Nothing takes a good thread off course faster than AudioTroy. (that said, if you want to hear why what he sells is better, or can outperform, or his amazing system matching skills... he's tremendous at that).
Wish I could have been there to have a beer and pizza with you WCSS, hoping to get back next year.
I'm usually the guy in a concert T-shirt asking them to play my playlist that I bring on my phone just in case... to plug in. Or if I can drive the streamer for a few minutes.
A few years back Symphony of Destruction was a personal favorite to demo a few very cool MFG's were more than happy to let it rip.
Last year I had two people immediately make me turn off Royal Blood (which is really just good rock music).
Music Direct / ATC let me roll back at 5pm last year to let some remastered Zeppelin rip, that was cool of them.
The magico room was absurdly stuffy (there were a couple last year). No getting them to let some rock rip.
It's a fun show. I like to get there early on Friday. Hopefully next year. |
WC,
Thanks for your honest description of all these speakers. What you say about the Muraudio makes sense, because omni speakers are even more curved and dispersed than the curved panels of ML, so the HF are even more rolled off, mids are also smeared and warm. Read the intelligent review of the Sanders 10e by Robert Greene in the Absolute Sound. Greene is an intelligent musician, recording engineer and scientist. I agree with him about the correctness of flat panel design and direct sound. This also applies to the GT speaker as a flat panel, so it must be heard fully toed in to realize its full clarity. Isn't it nice that these 2 contenders are reasonably and competitively priced? No accident--proper design and value, compared to almost everything else.
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Hey whitecamaross - so cool to meet you. Thanks for taking the time to chat.
The show was so fun. It’s not perfect, and so many things can turn a good system bad. BUT you get to check out a ton of stuff and meet so many people.
the GT Audio was fantastic...
Also the ARC and Wilson.
I never got the full Focal demo, but those speakers are incredible.
I actually enjoyed the Von Schweikert Audio Endeavor MKII. They were well set out into the room and sounded very large. On closer inspection I found a rear firing tweeter. The blues vocals and guitars coming out of them were amazing.
I really liked the Lampizator room! The system sounded really, really organic. They also played great music not the same boring stuff you get in so many of the other rooms. And meeting Lukasz was the icing on the cake.
oh and just seeing the Magico subs.... hilarious. Freaking Huge. |
@audiotroy
i respectfully disagree with your assessment of the gt audio room, persona, and muraudio.
First off, the persona room was empty the 2 times I went in it. I was the only person inside listening on both occasions. Subpar electronics and just didn’t not have any sort of wow factor. Keep in mind, I own that same speaker and have it in my home so I guess you could say I have credibility in my assessment of such.
Secondly, the muraudio room had a cool looking speaker with an interesting look and design but they continued to play music that was just acoustic music. I requested for them to play something with vocals and they played “California dreams” by Diana Krall. I felt like the mids and highs were warm and lacked more definition. Maybe it was the components?
Lastly, and again I mean no disrespect, The persona paradigm can’t come close to the sound of the GT audioworks 3.1. I’m TELLING YOU, as a current paradigm persona owner that they DONT. Yes, I’m bashing something I currently own and I am 100% fine with it because I don’t put food on the table with this stuff. I promised everyone HERE who follows MY THREAD that I’d be real and transparent so here I go:
THE PARADIGM PERSONAS DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING FROM GT AUDIO.
yes, I’m pretty much saying my personas are INFERIOR in sound quality and I’m admitting that they would get their @ss handed to them all they long. Can’t even compare them. There’s no reading in between the lines here. I’m putting out in front street for everyone to read here.
Enough said
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4425,
i understand your point and I will be reviewing the Jeff Rowland 535 next week. Stay tuned for my impressions of this “affordable amp”
anyhow guys, there was a lot to see and I’m glad I went to the show. I got to meet a few of you which was amazing to say the least. I was also glad to give you my input on components that you wanted my input on. Make no mistake that this type of event allows you to gauge things better as well as to identify the “snake oil” in the industry.
I also like seeing small manufacturers like gt audio, sanders, etc make huge efforts to compete against the big dogs and really bring it to them. Sanders and GT audio were great to say the least. Steve from GT audio was an incredible host that really went out of his way. He played a tremendous amount of music that Included a great record from Michael Jackson on vinyl.
It is SO COOL to interact with these small manufacturers because they try much harder to please you and to talk to you one on one. It feels as if they do whatever they can to earn your business and that is very especial.
To me the worst price/performance ratio room was the Wilson audio Alexx and agostino relentless monos. Zero soul, nothing jumped at you. It was as if they just plugged stuff in and they expected magic to occur. I went 4 different times in this room and it just didn’t keep me there. Horrible music selection on their part as well and it was just a bunch of dudes wearing suits hanging around the gear like they belonged to the secret service. You didn’t dare to walk to them and say “can you please change that funeral music and play something different?”
Steve from GT audioworks played mainstream stuff as well and I said it out loud in his room which was full of people: “thank you Steve for not playing funeral music and playing more mainstream stuff” and what do you think the entire room did when I said that? They all busted out laughing with my comment because they know I’m being honest and keeping it real.
Look I get it, manufacturers want to play their playlists but how about they do that for 2 days out of 3 ? Why not let day 3 of the show be the day where they can ask you to bring your own music to play it? Wouldn’t that be cool if they had the event schedule broken out with DAY 3 being called “ bring your own music day” or something like that ? Don’t you think people would be excited to return on day 3?
Another pain point is WHY are some of these people in the rooms so stuck up on themselves? Why are they so full of themselves? How do you pretend to sell product if you have zero social skills? I get it, most of these products are built by nerds who aren’t exactly social butterflies but then why NOT hire a social butterfly to go on these trips and who knows the gear?
All in all, great show which has made me reevaluate my own system and that is a great thing.
i thank Steve and the entire staff who treated me and everyone in the room incredibly well. Incredible group of people with “soul” and knowledge.
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In response to your post Audio Troy I do believe you are a dealer In Jersey City in a court of law you and I would be a biased interested witness therefore whatever we would have to say would have to be discounted. I do not believe you were in my room at Axpona and if you did you did not introduce yourself to either me or Greg. Well I have to say is that you have completely disregarded any of white Camaro SS posts with regard to how impressed he was he was with the GT system. He visited our room on three separate occasions and spent quite a long time listening to the system and was shaking his head in disbelief I know he love the system. Let the consumer decide You are correct in what you say and that they should listen to your system and to the GT audio works system.
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If you thought the Sanders were good once heard with better amps they are WONDERFUL! More dynamics and deeper and more controlled bass. Your BLOCK amps would be a great match IMHO.
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Hate to be a grinch but the op was initially searching for great amplifiers listening to some very good ones one at a time. it would be nice if the thread could recenter toward the initial goal. great amps! |
WCSS,
Thanks for going to the show. It makes for a good dose of equipment reviews that you may not have brought into your own home.
From a perspective of "where you are" at in this quest, I think it was a very good choice to get on an airplane and go hear other things.
Drives you crazy sometimes.... the music they play is not the type that we listen to. Don't they want to sell the equipment? I'll never get that, and will tell them right to their face that they are not setting a good example to music lovers that like other types than they do.
I'm glad you listened to the GT Audio speakers. But in the end.... the Martin Logan/Constellation Audio system showed what sounded best, and it was Martin Logan.
Focal's top speaker is so massive. Would love to hear that baby. Enjoy.
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WWSS,
The Vienna Acoustics room at Axpona put on a Iron Maiden album on for me!The other guys were not very happy with my music selection and cleared out!It made my show!I was mortified at some of the music demos playing on high end systems!I did get a few rooms to play some Floyd though.Had a good time at Axpona!
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Sanders 10e: better sounding than muraudio sp1 to me. Good highs, could use more oomph on the lows. More dynamic sounding than magnepan 3.7i plus more “bite” on the highs. Magnepan 3.7i were just a tad relaxed on the highs.
By they way, I asked in all 3 rooms to play something different such as dire straits “you and your friend “ and the answer was “they don’t have it” so you are essentially stuck with what they play. My comments above are based on what was playing.
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Muraudio sp1- not a tall sounding speaker. No music above your ears. Mids sound muffled to me. They look very cool though.
Magnepan 3.7i - taller images, nice wide sound but lacks dynamics. Things sound as if you had the “night listening mode” turned on so that there are no dynamic swings. |
Do you know which Constellation amp and preamp? |
13a with constellation amps and preamp smokes the other 2. |
WC,
Note how the relatively narrow ML 13a sounds good. It has enough panel area for good sound output, but focuses the sound better with more HF content than the Neo. The neutral Constellation electronics help. They are probably using the cheaper Con amps which use the same circuit module as the more expensive and powerful Con models, so the sound is about as good. Don't miss Sanders and Muraudio for stats. How does the ML 13a sound compared to the GT Audio and Persona 3F for clarity?
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Some people just know how to put a system together. |
Ok guys,
umm I’m here now and the best system I’ve heard for the money which totally blew me away Is in room 404.
Martin Logan 13a with constellation preamp and amp. WOW. I’m shocked how good that system sounds. I’m speechless.
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audiotroy,
I only heard the GT at my friend faxer's home, in a nice setup of large room with high ceiling. (At first I misinterpreted your statement. If you had written "Viber, I heard the GT ....." that would have stated what you mean). What did you think of the Sanders electrostatic? Thanks for your unbiased opinion that the Muraudio is an excellent electrostatic. Hopefully you can become a dealer for this superior speaker at a nice price. Merrill W uses the Muraudio as his reference speaker, and you might like to become a dealer for the Merrill Element amps. They promise to be a bargain for SOTA revealing, neutral sound.
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It will be interesting to hear what the best " per dollar " systems will be. I'm still horny. Enjoy ! MrD. |
According to the 24 Page ONGOING report on Audio Shark it appears the Favorite room for several people features the T+A CD Player, The DAVE Dac, Dagostino Amps and Magico Speakers (M6 I believe). Why they paired the T+A with the DAVE instead of the Chord BLU2 Spinner is something I would like to know. Its also the Fave room of Mike (so Far) the owner of Audio Shark and Suncoast Audio. He doesnt carry DAG so one certainly cant say he is bias. The AXPONA Report on Audio Shark is HUGE with Photos of an enormous amount of rooms so I would suggest all check it out. |
Viber heard the GT audio at both Cap and at Axpona they were not that good at all heard them at CAP big room heard at Axpona smaller room, image size too big, lack of focus, bass response didn't seem to sound right.
The only pannel speaker at the show so far that was impressive was the Muiraaudio out of Canada at $15k a bargain.
Our Persona 9H setup sounds more realistic then anything heard so far at the show.
So far walked the show for two days, haven't heard a single system that did it all.
So far winners for us that were very good not in any particular order:
1: Big Horns from Germany
2: Muiraudio
3: Alta Audio cheapie $5k speakers sounded great
4: Vimburg
5: Paradigm Persona 3F not a great setup, needed rake angle to bring up the soundstage and the speakers were too close together, also AQ cables not good, but clarity was excellent, midrange was very good, soundstage was impressive and the bass response was excellent. with a few system tweeks would have been way better for the money the speakers were fanatastic.
6: T+A $75k floorstanders were impressive for such a small size reference speaker, don't know if they are worth that kind of money, the electrostatic tweeter coupled to a line array with buillt in subs was very musical in a way too small room. Would have liked them to be taller
We would love to have you visit our showroom you can hear what a properly setup set of 9H can sound like you can go hear the GT and whatever speakers you also want to hear in the New York Metro area.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Hi ,
I am glad you went with what I recommended. Makes me happy I can help out. |
Hi WC,
This is not related to the current discussion, but just wanted to say thanks for confirming your recommendation of the Gryphon Diablo 300 for my pricepoint, B&W 803 D2 speakers, and large room. Just got it set up, and out of the box it sounds awesome. I don't think my speakers could sound any better without spending at least double on the amp. You were right - the Diablo really makes bass come alive on my 803's - really had no idea my speakers could do that.
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WC,
Also, klh007 on the last page said that the Alsyvox Tintoretto had the most live/real percussion. That really says it all. That speaker is the proper size--big enough for spaciousness, but not too big that you get time smear which detracts from clarity. $65,000 for that, a much better proposition than any big monster at the show. I would say that this speaker or the Sanders, Muraudio, GT are the leading contenders for you. |
WC,
It is highly unlikely that a dynamic speaker at any price will have the accuracy/resolution at all freq of very low mass drivers of properly designed ribbons and stats. The big Focal may have excellent HF due to the Be tweeter, but the rest of its range is likely inferior. Again, don't be impressed by mere bigness, etc. I bet that the Be midrange driver of your Persona 3F has more accurate midrange than all these big dynamic speakers with their midrange drivers. Can you hear the words and instrumental details more clearly in any of these speakers compared to your 3F? Don't miss the Sanders stats. Someone on the previous page loved the 10e. Roger Sanders admitted his mistakes in his past curved panel designs, and is now the leading advocate of flat panel designs, so you will be welcomed there when you insist on full toe-in and listening precisely at the sweet spot. I hope you do the same at GT so you will maximize the value there. Still, listen to the Muraudio stats, even though I am suspicious of their quasi-omni design. You never know who has the best materials technology for stator and membrane, and transformer design, which may compensate for flawed radiation patterns.
A meaningful trip for you might be coming to Laurel, Md to hear the Alsyvox, then less than 200 miles to NJ to hear GT Audio's setup, then back again to Alsyvox. You could easily bring your 3F in your car so you can have the ultimate A/B's for details and clarity. These are all the finest examples of their technologies at very reasonable prices. If the Alsyvox is the best, judging from the long experiences of alexbpm and gwalt, then you could say that the Alsyvox is even the best value, since you are salivating over ridiculously priced big dinosaur dynamic speakers.
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I’m going to hear more speakers today. Let’s see what reactions I’ll post. For the money, I think the gt audioworks 3.1 are a steal. I heard them with and without subs and they were great. I plan to listen to a lot more.
you are correct about elevator music. They are sooo afraid of playing a mix of music.
So far, the Wilson Alexx and relentless Monos were the worst price/performance I’ve heard. Sluggish, slow, veiled, no emotion. I went in that room twice and I felt like the music never came out and hugged me.
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Yeah, the Block stuff was no joke either. Build quality looked second to none. Not as big as the Gryphon amps I saw in a couple of rooms. Those were friggin monsters. But the Blocks were huge in their own right. I can only imagine what those would do for my Salon 2s.....
I totally concur the guy giving the Focal demo was great. My buddy and I thanked him for playing different types of music in the demo. So much of the stuff at Axpona is what we refer to as elevator music. It's like some of the exhibitors are afraid to play anything with slam. All they want to play is "slow stuff". I would love to hear what those $295,000 Von Schweikert Ultra 11s could do playing the same playlist the Focal guy played with the Utopias...... |
Klipsch, Volti, Avantgarde...….I'm still horny...….. |
Snafujg
i concur that the focal grande utopias are just spectacular. I mean, they just slaughtered anything I heard including the magico m6 WITH SUBS. I’ve got a whole new found respect for focal and what they are able to do. Their utopia line is NO JOKE. What’s even more impressive is that they were in a crappy space and they STILL delivered. The guy who did the demo was awesome to play all kinds of music through them and everything was impressive. Yes 225k is a lot of money but they certainly sounded like 225k. So far that is the BEST speaker I’ve heard in my life PERIOD.
oh and just for kicks, they were streaming tidal... meanwhile the rest of the big top speaker manufacturers were using ultra expensive turntables...
block audio chose a bad room and speakers. I will give them a pass since this is their first time in the United States. They need to get their game together next time. I hope you saw the sheer size and construction of the monoblocks. |
WC. Make sure you checkout the Von Schweikerts in the Nirvana A room, the Ultra 9's in Red. @200k, definitely a speaker for the .1%ers. But that speaker, even in that gigantic room, was very impressive. Almost as impressive as the $750k Focal/NAIM setup. The demo I heard of those Grand Utopias blew me away. I used to have Focal 1028 so I know the Focal sound. That Grand Utopia bass was just unbelievable. And the highs were as crisp and clear as anything I've heard. Love the BE tweeter.
I stopped at Block audio. Too bad they're in that little room. Total overkill with those gigantic mono blocks and those little book shelf speakers. Wish they had some bigger speakers to show off what those amps can do. |
WC,
GT--yes, they are coherent, big, smooth, but how about their clarity, which no $120K dynamic speaker will have at the level of GT. GT is a contender for you, so go back and hear them again, and insist that they do the full toe-in with the midpoint of the flat panels facing your nose/eyes. When I first heard them not toed in, they were smooth, coherent, big, but when I toed them in fully, they had MUCH greater clarity without fatigue or edgy HF. To get the full benefits, they are really a one listener speaker, enjoyable in the sweet spot both sitting and standng. And the price is right, in the low teens without the sub. There is very little risk--as alexbpm and gwalt say, when people recognize the high quality/cost ratio, resale value will be decent. But you may not find a better speaker for a long time, so if you enjoy them for a few years, you will have gotten good value. (Before buying, take a short trip to Laurel, Maryland to see if the Alsyvox are better and can justify the much higher price. Laurel is a very short ride from DC. I am tempted). Listen without the sub, and you will still get enough quality bass for most music.
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Ok so I went to hear the GT audioworks 3.1 speaker with the matching subs and it was special. Very coherent, zero fatigue, smooth as butter, big sound. I was very impressed by them. To those of you who doubted that the speakers with the matching subs would sound coherent, REST ASSURED that they don’t have this issue. They sound as if it was all coming from a full range speaker. Very nice speakers without a doubt.
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Thanks WC! I had a wonderful time hanging with you at the show. Like I said this afternoon... Could not find a thing to complain about on the Focal Grand Utopia’s but partnered with the Naim system at approx. $750000 I buy the Sonus Faber Aida’s, AR Ref 10, Ref 160Ms and have money left over for a Lamborghini!
Have fun at the rest of the show and can’t wait to see what you write about the packages that arrived at your house today!!! -- Yes, a monumental tease for everyone!
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Go have a listen to the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD (60k) unbelievably dynamic it was like watching an OLED tv, don’t know if I could listen to this for 3-5 hrs but was impressive. Also the MBL 101e (70k) was very powerful with controlled bass but not the air I thought on the top. Also voices seemed larger than life. My favorite was the Sanders 10e, just plain musical and airy, not the deepest bass but very tuneful and 3D sounding.
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Yeah but both of those come at over $120K msrp.
Wow
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Best speakers I’ve heard so far:
focal grande utopia evo
Sonus Faber Aida 2
i am shocked by how good these Sonus saber Aida 2 are. |
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I want to say it was a pleasure to meet Paul (psnyder19) today at axpona. Great humble man and a pleasure to speak to. |
viber, I would think wc has the perfect marriage. She seems to like his music, taking part in some of his comparisons. My divorce had very little to do with my audio / music thing, as I had my own dedicated listening room throughout all of our 34 years together, and as long as our bills were paid, she never cared if I brought in another piece of gear, and that was quite often. She was / is a piano player, but never was interested in my gear or my music. WC, someone I know, thinks a lot about the Alta Audio " Statement " speakers, if they are on display. Mike Levy is the main guy behind that company, and although he probably does not remember me, we knew each other with his 1st foray into loudspeaker design. His next model down the line seems interesting as well. These are not horns, but do use ribbons in the high frequencies. I am still, and always will be, a horny guy !. Enjoy the show, MrD. |
WC,
Don't forget to have the Sanders and GT Audio panels fully toed in and sit in the sweet spot, otherwise you will not get anywhere near what these speakers are capable of in clarity. I know from my experience with them, even if the exhibitors don't. This may not be as critical with the Muraudio quasi-omnidirectional stat. MrD said that even with his horns, the direct sound is best. Even though horns spread the sound, there may be a subtle benefit fully toed in, listening at the sweet spot.
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Having attended the last few shows, there were a number of rooms that managed really good sound taking into account show condition difficulties, Raidho always left a lasting impression on me. Each time they were using only their small 2 way and Aavik amplification. Impressive the sound they could produce. Borresen (I believe one of their designers) left to form his own eponymous company. Speakers are similar in appearance but supposedly using newer driver materials. Enjoy your favorites on your list, but try to experience these two companies. No affilation, just my ears talking. Have fun this weekend in Chicago! |
Muraudio, Sanders (electrostatics), GT Audio (planar ribbons), Volti, Klipsch (horns). Concentrate on these SOTA contenders so you can go back several times. Don't waste much time on electronics which are hard to evaluate in an unknown system.
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Vimberg
VonSchweikert
Legacy
+1 |
Vimberg
Spatial X-3
PS Audio
Eikon (Gayle Sanders)
German Physiks
Gryphon
MBL
Muraudio
Odyssey , I think you will like Klaus
Legacy
Sanders
Scaena
Vandersteen
VonSchweikert
Magico |
Gentlemen - consider the background and financial stability of a company when investing in equipment. Sonic Frontiers, Mondial, Aragon and Melos are a just a few companies that are no longer in business. One man companies are another issue.
I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry and successfully developed drugs to market, I acutely understand research and development as well as marketing costs.
The margins charged for product in this commodity are extreme. Unless a company is well established, financially sound and maintains a solid long term business perspective (significant capital, continuous product development, viable long term history, etc) - they aren't a consideration for a significant investment (for me). I also prefer American companies (that doesn't mean made in America). Pass Laboratories is a good example.
I meet and had the CEO of a very successful, well known one man company (mentioned here for consideration) - after asking what my system was, invite himself to my house so I would audition his product. I politely declined his offer. |
Ok guys,
im in the hotel and only 2 miles away from the show. I look forward to tomorrow but that said, I am planning on going out tonight and have good food and intoxicate myself a little with some alcohol :)
I plan to visit the gt audio room. Is there any other speaker I should listen to ? |
whitecamaross
Enjoy the show! I look forward in reading about your impressions and thoughts on the various rooms visited. Happy Listening! |
closenplay,
Thanks for this valuable info about Alsyvox. If they are the best sounding speaker for almost all criteria, they could still make a lot of money if they cut their prices in half. Let's say the manufacturer's cost of the GT is $2000. At retail of $14K, he is making $12K if he sold direct. Alsyvox probably has a somewhat higher cost of production if the materials are finer and construction is more involved, maybe $5K. At retail for the Tintoretto of half of $65K, or $32K, that is still $27K in profit, sold direct. More people will buy the cheaper GT, but the Alsyvox as the hypothetically SOTA speaker will stimulate more people to stretch their budget and go for the Alsyvox if they significantly drop their prices. But even at present retail prices, the SOTA Alsyvox buys better sound than blowing comparable money on a full set of crazy expensive cables from Nordost, expensive famous brand mediocre sounding electronics, etc.
You started out here with a bang. Welcome, and keep it coming!
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mrD, Wouldn't it be a marriage made in heaven if the wife were supportive of a husband's audio passions, as long as she is not another strong-willed phile with contrary tastes. |
