My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
It’s about the gear and not music. 300%. If you want to be enamored with music, thats called Pandora, spotify, tidal and qobuz. I suspect I can now move on and continue my journey now that I have publicly made it clear that this is about my experience with THE GEAR and NOT the music ? Do you now understand the thread greyhound? Music is SECONDARY TO ME. I care to understand the gear FIRST. To Ron17s point, I am a "car tweaker" who loves to try new wheels, exhaust, turbos, superchargers. I DO NOT spend time taking joy rides on weekends in the car. I am the guy who will be under the car looking at everything and seeing where I can make improvements to it. Music is part of the tweaking only because I need to hear the components pros and cons. There is no other way for me to understand what happened to the sound unless I listen to some music. I spend 90% understanding the equipment and 10% listening as part of the exercise but not because I am extremely excited to sit there listening all time. I enjoy the occasional listening session until 2am but that is not my mission objective.
My M.O. is to be testing and trying until 2am. It is not to play albums for hours on end. I can do that in my car or at the gym while I do cardio for an hour. I brought the ma252 for these reasons: -to give THOSE OF YOU who play with gear that is more modestly priced a feel for what it does with something like the Alexia 2. This is something YOU WILL NEVER SEE DONE EVER. Any Alexia 2 owner wouldn't have a McIntosh ma252 to drive this Speaker but I did it to give you that exposure. Again, to do something that you don't see often
- I also wanted to hear a little bit of tubes with the Alexia because I am contemplating doing something with tubes but needed to answer a few questions to myself and this integrated allowed me to answer a few things.
- lastly, I don't always have super expensive stuff. Please look back at my videos where you can see I've had different equipment levels.
I’ve burned too much time explaining myself today. I’m going to go and be productive.
Jetted, actually jay does ask for peoples opinions, and that’s a big part of what the thread it about. On the other hand what Ron said I believe is correct. If the equipment someone has dosnt get great marks compared to way more expensive equipment they take offense to it. I own some mac equipment, dosnt bother me in the least. What I own does fantastic at its price and for the purpose. I do not expect it to be compared favorably to my Soulution, or a Mephisto. Greyhound, because someone agrees with much of what Jay says dosnt make them a fan boy, nor should it be a negative. Just means they see things the same way, and I cannot count how many times jay has said that he is expressing his opinions, and that doesn’t mean it works the same for everyone. If the opinions are too diverse for anyone, I’d suggest finding a more entertaining thread. No one can police all the forum and try to control all the content they do not agree with.
I agree with grey9hound that he is not here to criticize Jay or anyone else. He seeks truth only. He happens to believe that tubes offer a uniquely natural quality that eludes SS. In my early days with SS, I thought they were unnatural, and I found tubes more lifelike. I loved the Theta and ARC SP6B tube preamps. I think that SS has made great strides, and now think that the best SS has overall advantages over tubes, but I respect where grey is coming from. He probably would love to hear the $150K VAC 452 mono tubes, and so would I. He might admit that he prefers them to his present more modestly priced tube amp. But maybe not, the VAC may be too SS-ish for him, and decide that his present tube amp is best for him, regardless of price.
Greyhound makes huge points. Why bring the McIntosh 252 and resell it the same day ? And then having to defend yourself in multiple posts like a devil in holy water ?
I really miss the point of this ? Isn’t this thread about trying the ultra high end gear or not ? Spending time with it ( a little at least) ? Really seems like the Mac is just too good to keep YouTubing it, compared to the big msrp Gryphon Mephisto...
WC, It is totally respectable that your mission here is to evaluate gear, not music. When I am considering a component, I use particular recordings to evaluate the component. I listen to certain tracks endlessly for this purpose. I spend much less time listening to music. But then I switch gears, and listen and enjoy my recordings. The ultimate payoff is when I listen to the recordings I have had for 50 years, and get so much more enjoyment from the music now that my equipment is so much more revealing. I think you do some of what I do with your music. You often speak about how you enjoy the music. You value detail and clarity, and enjoy discussing audiophile terms like soundstage depth and slam, but you also value your overall enjoyment of the music, with its "soul" and after a few drinks.
I think you agree that both gear and music are enjoyable. They support each other back and forth. That's what grey9hound is saying.
techno...yeah I think you missed the point. I don't think this thread is about trying 'ultra high end gear'...I think it's about trying all kinds of gear. 2 out of the 3 speakers the OP currently owns are mid level speakers. The Luxman, Simaudio, Parasound, McIntosh etc...are not 'ultra high end gear'. I think nothing pleases the OP more than to find a mid priced component that punches way above its weight class. As the OP stated, he bought the McIntosh integrated amp to have some fun with and to see how well it played with the Wilsons and to give people a chance at an unusual pairing. I thought it sounded good with the Wilsons. Nothing like the Mephisto but very good for a 4k integrated. To keep the party going I'm assuming it needed to be sold right away to help pay for the next piece of equipment....he can't keep everything for long and constantly have components coming in. Instead of being thankful for the opportunity to hear the little Mc, people are critical...I just don't get it.
I really don’t think bringing the Mac 252 was WC ´s wish or idea.... This absolutely does not compute with WC’s sayings and doings...
Guys, you really believe he decided on a morning... well lets blow 4 k$ for fun to make a video and resell the thing the same day. Plus look at how he and his fans have to defend the price ratio comparability with the Mephisto... Someone here is not happy at what happened, that sure wasn’t expected as there is just too much overdefending going on..
Like Greyhound said. Knowing the truth (about overpriced gear ?) is the reason we are here. And it seems it is being hidden, as the more it goes the more things on this thread do not compute...
OK...so you're here to learn the truth about overpriced gear but you seem to disagree with almost everything the OP does and says. So again, why are you still here?
Tecno is back to the old MO it seems. Only here to criticize whatever Jay does. Hey I just bought four different rifle scopes last night, between 12k and 500.00 and then another two today. Why? To find out what they do and what I like. Some people just do these things because they can. I own over 100 guitars and nearly 50 guitar amps. Why does one guy need all that? Answer is, he dosnt. But I like the differences each one provides. A very few I really don’t like at all, but I hate the process of selling, boxing, shipping, responding etc, so I pretty much keep everything I buy. I’d say what jay is doing fits perfectly with what he’s said he is doing, and even then, over time, he’s changed his ideas of things as he learned more. Like his thoughts on racks. Why try to pigeon hole someone? It’s a journey and even someone who delves at the top of the hobby don’t know, and hasn’t heard everything. Let the rest of us who are Intrested in learning, do so. You’re not going to force anyone into your mold of what they should be, then they’d be you. Tecno I know I’ve asked you to start your own you tube channel so you can show us what you think the path should be. Hey, I’ll be one of the first to watch and see what you’ve got to show us. Just criticizing others dosnt give me the idea that you have something constructive to offer. I have a few ideas of my own, but I’m not the one expending the time, energy and money that jay is to do it, so until I am, I sit back, watch the show, and if any of my, hopefully somewhat constructive comments or ideas gets used, that’s great. If not, it’s ok, I’m having fun with things just as they are. I still don’t get why people who are so obviously against a subject continue to stay in a thread that they do not enjoy. Really makes no sense to me.
But he does enjoy attacking Jay, being a naysayer and fomenting discontent. If you look at his posts (and yes it is stomach-turning), you will see these elements. Sad.
It’s just sad that seems to be the activity he enjoys in his free time. I don’t get off on trying to ruin anyone’s days unless they’ve seriously done something to me. I’ve had an armed robber( same guy) sow up at my store three times in the last couple of months. I do wish to ruin his day if he tries it again, and he’s the reason for my renewed interest in guns after decades of getting rid of what I used to have. Will finally get my car back on Monday, he got shot at while trying to steal it a second time, and had extensive damage that has taken nearly a moth to repair. So yes I do feel the desire to ruin that guys day, and hopefully when the police find the time to prices the fingerprints, dna, and his cell phone he left in my car, they will find him and do just that. I just cannot believe that Jay has down anything to anger tecno other than maybe he didn’t rate something g he likes very well. Who knows, and seems childish. Part of what most of us like about what jay does is that he’s honest. Maybe my favorite doesn’t fare so well, oh well. Maybe that’s why all the professional reviewers seem to like everything, and the ones who give numbers to rate, everything is so close when you know that’s not correct. Don’t want to offend anyone. I prefer the honesty, and as always, Rember, it’s jays opinion and preferences that he’s posting. He says this over and over. It’s not meant to offend. The idea is to express ideas ( in a non negative and confrontational way).
speedbump6, Wow, 100 different guitars. I once went to a violin collector. He had 100 low priced violins displayed in his bookshelves. I don't know why he didn't collect much fewer but finer violins for all the money he spent. I was out to buy a fine violin at a reasonable price, so didn't care for any of his violins. But he enjoyed his collection, and I know other collectors who have finer stuff. To each his own.
WC is like a collector of a few pieces of fine stuff who does very well in the process of buying and selling so he can move on to the next great item.
I’m not much into the vintage stuff. Most of mine are new, or newer. I do have a few inexpensive guitars, but then ranging up to about 10k. Most 8n the 3-6k range. A lot of custom builds. For me it’s about how they sound, quality over quantity, though I know from the number it might not seem like it, lol.
@viber6 XLR 6v output is the defacto standard now days for the last few years. i used to have lumin t2 before and it was 6v on XLR and 2V on RCA and this was fixed, thats it. 2v ship has sailed and it was meant older CD players. reason dcs also gives other lower voltage option is to make sure if there are any older pre-amp and power amps that might have problem with input voltage sensitivity can work seamlessly. it also works as flexible option to compensate for overall gain or impedance in the system to change it across dac , pre-amp or power amp when we mix and match various components. i find 6v setting on rossini to have the best clarity, texture and liveliness.
goodsource, Thanks, but I am confused. When I did recording onto DAT in 1995, it would clip at 2V. Have the media changed so they can accommodate much higher levels? 2V input into a power amp with 29 dB of gain will produce 400 watts output into 8 ohms. If the amp has a great power supply, that is 800 watts into 4, 1600 watts into 2. 6V input will produce 3600 watts into 8 ohms, 7200 into 4, 14,400 into 2. If the 6V setting is used on the Rossini, then there should be no need for an additional preamp for more gain if you want more dynamics or more power than 3600, 7200, 14K watts. Something sounds fishy. I would think the 2V input would work great.
Do you happen to know if the Rossini has a built in analog preamp stage for more gain? If modern recording media have maximum capacity of 6V, then maybe the Rossini doesn't have any analog circuitry for gain, but either uses a digital volume control, or an analog attenuator. Poster justmetoo wrote that good modern DAC's do the attenuation via an analog volume control rather than bit-stripping. If that is the case, then all you need is a volume pot rather than additional analog gain circuitry, so DCS is doing it the way I like. I still think that a DAC should just do the D/A without any analog circuitry, and connect to a dedicated analog preamp for the gain and attenuation.
@viber6 rossini does not have an analog preamp, also does not have analog volume control or for attenuation. voltage gain stage is present and almost happens in all of the devices whether it is dac or preamp or power amp but current gain stage is present only in power amp.
you are right that with 6v you do not a need a preamp, but that is from a gain perspective. but do you need a passive or active preamp which can do a 0db pass thru with a well built analog volume control. since there are myriad of different sources that produce any where from 0.2,0.6, 2v and 6v, that is why most of the good preamps have an adjustable offset from anywhere to - 6db to +6db, so that you can carefully match to your power amp and speaker load appropriately
also very few dacs have adjustable voltage on XLR like dcs.pretty much most manufacturers have fixed 6v on XLR these days.
I Guess I just do not get if someone has this much of an issue with WC then Bail Out! Earlier in the thread techno was "Protecting us all" ,by letting everyone who would listen know=WC is selling his gear all of the time.Sometines he might even make money!! THE SHAME,lol as I said way back then I/We appreciate you lookin out for us but, we didn’t ask and we don’t want your help in that regard. All of the gear WC cycles thru this thread is so far above my pay grade but,I get to enjoy reading about him doin it and posting his impressions. I might drive a Yugo but that doesn’t mean I do not enjoy reading and hearing about a LAMBO. Perhaps you should gracefully bow out of this one,or,as WC referenced time to "TAP OUT"
Wow! Really you mean there are people buying and sellIng gear here on Audiogon. Amazing! Lol!, Axememan- I agree, you nailed it. Who cares if he sells it. What do you expect him to do. Keep it all, stack it in a warehouse. Who on this sight isn’t buying and selling gear. Everyone is; that is what this site has always been about. At least with WC You can hear it and get a good idea of what it’s like. Where is the problem?
Last video before I place the critical mass in the mix. Please listen critically to this video and the one before it so you can hopefully pick up the difference once I use the new stand.
Just watched the video and I have to tell you that you have a great sound going on there. Very nice. Are you using a pre amp? Sounds really good. Amazing detail and depth and character in the vocals is amazing. What ever you are doing you are heading in the right direction. Good stuff 👍👍
It's the proof that the mephisto is ultra neutral. It is letting us hear how "wired" or boosted it was sounding with the nordost odin 1 speaker cables. It is very easy to hear how transparent and clear it is when changing components. The Gryphon Pandora preamp has arrived so now we will slowly get to move up the ladder with the presentation. First, I'll do a few videos with only the critical mass and after about a week, we will add the Mephisto's wife in the mix to create what could be one special marriage. More to come
Right there is the proof in the pudding. Great example of someone thinking about putting a system together like this, only has to watch your video Jay. What a joy it would be to listen to that system everyday!
I've already heard the critical mass today and last night. I was advised by critical mass that I need to let it break in at least 300 hours because the weight of the amplifier needs to sink completely into the filters and that takes time . The initial impressions of this stand are positive but I'll let the you all hear for yourselves. It's been almost 2 months of tweaking the mephisto and finally we are about to find out what it will do.
@whitecamaross finally i see things are coming together for you with pandora preamp,AQ cables , CMS stand. very nice and happy for you. i find the perennial personal attacks and unfounded criticism on jay without understanding what this thread stands for is quite irritating. jay you definitely deserve to take your thread to a better forum, where the thread initiator has better control. also where we can like and upvote and share some pictures in thread.a bit more modern community forum with more features.
Keith Don't Go is the best I have ever heard it in the latest video. I went back to the 20.7 videos but couldn't find any with the Mephisto playing this song. I only found the 20.7 video of Aug 11, but with the Dag amp on the stand playing Keith Don't Go. This sounds a little muffled and lacking some snap in the midrange, compared to the Alexia 2 + Mephisto. This leads me to think that the Mephisto is in another world of neutrality and clarity compared to the other amps, which now helps the Alexia 2 beat the 20.7 with the other amps for what i like--clarity, snap. What a surprise!
Thanks. That song isn't the best recording by the way. If you all play it in your system then you'd know what I'm talking about. That was/is a tease before I begin.
I can't judge anything from this recording. I know you are just beginning with this teaser #1. Most informative will be using the same recordings you have played without the stand. My favorites are Q&A, Baby I love your way, Keith Don't go. The best recording for natural sound was Perhaps Love, but too bad you only played it on 1 video so far. I know you are unlikely to go back and forth with and without the Critical Mass stand--too many difficult logistics, and by the time you are physically tired doing the heavy lifting, your ears are tired also. My best listening is just after I wake up, feeling refreshed.
I am NOT getting the mephisto off of the stand. It's there and it won't move anymore. Whatever we have before the stand was added is what we have as a "before" the stand. 250 lbs with sharp heatsinks isn't something I'm going to be messing with.
I thought your last video was the cleanest with great speed and good decay. Could have been from the Christine pre in the chain? (Hope it was in the mix or .....lol)
I don't understand the teaser. Why didn't you play the exact recordings that you used in the last video? How can we learn anything from one different song?
It’s a teaser...it’s to show the Mephisto on the stand with something playing... Also, most of you use ipads to listen (yes youtube tells me this) so I don’t think you will capture much from the stand so don’t expect to hear a difference. For those of you who have a decent set of headphones, you will pick up differences. Stay tuned.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
