My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
WC, "
So today I realized how F**ing moody the constellation centaur 2 monos are." It may have something to do with what time of day you're listening and/or how much electricity is being consumed in your area at the time. Many people believe their system's sound totally different during peak power usage in their city.
WC - Is it safe to assume you preferred the Odin 1 speaker cable? Any specific characteristic? Also, still curious about the other interesting observations re: your cables that you mentioned a few days ago, if you get the chance to relay your thoughts...
Odin 1 : it seems to sound more natural than the wireworld (with my current electronics of course). Odin seems to have tighter bass too but I do wish it had just a little more fullness in the mids. I tried other cables that helped in the mids but took away the gorgeous sparkle or tight bass. It’s hard to have one thing that does it all. Personally, I love 3D sound with the imaging to match. I enjoy the level of realism and/or detail retrieval that my best amplifiers brought to the table. I don’t like “dark” sound such as boulder, Classe, BAT, etc because they just don’t get me engaged. They really do NOTHING for me.
ps: the power issues mentioned above is something I’ve never thought about before. You guys might be on to something.
As ricred1 indicated, there could be an issue with your power grid. I noticed that my best sound is occuring on Sunday mornings. I notice a blacker background and greater dynamics.
I also have intermittent DC on my AC line, which makes my Krell monoblock transformers mechanically hum. So I’m investigating DC blocker devices as we speak. Balanced power transformers could also be of some help, to mitigate grid pollution.
Did you ever get the Valhalla 2 IC’s to try? My Nordost retailer told me the Valhalla 2 IC’s were a little more forward and fuller in the midrange than the Odin 1’s which he said were more neutral. Might be the perfect balance for your current set-up. FWIW
For the last few years I have been using a PS Audio Power Plant 10 for all of my electronics except amplification. The system tracks incoming voltage swing and other characteristics. The voltage can vary by more than 5 (+2/-3 from 120). You can certainly see the volatility depending on hot summer afternoons here in Chicago, I can only imagine how much worse it is in Florida. I do not recommend the 10 for big amplifiers, they just don't have enough extra to meet the high current demands but I understand PS Audio has released some larger, updated versions that have high current amplifiers in mind. I expect that in the new future I am going to be experimenting with some other power treatment systems but I have found the PP10 to be very good... just not big enough for my BAT VK 500 SE which is a highly Class A biased A/B design and sufficient for keeping my listening room warm in the winter.
WC, Yes, I have found many amps to be "moody." Big names, too. The Mark Levinson ML2 was king of the hill 40 years ago. I bought it used and it was neutral and fantastic at first. Soon it became like marshmallows coated with molasses. Same experience with the Spectral DMA50 and a Goldmund Mimesis amp of the day. But the ML2, Spectral, and Goldmund never recovered, and I got rid of them all. This is perhaps the biggest reason I will never spend big bucks on any amp, because you just never know what will happen. You can look at pictures of goddesses in their 20’s. 50 years later, some are still gorgeous, but many are like moldy fruit. Yes, I currently notice some differences with the time of day. But sometimes it is not predictable, like a woman with irregular periods. My Shunyata Denali is probably the most useful device I have had which greatly reduces the extent of the variations in sound. Before the Denali, on some days it was not worth listening at all. I couldn't correlate the effect on sound with the line voltage, so this whole subject is a mystery to me.
ricevs, Thanks for your ground breaking info about Bruno Putzey's new module. Bruno gets his very low distortion figures by using lots of negative feedback. Merrill does the opposite with no negative feedback, and still manages to get fairly low 0.08% distortion. Merrill makes a good case for the high speed accompanied by naturalness which is only possible without the interfering negative feedback. I heard the Mola Mola Kaluga amp which uses Bruno's Hypex module. It is fast and neutral, although some have criticized its coolness in tone character. I have a hunch that Bruno still likes high amounts of negative feedback. So the question is, who is right about feedback? As always, the total design is important, not just which module is used. As a designer yourself, you know the importance of that, which is why you continue to tweak.
Ron: after doing many listening sessions with the Valhalla 2 IC, I didn’t think it did anything better than my wireworld platinum 7. Trust me, I tried HARD To like it but it never did anything to make me want to keep it. As far as the nordost Odin, that might be the way to go for sure.
Viber: the only dark sounding class d amplifier I’ve owned was the theta digital Prometheus. The Classe amp2 is not dark sounding.
ONE THING I HAVE LEARNED which you all need to keep in the back of your head: the more expensive the amplifier, the more demands it will place on your current electrical system. I’m not even talking about the amp drawing a lot of power but rather the amplifier’s ability to let you hear everything coming from the wall. It’s almost like a glass from the powercord all the way to the end of the speaker cables.
One final update: there is the potential opportunity for me to personally review a secret amplifier that I won’t disclose what it is until I know it is happening 100%. I will be updating it once I know it is happening. Stay tuned ....
viber, you mention you purchased and owned a used Mark Levinson ML 2. I am wondering why you referred to the amp as " it ", a single unit, when the model ML 2 was a mono block, requiring two, for stereo. I knew the ML 2 very well. You might be mistaking about the exact model. I suspect you had the ML 3, as I was familiar with that model as well. I loved the early Levinson amplifiers. ML 2s were just awesome !
Gryphon Mephisto monoblocks.... the beauty, build and they are probably going to give the foward powerful sound like the Krells of old. Neoliths could really like them. I'd bet that they will blow away just about anything you are comparing now. As an amplifier guy, I just love to see a "beast" of an amplifier setup. Wow is not strong enough.
WC, as one spends more money on equipment, it should be expected to hear more of " everything ", good, or bad. Starting with : musical information on the recordings; individual qualities of the ancillary equipment; cables, tubes, isolation and resonance control devices; room acoustics ( walls, floors, ceiling, doors and windows, vents ) and equipment set up; electrical characteristics from the grid, once it enters the home ( a dedicated, isolated, and high voltage box, superior wiring and outlets ); other electrical devices throughout the home, such as ac adaptors for phones and laptops, modems, microwaves, light dimmers and bulbs, other appliances, pool pumps; etc. Building a room, as you are doing, should have all of this figured out in the design, and it will not be cheap. Do it right, so you will get the most benefit from your " system " investment. Enjoy ! MrD.
Thanks mrdecibel. Being that this is my first time involved with turning a garage into a dedicated room, it’s tough to know exactly how to make the right decisions. I need to figure out the following: room will be about 19x22
-how big of a screen can I fit while the Neoliths are on both sides of of the screen? -should I sit on the shorter or longer wall? -how many speakers can I fit? 13.2 or 11.2 layout? -where will I place the dac, preamp, multi channel amps and other equipment? Will a rack off to the side of my listening position fit given my room dimensions? a friend of mine advised against me putting all my home theater gear in a wall rack because he said I will no longer be able to test drive other stuff. It will make it too hard to deal with so he recommended that use a stand that accommodates everything and put it at the 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock position from my listening chair. The position of this stand will also determine where the outlets will be on this particular wall.
I need to know how everything will be done above in order to properly wire the room, but I’m unfortunately clueless. If you all can give me pointers or a point of reference then I can certainly look into it and apply it to the layout. I believe construction starts a week from tomorrow if all goes well. I’ve already picked out the carpet but I can’t decide on the right ac unit that won’t be crazy loud. I would prefer a split ac unit so that the noise isn’t inside the room but if you all know about a “window” ac unit that is quiet then please let me know. I know technology has come a long way so I gotta believe these “window” wall units are now much quieter than ever before.
WC, I have found that any speaker on the long wall with less distance to your back wall will produce a heavier bass oriented sound than if the speaker is on the short wall projecting to a greater distance to the back wall. With the Neo especially, I suggest placing them on the short wall. You can try this in your present room. This way, the Neo will be more buoyant with greater life in the mid and HF. A disadvantage of this placement is that your screen will have to be less wide, but audio is more important than video, right? Another disadvantage is that the image will be narrower because the speakers are closer together. To me, the life and clarity outweighs the narrower image.
mrdecibel, OK, I should have said I used the pair of ML2 monos. In those days, the term, "mono amplifiers" wasn't used much. They were 25W class A into 8, doubling up to 100W into 2, and drew 400W idling, each. Each weighed 65 lbs for a mere 25W.
Thanks viber. I want for everyone to read my last post and chime in. I want to hear everyone’s input so I can begin to process things and figure out the layout. Ideally, I would only want the center channel and the monos right under the screen. Everything else would be in a rack or stand somewhere else in the room. I am thinking of wiring the room with wireworld (cheaper speaker cable for the surrounds) but if you all have options then please let me know.
ricevs, Purifi is exciting. At first, I was disappointed to read 12.8 dB gain from the module, but this is voltage gain, so the power gain is 25.6 dB (V squared divided by R=power). I doubt this is the whole circuit, which usually has an input stage before the power stage, so that manufacturers can tailor the sound by varying the input stage. It is exciting that NAD has licensed this module. But we can expect Bruno Putzeys to develop his own complete amp with his own special tweaks. As usual, it will be priced much higher than NAD. I look forward to the reviews of Purifi and Element by Srajan of 6 moons.
WC, I have urged you not to blow your money on old fashioned expensive dinosaur amps, when SOTA technologies are coming in the near future in finished products. I would love to see a mainstream company like NAD blow away the big overpriced names of the present. Don’t blow too much money on Odin cables, since they have compromises for your tastes anyway.
WC, A lot of good questions, I just had a few thoughts that hopefully might prove helpful:
1. At only 15% width to length difference, I think aesthetics and functionality should dictate which wall to assign as "front". Since the listening room is doubling as a home theater, I suggest it may be better to use the 22' as front so that you can accommodate more side by side seating that is slightly more optimally situated for listeners and a slightly wider soundstage which I think you prefer. Best situation is that both speakers and listener seat are 1/3 in from front and back walls respectively but that might be challenging with this space. Front L&R should also be well away from side walls (again, technically ideal for 1/3 in/each but rarely, practically achievable. IME the more "air" around any speaker, the better they perform.
2. On the TV side, I have mounted mine such that during serious 2 channel listening, I push the tv all the way back against the wall to optimize sound. When I am watching TV/Movies, the TV mount extends out nearly 2 feet. I sit approximately 13 feet away so this changes the "apparent" size of the TV by nearly 20%. I can "hear" the impact of having the TV extended when I am listening to 2 channel only so if you are going to have a TV in between the speakers, make sure you minimize the impact as much as possible. With speakers centered and 4' off each side wall, assuming a 2-1/2' speaker width that leaves a maximum space of only 9'. 100" would fit... 85" would fit with breathing room. If you use the 1/3 in rule, inside speaker boundary would each extend more than 8' in leaving only 6' in between, making your maximum size be 85" but that would be tight. I know you well enough to suspect you are going to want as big as possible. Bigger visual competes with less good 2 channel sound. A projector would allow a bigger screen but if you use the extendable mount, this difference is mitigated. If you sit with ears 4' off the back wall (already less than recommended!) and your speakers are 4' off the front wall that puts your center line only 11' in front of you. With TV mounted flush, your sitting 14.5' away, extended out 2' brings it to 12.5', an apparent screen size increase approaching 20%...
3. My listening room/home theater is approximately 50% larger than your space and I am running 7.1 surround. For my room, I would prefer to be running 7.1 atmos and someday I may upgrade, but... Many times I have considered removing side surrounds and just using rears as my forced layout pushes my primary side surrounds slightly in front of listener position which is highly undesirable. I am not experienced with the latest multi-speaker systems but to be frank, when you are listening to 2 channel music, every additional speaker that you have in the room other than primaries becomes a passive resonator that smears and colors what you are hearing. For this reason, the best high end dealers physically remove unused speakers from the room whenever possible. Following this dictate, for your 2 channel experience, the less additional channels, the better. If I were setting up a room your size where you love huge speakers and a big soundstage, that is going to take up a lot of real estate for home theater. This involves a pretty big prioritization decision on your part. Do I want the best home theater or do I want to emphasize my 2 channel reviewing and have a reasonably good home theater experience? That's on you, bud!
4. I would suggest a 3 shelf x 3 shelf rack plus amp stand(s) in front and the height should allow for reasonable TV viewing without obstruction. If you pull them off the back wall, you can easily get behind to swap cables and components without doing major surgery every time. If they are on the side wall, they are going to need to be moved back tightly against the wall so as to not interfere with listening geometries. Most ideal might be having all equipment except amps behind listener but now you are talking a fresh mortgage for the 10 meter interconnects! As we talked at Axpona, there is a reason that many of the best rooms were using Critical Mass Systems racks...
5. In room / in window AC would be a mistake. Find a unit where fan and compressor are removed from room. They exist!
6. Power. Pick a configuration and go all out on power (multiple, dedicated 20 amp lines, isolated ground--although I am beginning to believe the grounds for the entire system should be shared instead of separate for each circuit). Finally, in case you change your mind on room configuration in the future, have your electrician install some extra conduit to the alternative position. If the conduit is there, it's cheap to have an electrician come and pull new cables! Might be the best extra $200 bucks you ever spent!
Already writing too much but hope that my thought process might be helpful and inspire some discussion... Disclaimer: No matter what decisions are made there are going to be tradeoffs. I don't pretend to think other people might choose to put their compromises in different places and that is why we can have so much fun discussing!
In response to WC post about the wiring Love his new dedicated room I can only tell you that I have found that over the past 30 years the best way to approach this is to utilize the following: 1. Run one or two dedicated to 220v lines. 2. Utilize the audience internal wiring that will go from the breaker box to the wall receptacle. 3. Purchased the appropriate breaker whether it be 30 amp or 50 amp and send it to audience for them to treat and they will mail it back to you for your to install in the breaker box. 4. Use a 220 V wall receptacle. You may want to ask Audience if they can treat this wall receptacle as well. 5. In order for your equipment to work with the 220 V line you can use the richard 220v Richard gray isolation transformer. This simply plugs into your 220 V line and you have 110 outlets on the unit for you to plug your gear into. This will give you an extra 600 W of power (2400 total watts) as opposed to just using a straight 220 V line -it is pure balanced power and will completely isolate you from the grid.
WC, regarding the moodiness of the Constellation amps, as others have suggested it could very well be AC power-related. But by any chance has the humidity in the listening room been different than usual during some of the times you’ve been using those amps? My understanding is that humidity can significantly affect the performance of electrostatic speakers, just as it has effects on static electricity.
Viber6 5-17-2019 Purifi is exciting. At first, I was disappointed to read 12.8 dB gain from the module, but this is voltage gain, so the power gain is 25.6 dB (V squared divided by R=power). I doubt this is the whole circuit, which usually has an input stage before the power stage, so that manufacturers can tailor the sound by varying the input stage.
The second sentence reflects a common misunderstanding. A db is a db, whether voltage or power is being referred to, and in this case the gain is 12.8 db for power as well as for voltage. The fact that for a given load impedance power is proportional to the square of voltage is accounted for in the formulas for converting voltage ratios and power ratios into db:
db = 20 x log(V1/V2) = 10 x log(P1/P2)
where "log" is the base 10 logarithm.
So for example a gain of 6 db represents a doubling of voltage while also representing an increase of four times for power. A doubling of power would be an increase of 3 db, which is an increase of the square root of 2 (about 1.414) for voltage.
But as you indicated, perhaps it is anticipated that additional gain would be provided by a separate input stage.
almarg, No, I believe we agree that the power gain would be 25.6 dB for that module. Your formula shows that log(P1/P2) is 2x log(V1/V2), or P1/P2 is (V1/V2) squared. To simplify and look at it another way, suppose the voltage gain is 10 dB, or a factor of 10. Then the power gain would be 20 dB, or a factor of 100. It is often easier to think in terms of factors, and then convert to dB, which is the logarithm. Take a common 100 W amp with input sensitivity of 1V for the full 100W output. Power is V squared over R, which is 100W. At 8 ohms, V squared is 800. Take the input V of 1, and you get a V squared ratio of 800. The power gain in dB is the log of 800=29, but the voltage gain is the square root of 800 whose log is 14.5 dB.
I just finished re-wiring 2 dedicated 20a lines for my system. I used Audience's 'Hidden Treasure In-Wall AC Cable'. It was expensive but I have a short distance from my panel box to my system so I went for it. I figured if power cables make such a positive impact in sound quality why wouldn't AC cables from panel box to receptacle....I'm glad I did. The following is from Audience's website.
Hidden Treasure In-Wall AC Power Cable features three 10 AWG stranded 99.9999 percent pure oxygen-free copper (OFC) conductors. The wire is cryogenically treated to relieve stresses that can be imparted to the wire during manufacturing and to re-align the microstructure in the copper for improved conductivity. The conductors are foil-shielded to provide rejection from external electrical noise. The dielectric (insulation) is made from XLPE cross-linked polyethylene insulation with a PVC sleeve for unmatched durability.
Also as far as where to place your speakers, equipment, listening position...I think I would have your dedicated AC lines/outlets placed close to a corner so you would have the option of placing your equipment and more importantly your speakers on the long or short wall (which ever placement sounds best) in the room. To HAVE to place the speakers on 1 specific wall would be limiting. Having the option to choose where to place your speakers based on sound quality in that specific room would be invaluable.
WC, as psnyder pointed out, there are ac / heating units available, that are called " packaged " and or " all in one " systems, that combine the compressor, condenser coil, and blower fans all in one unit ( pretty much what is used in mobile, and many manufactured homes ). Generally, they are used, to allow more space within the home. You would be looking at a packaged heat pump system, which combines, heating, air conditioning, and air handling, all in one unit, unlike a split system, which most homes, such as yours, use ( yes, I know, I am being repetitive with the all in one ). I would research it as a way to go. They are big, and noisy ( at the unit ), but the location of the unit, outside, can be determined, to provide the quietest operation when you are in your listening seats. The other thing I would like to mention. I understand you want excellent multi channel as well, and as you might or might not know, the center channel, during movies specifically, takes dominance, so, in the best designed home theater rooms, the 3 front speakers are generally the same ( or close to ), as well as the amplification. I just wanted to mention this. I would seek out a company ( a / v installer ) who specializes in designing rooms such as this. They are out there. Till next time. Enjoy ! MrD.
I'm not sure if my take on what you should do with the new room is worth anything to you. Sometimes I wonder if you think I'm a kook. Anyway, I would be more than happy to help. I did this stuff for 25 years (Home Theater and High End Audio).
I can not overstress that you should have the length (22) front to back for the setup. Sound always sounds better with room behind you. Otherwise you will have a bass loading problem. Having a Double Curtain that pulls open from left to right to cover the TV and home theater speakers really does help to have a 2 channel listening session that will be so much better than having the TV reflections change the imaging. You should be able to put an 85" LCD on the wall. Then you shelves and stands will be 2 feet out from the Double Curtain. Put it all there. There will be plenty of room for all the equipment, except for the main 2 channel amplifiers. They will sit on floor stands right in front of your shelves.
Home Theater I assume you will put 2 sets of side speakers, 2 rear speakers, front speakers with Atmos speakerson top that integrate with the fronts. 2 subs (REL is best) You don't want some slow sub that is not fast enough to keep up with the explosions. I recommend the REL S5, or the REL 212SE. You know what amps work best, and I find Marantz is the best Preamp to connect to the home theater amps. You could add 2 more REL subs behind you with the Longbow Wireless system. Speaker choice is up to you. I mentioned before that I like the Martin Logan Motion system. The front 60XTs have won awards with Absolute Sound. And they have such a nice Atmos add on.r
In regards to the system power...... put it all on the TV wall. Of course there will be regular outlets all over the room. You may want to consider getting (2) 220 volt outlets installed. Some really good equipment (amps) use it to not starve the amp. OK That's it for now. Let me know if you care what I think. I just get this feeling that what I say doesn't matter, and I have no experience. NOT TRUE.
@Viber6, no, I’m afraid I must disagree with your previous post, and what I stated in my previous post is correct. (Except that as explained below I misspoke when I said that "in this case the gain is 12.8 db for power as well as for voltage." As explained below, in the case of an audio amplifier power gain is essentially a meaningless and non-useful quantity, because the load impedance is vastly different than the input impedance). To use your examples:
To simplify and look at it another way, suppose the voltage gain is 10 dB, or a factor of 10.
Consistent with the formulas I stated previously, a voltage gain of 10 db corresponds to a multiplication of the voltage by a factor of about 3.1623, not by a factor of 10. And **for a given load impedance** (note the use of that expression in my previous post) that corresponds to a multiplication of power by a factor of 3.1623 squared, which is 10, and which per the formulas I stated previously is also 10 db.
Take a common 100 W amp with input sensitivity of 1V for the full 100W output. Power is V squared over R, which is 100W. At 8 ohms, V squared is 800. Take the input V of 1, and you get a V squared ratio of 800. The power gain in dB is the log of 800=29, but the voltage gain is the square root of 800 whose log is 14.5 dB.
Per the relation P = (V squared) / R, the voltage corresponding to 100 watts into an 8 ohm resistive load corresponds to the square root of 800, which is about 28.28 volts. Voltage gain that would result in an output of 28.28 volts in response to an input of 1 volt is a voltage gain of 28.28x. Per the formula I stated in my previous post 20 x log(28.28/1) = 29 db, not 14.5 db.
The power gain in that particular situation (involving an amplifier) would be a number that is completely different, and that has essentially no practical usefulness, because the input impedance is very different (and presumably vastly higher) than the 8 ohm load impedance. Again, note the reference in my previous post to "for a given load impedance." Due to the presumably very high input impedance, the input power would be very small, and would be dependent on the specific input impedance of the particular amp, and its relation to output power would be of little or no interest.
The bottom line, again, is that for a given load impedance the number of db corresponding to a given voltage ratio is the same as the number of db corresponding to the resulting power ratio.
P.S: Upon re-reading my previous post it occurs to me that the use of the word "load" in the last sentence might create some ambiguity. Let me restate the sentence with that word deleted:
The bottom line, again, is that for a given impedance the number of db corresponding to a given voltage ratio is the same as the number of db corresponding to the resulting power ratio.
Also, to clarify further, although the prefix "deci" literally refers to a factor of 10, or one-tenth, by convention a factor of 20 is used in db calculations for voltage ratios, as shown in the formula I provided earlier.
Thanks for the input guys. It seems that there is a bit of conflict as to which wall I should use for my Neoliths. Some say the 22ft wall because it will allow for more breathing room for the speakers and for a bigger screen while the other camp is saying to use the short wall so I can be farther away and not have my back against the wall which will create bass problems. Both are valid points for sure. My goal is to have 2 rows of recliners (3 recliners per row) and choose the biggest screen my room will allow. I saw a cool room today in which the screen retracted and behind the screen they had acoustic panels. That’s a great idea but I’m not sure how good these retractable screens are.
Almarg, To be brief here, I think the confusion is about semantics. A dB, or 0.1Bell, is a unit of loudness. It really shouldn't be used to describe a ratio, which it is not. So when Bruno Putzeys describes the voltage output/voltage input as 12.8 dB, I really don't know what he means. Let's call it an even 13 dB. A difference of 13 dB in loudness is a factor of 20, which is 20 times more energy, which we both agree is power. So Bruno should have said that the voltage output is greater than input by a factor of the square root of 20, which is 4.472. This would fit with the use of this module as one of two amplification stages, since a typical complete power amp has a voltage increase factor of 20, and power increase factor of 400, or "26 dB" (forgive the misused and inappropriate expression). Now I think we agree. Thanks for challenging me. Also, when a manufacturer licenses Bruno's module, it adds its own input stage, which will affect the sound roughly to the same extent as Bruno's module. So even if the module is absolutely a perfect straight wire with gain, the finished amp's sound will be determined by the manufacturer's own input circuit, which is up for grabs. If Bruno makes his own input stage with the same characteristic as his module, then that finished amp will be ready to compete with the finished products from Merrill. It will serve as a valid test of how the 2 finished products compete, in terms of their respective technologies.
ricevs, Take note of the 2nd paragraph above. In the past, Bruno has made his smaller Hypex modules available to small manufacturers like you, while reserving the powerful Ncore 1200 for only a few companies. Let's see what you can do with his latest module and your own input stage.
WC, have you gotten in touch with Martin Logan to ask their thoughts as another data point? These are very different speakers given the massive curved electrostats combined with the massive bass woofers. I saw a pair of Neoliths in person recently and they are even bigger than what I imagined.
Btw, thanks for your insight on the Luxman 509X. Replaced the MC452 with the 509X and it added so much more detail but not losing smoothness. Amazing how you really can’t rely on watt numbers, the 509X are driving my 11As as well if not better than the MC452.
You mentioned that the Constellations sound amazing with some songs vs. others. Could it be they are very true to source, so when recordings are average they don’t sound great and when they are well recorded they sound amazing?
Initial impressions using Virgo 3 preamp: - smaller soundstage than block audio or constellation. Sound went from being a v8 to a v6.
- beautiful mids - warmer highs than constellation and block audio - bass is about 50% or less than what I have with constellation - imaging not as pronounced as with other amplifiers.
i will try using the lampizator as a preamp and switching to the 8ohm connection instead of 4. For now, it is certainly not a match for the power hungry Neoliths.
WC, we all expected that outcome, even if the ARs have some good qualities. Not the best match for the Neos. My Lascalas would love them. Eziggy...A friend of mine just got a great deal on a used, mint 452, and he just loves Mac. They are well made and look beautiful, but I have always enjoyed Mac's OTL amplifiers more, but still, other brands over Mac, in sq.
Unfortunately I can’t do that. The room must do double duty. Part of the reason WHY I am doing this is so that I don’t have to hear the wife tell me to turn it down at midnight when I’m doing my listening. I want to just go hide in the garage and blast it without worrying about anyone regardless of the time. The home theater has to happen because I want to be able to enjoy a good movie in a movie theater environment every now and then. I’m sick of watching a move using the tv speakers or in stereo mode through the neoliths. I want to hear the rumbling, the movie walking around my room, etc. There will be nights where I won’t do any critical listening but I’d enjoy a great movie perhaps. Lastly, I’m not sure why a 2 channel set up can’t live with a multichannel set up ? Either way, I’m going to have a screen or a big tv in the room. The room won’t be 2 speakers and that’s it. I want to watch tv in there too.
Having heard the ARC 160Ms a number of times, I would agree with your assessment and that's why I thought you'd like the two SS options you have better. I think even with the much more powerful ARC Ref750SEs you'd still like Block, Constellation, and Rowland better. And I've never heard them. Going from the ARC Ref750SEs to D'Agostino Progression Mono's brought a bigger soundstage and much more slam/impact, which I think is what you really enjoy.
Where's the door going to be to access your room? This may dictate where the gear goes? Can't overstress that if you don't have enough depth, you'll end up with bass that is less than desirable. Putting gear on the long wall is not always the best choice.
pokey77, Agree with you. ARC of any power is still tubes whose only good point is natural midrange. Although midrange is perhaps the most important part of the freq range, many SS amps do very well in the midrange while being more accurate in the rest of the freq range. Tubes are not comfortable driving low impedance loads, which rolls off the HF in electrostatics.
WC, I understand your need for an isolated room that does double duty. If you accept the compromises for 2 channel stereo, that's OK. Another problem for audio is that 6 big recliners will disturb and congest the sound. When listening alone, you will sit up front and center, but then all the chairs to the side and in back of you will act as deadening absorbers. This may not be a problem if you design the rest of the room to be more live--fewer acoustic panels, carpeting, etc. Another consideration is that when several friends listen with you, they will all be out of the sweet spot for audio, like listening in a typical crowded room at a show. (Remember how Sanders had several chairs lined up centered. Perhaps 6 smaller chairs all centered would be a better setup, although your room is not big enough for that.) Your friends will concentrate more on the movie than the music.
WC, Also, the compromises for audio in the double duty room will outweigh the benefits of expensive Odin cables, etc. Yes, you will still hear the differences as you do now, but an uncluttered open space between you and the speakers is paramount for highest quality audio. Maybe you can make do with 2 or 3 smaller chairs lined up centered behind each other, or 1 recliner for yourself and a few small chairs brought in for guests only when they are there. This reminds me of how some audio dealers demo 1 pair of speakers at a time, with other speakers removed from the room.
It's so easy to have 2-channel with HT in the same system, but separate system. The easiest way is to use a preamp that has HT bypass. When you are listening to 2-channel all of the HT components are off. When you're ready for HT, select the HT bypass input on your 2-channel preamp and turn on your HT components. Most high-end preamps have HT bypass.
Keep in mind, when you are deciding between 19 vs 22 feet, these are not huge differences either way. There are apps and software (I think one I used is now called "Mark On Call HD" Home Designer App) and cost less than $10 that works on an iPad and I'm sure other options for other platforms that allows you to space plan the layout of a room, although not specific to audio, you can: Define dimensions of room, specify sizes and locations of cabinets, speakers, TV, chairs that can be set up as recliners, etc. and allow you to do a certain level of space planning. Picture how much space is necessary for people to move around, see viewing angles to the tv screen, imagine the way way sound waves will arrive at listeners at different seating positions, and most importantly, move it all around easily. It would not be definitive, but I suspect you will find that when you see everything proportionately represented, it will help you to make some much better decisions. Having briefly met your wife, the best part of this software is that if you put together the room, she can offer some thoughts with some sensibilities and perspective that could prove really helpful!
I will post a picture of my system and try and post a picture of the HD planning graphic of my initial listening room and you can see pretty quickly how I used it. In my case, I had been planning on doing a row of 3 theater chairs and it just became clear this was not reasonable. I ended up doing 2 "Stessless" recliners and a sofa. For perspective, my TV is only 65". Each square is a foot.
A close eye will show that I have made many changes since I originally planned the room 7 years ago but despite nearly my entire system being upgraded, the fundamentals of placement have remained relatively unchanged. What did happen is that seating positions moved back a couple feet, extension wall mounting tv bracket was added as previously described, a console was replaced with separate amp and center channel dedicated stands and speakers are out a few inches over original... Oh, and most importantly, the lava lamp collection has grown! lol.
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