Unfortunately i just don’t want to venture anymore with tube amps. The best tube amp I’ve heard is the gs150. After that was sold, I don’t want to try any tube amps for a while. Tube amps tend to be more difficult to sell too.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Dear Whitecamaross, I’m looking to replace my two Tag Mclaren 100x5R amps which are currently run in a 5.1 setup, bi-wired, bi- amped. The speaker system comprises of B&W HTM3s (centre), B&W 803 D3 (left & right), B&W 805s (surrounds) and a B&W DB1. My processor is Audiolab 8000AP, thinking of changing this to a Arcam 860 (any suggestions welcome). I listen to music and watch movies so the split is 50:50. I do not intend to comprise on 2 channel sound. I have read through your post here and have come to the conclusion that there is no good 5 channel amp which will satisfies on both accounts. Earlier on your thread you mentioned the Mark Levinson 533H and 532H. I have listened to the Mark Levinson 585 and was impressed by its dynamic range and quality of reproduction. I can always use one of my Tags for rear duties and concentrate on the front three channels. As you are aware the 803D3 speakers are extremely revealing of source and require some quality equipment to get the best from them. Can you recommend some amps which will fulfil on both camps? Quality of reproduction being the number one priority, my budget is £20,000. Thanks in advance. |
whitecamaross i know you are familiar with martin logans but i have to mention this quick 13a setup tip....the first thing a lot of listeners do is toe in the speaker and blast them right towards the sweet spot. i listen to mine about 8 or 9 feet apart center to center...but the KEY is that i position them straight ahead and toed in ONLY about 1 1/2 inches..that's it! these speakers are so transparent and provide so much info that pointing them directly at you overloads the senses and overwhelms the listener. this will create a more relaxing listen but still allow the speaker to shine all of its' attributes through. no disrespect to you by me mentioning this. i just have to throw this out there for you or anyone else who has these types of speakers....( of course--to each his own--- i understand that!) just my02cents if you haven't already ,give it a try. let me know. mike |
I haven't contributed in some time, but I have been trying to follow. I have heard some seriously good systems and components. I can tell you that the REF 10 pre-amp is one of the absolutely best, period. In my humble opinion, it would be a serious mistake to get rid of it. There are some out there that would compare, but not jaw dropping. The REF 10 is just outstanding. I haven't seen lately whether you have taken the dive into phono yet. Once you nail down your basic system (laugher), it would be outstanding if you could then go the phono route. Not long ago, I ventured to Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica and listened to Randall's house system. Vandersteen 7 speakers, with Audio Research REF 10 Phono stage, REF 10 pre-amp, REF 250 SE amps and stupidly expensive Basis turntable, arm and cartridge, with top audioquest cabling. I have listened for decades to wonderful systems and this was the very first time that the system completely disappeared. I've never experienced that before. I know you said that you tried another Audio Research tube amp, but if you haven't tried the REF250 SE, you've missed out. in my opinion. The other amp isn't in the same league as the REF250SE, and the combination of the REF 10 pre-amp with the REF 250SEis simply stunning. Also, I tried to go back and discover what speakers you are using. I saw mention of Martin Logan 15a. Is this correct? continue having fun. Your efforts are not only fun for some of us, but very informative. Direct A/B comparisons in the same system is absolutely the way to accurately compare and chose equipment. But, although Randall would probably let me take equipment home to listen, I haven't asked yet, only Stereo Design in San Diego actually routinely let me shlep heavy, expensive equipment back and forth from San Diego to LA to listen. Unfortunately, after over 40 years, Steve called it quits and Stereo Design B&M store is closed. enjoy |
Hey WCSS, This is one hell of a thread! It really fleshes out these components from a performance perspective that "pro" reviewers would never dream of offering up. Thank You for taking the time to do so. I am really curious for your thoughts on the Hegel H30 with the Reference 10. I too have the H30 and have run it with several preamps with the latest being a BAT VK52SE. I have since parted ways with preamp and run a Calyx Femto DAC straight to the amp connected by Transparent Reference cabling. I am running a Sonore UltraRendu with LPS1 PS with Roon as source and Proac Response 3.8's. I am considering purchasing MA PL500 II's and adding an AR preamp. Again, Thank You for helping out fellow audiophiles! |
hi guys, just wanted to update everyone that i have parted ways with my reference 10 and the pass labs 160.8s. The updated belcanto black version 2 system will be shipping this week and will be back but now fully updated with the ability to do MQA and direct streaming. NO more do i have to use jriver, etc. That said, i am buying another reference 10 in the next week or so because as i said above, the ref 10 is the best component i have owned. Will it best the belcanto black system? will using a pass 350.8 or hegel h30 with the ref 10 and the lumin s1 dac as a source be enough to best the belcanto all digital set up? Will the black system just outshine the ref10/pass350.8/hegelh30/lumin s1 set up through both the salon 2s and martin logan 13a? where do you have your money? we shall see :) |
@bubb Audition the BAT VK-6200. It’s absolutely sublime. The only other multi-channel amp that might be it’s equal is the Plinius Odeon. The BAT is detailed, very dynamic, quick, and just ever so slightly to the warm side of neutral. It has tremendous control of bass and doubles down power wise into 4 OHM’s so it’s a great amp to power difficult to drive speakers. It’s so good one of my dealers uses it (in bi-amped mode) in his 2 channel reference system at home. |
ok guys, the hegel h30 arrives today and next week the belcanto black system version 2 will be here. i also have the new ps audio p20 coming next week which will really be an awesome tool to review since it is supposed to be the best thing out there. Lastly, i wanted to keep it a secret, but i am getting close to buying a pair of wilson audio sasha 2s... i have never owned Wilson and want to try them, but i need to hear them first before i spend the money so that is what i will be doing hopefully this weekend. One acquaintance of mine loves Wilson and said things sound much more real than anything else he has owned. He says instruments sound more alive and with more separation. According to him it will take me one song and i will be selling my revel salon 2s and 13a's. Any Wilson owners following my thread that can chime in and who have owned revels or electrostatics? Again, i am very tempted to pull the trigger on a pair of Sasha 2s. |
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PS AUDIO doesnt make the best of anything. Get a Niagara or Denali which is what most of the guys with High end/sophisticated systems use. Go to the AUDIOSHARK Forums and do some research. Plenty of high end dealers including the owner of the site that will steer you in the right direction....and he's in Florida. No Snake Oil. PS AUDIO (Paul) has said repeatedly that his Transport and Dac is the best CD reproduction he has ever heard. Obviously he never leaves his own room at the Audio Show Conventions he attends to hear other Disc Spinners like Esoteric/T+A/Burmeister/Luxman/Meridian/Audio Note/EMM Labs etc You know who PS Audio equipment is made for? The same guys that keep asking you to review low end amps/pre-amps. WHY would you ever do that given your "taste"? Common sense is not in abundance around here. |
Whitecamaross, Just came back from the Montreal audio fest and checked out a few pieces of equipment. Best speakers heard there, were the Martin Logan ESL 15A (illusion of speakers disappearing, nice woofer integration to panels, no coloration and wide soundstage). Another worthwhile speaker were the Focal Scala V2 Utopia (sounds very similar to the ML 15A). Also checked out the Wilson Audio Alexia series 2 (no coloration, full-range and very dynamic/in your face). Simaudio introduced their new reference monoblocks called the '888' (888 Watts/8 Ohm or 1776 Watts/4 Ohm). These suckers are as big as a coffee table and look/sound marvelous. Shipping weight is 300 pounds! Good luck in finding your audio Nirvana. This is such a great thread! Daniel |
The same guys that keep asking you to review low end amps/pre-amps. WHY would you ever do that given your "taste"? One reason (many more come to mind) is that it would be helpful for the OP to have a reference and a control. Having a well regarded lower priced (relative) component as well as something he truly loves to serve as base line control and reference points, respectively, would add value to his evaluations and be even more informative. |
I’ve owned Wilson Audio Sophia II, Sophia III, and Sasha I’s. I submit they’re the most dynamic speakersI’ve owned. That being said, long term I find them too forward sounding. Over time I realized I prefer a more neutral to a slightly warm sound. Yes, I’ve heard the new Wilson’s and although they have a new tweeter they are still too forward for my taste. |
I agree that this thread needs lower priced gear to be compared with the big buck reference gear. Because we mostly got the point as to reference gear vs reference gear is about. But I suspect pressure from some ( dealers ?) who do not want those reference pieces compared with more affordable gear... |
Just to be sure you don t get me wrong on this. It is absolutely marvellous to have someone compared the best gear with the best gear , to know wich of what is the absolute best. Very very interesting. But some of us would like to know if we can approach that level of performance with more affordable gear. Can a Moon 740p be competitive with an ARC REF 10, or is the Coincident preamp ( has beaten a Nagra Jazz in a review !) as good as the REF 10 ?... Is the REF 40 as good as the REF 10 ( same inside design, see the pics on google) ? |
Hey Techno_Dude Thanks for proving my point about common sense. Earlier you told the OP to check out AYRE gear of which I have 2 pieces myself (VXR and KXR Twenties). I told you he SHOULDNT get AYRE gear cause the resale value is horrid. Perfect example....a 4 Month Old Pair of MXR Mono blocks just sold here on Audiogon yesterday for $15,500....List Price is more than DOUBLE that. Even if the OP got a great deal...lets say 1/3 off list price...he would still lose $7000!!! Makes no sense. If I was a DEALER like you imply why would I tell him NOT to buy the products I have??? DUH!!! I wish he would try T+A, D'agostino 400 or 250, Gryphon Diablo, ARC Tube Amps, Audio Note etc but he would probably run into the same problem to a degree. He has already told YOU (and the other viewers) that he cant risk huge losses on the gear he auditions. The Bel Canto he's trying must be loaners cause he would definitely lose 5 Figures trying to ditch a Black System...maybe even 15K+. If you want reviews of cheaper products why dont you A) Start your own thread with products that YOU purchase B) Go to websites where those types of products are more prominently featured....like the STEVE HOFFMAN FORUM where there is seldom any talk about Higher End Products...Its Minor League Heaven. You will get your fill of PS Audio, Bryston, Primaluna, Line Magnetic, Parasound etc Tons of Reviews and comparisons if you use the SEARCH option. The Op is not getting paid for what he is doing. Im sure he isn't making a freakin dime when he dumps what he has. Probably a godsend if he just breaks even. He's sharing his comparisons of stuff HE WANTS to own. He would get NOTHING except potential monetary losses for trying stuff out that other people suggest that he has no interest in having in his personal collection. I cant think of ANYBODY that would do that. To his credit he seems to ignore those suggestions (which I applaud)....his tongue is probably bleeding thou from biting on it so much. Keep up the good work OP.....Just do it for yourself as always. Stay out of the "Kiddie Pool"!! :) |
riaa, I see your point, and it is perfectly valid. I did not mean for the op to do this while loosing money acquiring bad resale value gear, but by borrowing ( or loaning maybe, if the op wants it) that more affordable gear...as he seems to have a lot of good contacts in the industry ( much more than I have). Comparing the top best with top best is fun, but will most probably lead to this thread’s death because at this level the differences get smaller and smaller...so the same song will mostly play again and so on. That applies mostly to preamps and amps. With speakers, the thread can evolve a little more but how much... |
Guys, I’ll reply back to all of you. All I can quickly say is that no the simaudio 740p does not come close to the audio Ref 10. The ref 10 is at the top of the ladder and everyone else is trying to take second place. Not even close. No preamp has ever surprised me as much. It’s a massive gap between the simaudio and the ref 10. |
Robert S.Youman from Positive Feeback writes in it's review of the ARC REF6 that as good as it is , it was still bested by the preamp analog section of his Devialet 800.................?? All these years of research by arc, all those tube design, bested by a digital all in one solution !.... Now I'm confused, just don't know what to believe anymore. |
The ref 10 is relaxed as a yatch in the ocean but huge like a cruise. The ref 10 paints the biggest wall of sound that I have heard. It doesn’t sound forward or relaxed but rather just right in terms of brightness. Zero fatigue and the most visceral bass I’ve heard. For me to tell you that I traded it in and I’m buying another one in a few weeks should be a testament to how I feel about it. The luxman and ref 6 were only bested by this ref 10. Anyhow, In regards to the brands that some of you are mentioning, I try to do my homework before I bring home anything. I don’t just buy anything because I’d be filing for bankruptcy very soon. I need to be methodical and strategical about it. That said, if you all want MY PERSONAL OPINION about your ayre pieces of any other brand then feel free to let me listen to your pieces. I will compare your amps or preamps against my own and give you my opinion. If yours indeed are better than I’ll make sure to not only tell you that but also buy them. None of my gear is leaving my home until something else can come and take it out of here. Sure, I’ll sacrifice some gear in order for me to try other stuff but those pieces that have my soul won’t be sold. I can’t go and spend 15k on a pair of ayre twenty Monos because I’ll be losing money just to unload them once I’m done. I’ve made several offers to different dealers and end users for these and they have declined so it’s just a matter of time before someone ends up selling them to me. I have no monetary compensation for this And manufacturers won’t dare to let me try their stuff in my home because they will be afraid of what I may say. I know several brands follow my thread (Belcanto has an eye on this thread) and they try to keep up with it. On another note, Today I heard the Wilson Alexia 2 with Mark Levinson 536 Monos and the ref 10 along with transparent cabling and I did not like it at all. I thought something was missing and I told the dealer that I felt that amp and speaker combo isn’t right. He proceeded to connect the 2301s and things got better but when he went to the audio research 750se Monos, things changed drastically. I also feel like many people here love to mention the room acoustics etc and I feel like you can get carried away with that as well. Today I felt that the room was way too dull and over treated with acoustic panels. I feel like the balance in the room needs to be right or else you can kill all the air and high frequency detail if you overdo your room. Lastly, my itch with the Wilson brand started a few months ago. To be honest, I haven’t been wowed by Wilson the few times I’ve heard it. The best sounding speaker I’ve auditioned was the Martin Logan 15a although I think the platinum 500s were better. I simply have to spend the money to bring the Wilson audios home and since I’m buying them right, I will try and if I don’t like then then they will be on their way out and I can quickly recuperate my money. The Alexia is a harder speaker to sell because they are bigger and more money. I find that selling speakers above the 20k used street price is a hard thing to do. It’s rough even for dealers let alone someone like me. |
@jafant I am in Southern California and looked for a VK-6200 all over the U. S. for 4 or 5 months. During that time I spoke to a number of BAT dealers all across the America. Far and away the best dealer and where I ended up buying my BAT was with Larry Diaz who owns High End Palace in Florida. He is no longer an official BAT dealer, but has a long standing relationship with Viktor and Steve @ BAT. He spent about 2 or 3 months with me as I was shopping for the right amp. He took his time to answer all my questions and never once made me feel that I was taking up too much time. In the end him and I made a very fair deal for both of us on a pre-owned mint VK-6200 as well as a beautiful sound anchor custom platform. Call him and tell him Charles referred you. His number is 786-388-8050. Larry is also a dealer here on Audiogon. BTW, there is a very well known BAT dealer about 45 minutes from me, and I have purchased a number of items from him in the past. That I decided to buy from Larry who is 3,000 miles away should say quite a bit about how he treated and worked with me. Good luck! 👍 |
On Audioaficionado, someone compared an ARC REF6 pre with a Mcintosh C2600, and said there is nothing to write about that makes the REF6 more than 2x the price of the C2600... So I don't know it you guys are comparing the ARC preamps to welding machines, but I just don't get why all this fuss about them... |
If you think the McIntosh c2600 is remotely close to the ref 6 let alone the ref 10 then you’re either listening through Polk audio bookshelf speakers or you’re partially deaf. Remember, buying a ref 6 makes sense if the rest of your components are up to par. You can’t hear a difference when you’re using def tech speakers. As a matter of fact I don’t understand why anyone would buy any other speaker other than electrostatics if your speaker budget is little. A pair of montis or summit x would be better than the top of the line polk audio model. If your budget is 5k for speakers then you buy those speakers I mentioned above unless you’re stealing a pair of 20k speakers for 5k. |
techno_dudeIs your experience just reading reviews?? Go buy a Sim 740p, ARC Ref10, ARC REF6, Devialet 800 ... and do a shoot out and report your results. Happy Listening and Keep ME posted!!! |
People keep being drawn to the gauges of McIntosh equipment. I don’t mind the brand at all and when bought at the right price then it’s good to own. Audio research is just above at all levels. McIntosh is just a cheaper alternative to audio research. Look, on Tuesday I’m buying the ref 10 again which is still the best component I’ve owned. Hell I may even buy the 250se to try it with the Wilson audios or perhaps the momentums? The point is the ref 10 is coming back because I want to try it once I am set up in my new home. Lastly, people need to understand that magazines need to make money and need manufacturers to advertise. They can’t bad mouth and I get it. Stop listening to what magazines say. Use it as a foundation but just know that you may feel different when you try it. If I recommend a component, you’re most likely to also like it and be impressed by it depending on what you have owned. |
Hmmm guys... If the McIntosh preamps suck that much compared to ARC, how come the top big Mac rigs with their top monoblocks at audio shows sound so darn good... I have never eard any bottleneck effect at the numerous shows I have gone to. I mean Mac is using its preamps on those rigs, not ARC preamps. If their pres would suck so much as you say, don’t you think we would easely be earing that huge bottleneck effect at shows or at dealers.The word would spread if that were the case. SO in that regard, you guys are exagerating the différences, or else it would be known and obvious all over the place that Mac preamps are just the Bose of preamps... They cannot demonstrate their top gear with sub-par performance preamps , it is mostly impossible...they must have something very good that matches their high end amplifier performance. We are not talking about speakers here , but about preamplifiers... a piece of gear that passes the signal from one to another piece of gear ! |
I’ve been following this thread for some time.... great work! Since you asked about Wilson, here’s my system. Wilson MAXX 2 (Sophias in the back for surround), VTL TL 6.5 pre-amp, VTL s-400 amp, Schiit Yggy DAC, Rogue phono pre-amp, with VPI turntable. All transparent audio cabling. I find the system very revealing and do not consider it bright. It has wonderful dynamics on Pop/rap music, can flesh out complex orchestral passages beautifully, and has shows rich dense tone colors on Jazz. Im very exciting that you are going to be trying out a pair of Wilson speakers. I’m very interested in your findings. Once again, great thread. Keep up the great work! |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmn4UX1fpU You seriously want me to believe that if you swap the Mac preamp in that rig in the video above, with a REF6 from ARC...that the sound will be transcended so we'll all pis. on the floor. Come on. Maybe change the speakers for big Wilson or big Verity Audio or I dont know...maybe that will transcend the sound ...but the pre come on guys. |