I’d say You should stick to luxman amp and pre amp together. The 900u sound best when used together.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Thank you very much. I have D'Agostino M400 monos right now that I am using with the Luxman C900U pre. I love the combo but would like to add the M900u sometime in the future after a demo. I think the Ref 10 and Dag M400 monos could be an awesome combo despite conventional wisdom saying the D'Agostino Momentum preamp is the one to get. I’d say You should stick to luxman amp and pre amp together. The 900u sound best when used together. |
I would love to try your m400s. That amp is on my bucket list. as far as Wilsons having a small sweet spot, I’m not sure yet. I heard them before I bought them and they sounded great to my ears but I can’t report yet until my room begins to take shape tonight. My intention is to begin my first listening sessions tomorrow during the day at some point. I have heard from 3 other friends and they all have their money on the ref 10/pass 350.8 combo. What’s interesting to me is most people are writing off the black system but these are also people who are “old school” and in their late 50s. I’m not sure if age has to do with it but I noticed that the people who are voting for the ref10/pass combo have not heard or even seen the black system in person. I have a soft spot for the ref10 but I’m quite nervous that the new black system I have has improved drastically in terms of sound after its latest update which added mqa and a bunch of other connections on the back that were not present before. The update pretty much meant gutting the entire preamp and putting all new guts with the only thing kept in place being the chassis. That’s it. I remember listening to the black integrated in my home and omg that thing had MASSIVE bass. It sounded full and crazy powerful with insane control. The one thing I need to take into consideration is that this black system may need to be broken in. I may need to plug it in the leave on for a long time before I can hear it hit its stride. |
Black integrated is far superior... update: I plugged in the Wilson audios with some cheap speaker cable I had. I used the lumin s1 as my preamp and the Hegel h30. I threw the Wilson audios about 4 feet off the back wall and 3.5 from the side walls. They are about 6 feet apart which isn’t enough and I was about 13 feet away. Oh and the recliners were between me and the speakers. I stood about 4 feet behind the recliners and fired up the Wilsons and here are my impressions with this crappy “on the fly” audition: 1. Massive bass output that pressurized the room. Reminds me a lot of the platinum 500s. 2. HUGE MIDRANGE. 3. Smooth and detailed highs. 4. The most dynamic sound I’ve heard. With that said, since im in a new room which is better than my last one, I thought maybe it was the room helping so I plugged in my salons and they did sound better than in my last room. That said, the Wilson are just on another league. I mean, if I had walked into my room today and someone told me the black system was playing instead of the hegel and lumin s1, I would have believed it. It was THAT IMPRESSIVE. So right now, my preliminary impressions are that the Wilson audio is just incredible sounding even with me not using a preamp at all. What an amazing realism and detail. I TOTALLY DIG IT! |
Not shocked either. There are always plenty of used ML 585 in the marketplace available and they are hard to move at 6K. Lots of people with Buyers Remorse obviously. Not that price should indicate quality or performance but you would think the BC Integrated at around 25K would hopefully outperform the mediocre 585. |
jafant, the new Bel Canto Black EX integrated amp is $15,000 USD ($19,500 CAD). 250W per channel into 8 ohms, 500W into 4 ohms. A pile of great features (as per the Bel Canto Black ACI 600) including bass management, Bass EQ, Tilt control, Ethernet streaming, headphone output, programmable phono section, hires PCM, DSD, MQA. The whole digital front end of this piece is incredibly sophisticated. The chassis is solid, but not in the same league as the ACI 600, so definite cost savings there and a little less power. Overall, it will give very much of the ACI 600 performance for $10K USD less. |
The Belcanto Black integrated had the best bass I’ve ever heard. Even better than the black system version 1. I was told that my version 2 Black system now has the same bass if not better than the integrated. The Mark Levinson has enough juice to drive a lot of speakers but it won’t handle the big speakers with the same authority as the black integrated. What a lot of people here don’t understand is that the black line from Belcanto are THE BEST digital components in the world. They are at the top of the food chain sitting by themselves. The issue is that some people are judging it based on their past experience with perhaps a nad or wyre4sound or other class d products and the truth is that these brands are NOT at the level of this black gear. That’s a Toyota and the Belcanto Black line is a Bentley. Take a look at my patterns. I bought the luxman pieces 3 times, the Belcanto Black twice, audio Research ref 10 twice, etc. That’s a testament of how I feel about them. |
@joeinid , I encourage you to get the Lux M900u. Sure your Dagostinos M400 are little jewels. But the Lux is an exceptional piece among exceptional amps. It ´s internal is out of this world craftsmanship. Gold plated pure copper 3d circuit boards, rectangular solid core transformer wire, pure copper bus bars, ... And the sound, wow , can t describe all of its refinement and body...it s magical, its impossible to write into words. Something that has to be experienced. You are alerady one of the luckiest audiophiles to own the C900u, a truly exceptional pre. I do beleive the M900u is even more exceptional than the pre. You would own the full pair, a lifetime audiophile achievement. |
Thank you so much for your response. I plan on getting it. The Luxman preamp is outstanding. I've been wanting Luxman since I heard a full M800a mono and C800 pre setup. It was wonderful back then and I am sure better now. 03-31-2018 2:07pm@joeinid , I encourage you to get the Lux M900u. Sure your Dagostinos M400 are little jewels. But the Lux is an exceptional piece among exceptional amps. It ´s internal is out of this world craftsmanship. Gold plated pure copper 3d circuit boards, rectangular solid core transformer wire, pure copper bus bars, ... |
Update: just got everything hooked up. First up is the Belcanto. Not broken in as some of you know it just got a full update. Right now I am also using the ps audio p20 and everything is connected to it. My impression is that it is not good at all. Not really impressed but I have to be fair. It just came back so it will need time. I will try the ref10 in about an hour with the h30 preamp. |
1 hour into it: I have the Belcanto edging out the ref10 and Hegel. I will try to change out xlr cables and see if it’s my silver xlr cables that are warming up the sound too much. You see what I have been saying all along? Now I gotta start chasing xlr, power cords etc to try to catch up to the black system. Ugh. |
@whitecamaross Maybe you want to wait a week or so before you consider changing out any cables. You have a new P10, and Bel Canto Black breaking in. Meanwhile your old components were unplugged and boxed for the move. Just about every component in your system is going to be settling in and changing sound over the next week or 2. Happy listening! 👍 |
Chazzy007, I agree with your assessment, too many variables simultaneously at play here. 1 Boxed up components inactive for awhile 2 New products being used that aren’t broken in. 3 Changing cables at a very early stage in the evaluation process. 4 Patience and time is needed to get this right. 5 Idealy one variable introduced at a time. Otherwise things can become confusing and misleading. Nonetheless an interesting thread to read. I can appreciate the effort in this type of endeavor. Charles |
You guys are right. I won’t change a thing for a week or so. The black system will be left on too. I won’t be changing anything and let things just settle. I’ll simply assess things on a daily basis. That said, I went to bed at 330am and felt the black system versus ref10/Hegel h30 was very close to pick a winner at this early stage. Some songs go better with the black system and others with the ref10. I was listening at low volumes as well in order to not wake anyone up. I plan to listen at louder volumes today and compare again. |
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Today I listened to about one hour of music. I brought out the pass labs as well and let it idle for about 90 min. I don’t know where to begin. I thought the black system really kept a cleaner image of things. Things felt clean sounding with zero noise. Bass was tight and controlled. Next I played the ref10 with pass. I thought it had amazing detail and sounded so relaxed yet detailed. Both presented about the same soundstage size width and depth. That said, I felt like the ref10 had me sitting down and didn’t once make me want to turn things down. Things just flowed with great detail and authority. This doesn’t mean the black system made me want to turn things down. It just sounded a little more in your face and presented itself dead center. Great authority and dynamics. Again, both have amazing presentations but very different. That said, the black system (the dac/preamp) is not broken in at all. I don’t know what will happen in a few weeks. I plan on leaving the black system on and so I figure in about a week it should have a lot of hours so I can listen to it again. |
@whitecamaross I was just going to ask the basic differences between the Bel Canto and Ref 10 and read your last post. The Ref 10 along with the Black and Luxman seem to be have been the top of the food chain in your now several year journey. I’d be interested to hear more of your thoughts on what makes these pre’s different from each other. Each of their strengths as well as weaknesses vs each other and how they compare broadly. Not necessarily which is better, but more how they compare. Happy Easter! 🙌 |
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Well, i have mixed feelings right now. One hour i feel like i should keep the belcanto for these reasons: 1. sounds good, crystal clear 2. easiness of use. no drama, plug and play, no need for big amps or ventilation etc. 3. no cost of ownership of any kind 4. It seems to be upgrade-able5. big soundstage6. good bass control Another hour i feel like i want to keep the ref10/hegel or pass combo for these reasons: 1. sounds musical which makes me enjoy the music a hell of alot. 2. engaging at any volume level 3. good bass control 4. Good price. i probably can not lose money if i keep it for a year or so 5. huge soundstage6. zero fatigue after hours of listening Bad points of belcanto: 1. if i listen for too long, my hearing can get "tired" and maybe this is due to it needing to be broken in? 2. class d changes rapidly so how long before a new class d set up shows up for half the money and kills this set up and i have to scramble to get rid of it at a substantial loss? 3. Is wilson/belcanto too forward sounding when played together? bad points of ref10/hegel/pass: 1. tubes... 800 dollars for the set i think? 2. having to mix and match cabling and amps in order to improve. 3. heat from the unit and heat from the amps 4. the space needed for the unit and the amps being used plus the source here is how much both set ups are: black system 55k retailref10/pass/lumin s1 54k retail Again, these are my findings so far with the black system still breaking in. i don’t know if the system will indeed "smooth out" or not sound too forward. This is not harsh sounding, but i don’t know if it will settle and sound as detailed yet relaxed as the ref10 is. |
Thank you for your thoughts. Excellent points all around. Ref 10 break in is probably in the 600+ hour range. Break in for class d in general and Bel Canto specifically could be twice that of the ARC. My feeling is that class d for home theater should be great but give me something like the ARC/Pass combo for music. |
NCore-based amplifiers like Bel Canto take a very long time to break-in.... A simple NCore implementation like the Merrill Veritas monos took a little longer than 1K hours.... A complex NCore-based amp like the Rowland M925 monos took about 1.5K hours.... I believe that Bel Canto Black belongs to the latter category. Attempting to reach conclusion on an essentially factory-fresh NCore amp after just a few days of listning is not a particularly useful exercise. G. |
I own the Bel Canto Black EX DAC, which shares input
technology with the new ASC2. If you are chasing sound quality, in my experience even a good asynchronous USB
input will sound inferior to an Ethernet input as Ethernet is not limited by audio drivers. Ethernet is embedded deep in the system level and avoids the
sonic vagaries of the USB interface. I would recommend using the Ethernet input
to hear the system at its best and recommend a high-quality ethernet cable for the last meter. Try Tidal's MQA files. |
@whitecamaross didn't you just move to a new place a couple of days ago? besides the new amp not been broken in yet, I'd suggest that your mind is Jumpy... Getting used to the new place, new listening room, new amp, new everything and perhaps being a bit tired too... the remedy is to chill out and not be analytical over the next week or two, just enjoy your system(s) & the music. Music needs those quietest moments (mentally) to shine through... BTW, whatever happened to the 860a? |
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Hi, i own the black system, latest version 2. I find the Wilson audios very dynamic and forward. Depending on the type of music you listen to, they can be really good or a little too much if you play them loud. That said, please remember I am also using systems that are not fully there yet. I love a lot of what Wilson is doing in my room. The platinums are smooth and never fatiguing but if you’re a person who only listens to music for 30 min then the Wilson may be better for you. If you listen to music for hours then the platinum might be better. Again I’m still doing preliminary info at this time. |
The controversy that continues concerning Wilson perplexes me. Maybe it’s older generations that were the issue. I’ve owned a LOT of high end speakers over my 61 years. The last pair was Salon 2’s which I enjoyed very much except for a small vocal edge that was probably room related. That said I purchased a pair of Wilson Yvette’s and am absolutely mesmerized with their musicality. Forward? Beats me as I’ve never felt a need to pick them apart. Geez they are satisfying. I’m not a big Wilson fan other than I love my pair. FWIW |
4425, The problem is sometimes "we" don't respect the fact that there are different preferences and what's forward and/or bright to some, is just right to others. I've owned Wilson speakers and submit they are the most dynamic speakers that I've ever owned. Unfortunately, even the current Wilson's are fatiguing to me. I don't know why, but I prefer a speaker that is closer to "what I think is neutral" or on the slightly dark side of neutral. |
You are correct. I agree with what you said. Also, I keep saying it over and over again: to properly assess anything you need to sit down for hours listening and listening and see how your hearing is doing. You can’t reallu do this by playing 3 songs. It doesn’t work that way. The monitor audios are darker sounding and do have great detail but they aren’t as detailed when you first sit down. That said, as you keep listening you’ll realize that all the detail has always been there but it is not as pronounced or in your face. I like a lot of what Wilson does ans they have a huge amount of depth in their sound. I don’t think I’ve heard a speaker that sounds as deep in terms of soundstage, not bass. |