My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Mainly remember this Front Speakers • Sure, you will have a center-channel speaker, but don’t use this as an excuse to put the left and right speakers 15 feet apart. To provide the best combination of stereo spread, imaging precision, and coherence with the picture, a good rule of thumb is to position the left and right front speakers so that the distance between the two speakers is equal to or preferably a little less than the distance from each speaker to the listener. For instance, if your speakers are 7 feet apart, a distance of 8 to 9 feet from each speaker to the listener is excellent. You should avoid setting the speakers farther apart than the distance from each speaker to the listening position. Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/advicefromtheexperts/speakers_where_do_i_put_them#b7xspJXLTV56wkww.99
IMO, I would hang your center channel under the tv, and use a lower profile rack, similar to what i have done , but maybe with amp stands on each side of the rack ,for monoblocks.. As long as the front L and R speakers are at least in front of the equipment stand (as much as possible), it should not adversely affect the sound . If you use a Center channel stand on the floor , then you are forced to put the equipment off to the side or somewhere out of the way.
+1 Ricred1, this is how my HT is setup. I use a Marantz SR5013 HT receiver which has 7.2 preamp outputs. The stereo analog out of the Marantz goes into the analog input of my Benchmark DAC3 HGC analog input feeding my 2 channel stereo system. Best of both worlds.
Thanks greyhound. I plan to use the big Martin Logan center which doesn’t mount. It’s meant to be used on the floor. As far as amps for the surround channels, I think class d will be best because it won’t take a huge amount of space. Of course I want to use a huge class ab amp but given my situation I think class d will fit better so that I’m not forced to buy a deep rack.
WC, I do use a ATI AT523NC 3-channel amplifier with a Marantz AV-7002 mkii, because I only have 5.1 surround sound when using HT. I submit ATI multi-channel Class D amps offer excellent sound and outstanding value. It was an obvious step-up in sound quality over the Marantz HT receiver and Yamaha 3-channel amplifier it replaced.
2 separate systems (HT and 2 Channel) is the way to go. You want to be able to have the Center Channel up on the wall also. You can have something like Martin Logan XT35s on wall mounts angling down in the front also. Marantz is the go to for home theater for preamp. Leave the systems separate. Real high end 2 channel sound should sit just the way it's supposed to. And you can change out the equipment with ease. All Home Theater speakers should be on wall mounts angled down above the Neoliths.
Have you seen the difference of a Sony 85" LCD over a a projector screen? It's a no brainer to have the LCDs brightness and clarity.
Mixing the 2 systems is a big mistake in my book. You want your high end stuff to just play 2 channel, all by itself. Have that system set up first and dialed.
Then you can get your front L/R and center channel speakers for HT dialed. With 2 rows of recliners, this setup will work wonders. If you want floor standing L/R speakers for HT, put them outside of the Neoliths. I have setup so many systems like you want. Doing it the other way is not going to give you the HT results. JL subs are also good for HT.
This was mentioned before by another poster and I agree. I believe the biggest problem with a 2 channel audio / home theater combination, is when you are listening to the 2 channel music system, the other multi channel speakers are also playing ( excited, was the term used ). And, it becomes worse when you crank the 2 channels louder. It is unfortunately very audible, and ime, masks much of the " details " that one spends on higher end gear. Admittedly, the customers I have worked with, typically had the monies to have 2 dedicated areas, 1 each for 2 channel and home theater. A good buddy of mine, who still designs systems for the wealthy in the NY, NJ and CT areas, says that the people today he works with, all want it all together, as WC is doing, but the greater emphasis is now on automation, and remote capabilities throughout the home. 1 button operation, easy peasy. He is seeing less and less of the 2 channel diehards, but yet, people are still spending big bucks on all of the gear. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel, "I believe the biggest problem with a 2 channel audio / home theater combination, is when you are listening to the 2 channel music system, the other multi channel speakers are also playing." If your 2-channel preamp has HT bypass that isn't a true statement. The HT components are off and your only listening to 2-channel.
ricred1, I am talking about the " acoustic pressure " in the room that the other speakers are reacting to ( they are being " excited " ). When you are playing your 2 channel system, very lightly, place the tip of your finger on one of the low frequency drivers of a surround speaker, or your center speaker, as you will feel it vibrate. This is acoustics, my friend, as I know the speakers are not being driven by an amp at this time. Duh.....Sorry to respond this way, but I suppose you did not understand the term " excite ".
mrdecibel, I actually have 2-channel with HT. My center speaker and rear speakers don't vibrate or get "excited" at all. As far as your Duh comment, no need to be sorry, I don't get excited by someone that doesn't know me typing comments trying to insult me.
WC, I almost bought the ATI class D amps. I was tempted by the higher power bridged versions, but ATI told me that the bridged 54 series versions are not comfortable with low impedance loads, and paradoxically the lower power 52 series versions might put out more power into low impedances. I passed on them also because I read Kal Rubinson's report in Stereophile that they were warmer than his reference amp of the time, the class D Classe sigma monos. As you know, I hate any euphonics. The same warning about bridged amps and low impedances applies to many amps. Benchmark and Bryston told me the same thing. All that said, for multichannel, ATI is one of the best affordable bets, especially for non-electrostatic speakers. As you said years ago, get a 2 channel plus 3 channel instead of a 5 channel. You can see in the ATI specs that the power goes down in too many channels on 1 chassis because of the shared power supply.
ricred, my Duh comment was to let you know, I know the speakers were not being driven by amplification during discreet 2 channel listening. If your center and surround speakers are not " acoustically " getting excited, when listening to 2 channel music, 1 of 2 things are happening. ( 1 ), you are playing your 2 channel system at a very low level, or ( 2 ), you are in denial. A test for you would be, to take your center speaker, face it upwards, sprinkle a very small amount of salt on a low frequency driver, and, at your normal 2 channel listening level, see if the salt starts bouncing around on the driver. If it doesn’t, your volume level is very low, and yes, it is quite possible, the other speakers are not exhibiting excitement. But if the salt dances, well, you know. But in the case of WC, and his preferred volume levels, I would have no doubt that the center and surrounds would be excited, by the spl in the room. I will not continue to argue this point, and I was not trying to insult you. But, we both seem to be know it alls, and are batting heads, which is quite common here. YMMV....Enjoy ! MrD
MrD, So, you're right, DUH... your comments,"the other multi channel speakers are also playing ( excited, was the term used )" were taken literally. Sorry for the confusion. At low to medium levels they don't get excited. When I turn it up, as I often do, you are correct that both my center and rear channels get excited. As a matter of fact, the center channel can slightly smear the image. Awhile ago I read that simply covering the center channel with a regular or acoustic blanket greatly reduces and/or eliminates the excitement. I simply cover my center speaker when I'm doing critical listening to eliminate the smearing and it really works.
MrD is right. The other speakers can act as passive radiators. But sometimes that is good in certain rooms. Makes kind of like a bass trap or it can rid of reflections. It's a mixed bag. It doesn't seem to hurt the imaging in my Martin Loogan Montis. I have a JBL Professional series system back about 12" in between the Montis.
Pass thru systems with integration of HT and Stereo lose sound quality. You are kind of fine doing it. But that last little bit of resolution could be taken away.
@ricred1, The 4K projector system you mentioned is something I haven't seen. I don't get out anymore, since moving, so places to see projection systems are not near me. I assume that you can't have the curtains drawn open when playing it. That's the deal breaker for me.
For the love of God, put the Neoliths on the short wall, and have the length of 22ft for your listening. You do not want bounce back from the back wall. I have my system in a 19X30 space now. It took 25 years for me to get a proper room again. I had the type of rooms before that were too wide where I placed my speakers. Or I got married with 2 kids and 2 channel went bye bye.
ricred, all good my friend. This is my main concern with WC. At the level of equipment he is spending money on, as bigd just indicated, this excite phenomenon can detract a bit of details, which are the reasons to spend this much money to begin with. This is all I am saying. And as someone who likes to turn it up much of the time ( me ), I need 2 separate systems. My main, primary interest, is always 2 channel music. I was part of a very high end HT / 2 channel system design, and saw, executed in a large private home in Connecticut ( it was a famous person who was not there at the time ), some amazing things. All Pro JBL. Stacked towers, monster subs, 2 large monitors as a center channel, on a motorized shelf, lowering automatically into a special enclosure, and the sides and rears were on mechanical platforms, that would turn 180 degrees, and become enclosed and flush with the walls, all with a push of a button or 2. This theater was huge. Seating for a dozen or more people. All Krell electronics. A motorized screen, and very elaborate curtains, chairs, furnishings, etc. I was there for the 2 channel part. And, there was another, dedicated 2 channel listening room I was part of, a year earlier. Oh, another room on this level, had a Grand piano, with a stage. And downstairs, a very elaborate recording studio, a 4 lane bowling alley, a Disco, and an in ground pool. No expense was overlooked. It was quite an estate. To see up close, how the rich and famous lived, and, to be a little, tiny, part of it’s entertainment design. Enjoy ! MrD.
I thought I read that WC was going to have another set of front speakers, for the HT part, flanking the Neos ? WC will need to have the patience, to cover all of these extra speakers when listening to 2 channel music, as you are doing with your center, ricred1. Enjoy ! MrD.
WC, Aside from what I said above, for your HT needs, I think the ATI amps would be a great choice, especially for the money, in this less critical situation. Somewhat more expensive, my Mytek Brooklyn Amp is a tiny chassis and probably sonically competitive with any reasonably priced class D. You can try it from Music Direct, also in your present dedicated stereo. Since you like the Classe amp 2, you will probably find the Mytek to be at least as good, which is impressive. It will challenge any amp you have ever heard for clarity and neutrality without coldness or sterility. You could get 2 of these for $5k retail for 4 channels. Very compact with great sound you would like in either dedicated stereo or HT.
I currently own the Krell kav500, Classe amp2 And anthem p5 available for surround duty... that’s 12 channels. That said, I’ve thought about the possibility of using 3 inwall speakers behind the screen so that my neoliths don’t get used at all for movies. This way the entire room will have inwalls for movies and just the neoltihs for surrounds. There won’t even Be a center channel speaker on the floor at all since it will be behind the screen.
`if the other speakers in the room are stats will they get excited ? right now I have one pair of Adam Audio tensor Gamma , One pair of meadowlark Heron I, one pair Paradigm Signature 4 , One pair Meadowlark Osprey , one pair of King Sound King speakers in the same room. Sounds damn good even with all these speakers in the room . Think some are getting super neurotic here ?
MrD, for sure the MC452 is a great amp. Matching is important, I did a lot of A/B testing and realized that the MC452 just made string instruments sound unrealistic paired with my ML 11As. The MLs are already on the warm side, then adding the MC452, also warm, didn't make a good match for certain types of music especially classical and acoustic guitar. I compared it with the directly coupled MC7016 multichannel amp and thought the sound signature worked better with the 11As. I would really like to try out the the MC2301s at some point.
WC, one of the things I noticed when I demoed the m900u is that it combines clarity and resolution with a touch of tube warmth. Since you get the amazing resolution, you get the lower level listening clarity as well.
I am not sure if it was mentioned but ATI manufactures the multichannel amps for Monoprice Monith series. They are not Class D but come at a really great price point.
WC, I am not familiar with many of the inwall speakers available, but a dream inwall speaker pair would be from Wisdom Audio. Several years ago I heard a tall but not the tallest Sage model. These are SOTA ribbon hybrids, narrower than even the GT Audio, but much more expensive. Being efficient you don’t need much power. And the narrow GT ribbons would also be a great choice. Near the front wall, their bass would be enhanced, so you don't need the separate woofer tower. Alternatively, for the front L/R speakers, you could use your Persona 3F near the wall. The bass will be more prominent near the wall, which you might find appropriate for dramatic movie sound effects. What other 10 speakers are you considering? Inwall is a good idea to avoid clutter which would compromise your Neo stereo in the same room.
Hi WC, regarding using the long or short wall, as was mentioned first by psnyder149, the difference is not worth bothering with. The room modes will develop regardless so use the wall most convenient.
Unused speakers standing idle will influence the sound, their effect being less noticeable in rooms with little or no room treatment because the sound is too lively. With proper acoustic treatment the idle speaker’s influence is noticeable. What happens is room pressure drives the passive speaker cones and their back-EMF charges the crossovers which indiscriminately re-release energy out of time and phase causing confusion/congestion. To find out how much the effect is, short out the speaker terminals on any unused speakers which will damp cone movement. Oh and just because your fingers can't detect a cone vibrating at low volume your ears can. This is not huge and you can live with it.
I see some, well intentioned I’m sure, recommend EQ. Neither Rane nor RoomPerfect can sort out a bad room. A bad room is one which has no bass traps, absorption panels or diffusers resulting in sound taking a long time to decay. The industry standard is 60dB known as T60. Different frequencies will decay at different rates so lets say you have 80Hz and 150Hz and 400Hz etc. etc. with long delay time and some frequencies with peaks and nulls, all EQ can do is to attenuate the peaks and boost the nulls BUT it can not reduce the echo, it is still there only lower in amplitude.
Now take a null, that music has been cancelled out and is missing or a partial null which EQ tries to boost but
nulls can be around 20dB deep. This is mostly at low freq. and few amps have that amount of reserve power. You see the folly. However if the room is treated and all freqs. fall within the required decay time and there is no modal peaks or nulls then yes EQ can correct for uneven response. I do not believe any of your gear has response anomalies!
Viber6 said because you have a bunch of chairs less treatment is needed? which is now guesswork. This is simply a case of measuring the room, easy to do, and you will know what to do. I can go on at length but will bore everyone. Let me refer you to a post of mine at the bottom of page 107 and another on page 108 about ninth down
I just plugged in the Audioquest dragon hc powercords in the constellation Monos and my initial impression will come soon. These are 9,000 dollar powercords by the way. I borrowed these to see what they do so I’ll keep you all informed!
lemonhaze, This makes sense. My main objection to many big reclining chairs is that the sound field is blocked so there is a compromise in clarity and openness. This is less true of the very high Neo panels and the tall Wisdom Audio ribbons.
WC, Any way you look at it, 1 room serving double duty will significantly compromise the performance of your stereo, which you have worked so hard to achieve. In my apartment, alone, I live with the reality of not playing loud music past 11 PM. At later hours, I can still play music at 60 dB with peaks at 80 that has limited bass. Living in your house with your family, it is much the same situation. You have to decide whether having your isolation freedom in the garage will be worth the compromise in sound quality for stereo. A special consideration is the purity of sound from the Wisdom Audio Sage inwall ribbons, which most likely outperform the Neo above 300 Hz. The Wisdom would be great for HT as well as stereo. You should go hear them at an upper echelon HT Wisdom dealer. I heard them at a place called Enhanced Home, in Port Chester, NY. When I arrived at the appointment, they gave me a brochure made especially for me with various Wisdom systems and electronics. This is the kind of treatment you would get when you have a reservation in a 5 star restaurant or Swiss Alps spa for the rich oil sheiks/diplomats.
I plan to give home theater a try. If my 2 channel sounds WORSE than what it does right now then I’ll undo my home theater. I just CAN NOT SEE WHY my set up would sound worse than in my current room even with a screen and surround speakers. I can’t imagine that being the case.
We run our stereo / theater system - optimized for stereo. Yes, home theater is slightly compromised but not our stereo. It took a bit of planning and quite a bit of experimenting to optimize our stereo set up. Speakers not in use acting like passive radiators - makes a good case in theory and sounds reasonable but emperacle / actual use demonstrates otherwise. System set up and room acoustics are critical to get the best performance from a quality components.
Wc, and I have to say this. So sorry, in advance. You are trying out 9K worth of 2 power cords, but you would not consider building a new home, so everyone can be happy. I do not get it buddy.
tjassoc, not believing in the passive radiator thing, eh. Try what I described with your center channel, and a bit of salt. If the salt bounces, it is being demonstrated.
WC, if your room treatment is properly done then your stereo system will sound way way better even if you install your home theater. The big screen and additional speakers will have a small effect but the huge improvement from good acoustics will amaze you. If you get it right you are in for a treat. It will do more for your sound than any power cord.
You are rewarded with great audio turning into an awesome musical performance. Gone is the overlong decay across the full frequency spectrum revealing detail and structure you did not know was there. The bass traps will be smoothing out the room response , and where you had nulls before you will now be hearing the bass that had previously been cancelled. You will hear all the detail of a double bass, the snare drum, hi-hat, ride cymbal, floor tom, it will all come together and the amazing thing is that music that that did not quite get you before might now have some merit.
I have an idea for how to remove the effect of a big TV screen, will describe it later. Gotta go.
@grey9hound I have read up on RoomPerfect. In a hard surfaced room clapping your hands produces a slap echo. Please tell me how an electronic device can remove the echo.
Mrdecibel: how can you compare the purchase of 2 power cords(which I have not bought) to the purchase of an entire home just to listen to music? That’s like saying you are buying $4,000 rims for a car and me saying why not just buy a $100k Mercedes which comes with the same size rims as the $4k rims you’re trying to buy?
Well lemonhaze, I do not Know how it works , but it does . Have you tested it in your room ? I own it , so i know first hand. I doubt that they are going to give away all of their secrets on their Roomperfect, but just because we do not understand how it works , does not mean that it doesn’t work. Please use it before you claim what it cannot do. if you do not have first hand experience. Most people end up having some soft surfaces anyway ,, like rugs, couch, carpet .. etc. I know it would be best to do Some room treatment.
I believe a reasonable facsimile for speakers acting as resonators is that of percussion instruments in a symphony. Timpani, bass drums, snares, xylophone, glockenspiel, and anything else that can vibrate in sympathy with the music is heavily dampened with felt pads and "pillows" except during use because they will all vibrate as they are excited by their resonate frequencies. Only the instruments required for an evenings performance are put on stage. Even in clubs and rock concerts, drummers disengage their snares during quiet passages. One of the greatest technological advances in the invention of the modern piano was when a physical felt dampener was installed so that it released with a key depression or the sustain pedal was pushed. Try playing music in a room with a grand piano having it's sustain pedal held down. All of these examples can provide easily audible empirical tests for hearing these resonances.
Speakers are generally boxes with membranes covering at least one opening. True there is much dampening so the effect is lessened but that does not make it disappear completely. Rather than ringing in sympathy, I believe speakers are much more likely to absorb high frequencies and re-radiate (albeit with a time delay) lower frequencies. As I stated in my earlier post and others have reiterated, it results in a loss of highs, reduction of detail and a general "smearing" of sound, it could also enhance room modes.These effects would be cumulative. If I understand Dolby's advertisements, Atmos can accommodate up to 24 surround and 10 overhead speakers and 2 subwoofers for a total of 36 in a home system! Keep in mind that many audiophiles feel that even the vibration caused by power supplies can denigrate performance (see Stillpoints, Sort Kones, HRS shelving, Critical Mass Shelving and a host of other available accessories)
For a person who is publicly reviewing premium equipment having all of these speakers in one's listening room could easily result in a bias towards overly bright, forward and somewhat hard sounding equipment over a more balanced, neutral sound. And I believe this is important information for WC to consider as he is planning his room. What are his goals, and what tradeoffs is he willing to make? And most importantly, chose the tradeoffs consciously. I am confident a 2 channel system will sound better in the same room with 13 other speakers vs. 36 or 9 vs. 36 and that most ideal would be only the 2 active ones.
As WC and myself share the common experience of having our 2 channel and HT sharing the same location, I try and limit the HT to make the smallest impact because while I want HT, I really want great 2 channel music.
Gotta say, I have been reading this thread since last week and finally got to today's posts. All I can say is WOW what a journey this has been for the OP.
I have to agree with some of the posts stating there will be trade offs having a room doing double duty but I also understand the need to do so. Having a home with one bonus room your lucky having a home with 2 bonus rooms? That is for the very wealthy or single man with no kids IMO.
The double duty room will require a very skilled designer and I feel there will still be some trade offs needed. To do a dedicated HT would require carefully placed acoustic treatments and for 2ch those treatments will be differant.then there is the interference from all the different speakers in that room that could pose a sound issue when the other is playing. Just the sound waves coming from the active system could cause the other speakers to resonate causing issues with the overall sound.
- longer decays - deeper soundstage - greater separation - microscopic detail retrieval - more emotion - with more detail retrieval, this pc will also expose crappy recordings. If the recording wasn’t recorded “clean” then it will also expose the garbage behind the music in the form of “noise or hiss”.
Overall, outstanding powercord. Unfortunately I don’t have 2 Odin 20a powercords to try on my amps so I can compare. I can certainly say THESE ARE THE BEST powecords I’ve had on my amplifiers.
One important room design thought. Getting your decision as to how to set up the room, long or short wall, has major implications with regard to A/C.
Clearly, you will want more ducting near your 2 Channel Amps as your journey will continue and getting adequate cooling is important for many amp designs.
One last thought as you are making major changes, have you thought about a generator. I am meeting my guy to size one in South Georgia. Money well spent as hurricane season is almost upon us.
WC, Your findings rather it's the AQ Dragon HC PCs or the Odin PCs makes this hobby a joy, frustrating, and depressing(joking) all at the same time. Some believe $9K for a power cord is crazy. I don't and your discovery serves as a reminder that everything impacts the sound of a great system.
I think that you have to be above a certain level in audio to be able to hear those changes, I believe that was stated in an earlier post. Those that don't believe in it have equipment that while might be good isn't in the same league as the units that do show changes you do to your system. A good example would be when I first got into HT I had a Denon receiver and Polk RT speakers I thought WOW that's nice then was encouraged to add an Amp to the mix and that would make a huge improvement in sound. Well it didn't. Then was told to get better larger speaker wire that would make things change. Well that too didn't do anything. The reason I came up with is nothing in that system was of the quality to hear any changes.
WC and others posting have systems that are at that level, so I take those making those claims about wires and amps not making a difference in sound quality with a grain of salt.
I hate to use car analogies but they sometimes help in understanding certain things: if you put 93 octane fuel in your Toyota Camry, will it run faster in the 1/4 of mile? No right? What if you use race gas in a 1500 hp twin turbo Toyota Supra ? Will it go faster Than if you used 87 octane? YES IT WILL.... better fuel is needed to sustain massive horsepower levels.. same thing applies with audio. The impact of an outstanding powercord such as the audioquest dragon or nordost odin will be there if you have a $3500 dollar amplifier BUT this impact won’t be perceived as big as if you had better amplification. You might wonder, why would that be? Well because the cheaper amplifier will have limitations due to the smaller power supply or the quality of the internal components, etc. Better amplifiers have more “untapped” potential that can be unleashed by simply changing to a better pc or interconnects. When I was started this journey, I used cheaper components and wasn’t a believer in cables. I then began my journey with wireworld cables and it wasn’t until I moved to the silver 7 series that I started to detect a different sound or flow. Once my ears heard this, I didn’t stop and now I find myself with odin 1 speaker cables and Odin 1 powercords. One thing I will say is that some amplifiers tend to be less affected by powercords than others. For example, the pass labs 350.8 really didn’t change much when I tried different power cables but class D amps tend to be EXTREMELY responsive to powercords. I can assure everyone here that cables make a difference. If you are buying great components and have amazon cables, you are essentially buying expensive shoes and wearing socks with holes in them.
Speaking of AC Units. Ductless Systems from Fujitsu are 28" wide. You can find a spot for one on the long wall. It has a SEER of 21 or better. These are used in the Homes in the Caribbean. Easy to setup, and twice as efficient as regular AC.
I still standby the Double Curtain Design of hiding the TV and the front speakers with a design that opens up like they do at a Play that you would go and see in NY. It will make a large difference with rear reflections from a dipole speaker.
To add to WC’s point on hearing the a bigger difference between cables with higher end amps, when I switched to the 509X the difference between the AQ copper Earth and the silver Fire interconnects cables became glaringly obvious vs. prior amps I used. With the Fires, clarity, crispness, and bass control became obviously improved compared to the copper Earth cables. I was shocked how much of a difference there was between interconnects and previously questioned the 3x increase in cost going from Earth to Fires.
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