My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!


So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
witecamaross - I realize this is a change in direction, but I'd like your thoughts on how the Alexia I compares to the Alexia II.
Tecno, it’s too bad he can’t pass on some of the Memphistos clarity 
to you. Seems like you might be using lamp cord for wiring over there. The processor in the line stage seems a bit wonky also. All the clarity on this thread seems to shine a light on those issues, just like the mephisto is doing on some components that can’t match it. 

WC,

Can you elaborate on the sonic differences between the Dag HD and the Christine?  We know that Dag in general is smooth and euphonic, but not as much as ARC.  I found that the Merrill 114 was smooth, detailed with some euphonic touch.  Perhaps the Christine is similar.  So it would be interesting to hear what you found with Dag HD vs Christine.  I don't know how much listening you did with Christine + Mephisto.  What were your findings with other amps?  I just got an email that Merrill is coming out with a new Element preamp and phono stage.  All of your preamps have been euphonic in various degrees, so if Mephisto is the most revealing/transparent amp you have had, then perhaps the Gryphon preamp may also have the same character.  I do hope you can get it, but be prepared to be assaulted with the ruthless detail they may present together.  If I am correct, don't soften if with euphonic cables.  Since you like fast cars, go for the fast sound as well.

Same reasoning goes for the potentially exciting, fast new Boulder 2160.  Revisit your DCS direct without any preamp.  I still say that all preamps inject some veil which decreases the clarity/transparency.  You may have liked preamps with your other amps, but now you are in the big leagues with transparency/clarity from the Mephisto, and might really appreciate the DCS direct into Mephisto, and into Boulder when you get it.  Of course, you will save big bucks by eliminating preamps.

speedbump6,

You may not realize that lamp cord has clarity, even if the fullness of bass is reduced.  Why don't you try zip cord?

Everything will be explained on tonight’s video. It drops at 7pm Eastern time. Be on the lookout for it.
Nice video discussion of many topics.  However, the revealing, transparent Mephisto is not the wild child.  It knows what it is doing, and is trying to teach you to appreciate its honest transparency to dig more of everything out of the music, and move away from your sweet comfort food, all the previous euphonic pieces.  For example, you said that the Mephisto showed the shortcomings of the ARC ref 6se, and the ARC couldn't keep up.  That is true, because Mephisto, the master teacher, said to the ARC student, "you are dull, you mumble your words, and you have no place in my classroom where I teach clarity of thought and delivery.  The truth is beautiful."
Jay. Could you please tell your YouTube watchers the number of the page in this thread where they can read the discussion pertinent to the video?

Something to the effect of: This video link will be posted on page 237 of my Audiogon thread for those who would also like to comment on that platform.
Nothing is being evaluated properly.  I already said the ARC has cheap rubber super dull sounding stock footers.  They are not high end at all....rubber sounding.  I am not saying that if you put $1000 feet under it and mounted it on a $5000 stand and put a $225 fuse in it, and found the best tubes and damped the top with damped weights that you would think it is the best in the world (but you might)......but it would be incredibly better than what you heard.  It might be better than the DAG.  You have never heard what it can do.  If you did all what I just mentioned you would crap your pants....it would be so much better.  You are just fooling around.  Nothing serious here. 
Hello everyone.   I’ve come full circle as it’s been about three yrs since I began in earnest to put together a hybrid system (A/V and stereo); having stumbled on this very thread for assistance and ended up purchasing my first amp, the fabulous Krell 403 E from yours truly, WC. Well I’m back to see if I might find some assistance with a nice pairing for my Magico M2 that will be replacing my focals. I’m hoping the Krell will fill in for the time being and hoping to find a more suitable amp that’ll show the M2’s full potential. Many thanks and happy listening. 
Ricevs makes sense.  Soft rubber footers probably yield soft sound.  Ricevs knows for sure.  The stand is important since I actually heard the Dag S250 on the Artesania stand to have comparable sound as the Colosseum without stand.  The new stand for the Mephisto probably will make the Mephisto even more revealing and tight, although the very heavy Mephisto may show less benefit with a stand than the Dag did.  I don't know what kind of footers the Mephisto has.  Merrill is smart to include good footers as part of his design.
Ricevs 
Sorry to disappoint and not meet your needs. However, I am ok not satisfying yours and satisfying my own personal needs and the many others who find it valuable. Can't please everyone and I am ok with that. Maybe this thread isn't for you ? 
At redphu72.

I hope you are doing ok. Long time no see. Awesome Magico m2 by the way. I liked the speaker the few times I have heard it. That said, I don’t believe the krell 403e I sold you will be up to the task. It will work but wont untap the potential of the m2. You’ll need to start looking for something with more class and resolution. Magico m2 are extremely transparent.
Better yet, he can start his own channel and do it however he likes. I’d prob watch it also if he did. One man can only do so much. Or if he wants to split costs maybe something could be worked out, lol. 
I agree with ricevs. The REF6SE is not even completely broken in. Just changing the fuse to one Synergistic Research Orange fuse would help dramatically over the stock one. It's ok to go that route i.e. to decide not to perform these enhancements but one cannot say "amp X completely destroyed amp Y" or "preamp 1 provides so much more clarity than preamp 2" like we read often on this thread if you do not extract every last drop out of it and make the comparison in the best conditions possible. The rest is simply component matching to get the sound you like, nothing else and it applies to the Mephisto like to any other component. And I don't think it takes more time to adjust/tune at that level as there are less options available in that bracket vs the 5K$-20K$ range.
When you are doing a comparison or evaluation of a product or multiple products you want to have a base to start from.
Once you have the base you can make changes and see if there are any improvements or negative effects.

Maybe WC is working off his base for comparison and evaluation. Once he has his answer he moves on from there, makes changes, sees what the results are. Then he gets the most out of that amp that he can.
@flrun
That’s exactly what I have said on several of my videos . Thank you for echoing my words. I'm trying to see what the mephisto is and its dna and then the tweaking begins. 
@flrun What you describe makes sense when you do evaluate a product. You can start with the base and try some tweaking afterwards. Perfectly fine. But that does not work when you COMPARE products. At very least, the base component should be broken in as recommended by the manufacturer. Then you start evaluate. Again, it's ok to skip all of this and test a component right out off the box but then you cannot make any valid judgement on the quality of the unit.
The ARC won't be at the level of the mephisto. Sure we can improve its sound my adding fuses, footers etc but it won't be able to "drive " the mephisto to its full potential. I am trying to reach the highest performance possible from the mephisto and I don't believe audio research will do this. I believe a solid state Preamp will take it where it needs but finding that is what will be Russian roulette. For now, I have just purchased the next preamplification for it. I will disclose what it is on a future Video. 
I will be uploading another video of the mephisto but now with the Merrill Christine Preamp. Once again, you'll be able to hear how EASY it is to hear the change in sound with the Alexia 2 and mephisto. I think deaf people can hear it using their iPads. 
So it’s a match up of Dag HD preamp vs Merril Christine preamp... coupled to the Mephisto.

Interesting !
The Christine is a purist design, no power switch with an external supply to reduce maximum noise. Viber, do you know if it’s a passive preamp or active ? The Dag HD is an all new design by Dan, an active more normal preamp with added tone controls, etc. It is also supposed to be blessed with great resolving and transparency qualities. It is also 3 times the retail price of the Christine !! Lets see if that shows. Please WC, same db level , same everything, no tricks.
The tweakers coming out on this thread is the greatest thing ever. 
The one thing I’ll agree with techno on is that the chase has gone away from music and into hifi attributes (Resolution! Bass! Slam!) and “making things work.” The luxman combos have been the opposite over the years from your comments and Id bet you return to them before it’s all over. 
haha WC burning the midnight oil. 
love it 
great insights this week, looking forward to the next preamp
i'm speculating the pre is a Pandora.  I guess we will see.  i'm looking forward to the first piece of the puzzle here, the pre-amp (although that is in a race with burn in i dare say).  what we need is some quiet and so far it seems to me there has been a little fuzz.  

i was interested to read that the Pandora has all sorts of emphasis on isolation and noise reduction.  as in, Gryphon themselves struggled with what you are struggling with WC, i.e. noise.

this corresponds with WC's observations of Mephisto to date and what we can hear in the videos, i.e. the Mephisto can bear no fuzz in the input - it will amplify it.  

i have heard of people using the Robert Koda pre-amp with it as well as the MSB Dac (couple of people loved that) as well as the CH Pre-amplifier (although that duo sounds orchestra orientated).
Yes Robert Koda K-15EX is used by some Mephisto owners as well as Audionet Stern, both very good options.
The Dag HD preamp will be very hard to beat. It is supposed to be the cream of the crop and at it’s retail price it should be ! Contenders will just give a different presentation but not better...

Merril Christine preamp is very well engineered also, and could be a surprise as we know it shoot far above it’s price point.

Ayre has the KX-5 Twenty that you could try, it’s a bargain compared to the KX-R 20 and has all the trickled down tech. from it. Who knows, maybe it could be the match made in heaven with the Mephisto you are looking for.
The Ayre KX-5 uses a double diamond output stage which is known to add midrange richness. ( it’s kind of a Class A thing with constant voltage on in the output stage...its the reason why those Ayre pieces heat a bit) This is why I am suggesting this one for the Mephisto. And for WC, there is nothing to loose as this one is pocket change compared to the rest of his gear.
WC,
I listened to Mi Viejo on the videos.  With the Christine, it appears to be recorded louder by 3-6 dB compared to the Dag HD, so I cannot compare the sound quality with the Christine vs Dag.  

Perhaps for now, until you get the heavy duty stand, you can use the stands that the JC1+ are now sitting on, for the Mephisto.  In an earlier video, the left stand is supporting the ARC sitting on the JC1+, so that is about 100 lbs or more.  I don't know what maximum weight that stand can support, but perhaps the 2 stands together can support the 108 kg of the Mephisto.  Leave 1" space between the 2 stands, and let the left and right feet of the Mephisto be supported by the left and right stands, respectively.  That should help a lot.
techno,
No, the transparency and resolution of the Mephisto should not be corrupted by the Ayre or anything that adds midrange richness. You couldn’t PAY me to do that.  I hope the Gryphon Pandora preamp is coming, which probably has consistent character as the Mephisto.

The Christine preamp is active, not passive.
Viber...
I never said what I am using with the mephisto on the video that I uploaded today.....never said if it was Merrill or dac direct...
I only presented it to show that there has been a slight improvement when it comes to bass tightness, more dimensionality, etc... It is not all there yet, but I am sure you all can hear certain aspects have improved over the presentation that came from the ref6se and mephisto...
OK, but my point is that the volume levels are different, whether you are using the Christine or DCS direct, so it is hard to tell true differences.  Besides, the bass quality of the Mi Viejo recording (not your system) is terrible, so I listen for the jangle and sparkle of the instruments that follow shortly.  Don't get me wrong, I am routing for the Mephisto as it burns in.  And I can't wait to hear the fully developed Mephisto and comparably transparent preamp on the Maggie 20.7, still your most brilliantly clear speaker, except for deep bass.
Time...many more trials to come.. magnepan 20.7 will be heard with the mephisto at some point... 
Don’t discount the improvement realized by simply moving the 20.7 from right behind the Wilsons. Was wondering on previous vids why in the heck is he storing those there??
Maybe because I have a lot of new components off to the right of my listening chair that I haven’t talked about ???
Anyhow , I just loaded a new video. The level of change between this mornings video and the video from right now is easily heard....yep....that's how crazy transparent things are right now...only thing I changed was....I'll let you all know on tomorrow's video. 
Yes can hear the changes. My guess is 1st was with Christine pre next was direct. 2nd a bit too clean IMHO.
@whitecamaross 
WC/Jay
just curious why do you keep stacking the dac and the clock and the preamp on top of. each other.you have a space to the right of it, an available space in the top middle of the rack. why don't you place you preamp there?

second, are you completely happy and satisfied with bass of alexia 2 or do you have any plans to add a subwoofer?
Thanks for the questions. I'll answer this question on tomorrow's video. Tomorrow's video is about what I did on both videos and answering some questions. 
If anyone has any questions, post them. 
I believe he’s said why would anyone need more bass, but that was said sashas also, lol. Don’t think a sub is in the cards. 
Has anyone mentioned the Benchmark AHB2 power amp?  I've seen reviews suggesting it's the best amp ever made.  Seems like a wild claim to me.  Still, it does get better measurements for a lower price than some other highly regarded amps.
Yes, I almost bought the AHB2 after a 60 day trial.  It didn't quite beat my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2 amp for clarity/neutrality, but it was close, and better than everything else I have heard at home.  I still consider the AHB2 a giant killer.  The only amp that might beat it is the Mephisto.
Jeez..you are completing disregarding a ton of amps by saying the mephisto is the only amp to best it...you are saying these amps won't best it:

Luxman 900
Gryphon coloseum
Gryphon antileon evo
Gryphon essence
Simaudio 860v2
Pass labs xs300
Constellation centaur 2
Constellation Hercules
Etc
Etc
Etc
Yeah @viber6 is saying this ONLY based on your UTube videos without actually hearing any in his own system! Will anyone ever learn that the best way is to actually hear something is in a system they know well. 
AHB2 and zip cord on this thread. That’s pretty much all you need to know about Viber6 and whether to take him seriously...

Exhibit A: "the only amp that might beat [AHB2] is the Mephisto"

Get ready for the walkback...


Actually he said  "Yes, I almost bought the AHB2 after a 60 day trial.  It didn't quite beat my unique Bryston 2.5B SST2 amp for clarity/neutrality, but it was close,"

So the order of best amps would be:

1 Bryston 2.5B SST2
2 Benchmark AHB2
3 Mephisto
4 Everything else

No walkback for me.  The Mephisto is the only amp on this thread to impress me, although of course only based on the YT videos and WC's comments.  Most of the other amps listed are euphonic expensive boat anchors, whose sound has been well described by WC.  I can only speculate (without personal experience) that the Gryphon Essence and Sim 860 V2 have the sound quality I might like.  These are best values to me.  Before Mephisto, WC said that the Colosseum had the best sound, although probably not the best value.  We'll see how the Mephisto develops, and he might even pronounce it to be the best value, because the sound quality leaves others in the dust.

One or two posters on this thread have confirmed my experience with the Benchmark AHB2.  Any snide remarks about zip cord are just as uninformed as anyone who says that component X is bad without having heard it.  In case anyone wants to criticize my euphonic pronouncements about most of those amps, I have not heard them, but respect WC's descriptions of them as such. 

I am prepared to admit that the Mephisto may be #1.  If WC lived closer to me, I would bring over my Bryston and we could listen together. Unfortunately, I would be unlikely to buy it, because I can't handle the Mephisto's weight by myself, and am wary of buying foreign stuff because of shipping for repairs, etc. 

Viber,
So that’s like saying, you wouldn’t buy a Mercedes Benz because of how expensive the maintenance is or repairs EVEN THOUGH you admit it being a much better driving experience than the Toyota RAV4?
I mean, for me, if you are buying ANYTHING EXPENSIVE, you have to understand that it’s not just a one lump sum and you’re done.
If you buy a 2 million dollar house, just because you can make the payments, it doesn’t mean you can afford the taxes at the end of the year , the yard work, the pool maintenance, the day it needs a new roof etc. It is UNDERSTOOD that if you own a mephisto, YOU ARE prepared to deal with the added costs that it might bring to the table such as better front end, better speakers, etc. It is IMPLIED that you already know that it will take more effort to own anything in life, not just Amplifiers, and to keep and maintain ownership of anything at the top or near the top of the mountain.
This leads me to believe that you selected the bryston also because it weighs very little and it ships to Canada for repairs plus it has a 20 year warranty and not 100% because it is the best amp out there.
If this is how you PARTIALLY came to the conclusion that this bryston is the best there is, then I want to say you have been taking other facts into consideration that have ZERO to do with sound. This also leads me to believe you have yet to try the big boy amps because of the concern of them being to heavy for you. This is HUGE because this leaves a tremendous amount of amps out of a fair shot. 
Aren Bryston amps made in Canada? Doesn’t that make them a foreign country?
 Did Trump buy Canada and make it part of the USA?
"The Mephisto is the only amp on this thread to impress me, although of course only based on the YT videos and WC's comments. Most of the other amps listed are euphonic expensive boat anchors, whose sound has been well described by WC. I can only speculate (without personal experience) that the Gryphon Essence and Sim 860 V2 have the sound quality I might like."

So viber out of the all of the amps the OP has reviewed (possibly 75+ amps) there's only 1 amp that's impressed you and 2 more that you MIGHT like.  Man I think you're either too picky, or on the wrong thread.....or both.