Give a listen to the Audio Hungary I-20 and I-50 intergrated amps . Great tone, music just pours out of your speakers, and you can heat your house during the Winter with these tube amps
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
riaa, With your comments ,you are proving that what i said is true . I am sure you have never heard any Granite Audio stuff , and what does the looks of my basement have to do with anything ? Or me selling something because i need the money . I did not ask for anyone's approval besides Why should any of that matter to you ? |
Hi @Whitecamaross, last night Rowland has finally released information about the new M735 monoblock amp. Like its M725 predecessor, M735 runs in class A/B, and has a rated power of 330W per channel.
Per the announcement letter linked below, M735 is now available for shipment. It appears that the new amp may have been enhanced over its predecessor in several areas with potential sonic performance relevance, amongst which…
You will find more detail in the announcement letter below that you can download from my Dropbox:
Rowland M735 mono amplifier announcement:
The video below shows what the critter looks like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqrh9yxir927qbu/Rowland%20M735%20Monoblock%20Amplifier%20Video.mp4?dl=0
I am personally intrigued, but have not listened to M735 yet. I heard rumors that some pairs might have very recently been shipped to dealers. I suspect you might be able to secure a pair much before I do *Grins!*
I will post further technical details as they become available to me.
Saluti, Guido |
Thanks for the supportive words @zprr, Recently, I have also paid a great deal of attention to my digital "supply" side but I still have my previous setup available for comparison. I moved from an Aurender N100H--which is a very competent and musical sounding server/streamer to a NAS/Roon Nucleus+ setup. I initially made this transition so that I had better backup, easier editing capabilities, whole house (Sonos) music and thought that money wise, it would be a matter of less than $1000... How wrong I was! My initial results sounded terrible. So I embarked on a journey that included: upgrading nucleus + wall wart power supply to a Keces P8 linear power supply ($700 and a phenomenal impact), supplied with a Nordost Frey 2 PC, upgrading all relevant ethernet cables to Heimdall 2 (x3 cables--I was just shocked at what an improvement these made), sort Kones under both Keces and Nucleus+. Also, I reconfigured my home ethernet/wifi system and upgraded from a 80 mB AT&T to 1 TB WOW Internet provider. All along my USB interconnect was a Tyr 2 having upgraded over the past years from Blue Heaven ($250) to Heimdall 2 ($499) to Tyr 2 ($1299). If I could afford it, I would go for the Valhalla 2 USB which is just incredible. With these changes, my "server" went from unlistenable (harsh, lacking authority, no depth--like there was a layer of grunge on everything) to easily besting the sound of the Aurender. But in retail dollars the 2 setups (including isolation and connecting cables) went from $7500 to $12000. I am curious to find out if upgrading routers/switches and their commensurate power supplies would result in further improvements. But bringing this back full circle: My speakers are ProAc Response 5 which originally retailed for around $14,000 so about the same as my "server". The other ProAcs that I have owned were Response 3 ($6000) and Response 2.5 ($4,500) which I still believe to have been one of the best values in bang for the bucks I have ever heard on speakers. I would love to have a nice set of Wilson's or Sonus Fabers that would "moderate" speaker expense ratio, however I am quite happy with the ProAcs and next major upgrades are likely to be on my pre-amp and DAC which I currently regard as the weakest point in my system (Classe' SSP Sigma). So my "ratios" will continue to get more lopsided before "harmonizing" |
I never procrastinate. Im very consistent......I just buy and throw in storage!! Its my M.O. Actually the Accu was VERY reasonable. Didnt cost much more than what the Grey Market model is going for in New York. That's a good deal. But yea your still paying 1.5X what it sells for in Japan. I don't think there would be any problem flipping it for that amount after your done messing with it...but since none have become available on the used market yet who knows. You could be the 1st to find out!!! :) |
Ria Stop procrastinating and plug that xa25 into the wall or send it to WCSS to try it. I'll punish it here and see what it can do. Lol :) Accuphase is on my radar. It's really getting to that point now with accuphase. Unfortunately my connections don't carry it because the distributor is murdering people with the obscene mark-up. |
Riaa, it's all good. From reading between the lines of the glowing reviews (especially Teajay's), it seems the amp punches way above its price point in sound quality. The reason I asked you about trying it is I would love to have one and was curious, but I have not jumped in as I am not sure it would have enough juice to power my 87db 6 ohm speakers. I think that these specs were exaggerated and I like my decibels. Stay well. |
Jetter, I did not say YOU were financially challenged/limited. Read the post again for the 3rd or 4rth time. I made a general statement...not a personal one. Ive had that Amp for about 2 years now...still haven’t taken it out of the box. It came in a multi-piece deal...I HAD to take it to get what I wanted. When I say North East im referring to NY/NJ attitude. Not talking about VT, NH, ME...Not even remotely similar in disposition in my experience. Don't get me started with Bostonians and surrounding areas. |
Glad that worked out for you. If you ever go to separates you might prefer the 800 series over the 900. More musical...less refined/resolving. Jay needs to try these out since he prefers the 590 over 509. I haven't taken delivery yet of the ACCU...just ordered it about 10 days ago. Probably wont get to use it till 2021...still haven't used the XA-25 and that's about 2 years now since I acquired it. Im the Antithesis of Jay in that regard. My stuff gets stockpiled and collects dust...Jay's gear doesn't last long enough to collect any :) Good luck on your journey. |
@riaa_awards_collectors_on_facebook So the XA-25 is at the bottom of my 7 amp pile. Why on earth would I feel compelled to use it? Im sure its great bang for the buck for people that are financially challenged. You are more than welcome to it. It was used for 4 months by the prior owner.Yep, you found it. I can easily afford whatever I want, but was inquiring why you would not have the curiosity to hook up what was an extraordinarily well received amp. I am also from the Northeast. |
Riaa, based on your previous post, I see that you got the Accuphase E-800 integrated. I followed your advise from some older forums and bought Luxman 590axII that is much better than 509x to my ears. Thank you for that. But this E-800 has a really great specs, so I was wondering how good it is? Thank you. |
Found this in MY posts. Jetter asked about why I didn't use it (XA-25). Here is my response and I even offered to sell it to him. I can certainly see his problem with my generosity. Apologies to Jay for sidetracking his thread....but I know he is enjoying every minute of it!!! :) Jetter, Here is my current lineup of Amps. Please let me know which ones you would favor the XA-25 over. Dag 400 Monos, Arc 160M, Luxman M900U, Audio Note Jinro. I also recently purchased the Valvet E2 and I have the First Watt SIT-3 coming tomorrow. I have a friend who had the XA-25 (He sold it to me in a bulk deal) and he also has the Valvet and Sit-3 in his lineup...he prefers both of those considerably over the XA-25 and I know and trust his ears/taste etc. So the XA-25 is at the bottom of my 7 amp pile. Why on earth would I feel compelled to use it? Im sure its great bang for the buck for people that are financially challenged. You are more than welcome to it. It was used for 4 months by the prior owner. |
That’s odd Jetter. I have no recollection of that. There are NO PM’s from you in my inbox from the past. Went back 2 years in YOUR posts and there is nothing there either. HMMM.... I did find this thou: May 2019 RIAA, I am sorry if I upset you, I did not know about your hearing problem. The only reason I was asking you is because I have enjoyed reading your posts, had I known I wouldn’t have, it was all just meant to be fun. So Jetter...Please locate whatever you are talking about and feel free to re-post it and I will reply (If it isn't a figment of your imagination). If somebody asked me about a piece of gear I have or havent used...well how "bad" could the reply possibly be? If your going to accuse or slander somebody in public make sure you have proof. |
@grey9hound riaa,Isn’t that the truth. I was once interested in a Pass XA25 and inquired with RIAA why he hadn’t tried his. He came on like a, well, I just deleted what I wrote or the moderators would have.. |
Wow...thats a pretty big word for a guy who plays with Granite Mono Blocks. Oh wait...your add on Audiogon said the only reason you were selling them is because you needed the money. High times indeed in the Brady Bunch basement. Grandpa...my gear has been listed on this thread. Its also posted on Audio Aficionado, Audio Shark, Steve Hoffman sites. Seems you keep forgetting what everybody has tried or has in their collection. Dementia setting in?? Maybe some adult reading comprehension classes are in order. To be fair I get new gear in almost every week or two it seems so who could keep up. There are 3400 photos of my "collection" on my Facebook page. :) Amps: Accuphase E-800, Audio Research 160M, Line Magnetic 845 Premium, Valvet E2 SE, Pass Labs XA-25, First Watt Sit-3, First Watt Sit-1 Monoblocks, Audio Research 150M Multichannel. Recently departed: Dagostino M400 Monoblocks, Audio Note Jinro. Incoming/On Order: DECWARE EL84 25th Anniversary Mono Blocks, DECWARE Zen TorII MarkIV Pre: ARC Ref 10, Ayre KXR-Twenty, Luxman C900U, ARC MP-1 Multichannel, Conrad Johnson MET-1 Multichannel Disc Spinners: Esoteric K-01X 30th Anniversary, Luxman D-08U, AYRE DX-5 Universal Speakers: Joseph Audio Pearl 3, Klipsch Cornwall IV, Audio Solutions Figaro M, Harbeth SHL5+, Tekton Encore, Dynaudio Special 40, Dynaudio Contour 30 (Just traded), Triangle Comete EZ, Omega Compact 8, Monitor Audio Gold 200, JBL 590, Multiple pairs of other JBL Monitors 4425 etc |
Your correct riaa, Im just an 58 old man grandpa retired for 3 years now and I READ between your lines. Just another wanna be audiophile running off at the mouth about equipment you've never heard or had. Please list your system riaa along with a description and photos so we can see what type of wanna be you really are. |
Nice post @psynder and great to hear your perspective as well. It is an interesting question with obviously no rule of thumb that works for everyone. I do subscribe more to Paul’s approach and continue to enjoy new levels that my speakers are capable of. Most recently, I have found this to be the case on improvements to the server and networking side, and continued cabling upgrades. My speaker % continues to drop considerably. I imagine though at some point the speaker’s ’headroom’ will be tapped out and diminishing returns will set in. With luck, a speaker upgrade could happen down the road. Thinking out loud, I’d be particularly interested in breakout of %s by manufacturer or dealer cost vs msrp as it at least seems to me the margin on certain pieces of equipment may be higher than others, but I understand that info unlikely. I also agree with WC’s depreciation point and that it is always a moving target. Looking forward to the shootout WC! |
ron17 and WCSS, IMHO... Once you exit the world of lo-fi/mass market or even mid-fi, the 50% speaker rule can almost never reasonably make sense except unless you are putting together the most basic system. In 1972, I expect that the 50% speaker rule may have been relied upon... Then Ivor Tiefenbrun turned the hi-fi world upside down when he introduced the Linn Sondek LP12 with the belief that the source was the most important part of a system and as such should command the most (or at least equal parts) of the budget. Consider this: $10,000 (retail pricing only) system: $5,000 speakers (by rule…), SimAudio ACE (all in one) $3,400 with $1,500 in cables and it would sound really nice... But I bet those same $5,000 speakers would sound even better with a $5000 amp, a $5000 pre/pro (or even separate pre/dac, a $2500 network server/streamer, $2500 subwoofer, $5,000 in cables/isolation etc. Or you could even go a different direction and spend $5,000 on a turntable, arm and cartridge and $2,500 for a phonostage. Yes, now it is a $35,000 system, but the same speakers could still be sounding really great... although admittedly, I wouldn't be surprised if the next move would be to a $15000 pair of speakers! The problem with the ACE is that it offers little possibility for moving forward in an incremental way without largely starting over. With amp, pre-amp, streamer all in one box, speaker cable and PC and isolation is more or less all you can do. My personal experience is that to maximize marginal benefits and really get the most out of all of the components, there needs to be a certain balance and harmony. I'm not saying it has to be this way but I more or less have equal money in the following groupings: source components (phono and digital combined), pre amp/amp, speakers with each comprising approximately 10-20% of my system cost... The crazy thing is that the nearly 50% left over in my system after components is on accessories: cables (PC, IC, SC, USB, ethernet), power supply treatment and mechanical isolation…much to Ivor’s disapproval! Most of my accessories category was spent after I had purchased my main components (although I did have a reasonable MIT cable loom so I wasn't starting from scratch). With every additional accessory or cable upgrade the overall sound of my system improved. I'm pretty sure that absolutely nobody had accessories in mind as the head of the 50% rule, in fact I can't believe that my system has ended up this way, but if you told me I had to cut 50% out of one of my categories, the one I could most easily cut... is speakers. My current speakers have "little brothers" that sold for 1/3 of my current speakers, and previously, I owned a pair. I wouldn't choose to go back, but if I had to choose "one thing", that would be my choice... and it would be a quite easy choice! Let the firestorm of retorts begin!!!! lol |
Hello WC, I am with you concerning CH Precision.... I should add: two-dimensional, grainy, screechy, sand-papery, and utterly unmusical. Mind you, this was several years ago at RMAF in the CH Precision suite, so things might have evolved for the better since then... Asked the gent to play a few cuts from my test CD... The result was jaw-droppingly unsatisfactory.... Asked politely to the importer if perhaps the system was factory fresh and not broken in.... He responded stiffly that yes, it was fresh from the factory, and that it sounded perfect, because CH Precision electronics does not require any break-in whatsoever.... He said something like If I did not like it it clearly was because my sonic taste was not refined enough and I needed to accustom myself to the CH Precision sonic marvel. Asked the gent to please give me back my test CD, and left. G. |
@ron17. you have an interesting question in regards to how i feel about what we discussed a year ago. So i remember saying that speakers should be about 50% of your budget and right now (a year later) things are different for me. I own Sasha DAW which are not more money than my DCS DAC & Upsampler plus the Gryphon. I think it really depends on the advancements in technology to be honest. For instance: Let's say you have a speaker right now that is current and it retails for $50,000 and the rest of your set up adds up to another $50,000. Fast forward 5 years from now and you might find that there is now another manufacturer that now builds a speaker superior to your $50k speakers and yet it only costs $35,000. All of a sudden you find yourself with a speaker that costs less than the rest of your rig (adding all components of course) and so it is difficult to say, let alone stay within this proportion we talked about. For the most part i have only owned 1 speaker that was more than the rest of my rig and those were the Neoliths, but now that i think about it i realize that the rest of my journey i have always had speakers that probably are below the 50% total value of my rig. However, i don't believe that you could do a 15k speaker like let's say a martin logan 13a and use 100k worth of components and pretend that this will blow away a 50k speaker with 65k worth of electronics ($115k msrp on both systems). I don't think that electronics can close the gap when the speakers are oceans apart in terms of their price point. |
Wow, what a thread! whitecamaross, thank you for this and your video channel. I am waiting for delivery of my WA Sasha DAWs. Currently I have a Border Patrol S20 EXD amplifier. It’s a 18 wpc SET amplifier based on 300B tubes. I tried Border Patrol with Sashas at my place, and even WA people were surprised at the outcome. Of course, I am aware that a low power SET amplifier is normally not paired with Sashas, so I will try to audition as many amps as possible before making the final choice. My top 3 choices for Sasha DAW so far have been CH A1.5, Pass Labs XA 160.8 and Lamm M1.2 Reference. Lamm hybrid amp is a regular partner for WA speakers. But I have not found any examples of CH and WA pairing. What is your view on CH Precision amps in general and their use with WA speakers? Thanks in advance, Aziz |
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I've followed the thread since the beginning and so I forgot about if WC had tried one or monoblock and have you heard the 2301,s in a system set up properly cause if you had I doubt you would be so negative and Im not a MC fan but a pair of 2301,s properly set up will impress any audiophile. How old is the Gryphon Coliseum WC is using, At least you didn't open your mouth on the 452,s cause that would really show us what you know. |
#4425. The ARC160M is the latest ARC amp. Unfortunately the OP used them with the Neolith speakers which is hardly the appropriate/optimal pairing. Had he used them with Wilson/Joseph Audio or something else compatible his opinion Im sure would have been more favorable. Im sure that goes for a LOT of the gear in this thread. As far as the MAC 2301’s...Are you kidding me? Its like a 15 year old design that they havent been able to improve upon. No MAC Gear can compete with the Big Boys. Strictly for Mac Fan Boys. He’s already tried those in case you haven’t bothered reading the thread. He also has a Bad Back so the ARC 750’s are out of the question health wise AND they are impossible to sell...which is why there are ALWAYS multiple pairs on Audiogon. |
Looks like there's several pairs of Ref 750,s for sale and the one you mention has 1595 hrs on the tubes which means there due for new tubes and that's at least 32 tubes to be replaced and they better be matched which adds up to alot of money and Im only guessing here but I suspect the 750 is hard on tubes. Anyone looking to buy the Ref 750 better not be a novice with tube amps on this scale and I would seriously look at the Vac 452 IQ with there continuous biasing, fewer tubes and with the continuous biasing the tube life would be alot longer. |
@WCSS Around a year ago we had a heated discussion about the 'rule of thumb' that states 50% of total money spent on a system should be spent on speakers.....you were in favor of that rule and I was not. In the last year with your system consisting of an Aurender / dCS front end, Audio Research ref 6&10 and Luxman preamps, amps....(insert amp name here) and Nordost Odin cables. Just wondering if you still feel the same way? I am completely aware that a fantastic system can be built using that rule.....just not the kind you've been listening to lately. |
Just wanted to let everyone know that i have not been listening to music lately. i have been doing a projector shootout instead: Sony 695ES vs Epson 6050UB. I am not about post a video about this since it is not audio related. I have not listened to music since my last video. Next video might be the Shunyata Denali 600T vs Audioquest Niagara 5000. Let me know what components i should connect into them and which i should leave out. |
Very interesting your trip on this road for the amplifiers !! Very illustrative it has been. Use Pass at the moment, and the only thing that regrets is that when you had the XS 300 you have not used them with the pre also XS, there you could have extracted 100% of the potential of the same! I had the XP 30 a few years ago and currently use the XS, the improvement was formidable, I have them with Wilson Sasha 2, power XA 160.8 Esoteric K 01 X limited Edition source and clock G 01X, Shunyata Triton V2 filter, Transparent REF XL cables and Opus, plus Purist Canorus, I highly recommend the Stillpoint Ultra 5 and 6 as well. The subject of cables was always very controversial right here in the audiophile community, there are people who do not believe !! |
@WC I love your experiments and with your new room. If you are interested in trying new thing from smart designer check vinnie rossi. Every audio journalist swear by it. He build unique Preamps and lately amplifiers. https://www.vinnierossi.com/l2-preamplifier/ https://www.vinnierossi.com/l2-signature-monoblocks/ Someone tried it against Luxman integrated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iuQzJsQwI |