Imagine the Fyne with neutral Boulder.
Just on sonic criteria, I rate the medium expensive Kharma the worst, the most expensive M6 in a tie with the cheapest Fyne. For music with deep bass, M6 is the choice; for other more brilliant music, Fyne is the choice. Best absolute performance and also outstanding value would be Fyne 704 at $15K + the cheapest Boulder 1161 at $22K. At 150 watts/ch into 8 ohms, 300 into 4, peak 450, the Fyne + 1161 would please many people.
Thanks Jay for exposure to the Fyne. Now let's hear the top Fyne models. |
It's okay sound for the price. |
