My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Well, I’ve tried around 15+ since 2011 or so, but don’t focus on large SS mono blocks since I’ve always had efficient, dynamic driver speakers (now Devore Gibbon X). Many SETs, P/P tubes, Class A SS, etc.
My favorite SS amp is Dartzeel , tube is currently ARC Ref 75SE with fond memories of a baby Mastersound Due Venti for value. I also miss my Mc601s from back in the day.
I generally prefer simple circuits with minimal tubes or transistors as they sound better. The amp I need to scoop up one day for fun is the Viva Solista even though it’s not a perfect speaker match- total hifi jewelry.
Hi, im still thinking I will be doing a home theater with a 110-120 inch screen. I don’t know yet of the configuration I’ll be using. most likely JL Audio subs, marantz processor, and class d amps for all surround speakers. I’m not quite sure yet.
Keithr: I still need to try dartzeel but my issue is that they don’t have enough juice for my Neoliths.... if they had a powerhouse of an amp that was not 160k, I’d try them. I’ve said it before, my last 2 brands are momentum amps and gryphon amps. Granted, if Krell releases something incredible or Bryston or someone else, I’d put them in my radar. Lastly, some of you have asked me why I don’t focus on preamps as well and the truth is that I love amplifiers. It is my favorite component and it always puts the biggest smile on my face. I also love big, huge chassis, crazy construction and just those Godzilla looking amps. Granted, they are a pain to deal with, but I have always felt like no small tiny amp has ever beaten the big amps I’ve owned. As a kid growing up, I loved taking apart my toys to see the inside, the wires, the motors, etc. I loved opening my portable CD player and trying to figure out how the hell a laser beam reads a cd. I was obsessed with graphing calculators too. Then one day I developed interest in cars and bought my first corvette z06 at 26 years old. I immediately pulled it in the garage and without any sort of experience, I managed to take apart the engine And install a bigger camshaft with new valve springs. Of course it was nerve-wrecking because I didn’t know if the car would start, but it did and all was well after I tuned it. The reason for the story? Amplifiers have the same effect on me as what those other things in my past did.
@whitecamaross I highly recommend the Deep Sea Sound --Marianas 24. The company name is Deep Sea Sound. David Gage , the owner, lives right here in Knoxville,TN and builds them here. He is fantastic and so are his Subs I have demoed this sub in my 12x15 room. It is unreal.!!! Don’t think for a minute that because it is a 24 inch driver, that it is slow. it is very articulate.... no bloat whatsoever. It is absolutely the best sub that I have ever heard ! Only $4000.00 I was getting Real, usable output , down to 10Hz. Nobody can come close to this Amazing sub, for 4K..
grey9hound, Interesting about the 24 inch sub. Back in the 70's, the Mark Levinson HQD system was SOTA by a mile. Hartley 24 inch woofers built into the floor with the basement below serving as the enclosure! Stacked double Quad 57's, Decca ribbon tweeter in the middle between the Quads. I heard the system--it had everything.
Sony has a nice 85" LCD TV. I, over the years have found a LCD brings so much more robust color than a projection TV. Most all my friends back in NJ have changed to the largest LCD screen possible. The clarity and brightness is just better at any distance. Computers can be run on the sofa. Sony XBR85X900F ($4,500.00). I just don't like OLED, for many reasons that I won't discuss here.
Since amps are your thing, you really should try some high efficiency speakers next (don't have to sell your Neoliths). Then the world is your oyster.
I've compared the Dart vs Dag integrateds at my dealer - I prefer the Dart. But yes, Dart is better on speakers without huge impedance swings or dipping into 2 ohms.
Well, this amp just became part of my list of future amps.... as soon as it releases, I will make calls and bring it. I hope it delivers and doesn’t fail to impress me more than the 860a. Any other new amps that released in Munich?
This blows that Munich always has the newest stuff coming out to consumers. It pisses me off that most new offerings are always showcased in Munich first.
Very interesting that the 860 v2 would supplant the 870a for less $$ and a pair would outperform the 880s..... hopefully we’ll get some verification, if possible, from Munich
WC, Several people here have suggested trying lower power amps, which are often more accurate than high power amps. You may not want most high efficiency speakers, but I think you might enjoy a lower power amp with the Neo for its purity for some of your music that is suitable. FWIW, a Stereophile review of the Pass XA25 showed it to have great clarity, probably greater than the soft euphonic sound of higher power Pass. The XA25 can put out 200W peaks into 2 ohms, and is relatively cheap at $5k retail.
Xa25 is probably an incredible amp but I im not sure it would be sufficient for my Neoliths. I have said it many times, these speakers come alive with more juice and very little amplification makes them sound somewhat rolled off and anemic.
WC, I have very inefficient electrostatic speakers, 75 dB, and yet I have enjoyed the purity and detail of low power amps. Of course this only applies to moderate loudness music. Actually, the high power amps are often rolled off in HF compared to low power amps at lower SPL. In my experience, the Bryston 3B SST2 and 4B SST2 are rolled off and overall dull compared to the lowest power 2.5B SST2. You just have to admire the clarity of low power amps as the compensating benefit for their shortcomings of not having enough power for other music.
Regarding the XA25, I purchased one last year, and I have been delighted with it. It replaced a highly regarded 300B-based tube amp I had been using, a 70 watt per channel class A biased VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII. I found that the following review by Terry London (Audiogon member Teajay) described its sonics perfectly. (And IMO better than they were described in the Stereophile review):
I should add, though, that my speakers (Daedalus Ulysses) are very easy to drive, having a very benign almost flat nominally 6 ohm impedance curve, as well as 97.5 db/1 watt/1 meter efficiency. With those speakers, at least, it comes remarkably close to the VAC with respect to dimensionality, imaging, liquidity, and other traditional fortes of high quality tube amps, while providing a totally black background and better bass. It’s a bit less rich sounding than the VAC, but I interpret that as an increase in accuracy, which is fine as far as I am concerned. But I have no idea as to what kind of results it would provide when faced with the Neolith’s 4 ohm nominal impedance that descends to 0.43 ohms at 20 kHz, coupled with considerably less sensitivity than my Ulysses.
Also, while I’m not in a position to personally comment on how its sonics compare to those of the high powered Pass class A amps, I would note that its design is substantially different in various ways, and I see no reason to assume the XA25 shares much in the way of a "house sound" with them.
Also, see the comments by some other owners as well as myself in the following thread:
In any event, Reno Hifi (which is wonderful to deal with) offers 14 day return privileges less only two-way shipping, which is not expensive for this particular amp. And as many here are aware Pass itself provides exceptional customer support. However Reno can only sell new units (as opposed to trade-ins or demos) to those living more than 100 miles from another authorized Pass dealer.
Great post BUT Reno Hi-Fi isnt restricted by that "territory" issue. I have a PASS dealer about 10 minutes away from me and I purchased a First Watt SIT-3 from Reno last week and its arriving on Monday.
Thanks for pointing that out, RIAA. I was basing my statement on the following statement which appears near the bottom of this page of Reno HiFi’s site:
Reno Hi Fi, Inc. does not sell new Pass Labs components within 100 miles of another Authorized Pass Labs Dealer (though Demo and Used Pass Labs products may be sold near another US or Canadian dealer.) New, refurbished, or used Pass Labs brand amps are available for delivery to and use in the US and Canada only.
I had noticed that statement before calling Mark at Reno to place my order, and I determined that the nearest authorized dealer is 175 miles from my location. I mentioned that fact to Mark before he had a chance to bring up the subject, so I don’t know what if any applicability the statement had at that time or now. Perhaps they just haven’t updated the website to reflect present policy. Or perhaps the policy is different for First Watt products.
In any event, best of luck with your SIT-3. I had considered waiting for the SIT-3 to become available when I ordered the XA25, but in my particular system its low gain (around 11.5 db if I recall correctly) would not be suitable, as the DEQX HDP-5 I use as my preamp provides essentially no gain.
WC, sorry if this is a little off topic. But RIAA, on a different thread you mentioned your received a XA25 as part of a business transaction (I think) but doubted you would ever use it. Wondering if you tried it? If so, your thoughts?
personally i’d like to hear your thoughts on ML 536 monos. 400/800 wpc. they are doing great things these days. as an example the 523 preamp is really really good. i preferred it to the dartzeel preamp latest version which is superb in its own right.
I did receive it and it is gone. I also have the Rowland 535 here and it hasn’t seen action in weeks. I received a Classe amp2 Class d amp and I plan to do a shootout between this amp and the Rowland 535. I am also mad and a little drunk right now so I might be selling off my constellation centaur 2 monos. I can’t say much more than that at this time other than I’m going to be heading to tube amps or class d amps. Yep, Rowland 925s or Belcanto black system might make a return here. I will share with you all the reason why I am thinking of going to class d sometime in the near future. I’m just a little pissed off right now. This journey is crazy to say the least and it does get on my nerves at times. When you think you’ve got what you wanted and then sometime else pops up which totally messes with your head. Ugh... let me keep sipping on this vodka soda and blast this at 100 dbs.
WC, Don't be mad, just be glad you have all the input here. I had the Classe D200 which has the same circuit as the amp2 on a better chassis, so probably near-identical sound. The Classe D200 had good detail, with tonal character a little warmer than neutral. Your amp2 should make an excellent fun comparison to the Rowland 535. But please don't sell off the Centaur before A/B/C 'ing it with the amp2 and 535. My guess is that all 3 are excellent amps with similar degrees of clarity and tonal character. Please report your findings. The only reason to be mad is just about the money you spent on the Centaur. Irv Gross of Constellation told John Atkinson that the difference between the Inspiration and much more expensive lines is just power and weight. You would probably get very similar tone quality from the Inspiration as the Centaur. As almarg and charles1dad said in the link, quality transcends quantity. Music is about the heartfelt thoughts of the composer and its sensitive realization by the performers, not the competitive race car attitude about quantity and money.
Thank you for listing the amps you are checking out and the fact that you listen to a multi-channel system.
First, it kept me from reading all this as the amps in your list are all pretty bad. Next, listening to a multi-channel system is not new. There was a 4-Channel craze during the 1970's ("quad" sound--NOT related to the speaker company of the same name--just a way to market "4" channels) that some may remember, and much appropriate gear to run it with.
Running monoblock amps into a multi-channel control unit may be the right answer, but I have no idea if there is such a control unit today that would meet your requirements.
Kal Rubinson...the King of Multi-Channel Reviews uses Mono Block Benchmark AHB2's going into an Audio Research MP-1 Preamp for his 5.1 setup. No need for a Controller unless you need room correction OR Home Theatre. If your just going for Music this is an excellent setup and the AHB2 has adjustable gain. Its unfortunate there arent many Multi Channel Pre-Amps left in existence. I also have the Conrad Johnson MET-1 Tube Multi Channel Pre Amp.
Here is a link to Kal's latest review from 10 days ago on the new Hegel line of 3-5 Channel Power Amp which he used with the ARC MP-1. Mike at Suncoast carries Hegel. Also compares the Hegel vs the Benchmark AHB2....and the Parasound which has a dismal showing. WCSS might prefer the Hegel cause it has more Thump.
Well folks, it looks like the garage will be built into a 22x19 room. Im 95% sure it will happen before July. Come July, I plan to begin filming videos inside the room and hopefully creating a YouTube channel where I will be able to share this entire journey. Exciting to say the least since I will be able to do everything from a space that will be for me and my madness without any sort complaints from the wife. YES!
The Benchmark AHB2 is about accuracy, period. It is one of the very finest amps I have heard at home. Unfortunately, it clipped and shut down at relatively modest power levels with my electrostatics, much lower than would be suggested by the specs. In Kal's reviews, he uses much less toe in of his speakers with the Benchmark compared to other amps. This suggests that he doesn't like the more extended HF of the Benchmark. His favorite amps are the Classe Sigma monos, which are similar to the amp2. Based on his earlier review, I tried the D200, but their HF were not as extended as the Benchmark.
I have the Classe Amp5 that I use for HT. I’m guessing it is close in sound to the Amp2. I’ve tested it against my other Classe CA-5100, Plinius SB-301 mk2 and my current Simaudio 870a....all in 2 channel music listening. I found the Amp5 to be very unmusical, 2D sounding and lifeless compared to the CA-5100 (class A/B design). Not even remotely close to the Plinius or the Sim. However I do think it is a very good, powerful, small, lightweight and cool to light warm running home theater amp.
Please tell me where your getting your info on Kal and Classe Amps. Ive had NUMEROUS Personal discussions with Kal and he has NEVER even mentioned Classe....EVER. My last exchange with him was 2-3 days ago. He definitely doesnt use them in any of his MC Setups currently
Ditto ron17's assessment of the Amp5 / Classe Sigma amp line.
I also have an Amp5 that I was using temporarily for front L&R until I was able to upgrade significantly to a BAT VK500 SE. The Sigma Amp series are good for surround sound/home theater. In no way to they hold their own against any of the better 2 channel and monoblock amps that WC has been exploring. I am happy using the Amp 5 for center and 4 surrounds of a 7.1 system. I would never consider using it for my primary L&R again. FYI: My pre/pro is Classe Sigma SSP and this makes a reasonably good front end for the system.
WC..Thump and muscularity...….What is this " thump " thing ? My interpretation of " thump " reminds me, of every time a car passes me on the road and the driver has his car system so loud I hear the thump from the trunk. Coloration for sure. Ballsy is a better word.
Sorry again WC if off thread, but RIAA, after all the fantastic reviews I can't fathom how you could have resisted hooking up the XA25 and taking her for a spin.
Jetter, Here is my current lineup of Amps. Please let me know which ones you would favor the XA-25 over.
Dag 400 Monos, Arc 160M, Luxman M900U, Audio Note Jinro.
I also recently purchased the Valvet E2 and I have the First Watt SIT-3 coming tomorrow. I have a friend who had the XA-25 (He sold it to me in a bulk deal) and he also has the Valvet and Sit-3 in his lineup...he prefers both of those considerably over the XA-25 and I know and trust his ears/taste etc.
So the XA-25 is at the bottom of my 7 amp pile. Why on earth would I feel compelled to use it? Im sure its great bang for the buck for people that are financially challenged. You are more than welcome to it. It was used for 4 months by the prior owner.
Ive had the C900U for almost a year now. Came in the same deal as the XA-25. It was just a matter of time to complete the set. Now whats next after the SIT-3 tomorrow....T+A, Accuphase, Vac..who knows? :)
riaa, …."Why on earth would I feel compelled to use it? Im sure its great bang for the buck for people that are financially challenged."....
Not sure and it is not my business what you as a purchaser of the SIT-3 needed to shell out due to the limited production run, but my understanding is that its retail on the SIT-3 is $4K, while the retail on the XA25 is $5K.
SIT-3 I am told is unlike anything I have ever had or heard before. There is nothing else like it so the price tag is not of consequence. Nobody has stated the XA-25 is unique in any way. Its not a compelling story to me.
The only foreign language I speak is Russian so I have no clue what your last comment means nor can I be bothered to look. Are we done now with the audiogon inquisition?
RIAA, I read Kal's discussion of his favorite amp, the Classe Sigma monos 1-2 years ago in the print edition of Stereophile. In his reviews of various speakers, he refers to the Classe, Benchmark and NAD amps, as I recall. You can often get further info on various amps by how they interact with the speaker being reviewed. Kal and several other Stereophile reviewers do this, a good thing.
The gain on the Sigma (29) would NEVER work with the ARC MP-1 Pre which Kal has been using for almost 10 years now. The Highest gain value that can be used is 23. This is why Kal's favorite Amp for MC is the Benchmark AHB2 which has a variable gain option. Think you might have to dig up your "articles" on the internet....you might find that if they exist they are much older than you think.
RIAA, I have not personally heard the XA25, but the reviewer in Stereophile Feb 2018 is ecstatic about it. And almarg agrees. Charles1dad (who used to post here) advocates low power amps, so you should try it as long as you have it. It still has a tube-like overall sound with greater clarity according to these folks, so it would be interesting to hear what differences you find with the ARC 160, which is one of the finest relatively high powered tube amps.
BTW, you are right that review articles might be older than I think. Kal's reference, the Classe sigma monos, may be older news, perhaps 3 years ago. Perhaps he is now favoring the Benchmark, with more of a toe-out to reduce the HF coming from his speakers.
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