My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Ok guys, both amps and preamps were left on overnight. Everything is ready to go and I just drank a Red Bull so I can be focused. First up, the full constellation set up for 30 min straight.
WC, Although you know I haven't heard the Constellations, I am just going by your own statements that Rowland reveals more detail but has smaller size of images than Constellation. Tubes have the biggest images, but are less accurate and detailed, according to both of our experiences. The Connie has some degree of this aspect of tubes. I don't want to leave the impression that I think Connies are bad, just say that compared to the Rowland they are less true to life. Also, I don't know exactly what you mean by holography, but the common usage of this word is that its spatiality is artificial like 2D cutouts pasted at various locations, like the artificial 3D in movies. The movie 3D is perhaps better than regular movies, but it isn't quite real. But what truly is lifelike is what you said about the Rowland, having "incredible amount of air between instruments...." In real life, images are separated and specific, not artificially inflated, which actually DECREASES the space and separation between sound sources. To make an analogy, think of a 20 foot bench. 8 slender people will be able to sit with plenty of space between each of them, but 8 fat people will sit with less space between each of them.
Also, what you just said about the Rowland having a more upfront sound than the Connie, is further illustration that it is more detailed, and that it has more HF information than Connie. The remarkable thing is that the Rowland is still liquid, smooth and sweet, combined with better clarity than Connie. If the HF are not grossly "in your face" but are more naturally detailed, that is a wonderful endorsement of the Rowland as the way to go. Just keep the volume sensibly loud to soft, so you can enjoy more details and beauty of the music through the Rowland.
Agreed. Right now, as I listen to the constellation, I feel as if I’m seated a few rows back and with the Rowland I’m a few rows closer. The catch here is that with the constellation I might be able to listen to music for longer periods of time than with the Rowland. Of course, this depends on the volume levels as well. I also want to share one interesting thing with some of you: I feel, based on my own experience, that power hungry speakers such as mine really seem to open up more when using a preamp than using a dac as a preamp. I feel that the demands this type of speaker puts on the amps really transfer all the way to the preamp. Lost of the dacs out there are amazing of course and will do the job just fine but with insane loads like mine, a preamp is almost a must have. A preamp simply has more juice, more “push” than most dacs out there. If you all have hard to drive speakers, remember what I just said.
WC, For years I made "silly" comments about what was "best". After years of experience listening to high-end equipment I started using "preference" as a way to differentiate between components. I'm a firm believer that "we" are still trying to find different pieces of a puzzle that fit best to provide the sound our ears prefer. Inserting the Esoteric K1 DAC had a different impact on the Rowland preamp vs the Constellation preamp... Why? Who knows? The more I read your thread, the more I realize at this level it comes down to preference and the only true way to know what one's ears will prefer is through actual listening. There isn't a right or wrong, no absolutes, and no perfect component.
Ok guys, the Centaur 2s are front and center now. They are dead cold after being unplugged for about 10 days so we will see what happens. Will the centaur 2s Godzilla-like bass control and devastating soundstage make me change my opinion or Or will the Rowland's articulation and resolution continue to trap me and make me forget about the huge canvas of sound from the constellation set up ?
There’s nothing Inflated about constellation. It has tremendous soundstage, depth and height. It has perhaps the fullest sound to come out of my neoltihs while still retaining holographic imaging. I can say it’s the best imaging I’ve ever heard here. I’ve said it many times here, at this level it’s all about the flavor you like and the music you listen to. To say one is artificial or bloated, etc isn’t really an accurate statement.
WC, It could be that the Rowland preamp is still breaking in, especially with the PSU needing time to break in, as Guido says. Also, the Esoteric is more revealing than the Lampi, which helps to better differentiate all the electronics. The Rowland's "incredible amount of air between instruments, lotsofclarity and dynamics" is the ideal combination of everything desirable, and is more true to life than big inflated images with artificial holography of Constellation or similar setups. No rush to make decisions before you try the Merrills. Looking forward to the DCS Vivaldi vs Esoteric K1--WOW!
I’ve been listening to the Rowland set up and after adding the esoteric k1 dac, the Rowland improved far more than the constellation preamp did. Yes, both did improve but I feel as if the Rowland preamp went a step further. There’s an incredible about of air between instruments, lots of clarity and dynamics. If I had to make a choice right now, I’d sell my constellation set up and keep the Rowland. That said, that is a bit premature since I still need to unleash the centaur 2s and let them do what they do best PLUS I need to get my nordost Odin 1 speaker cables next week and begin to see how things change. Still lots to do before I make my decision.
Esoteric k1 is back and it is insane with my Neoliths. It added a huge soundstage and a monstrous deep bottom end. Stay tuned, I will be doing a full blown analysis of the dcs Vivaldi vs esoteric k1. You won’t want to miss this...
WC's findings with the Nordost Odin1 feeding PSU are quite consistent with the further enhancements I am experiencing by powering my own Rowland Aeris+PSU DAC with the Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cord.... Larger holographic stage, further clarification of images, subtle enhancement of resolution... All together, I find Cardas wires very synergistic with Rowland components... I use Clear Beyond XL PCs also on my amps... Rowland M535 and M925s, as well as on the Esoteric X-01 transport.
WC, "More bass has been added", but is it also tighter and more accurate? Same question for 925 vs Centaur. My guess is that the Odin does both, so is a win-win, but the Centaur gives more quantity than the 925, but maybe less quality of tightness and accuracy. Only you can answer that for sure.
Just connected the nordost Odin 1 into the Rowland preamp and now this is a dog fight. The preamp opened up and now it has EVEN MORE detail. Those of you who don’t believe in powercords have no idea what you’re missing. More bass has been added, soundstage is slightly larger and there’s more depth happening now. This BY FAR an extremely difficult task. That said, the big constellation Monos are still off to the side waiting to enter the fight. I’m ITCHING to try them with the Rowland preamp
Mrdecibel, Perhaps my experience is not as vast as yours, but I'll give a few examples. Comparing the Bryston 3B SST to my Bryston 2.5B SST2 for moderate volume music within the comfortable range of the 2.5, the 3 had much more bass emphasis but much less detail in midrange/HF. It was sickeningly dark and veiled by comparison. The Bryston 4B SST2 was much better than the 3B SST, due to the updated SST2 design and NOT the increased power. Unfortunately, I had the same findings that although the 4B had more fullness and bass, it was deficient in detail/clarity in midrange/HF compared to the 2.5B SST2.
Although analogies are often faulty, a few police officer patients of mine have told me that fat men are slow in their fighting ability, and they lose the battle due to fatigue. Many people have found low power amps to have more purity/detail than higher power amps. This is one reason they choose efficient horn speakers with their low powered (tube) amps, although I would choose an accurate low powered SS amp with horns.
WC, Your wife continues to show that she has good ears. BTW, you can get the Audio CD from Digital Recordings to test hearing thresholds in 1 dB increments from 0 to 80 dB at 32 freq between 20 and 20 kHz. You need a good set of headphones and a headphone jack with volume control for this test. I can almost guarantee that her ears will measure better than yours. Females have better hearing than males, and she hasn't been exposed to as much very loud sound as you which causes hearing damage. Since you are about half my age, your hearing likely tests better than mine.
Perhaps the Merrill Christine + 116 will give the best of everything, but my experience with many amps is that more detailed amps are associated with less quantity of bass, although more accurate, tighter bass. So far, you have found that the Connie has more quantity of bass than Rowland, but which amp delivers more accurate, tighter bass? Regarding spatiality/holography, tubes are king, but we know that tubes are less detailed/accurate. Relative to the Rowland, Connie is tube-like in midrange/HF. At present, you seem to value spatiality and tube-like quality above detail/clarity. However, you may be transitioning to the detail camp, since you were not happy with the Lampi/Connie system which sounded a little syrupy. This caused you to move on from Lampi to Esoteric. As you know, I had an early romance affair with tubes and spatiality which only lasted a year. Since the Rowland system is sweet and smooth with clarity/detail, you would have just about everything in music that is important, and you could live happily with that for a very long time. Let's see how the Merrill rates.
I just switched preamps and had the wife listen to both preamps through the 925s. She chose the Virgo. She said it sounded bigger and more open. I certainly agree so far but the detail seems to be more apparent through the Rowland preamp.
So, the Gryphon Diablo 300 was the 2nd most muscular of all the amps wc had ( through the Neos ) ? I would like to hear that from WC, as I do not think that is the case. WC mentioned he almost purchased Gryphon separates, so I am assuming he heard a Gryphon amp / pre set up ( Mephisto and Pandora ). Viber, I need to disagree, that an amp that has more muscularity in the bass, would be " associated with some loss of upper midrange and HF clarity ". That has not been my experience, with many " brute force " amps I have owned, and have listened to. Having greater control, extension and speed, of woofers ( muscularity of bass ), is an " addition to ", the mids and highs, not instead of. Can you give me an example of an amp that does this ? I am not talking about amps that do not have muscularity, as there are many. YMMV. Enjoy ! MrD.
These 2 systems couldn’t be more different. They are smooth and detailed but they go about their business in different ways. I will expand on this in the next coming days or weeks. Whichever system I keep will be the one that I felt was the one that better fit my current needs and not because the other one was no good. Both systems are excellent
No matter what electronics you are talking about, "muscular bass" is usually associated with some loss of upper midrange and HF clarity. Despite flat freq response from 20-20,000 Hz, it is a difference of perceived emphasis, with tonal balance of muscular amps leaning towards bass, and less muscular amps leaning towards HF, yielding more clarity, detail. So the Rowland preamp and amp have the same characteristics, singly or in combination. Same goes for Constellation. This difference is not likely to change with the Esoteric K1 or cables, although both the Rowland and Connie will probably sound tighter and more revealing in the entire freq range than they did with the Lampi or Oppo.
Listening at louder volumes right now and here’s what I’m hearing WITHOUT NORDOST speaker cables:
-Incredible level of detail. The nuances are laid out for you to listen and indulge. - clarity in spades - bass is still not as “muscular” as the gryphons and constellation - soundstage height is not as tall - excellent depth and imaging - relaxed, smooth, silky with zero harshness. It could lead to countless hours of listening sessions.
If you value detail and clarity, this is your system. If you value muscularity, HUGE soundstage from top to bottom, and musicality, constellation has it. That said, this might change over the next few weeks once I connect the esoteric k1, add a nordost Odin 1 on the preamp, etc. These are preliminary findings so DO NOT take them as gospel yet. There’s still a lot more to do here.
Hey WC, the PSU's contribution to three-dimensional stage, imaging, and resolution will come in gradually over the next 100 hours or so of the critter gobbling up AC and pumping DC through its ultracapacitors for Corus's benefit.... Corus itself may take quite a bit longer to give its best, depending on how broken in it is already.... Extrapolating from my own adventure with Rowland Aeris DAC when I started to feed it with PSU, the best has still to come!
Saluti, G.
PS. Ah yes, last night I received the full PSU manual from the Rowland factory... Have not opened the document yet, but it is probably much more thorough than the Quick Start guide... I'll send it to you in a few minutes.
WC, The source and acoustics are the most critical components, possibly as important as the speakers. Before you dismantle the Neos in your present room, please do the testing of all preamps/amps there, since you know the acoustics well. The new room will have completely different acoustics. Until you get to know the new acoustics, it will be harder to do the A/B tests. The Esoteric promises to be the most revealing source, so it will be important to use it in all the testing in your present room. You can still enjoy your HT in the new room, and move the Neos later, after you have done the testing. And then you can repeat some of the A/B testing in the new room, to see if you arrive at the same conclusions as in your present room. Even though the Merrill 116 won't arrive and break in for another month or so, it will be worth the wait until you can hear the 116 in your present room.
Really happy for you that you will have this new room. Awesome. I imagine the baseline sound will be quite different due to room, distances, materials etc etc. and will take some time. Did the Odin’s not quite have enough hours on them?
No "holographic" feeling as heard through Constellation separates
Overall, this is an incredible preamp. I hear a ton of things that i did not hear before. I would not be shocked if this preamp with the Constellation Centaur 2s sounds killer. That said, my Nordost Odin 1 speaker cables are leaving tomorrow to be put on the machine and add more hours on them. I figure right now is the best time to do this since i am not doing a lot of critical listening. The first shootout i will have in the new room will be Jeff Rowland vs Constellation with the Esoteric K1 Dac. Stay tuned, more to come.
thanks Guido. As far as Dacs, it is really all about which one works best with your set up. i loved the lampizator but i want to do an all solid state dac now.
@WhiteCamaross, in case you did not find manuals in the Rowland Corus and PSU cartons, I’ll be sending you their manuals via PM. Connection of PSU to rus is best done following directions in the PSU Getting Started.
I really like your home theater design choices. I have 2 of the Martin Logan Vision soundbars, and the folded motion tweeters are never fatiguing. ML in-wall solutions have been around for years, and are one of the best ones out there. The REL Predator subs are closed box, which I prefer over ported subs. They should be fast and accurate. Epson projector, the best. Looks like a winner.
It would be nice if A-gon had a search function within a thread. Lacking that, WC discussed the Gryphon Diablo 300 about 6 months ago or so. His posts could be reviewed around then, or a separate search for this item could be done. My recollection is that he found it OK, pleasant but not very detailed.
WC, I think ATI 523 or the more powerful bridged version, the 543 would be a better choice than the ML 533H. From your long ago comments about ML 532H, and all my experience with past ML electronics, they are euphonic and probably not as neutral and accurate as ATI. Even for the less critical applications of HT compared to stereo, it is important to have accuracy so when visual effects are accompanied by exciting transients, you don’t want to be bored with euphonic ML type sound. Clarity is important for dialogue. Your HT speakers probably have moderate impedance, so the 543 would be comfortable offering more power than the 523. For low impedance speakers, the 543 is not as comfortable as the 523, according to my conversation with an ATI tech a few years ago.
If you are already committed to the ML 533H, please do an A/B with the ATI 528 using 2 channels of each, before you dismantle the Neo system in your present room. My guess is that the ATI class D amps are a best budget buy hands down, and are not embarrassed by any amp regardless of price. Let’s see what you find, thanks.
Of course, either the ATI 523 or 543 would save you plenty of money.
@whitecamaross That should be a damn fine Home Theater setup. The ONly thing I would change or consider changing if it were me , is the subs . Those REL 1508 are 6 db down at 21 HZ. That means that they will play flat to 27 HZ and by the time you get to 21 HZ ,the output is 6 db less than what it is at 27 HZ. Regardless, it will still be damn good IMO . Enjoy
Nice choice on HT equipment your gonna be impressed. Have you picked a screen manuf? If not Screen Innovations Black Diamond's are really nice and if there are windows allowing light in the room light washout is not an issue like some others, the picture remains clear and bright, worth a look IMO.
The room is about halfway through. the audio for movies has been purchased and will hit my door next week. It consists of the following:
Marantz 8805 martin logan axis inwalls for FR, C, FL, SR, SL (behind a perforated screen) martin Logan helos for in ceiling Atmos klipsch thx 6502 in walls for SBL, SBR Four REL 1508 Predator subwoofers Epson 6050 projector 135 inch acoustically transparent screen wireworld xlr throughout
after careful analysis, I decided to go with a mark Levinson 533h 3 channel amp to drive my 3 front inwalls and the ATI 528 8 channel class D amp for the surrounds and Atmos speakers. These 2 amps keep things simple without the need to use too many amps. As far as audio rack, I have ordered a SOLID TECH RACK 7 in silver. The room still needs the walls sanded, painted, ac unit needs to be installed, the floor riser needs to be built and lighting needs to be done as well as carpeting, Comcast needs to come out and wire the room for internet and I need to buy another row of recliners towards the end too. Once all that has bee done then I’ll begin to move all the equipment inside the room and begin the madness of installing all the electronics, protector, the screen, assemble the audio rack, etc etc. I also had four 20a dedicated outlets installed on the front wall so that power is never an issue. I will need to figure out what kind of power surge protector I’m going to buy just to get me through the next few months. Im not going to spend big money on a power conditioner at this time to only have the home theater electronics connected to it. I’m thinking of a furman unit and calling it a day.
WC. How are things taking shape w the build out? Are you getting any listening time during this transitional phase? Take it easy and looking forward to the next phase of your journey
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
