The JL subs have way more punch, and many prefer them for HT. The Fathom is insane. For 2 channel, I like the RELs better because they blend so well with full range speakers, and are super fast. Some of us crossover the RELs at 100-120hz. I haven't heard the REL no.25, but I read a glowing review of them from an English website (Home Cinema Choice). Of course, you would need 2 of them. And they are beasts in size. The review explains why I like the REL brand better. https://2y2ro62wfbas3svllg2i0s1t-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HCC_271_Rel_sub_... |
@whitecamaross what have you listened to under 5000$ that sounded closest in bass mid highs and overall musical to your favourite top amp for jazz blues vocal classical 50s rock and early country?
At this moment which amps are your all time fav?
Did you also audition and review preamps, dacs, cd players and turntables? What are your favourites and why
Have you ever reviewed ML 1 monoblocs and Classe Dr3 Vhc?
Have you ever auditioned the top vintage and modern Tube Amps?
Is the Pass 280.5 still your overall fav amp regardless of speakers used? |
Shootout begins shortly. I will listen to several cuts of music and each dac will be used as a preamp. Volume will be between 85db and 88 dB.
Set up #1
DCS Vivaldi DAC 2.0 ($36k)
Wireworld Platinum 7 USB
Nordost Odin 1 powercord
WIreworld platinum 8 xlr
Rowland 925s (stock powercords)
Nordost Odín 1 speaker cables
6V setting on volume output
Set up #2
Lampizator Pacific ($32k)
KR 242 tubes
Wireworld Platinum 7 USB
Wireworld 7 powercord
WIreworld platinum 8 xlr
Rowland 925s (stock powercords)
Nordost Odín 1 speaker cables
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Greyhound:
i already had my in-ceiling speakers purchased since last year (Martin Logan helos). I might round out the rest with Martin Logan in walls.
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WCSS.
I know that I have recommended these in the past as Stereo speakers, but for your Home Theater , The Tekton Double Impact or Encore are almost impossible to beat when it comes to price / performance. They all are very easy to drive ....96db - 98db efficient. at 4ohms. They also sound Excellent.
There is a special in wall package for the Double Impacts
Or the non-in wall Double Impact have matching center and surrounds available
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I am using KR242 tubes... it’s the newest tubes that were just recently manufactured for lampizator this year. |
On the Lampi site, there is a review article of Feb 8, 2019 about tubes in the Pacific, also posted here by grey9hound. The stock tube is the KR 300B which the reviewer found to have the fastest, most neutral sound. I remember that WC was last using other tubes in the Pacific, which the reviewer said were more romantic in sound. Since he got the latest balanced version of the Lampi, I don't know what tubes are being used there.
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Yes. I have RCA 211's in my Audio Note Jinro. They aint cheap...but neither are the best 300B's at over $3000 a tube. You can get the just released recreation of the famous WE 300B (made by Audio Note) for about $1000 a tube. |
Do you have any 211 or 2A3 tubes ? |
The 300B is considered the "romantic" tube in the SET world VS the 2A3 or 211 tubes. All 3 of these are used extensively in almost all Audio Note Amps. |
Rel builds good musical subs but the s5 were no jl audio fathoms... the sledge hammer attack wasn’t there with those but maybe if I went up the ladder then things would be different. For now, I still
prefer jl audio... Maybe the no25 sub would
be what I need ? |
WC,
Eliminating the Virgo will more clearly reveal the differences between the DCS and Lampi. Also, if something sounds more "beautiful" that is usually associated with loss of information/clarity. As I recall, several reviewers and maybe you found the 300B tube to be more revealing and neutral than other tubes which are more romantic and beautiful. Does the DCS reveal more info than the Lampi with 300B tubes? Same question for the 925 vs Centaur.
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WCSS,
I just noticed that you had 2 REL S5s for sale on the Audiogon back in May 2017. Did you like them? Here I am pushing you to buy these things for about a year. Why didn't you let me know you already had them in the mix?
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Thanks for the feedback folkfreak. I have this dac only for a few days. I need to return it to the owner who also wants to borrow my lampizator.
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Riaa,
ill need to perhaps roll tubes on the lampizator. I might borrow some 300b from a friend. |
Actually the dCS also allows for “a change to the flavor of the sound” by changing the filters and/or the Ring DAC mapping algorithm. Please do experiment with these before drawing a definitive conclusion. Also an upgraded power cord, and ideally better footers, will also pay major dividends. My system description contains a pretty extensive discussion of how to tune a dCS system.
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Me thinks you should have Tube Rolled some Tung Sol Black Plate 6550's from the late 1950's/Early 60's into the REF 10 before you ditched it. Also some 6H30P-DR's in place of the stock 6H30P. Huge improvements by all accounts. Good luck with your current shootout. |
Guys,
i spent about 30 min yesterday trying to compare both dacs through the Virgo 3 preamp and this is a brief update:
- HARD AS HELL to pick apart components at this price point
- the lampizator has more volume output than the dcs even if I set the dcs at 6v of output.
- the lampizator is more versatile since it allows for network streaming, analog inputs (mine has optional analog inputs)
- the lampizator allows to change the flavor of the sound by rolling tubes
- the lampizator is far more beautiful
- the dcs can improve its sound by adding the crazy expensive components that make up the system.
- the lampizator is faster at switching to the next song. Virtually no delays between songs.
tonight I will try to do some listening to see how each sounds as a preamp. That might be a different dog fight but for now I will probably give the edge to the lampizator for overall value/performance. |
WC,
Exciting news about the DCS Vivaldi. Using the 925 at 32 dB gain should enable you to be satisfied with volume by eliminating the Virgo preamp and running the dac with its volume control into the 925. Doing the same with the Lampi and its volume control enables elimination of the Virgo. Eliminating the Virgo will likely give more transparency/clarity for both the Vivaldi and Lampi, so then the battle will be the DCS vs Lampi in the most revealing way.
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WC,
congrats on the DCS. Just FYI, if you are running this with usb input, the cable makes a significant impact. I have heard repeated examples of this with all levels of Nordost. Trust me, of their offering, Valhalla 2 USB is sensational. Talk to Ron17 on this. I am currently running Tyr2 usb.
Also, if you are running external word clock even pc matters as well as ic. |
Update:
the DCS VIVALDI 2.0 DAC is in the house!!
lampizator pacific va DCS Vivaldi 2.0 showdown ! |
Last I knew, Guido runs his Aeris DAC as his preamp. I run JR Corus with the PSU as my preamp to the M925s. It is a synergistic combo IMO. This I know with certainty, the PSU makes a large difference with the Corus and with JR's Aeris DAC. |
@guidocorona
Component synergy is VERY important. The M925s may prefer a Rowland preamp as well. Remind us what you are using Guido? And maybe what other preamps you've tried with the M925s. |
WC,
Thanks to Guido's info, the ultimate might be an all Rowland system--dac, preamp, power amp with the enhancement of the PSU for the first two items.
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WC, before I go to the pool on this glorious, Florida sunshiny day, I wanted to ask a question. You mentioned the equipment, stating the Lampi and the pre are both in the system, but you then mention you are enjoying the Lampi feeding the amps. Which is it, please, for my clarity ? And, if you are enjoying the Lampi as a pre, into the 925s, why are you, in such a short amount of time, thinking of the Rowland pre ? Since I have been reading this thread of yours, you seem not to have patience in leaving things alone, and ime, not giving anything long enough time to break in. Not trying to be the devils advocate here, and as always, I enjoy reading your thread. Will return later. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber6 is referring to the Rowland Power Storage Unit (PSU). This is an external power supply housed in a full chassis. It is based on ultracapacitors capable of powering simultaneously the Rowland Corus linestage, the Aeris DAC, and the new Rowland Conductor phono stage.... It takes these units totally off the grid and delivers a continuous stream of totally clean DC to them.... As it uses ultracaps instead of batteries for storage, it does not cause the depression of transients that sometimes battery-based power supplies suffer from. I am using PSU on my Rowland Aeris DAC, and have found PSU to be a transformational component, not only for dynamics, but also for resolution, staging, imaging, and overall realism of the presentation. ASteward can comment on PSU use on Corus. G.
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Oops, sorry for my mistake. The Corus is a line stage. The same reasoning applies to my remarks above, although the Corus might not be much better than the Virgo, if at all. But Guido raves about his Rowland dac with a big difference from the upgraded power supply, so I was referring to that above.
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WC,
Ricred1 raised an interesting question about the bass on the 925. If it has less quantity than expected, is it because of some tube-like qualities of being rolled off like ARC 160, or accurate SS tightness with less oomph, or just lack of break in as Guido and astewart8944 mentioned? Time will tell.
Don't forget to A/B the 535 with 925 because it seems that 925 may be the absolute winner. It would be interesting to see if the 535 has some better points than the 925, or whether the 925 is better for all sonic qualities. How much better for the huge difference in price? If the Rowland Corus with the power supply is much better than the Lampi, perhaps the difference in price between the 925 pair and a single 535 makes putting the savings into the Corus dac worth it. Put another way, a single 535 + Virgo (I think the Corus requires a preamp) + Corus dac may produce better sound than 925 + Lampi. A bridged 535 pair + Virgo + Corus might be awesome. Of course, if you have the money, the ultimate might be 925 + Virgo + Corus. The quality of the source is often more important than anything else except the speaker, although Linn made its reputation by claiming its turntable was more important than even the speaker.
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whitecamaross I enjoyed the AQ Dragon PC review. Keep auditioning / reporting cabling and power cords.
Happy Listening! |
Thanks guys.
Right now this is how everything is:
lampizator pacific
wireworld platinum 7 and platinum 8 xlr
odin 1 speaker cables
cardas spade to banana adapters
Audioquest dragon hc pc on the amps
odin 1 pc on the dac
constellation Virgo 3 preamp
Shunyata alpha nr on the preamp
I am contemplating the Rowland corus with the optional power supply but I’m starting to like using a dac as a preamp. I still
have to try the lampizator as a preamp. We will see what comes out of that experiment.
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+1 Guido. Give the M925s time and healthy bass should arrive. It is not a weak suit for the M925s IME. I use Cardas Clear Beyond XL PCs with mine--the M925s also had bass aplenty with Cardas Clear Beyond PCs. I'm not suggesting the AQ PCs are the issue only letting you know the PCs driving my experience. As Guido points out M925s take a large amount of time to settle in. Patience pays a big dividend with these amps. |
WC,
My guess is that as an amp with great clarity in midrange and HF, the 925 has accurate tight bass as well, although less oomph. To get a better memory of the Block, I suggest not yet changing the jumper on the Neo to get more bass. Listen to more music to confirm your early impressions. Of course, later you can do the jumper change and A/B the Centaur with the 925 that way. You will probably come to similar conclusions about the sonic differences between the Centaur and 925. If you have confirmed that the AQ dragon HC is the most accurate of your power cords, that will help make the differences between the 2 amps more evident. I predict the 925 is the winner for clarity/information retrieval/ neutrality at all freq, just as you found years ago in other systems.
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To be more specific, M925 has a toggle switch in the back to change gain from 26dB to 32dB.
BTW, I expect more bass to come in as the amp reblooms.
G.
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I can see this ricred... I am going to try different pcs and a bunch of other tricks such as changing the jumper position on the Neoliths to add more bass.
As far as the gain I’m using, it’s 32db and I love it. I can hear tremendous amounts of information that wasn’t so apparent before.
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WC,
Some people say that Rowland amps have a "tube" sound, which includes being a little soft on the bass. I think your experience is a stark reminder that every component has tradeoffs. That all of us must pick our "poison" based on our preferences and how much we are willing to spend.
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Can you adjust the gain? Does that add or take away from the sound Good or bad? |
Rowland 925s:
24 hours playtime and they are beginning to sound incredible. Here are a few things that stand out right now:
- CLARITY
- IMAGING CHAMP
- 3D that pops out of the speaker
- Bass isn’t on par with block audio or constellation centaur 2 (not now anyhow)
stay tuned... tonight will bring more thoughts. So far, this is a especial amp with panels. I knew I was on to something. |
WC, In the latest Absolute Sound edition, Robert Harley writes about his new custom listening room. This caught my attention as I prepare to have a custom home built with a key effort also being a listening room. So I thought this article was relevant to your project in progress as well. There is much detail about the materials, wall construction, etc., and his ability to play as loud as he wants at all times of the day and night, and not to disturb his family/neighbors. Hopefully there will be some tips/ideas for you to discuss with the contractor before things get started. |
WC,
For the 1st time, I looked at all your pictures. I really like your present room with the shag carpet balancing out the live tiles on the floor. You might have tried thinner carpets. The leather chairs are nice, better than plush upholstery which softens the sound too much. I am not an acoustics expert, but simple can be nice the way you have it.
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Yep. I remember now. Well they are back and playing music as we speak. Let’s see how much they transform in the next few days. The mids are smeared right now and not dead center as with the constellation. I expect for them to open up and sound more focused over the next few days. |
You have posted, another picture of the 925s, when you had the Wilsons, just as a reminder. |
Jeff Rowland 925s pics have now been posted in my virtual system !
i plan to let them play music for at least 24 hrs before I do any sort of serious listening.
They’ve been traveling for one week so I know what I hear right now isn’t what they are capable of. Will update later ! |
Fro those who bothered with Viber - just ignore his posts. By criticizing Viber constantly - you guys also flooding this forum and make it worse. Obviously Viber is in his own world, ,let it be... |
Jeff Rowland 925s & Constellation Centaur 2 both have enough hours on them. If anything, the Lampizator has the least amount of hours out of my components right now.
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WC,
Most informative will be A/B of the Rowland 925 with Centaur, and 925 with the 535 to see what the big price difference between the 925 gives you, or perhaps the opposite in some ways. How does the winner compare to your memories of the Block? Are all these amps well broken in? |
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Well said dthst. Thanks for following this thread. I appreciate you posting here as well.
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WC, I have to say that your journey is extremely interesting and fun to follow. The biggest thing I see is when people get caught up in your quest and alot have you can see that with the ones tailing behind your every post which is cool but to some degree I think they are feeling like this is their money too and want you to spend wisely so you don’t go bankrupt while others incourage you to buy the biggest and baddest like you could never run out of funds.
This is all ment to be fun and enjoyable to follow your steps to audio bliss but when there becomes all this bickering like going on a family vacation in the van and the four kids in the back act up. The much needed fun vacation with the family becomes a thorn in the a$$.
I am just a hands on guy working in an automotive repair shop that would love to be able to do 1/2 of what you and most posting here have and can do with their systems and I enjoy seeing what you can do even though I know I can’t. I am into HT and spent a weekend in Philly to listen to and get the best speakers I could. My buddy took me to Overture in Deleware and every Hi-End store from there to Philly. I came home with Triad in room Golds due to Overtures HT room with Triad Plat’s that just slacked jawed me, litterly breath taking. I couldn’t afford the Plat’s and just barely afforded the Inroom Golds but enjoy seeing what those of better means can put together.
I would guess most posting here have a higher level education and have been able to acquire carrers that allow them these luxuries and that all good you did the work and made the right choices to get you there. The enjoyment of this journey ends (for me anyhow) when the bickering starts like the kids in the back of the van.
WC is the parent driving this van and the kids are acting up. WC has kindly asked all of you to please stay on target and not derail this vacation. If WC was like my dad when I was younger he would pull the van over after 2-3 warnings and pull you out to the side of the road to give a spanking infront of the other passing cars (been there, had that). I really think that WC has shown some very good restraint and I feel bad for him that this trip has (at some level I’m sure) been ruined to a degree because of this bickering and little childish digs from posters that I’m sure are old enough and educated enough to know better. Leave the bickering, digs and rehashing of dumb crap to the kids.
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Let’s switch gears.
Tomorrow, the Jeff Rowland 925s arrive here. I will have a chance to do a good shootout this Memorial Day weekend which will be the last weekend in which I’ll be able to do any critical listening because construction of the new room is supposed to begin next week through the end of June and I will have to bring some of the audio gear I have in the garage into
the living room which will crowd things in here until I’m able to put all the stuff In the dedicated room being built. This means that the month of June will be pretty slow for me with updates other than perhaps how the room is coming along.
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