My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I thought the 'power cable shootout' was a good way to take our minds off of the coronavirus crisis.....thank you WCSS!
On my computer the Audiomica #3 sounded the most detailed, had the longest reverberation time and (to me) sounded the brightest...then the AQ Dragon #2 followed by Odin1 #1. In fact #1 Odin1 sounded a little rolled off on the top end (over my computer). I was perplexed to hear the OP say that Odin1 was sometimes too bright for his system and felt the need to tame the sound with Cardas IC's.
The takeaway for me is I don't think you can really hear what's going on through computer speakers over the internet....A couple of weeks ago I decided to record (with my iphone XS) one of my favorite demo songs through my system. I immediately transferred it to my computer and listened. The sound was so different, not even close....of course. It's a fun exercise, but not to be taken too seriously.
BTW my cables are all Odin1 with the exception of speaker cables and USB which are both Valhalla2. My computer is a MacBook Air.
rsf507698 posts03-18-2020 1:26pm@chazzy you stated " Dragon was by far the brightest in "my" system. Odin the least. Audiomica in between both.
What’s your full system and does your amp(s) also require the 20amp IEC? Have you listened to other cables and what’s your thought?
My system is in Audiogon. Click on my name... I use Tyr 2 as XLR’s and Clear Day double shotguns speaker cables. BAT VK 6200 which has a Neutral/slightly warm detailed sound and Modwright Oppo 205 class A tube. It’s pretty easy to hear that Dragon(#3) has the most treble energy. Surprisingly much more than the Odin on this song. Odins have a much more laid back presentation. Almost dark (at least on this song through my system) compared to Audio-mica (#2) and Dragon(#3). Vocals are much more recessed on Odin through my system vs AM and Dragon.
But like I mentioned, IMO this song is not good at all to use for comparison/poll purposes.
On my computer the Audiomica #3 sounded the most detailed, had the longest reverberation time and (to me) sounded the brightest...then the AQ Dragon #2 followed by Odin1 #1. In fact #1 Odin1 sounded a little rolled off on the top end (over my computer). I was perplexed to hear the OP say that Odin1 was sometimes too bright for his system and felt the need to tame the sound with Cardas IC's.
This is exactly what I hear. (although I think #2 is AM and #3 is Dragon)
Whoops....what I meant was #3 AQ Dragon sounded the most detailed with the longest decay time (and brightest) followed by #2 Audiomica then #1 Odin....at least on my computer.
Thanks again WCSS for your time putting this together.
ron17, On my iMac computer, I had the same observations as you, before WC revealed the identities of 1,2,3. But after it was revealed, with the bias, I found that the Odin was the most bright and detailed. But all 3 were very close, which proves that findings can be random and inconsistent when the actual differences are small in a poor resolution system like the computer. Also, blinded listening really has value with bias nearly eliminated. Even better would be double blinding, where a stranger sets up the tests, and both WC and we are doing it blinded. Still, for the huge price of some cables that don't show night and day differences from way less expensive cables, WC should just get the GTA speakers, which WILL make the night and day difference in the total system sound.
WC, I don't recall whether you ever had the Neolith speakers in your present room. Your present room is roughly the same size as your former room, so I believe you know enough already about how the Neoliths would sound. I believe the GTA does nearly everything you value better than anything else. The Neolith may have more natural and detailed midrange, however. The ML CLX is a better example of purity than the Neo, but doesn't have the dynamics of the GTA.
Last month, I was trying to convince myself I could live with the Hurricane HC on a power distributor (while using Dragons throughout the rest of my system) but in the end I decided there’s no way I can do it. I think the Hurricane HC is a very decent cable for the price, though. I think one could build a very good system around the Hurricane.
It’ll be interesting to hear how it interacts in WC’s system with the different cables adding variability.
I never actually listened to the powercords, because if I could differentiate between them through YouTube, the only thing I could conclude is how they sound in WC’s system. I had Dragon’s in my system several months ago. I had a friend listen to them with me and both of us thought they were too bright/ forward in my system. I think WC"s is constantly reinforcing what I’ve learned over the years. 1) cables/everything makes a difference, 2) there are no absolutes in Audio, only preferences. Building a system is about putting together different components to create one’s preferred sound. It’s okay if someone prefers a different powercord. Audio isn’t about right or wrong, but personal preference.
This is why it is important to work with dealers you trust or anyone who knows what they are doing through their own trials. The reality is that about 50% of the people who read this thread are people who are trying to learn or dissect the information that is useful to them. It really is no easy feat to put together a balanced system. Takes years , patience and hundreds of thousands of listening hours and this is something that most people don't have time or the money to do. That's why it is worth it to work with someone who you trust and who can steer you in the right direction.
WC, I should have added... I don't know how you continue the journey. Comparing components is very time consuming and comparing cables is such a tedious process.
Yep... Tell me about it. add to that a 9-5, kid and a wife... I'm pretty blessed that I've got the opportunity to do this and be able to share it with everyone out there. That said, you're correct in regards to it being a tedious process.
WC, Another thought about GTA and other panel speakers. Your difficulty with tolerating loud volumes of more accurate information, esp HF is most likely due to dynamic speakers. Compared to ribbons, planar magnetic and electrostatic drivers, dynamic drivers are more massive and nonlinear. It takes sledgehammer tricks to get a dynamic speaker to have the detail of the other designs. Getting that detail often leads to incoherence, lack of smoothness, some harshness of HF at high volumes. By contrast, all the electrostatics, ribbons and planars I have heard have smoothness along with detail, so are not fatiguing at high volumes. Rather than compromising on electronics and cables that soften the unpleasantness at high volumes, it would be better to get the GTA which is smooth and detailed, so you can enjoy your highest detail/liveliness Odin 1 and Valhalla cables at all volumes. Same goes for the DCS without the softening of the preamp, and the Gryphon amp.
BTW, Merrill W told me he thinks upsamplers are not appropriate. In his experience they soften the sound. Our reasoning is that a 44 kHz recording cannot have any more information than what is contained in that sampling rate. The upsamplers are not really sampling the greater information that would be present if the recording was done at the higher sampling rate--the upsamplers are merely throwing in extra data that has nothing to do with the music. This out of context data creates smear that people hear as smoothness.
Viber I see we have a broken record again, back to the same old same old. Your mind is closed, your decisions already made, and your biases quite clear. WC on the other hand openly admits his preferences, is willing to explore, and not once have I ever heard him pass judgment or try to convince anyone of his righteousness. Lest we forget audio is a hobby not defined with absolutes or mathematical equations it about musical enjoyment and there exist many paths to get there; we all hear differently and like different things. I for one have followed and enjoyed WC's quest but remember it is his journey which he has graciously chosen to share with us. Several of you should shut up, stop mouthing off, and just listen and enjoy the ride, who knows you might even learn something. WC thank you for starting this thread.
@shannere Thanks for following this thread. I appreciate it! To comment above, I love the explosive sound that Wilson has but there are times when I do wish I had panels again. Best would be for me to own both types of speakers but I can’t. I don’t have the space here. I do think a lot about panels and perhaps I will land another panel at some point. With this craziness going on with this virus , it is wiser to hang on to your money. That said , I did bite my tongue by saying that because I have another amplifier coming. It is time to go back in time and revisit amps from the past but in my room with all the components I currently own. Next week I will disclose what this amp is and I know a lot of you will be very excited !
viber I am not going to argue with you here it is not my thread. I can tell you I have played instruments since my preteens and been into stereo since 1969 so I not a novice. All I can say is I am glad you are not my physician; if I was to make a guess as to your speciality it would be proctology.
About 50% of population/ businesses will lose their jobs, have zero income. They will be bleeding money, and need to sell their crap.. If you have the cash, and a stable income / stash, now it’s the time (next few months). To quote Metallica, sad but true. Stay safe. Stay alive
I got stucked once on a muddy back road in Georgia.....but i found some sticks and rocks, put em under my tars and voila...I was unstucked! Lol and before you knew it I was plucking away again on my Stradivarius at the Atlanter sinfony orkester jest in dear nick of time for Baytovens second bowel movement. Lol
Lol. Thyname , you know a thing or two about the economy for sure...hide your stash right now then fish the market.. if you were planning to buy a car next year , you might want to buy one in the next few months because the interest rate is low and dealers will begin to choke to stay alive which means big opportunities for all of us. Give it another month and we will see serious deals that only those with money in their pocket will be able to capitalize on. Watch ....
shannere, Alright, you don't agree with my advice or don't comprehend it which was intended for WC and contains useful info that many people appreciate. If it is not useful for you, that's OK. But there is no need to be hostile towards me.
As a physician, I sometimes give useful advice to patients and friends that differ from standard practices. Of course, I don't insult them. If someone doesn't understand or disagrees with what I recommend, they don't get argumentative and insult me to my face. They are welcome to discuss their difference of opinion, which gives me an opportunity to clarify and elaborate further. Often they come back and say my advice was helpful, and that no other physician contributed so much to their health. For those patients that don't follow my advice, some of them come back with the same problems, and I gently remind them that if they follow my advice, they will feel better. I ask them to come back a month later, so if they are not better, I can try to think of other treatments that might work out better.
This analogy with the audiophile quest is obvious. Unfortunately, the quest for great health and recovery from serious illness is much more difficult as we all know. Be well.
Hi there, Thanks for the note. We are thankful to be doing fine. I hope everyone else is doing fine. Sorry for the delay but I will be uploading a video tonight.
Agree very little difference. It's my opinion that those speaker cables are choking the sound. Heard them before and they are just ok. Where's those Audiomica SC? So much better and musical. Get them back!
@whitecamaross I had a problem when trying to copy it over to a 4TB drive. I had to send the drive back to Western Digital In Calexico, California. and I thought Calexico was only the name of a band or group. I have one of there albums. Bear with me, it will come.
@rsf507 You could be right. I just didn't want to have any odin at all so perhaps some of you can go back to my older videos and compare the sound with all Odin or no Odin at all....
Thanks for the latest WC. Glad to hear you are doing well. I wasn’t necessarily interested in this particular shootout but I’m really glad to have watched the video as you made a number of interesting observations about system synergy etc outside the scope of the shootout. Thanks for that.
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