WC,
We know all the Merrill stuff has been on loan from your dealer buddy. The Christine vs Boulder 2010 would be an informative comparison between 2 companies with a common goal of neutrality to see who does it better. The Pass preamp will most likely share the same character as all the Pass amps, which is warmth in various degrees. I don't think you will learn much from the Pass preamp mated to the amp. I have a hunch that if the Christine + 118 is too forward and aggressive for you, the 2010 + 118 might tone down the highs, especially since you said the ref 6 is brighter than the 2010. If you are considering a more detailed, neutral sound, then probable best bets are Christine or 2010 + 118, warmer would be Christine or 2010 + XS300 or Pass preamp + 118, and warmest would be Pass preamp + XS300. All possibilities to be settled by your trials, of course.
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WC
The Wilson Alexia 2 speakers are wonderful but I feel the Focal speakers you currently have are significantly more musical. The tweeter is simply better. Both have excellent bass, dynamics, sound staging, etc., but the Focal Utopias have that great tweeter. And I’m a Wilson owner!
All of the Magico speakers click the boxes of what’s important in a state of the art speaker, however, when I listen to them, I become bored. They’re just not fun to listen to in my opinion. They’re very accurate and transparent and do all the hifi things correctly, but in the words of Ivor (Linn), they don’t carry the tune.
I have read every post from the beginning of this thread. Sometimes I think you go backwards in your search just for the sake of trying something new. I’m also amazed how many times you have repurchased the same component when just a few months earlier determined it wasn’t for you. In this case, keep the Focals because you are definitely not going to like the Wilsons or Magicos any better.
Think of all the money I just saved you. Now sell off all the other things you have laying around unused and buy your wife something nice for Christmas. God knows she deserves it.
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Agreed with briano, the Focals Evo will not be bettered as they are most probably the best of their range. |
Hi guys ,
Thanks for the input. I think my main pain point is that the level of amplification and preamplification that I have is above my current focals. Some have said to me in person that they feel my focals are the bottle neck at this point and they simply don't allow me to hear the full potential of my front end. I've pretty much strapped twin turbos and a v12 but my current tires are not mickey Thompson's slicks so I'm hauling ass and then my tires break loose when the boost kicks in. Thats pretty much the analogy here. Of course I've questioned if doing a bigger more expensive speaker such as the alexx and downgrade my preamp and amps to something like a luxman 900u amp and preamp would yield better results here.
I've heard tons of people comment on mágicos and pretty much end up with the same feeling which is they lack the ability to engage the listener. However , ive been told the magico m series is not the same as the cheaper lines. I can't comment because I haven't heard it. |
How could the Alexx be so much better than the Focals Evo...
How could you be that much impressed by the Alexx when you already have experienced ML Neoliths...
At that level of speaker, you hit the biggest diminishing return. |
I haven't heard them with my own music so I can't comment. That said I don't expect the Evo to come nowhere close to the alexx since those are to compete with the Stella and not the small Scala. |
My dealer has Alexx playing almost constantly with ARC Ref 160m and it sounds fantastic. I for one hope you go that route with the big Wilsons. Plus, come on, on this journey it is about time that you had a six-figure component, right?? : ) |
So as I sit here listening to the xs300s, boulder 2010, focal scala evo and esoteric k1 I can say that NO OTHER AMPLIFIER I've owned morphs as much as this xs300. I mean, they take hours and I mean HOURS of playtime to really shine. It is such a different feeling after 5-6 hours that it almost feels as if someone changed out the amps. From a cold start , they don't really WOW you per say. They would wow the person that's not heard an amp of this tier group but not someone who's used to hearing amps of this caliber. The wow factor comes waaay later which is somewhat odd for me because I don't know why they take so long to start singing. |
@whitecamaross
I have a BAT SS amp, and I can hear clear differences in musicality and the ability to capture fine details in music at about 90 minutes, 4 hours and 24 hours. I've found that it only begins to really sing and sound it's absolute best somewhere between 3-4 days of 24/7 powered on. |
WC,
I know you want to try other speakers you can hear locally before you go for the GTA. However, all these dynamic speakers are a mixed bag compared to rising up to the highest level of purity with good dynamics with the GTA. Plus, the GTA is much cheaper than any of these other choices. You could just start with the planar/ribbon towers without the extra sub towers.
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Ok so here's an update :
Pass labs xp30 will be delivered this Friday and a Wilson speaker is almost about to make an entrance into my room this week if all goes well.
Will i prefer it over my focal ? Stay tuned... this weekend will be epic ! |
Sounds like awesome for you to experience and fun for us to hear the outcome!
Dave
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If you are not a believer of biwiring speakers please speak up. I will post my thoughts on this soon. |
The problem with bi-wiring is it requires two sets of wires. Its not that its bad or doesn't work. But for what you spent on two sets of wires you could have bought one much better. In other words bi-wiring is an improvement, but not enough to make up for having to buy twice.
I mean think about it. If bi-wiring were so much better then everyone would be in on it. If it was worth twice the wire then for sure it would be worth twice the speaker binding posts. All but the cheapest speakers would come equipped for bi-wiring.
In other words its not a question of belief. Its a question of reality.
I'll stick with reality, thanks. |
If you were using the Focal jumpers, then yes bi wiring with Nordost Odin or WW top cables will make a nice difference. ( Focal stock jumpers are the weakest link of your cable loom). This is why you are experiencing better sound when they are out of the system ( bi wiring).
If using Nordost Odin or WW top JUMPERS , then you don’t need bi wiring.
UPGRADE YOUR JUMPERS, and use single wiring with the best cables available , as millercarbon is suggesting.
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I have bi-wired in the past and it was always better. It is just a matter of how much better and it depends on the wires and amps as to how much the improvement is .
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I tried biwiring today using Merrill cables on the lows and nordost odin 1 on the highs and mids and there was an improvement without a doubt. I then replaced the jumpers with Wireworld silver jumpers and it still sounded better than using factory copper jumpers the speakers come with. That said, yes the mismatch of Merrill on the lows and Odin on the highs/mids was still superior than using ww jumpers with Odin 1. I feel like there is far better imaging and the separation is greater. It feels as if the speakers got larger too. I guess this was the main change they did on the scala evos which you couldn’t do on tbe previous version. That said, I do believe biwiring is very dependent on the quality of the speakers. Some speakers just don’t improve much and others certainly do.
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Not a majority opinion, but I think the DAW is better than the Alexx. Much more coherent without overblown bass. No, it doesn’t scale as big of course.
But this whole amp exercise is relatively pointless to draw conclusions with different speakers every 6 months. You are kinda chasing your tail.
Ps. Pass isn’t great on Wilson
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I’m not looking to change speakers every six months. I held on to the neoliths for more than a year and the exercise I’m trying to do is to put a Wilson in my new current room to see how it does against my focal. I’m all about doing my own thing in my own space so that I don’t have to formulate conclusions based on magazine reviews but rather my own. I want to be able to see what Wilson does better or worse than focal and since this has always been a touchy subject since there are focal and Wilson lovers all over. I want to not be biased and choose whichever speaker I feel I can connect better with and which one can make my mind transport back in time as I listen to music.
Anyhow , the speaker I am bringing in is the Alexia 1. Why?
1. I’ve never had it
2. It cost me right around what I wanted to spend .
3. It is almost the same dimensions as the Scala
4. I would like to try the speaker adjustments to see how well I can dial it in
5. I want to hear Wilson with the crazy front end I have now as opposed to what I had when I owned the sasha 2
I am clear on the fact that the Alexia 1 is an older design and that it is hard as hell to drive but the 600 lbs of metal I have on the floor creating 600 watts of class a into 4 ohms won’t even sweat pushing those speakers. I also don’t feel like the Alexia 2 would be a fair comparison because it is 58k vs 40k that the Scala Evo costs. Sure , the Sasha Daw could have been interesting but I simply wasn’t going to spend 30k on that speaker at this time since it is relatively new. I’ll need to wait until next year for that. |
Thats funny WC, dial them in. you haven't really dialed in any of your speakers correctly by the pictures you have posted.
Do yourself a big favor at the level you're at ' so you always state and hire a professional to dial in your speakers.
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Get Nordost Odin jumpers. Case closed.
WW jumpers still the weak link. That is why bi wiring still sound better right now.
Biwing with 2 different brands of cables is far from being an optimal solution. Nordost Odin speaker cables will always be faster than other brands. It is their force, why the brand sound so good and fast. |
So what if the Alexia 1 is better than the Focal, or the other way around. The GTA at about $20K will beat any dynamic speaker for clarity, naturalness and compete in dynamic SPL's. I am not shilling for faxer, just telling it like it is.
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You are shilling for Faxer, and between two of you I'm sick of hearing about GTA, no offense to the product, as I've never heard it. I'm sure it's great, but I think WC is in better position to know what he wants than you are.
The funny thing is that WC has about 1000x more audio equipment experience than you do and yet you tell him what to do. Luckily, he mostly ignores you, from Mytek to Rane to GTA to zip cords to ....
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20k GTA panels + a pair of Rel Subs. That would be my pick also.
Imagine no Viber6 on this thread. It would lack something for sure. All opinions are welcome, even contested ones, thats makes for the the whole richness of this thread. |
The issue I see is that Viber6 just speculates about gear without ANY firsthand experience with said gear. It's hard enough to have heard the gear then speculate about it in someone else's system. Just my thoughts.
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We got to imagine it during his too-short European vacation and it was by far the best the thread ever was. I guess on a day-to-day basis it maybe isn’t overwhelming but try binge-reading from beginning as many newcomers do and it is mind-numbing.
It’s statements like this in his just above post "The GTA at about $20K will beat any dynamic speaker for clarity, naturalness and compete in dynamic SPL’s" that are just ridiculous and over the top, considering he admits he hasn’t owned or even heard many of the speakers/components he pontificates upon with a dogmatic and monochromatic focus.
God I hope my mention of Rane and zip cords doesn’t bring those beauties to front-of-mind, tip-of-fingers, ... |
I still see his opinion welcome here. If his colorful statements are so excruciating for you guys, then just get a life and be done following the thread. Simple easy solution.
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i admire the passion you all have which is clearly seen by your strong opinions on different components.
That said, i want to be clear that i decided to choose wilson because of the reasons i stated above. The size factor is something that i keep in the back of my mind for the time being, but maybe one day i decide to not care and bring a larger speaker here, but i am not prepared to do that right now.
I have experience with the Sasha 2, but i've always wanted to hear the Alexia EVEN THOUGH it is old news for many. Long story short, the numbers were right for me, it was a local deal, pain free transaction, and i get to FINALLY compare Wilson vs Focal in my home and with the same gear. Why not do it? how many people here can say they have a Wilson and a Focal Utopia to play with at the same time and under their roof?
This will give me greater clarity as to WHICH DNA i prefer from the 2 speakers. Both speakers are dynamic as hell; both are about the same size; one is warmer sounding than the other; both are well respected brands. i am here to have fun EVEN THOUGH at times i might go in a different direction, that is part of the journey.
Right now, i am not looking to bring anymore speakers because as of tomorrow i will have the C4 Platinum Dynaudios, Focal Scala Evo and now Wilson Alexia 1. i can't fit anything else in here so that will be it when it comes to speakers until i am able to move something else.
Anyhow, there is an opportunity for a Boulder 2060 which i am quite interested in bringing back to see how it sounds with the 2010 preamp. |
Maybe I’
m wrong, but Sasha 2 and DAW are known to sound better than the Alexia 1...
Oh well, you will know you ´ve tried it vs the Focals.
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techno__dude13 posts12-05-2019 9:17a
Imagine no Viber6 on this thread. We do. There'd be another 10-20 + active participants. |
@whitecamaross
One of my local dealers has 4 listening areas.
Sasha, Sabrina, Alexia and Alexandria.
Cables are Nordost from Frey 2 to odin 2.
AR, Luxman and DAugustino power everything.
The Alexandria with the Odins, Momentum and Momentum/AR10 is so transparent with an incredible soundstage. And so dynamic... Wow
Good luck with the Wilsons.
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I don’t care if they would be a thousand more participants, the thread would not be the same without him. Sorry WC, THEY STARTED the hating speach AGAIN...I guess they catch a desease when they read about him... They must like it because they keep returning...
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It's super easy just to scroll past someone's post, if you don't like their posts. Nothing is forcing anyone to read someones' posts. For those that are complaining, just keep scrolling.
If you can't help yourself and you have to read those posts, then don't complain. Or, if you think the post is against forum rules, then contact Audiogon. If it's not against forum rules, then move on.
WC started this thread, so I'm sure if he has any issues with posts, he will deal with it.
For me, I would much rather read those posts than to read the whining. Of course, I'll take my own advice going forward and just scroll past the whining posts :-)
Dave
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I am sorry that several people here refuse to recognize that lifelong musical experience is worth more than thousands of trials of equipment most of which don't have any resemblance to live unamplified music. The laws of physics are more applicable than anyone's wishful thinking. Dynamic drivers are inherently massive and slower than ribbon/planar/electrostatic drivers. The most brilliant designers cannot make handicapped dynamic drivers perform with the clarity, coherence and naturalness of these low mass drivers. One does not need to listen to thousands of dynamic speakers to know this. I've heard my share in my lifetime. Recently I heard more recent designs like the Magico A3. Not bad, but nothing new to serve as an exception to my previous experience which is consistent with the laws of physics.
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techno__dude15 posts12-05-2019 1:23pmI don’t care if they would be a thousand more participants, the thread would not be the same without him. Sorry WC, THEY STARTED the hating speach AGAIN...I guess they catch a desease when they read about him... They must like it because they keep returning... The thread would be much more readable AND enjoyable without him or you fake tech no dude... 😉 |
Chazzzzy007 totally agree. This site’s forums would be much more enjoyable if you could simply block a user so that you no longer see their posts. This thread would also be about 1/3 it’s current length. One can dream...
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Ignore me if you want, but you lose by spending big money for poorer real performance--the goal of high fidelity to the sound of unamplified instruments and voices. The hate speech is entirely from my detractors. Any careful reader will agree. Actually, the few classical music lovers with real knowledge have mostly left this thread. Most of my posts are on other threads where I am respected.
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Actually I have seen some of your posts on other threads and you receive the same blowback that you do in this thread. If you want I would be more than happy to copy/paste other people's thoughts on Your opinions from other threads which will delight the majority of people here. Why do you need to constantly bring up the subject of money being spent?? Is your goal in this hobby to get the best experience for the cheapest amount?? You must be the most unsuccessful doctor on the face of the planet to be such a miser. I find life MUCH more enjoyable when I dont feel the need to compare Gas, Food, Stereo, etc prices. Your taking years off your life being a Shylock...which I guess is beneficial to the rest of us eventually. |
This thread (I mean no disrespect to OP, it’s not his fault, rather the nature of the forum thing) has a very poor SNR, about 6 dB.
Pretty sure we would all agree a very poor amplifier by nominal standards; but similar to some actual amps, the distortion in this thread can sometimes be pleasing, and sometimes not;
Happy Friday
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WC
Downgrading your front end and/or electronics to purchase a better (more expensive) speaker makes zero sense unless there is a compatibility problem. Your analogy of too much horsepower for a particular car does not apply here. A speaker can only reproduce the signal it’s sent. If any part of the signal is compromised, the speaker can’t fix or replace it. I have heard many inexpensive speakers hooked up to very expensive electronics and it’s shocking how much better those speakers sound than when hooked up to lesser electronics. I’m certainly not advocating you buy lesser speakers, but I am definitely recommending you don’t degrade your electronics. If you have to sell your favorite amps to purchase a more expensive set of speakers, you are using flawed logic. In the past you have sold off expensive components that you really liked (Constellation) to purchase something else that you needed the money for. Why not sell some/most of the other things you have and keep the pieces that you most like? For instance, why do you still have the C4’s? We both know they’re not the speakers for you. Maybe it would help you to keep your Pass amps? (I said help, not allow).
Most people that have been in this game a long time know that the first thing you do is pick the speaker you like the best. Then you find the amp that works the best with that speaker going backwards to the pre and then your source components. Finally you tune the system to your liking with wires and power cords. I will leave out the room, dsp, conditioning, etc. for now as that is a whole separate conversation. It seems to me that you spend a lot of time trying to find a speaker that works well with your amp of the week only to ultimately reject that amp and speaker combination and move in an entirely different direction with a different amp and start the speaker auditioning all over again. I really don’t understand your comparisons of wires and power cords with amps and speakers your not going to own in a month.
While I don’t understand this journey of yours, it’s not like it hasn’t been an interesting read. Your craziness has been entertaining and I will likely continue to follow it. What I would like to know is this. Is this about ultimately finding your dream system or continuing to explore as many components as possible? I think this would help me and others to better understand what your thinking and where your heading. Thanks for the ride. |
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I think it’s now more about the journey. But still , WC is an audiophile like us, so deepdown he is always searching for the best speakers and front ends. |
@chazzzy007
@briano
"Downgrading your front end and/or electronics to purchase a better (more expensive) speaker makes zero sense unless there is a compatibility problem. Your analogy of too much horsepower for a particular car does not apply here. A speaker can only reproduce the signal it’s sent. If any part of the signal is compromised, the speaker can’t fix or replace it. I have heard many inexpensive speakers hooked up to very expensive electronics and it’s shocking how much better those speakers sound than when hooked up to lesser electronics."
I fully agree here.
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Ok guys I’ve uploaded pictures of the Alexia and xp30. Take a look at how close in size both speakers are.
Tomorrow I will be having the big shootout around 2pm. I have several friends coming to help to try to dial in each speaker at a time so we can listen critically.
For now , all I can say is that the Alexia is no slouch by any means. Monstrous soundstage even in the crappy position where I have them on the pictures so I expect them to be ready to battle tomorrow. I will give a small update with my impressions later tonight. Stay tuned. |
whitecamaross OP1,981 posts12-06-2019 12:40pmFor now , all I can say is that the Alexia is no slouch by any means. Monstrous soundstage even in the crappy position where I have them on the pictures so I expect them to be ready to battle tomorrow.
Whenever I go listen to the Wilsons near me, the first thing that hits me is the size of the sound-stage and then the dynamic impact of the speakers. Truly impressive. |
I commend you on your epic adventure but those massive speakers deserve to be professionally installed.....you can always deviate from that to tweak to your liking but at least you would have Wilson recommended setup to start.
The interaction of equipment and the room is so integral why wonder if you got it right...
I am sure will sound excellent either way but if you want pedal to metal... |
The Focals are so much more sexy.
The Wilsons, darn, these are down my list in the beauty department.
The only ones that would enter my room are the Sabrinas.
Looking forward to read about the shootout between them. And also the preamps , Boulder vs Pass XP30. |
I have a Wilson dealer coming out tomorrow at 10am to set them up. We will see what will happen.
I briefly tried the focals again just now and they are terrific speakers hands down. They have an incredible amount of air and detail along with deep super tight bass.
I also wanted to say that I suspect the nordost odin 1 speaker cable might not be for this Wilson. It gets the mids and highs to totally burst out of the speaker but the Alexias don't need help in this department. They already do that on their own. Anyhow I will keep playing around tonight and report back. |
