2. amps-preamps
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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
viber6
2,448 posts
 
I agree with jafox.  DA converters have evolved to a common high quality, but the differences between DAC products have a lot to do with their analog output stage and power supplies.  For those familiar with turntables, tonearms and cartridges, there are vast differences among all these analog transducers, almost as great as speaker differences.  Analog circuitry shows somewhat less differences, but still greater than digital.  It is truly great news that the inexpensive Oppo competes favorably with the Lampi.  It is also great that WC has the honesty to reveal these truths, in contrast to the typical audio mag-rag that is biased toward expensive stuff because those companies bring in great revenue to the mag-rags.
jafox
1,456 posts
 
jetter, I don't understand what you are saying here.  I have owned the Lampi B6 for nearly 5 years and tried a number of different tubes in the Rectifier and audio circuits and after trying a number of different brands in each, I was able to tune the B6 with vast improvements.  The GG DAC also supports multiple tube types for the Rectifier and audio circuit.  I can only imagine that tube experiments here would be more dramatic than what I have experienced with the B6.  

Are we saying that the Oppo 205 sonically exactly matches the GG in WC's system?  If tube rolling does indeed make dramatic changes here, are we saying that WC's tube set in his GG just happens to result in a sonic signature exactly to the 205?  Come on, this is statistically unrealistic.  WC above indicates that he did hear differences in some system configurations.  And then he could no longer here these differences.  

The 300B tubes have a seductive magic that has to be heard to be appreciated.  I have no experience with the PX-4 but just read the comments on this tube to learn about its praise.  

There is so much obsession with the Nordost Odin cables here.  It was not that long ago that the Valhalla cables were the top of Nordost's line.  But these did not remotely come close to their competition in retrieving the portrayal of space; hyper-detailed yes, but hyper sterile as well.  If the Odin is a continuation of the Nordost sonic path from the Valhalla line, the magic of the GG will never have a chance to surface in WC's system.  It's time to pull all the Nordost cables out, donate them to the Salvation Army, and reconfigure the system with an entirely different cable line.  And no, not Audioquest as this line is another product line that does not bring on the 3D qualities.  Perhaps the Shunyata will do it.

Hopefully some courageous members here who have worked hard to achieve exemplary portrayal of space can share in this forum what cables truly outperformed the competition in their system.  I have tried to suggest a few but they have been ignored for the sake of the Nordost and Wireworld products lines.

I say it again, if WC can not hear the GG significantly outperform the Oppo in the key areas of 3D and harmonics structures, there is a serious problem in his system.  And I again say, put the focus on the ICs in the $2-3k price range and not this insane power cord and speaker cables at 2-3x the price of this.
jetter
3,033 posts
 
Sorry in advance for this long (for me) post and if it seems I am going off thread it was not my intent.  In fact I am having second thoughts about posting it.  WC, if it should not be here give me the word and I will willingly delete it.

Jafox, your reading much more into what I am saying.  I am anything but an experienced audiophile like all of you.  The best I have is a Musetex-Meitner transport/modded DAC, which still sounds better than my newer player.

Say there is a person in front of you singing.  It is being recorded and faithfully made into a CD.  You play the CD on two different cd players or DAC/transports of vastly different price points.  To me, everything about the sound/special cues, etc., should exactly match the original recording/CD without editorializing.  Regardless of whether the budget or high cost unit playback is closest to the original recording/CD, that is the best sounding unit.  The goal of both units should be to reproduce the original sound exactly.  At what price point will the two units achieve this playback accuracy? I have no idea, but suspect its a lot less than the most expensive units sell for. 

Now of course I agree with you that normally the high cost units will sound truer to the source, if not more analogue, but who has or how can this actually be tested to be true?  Then again, what if the more expensive player makes the music sound better than the original recording but the lesser unit is truer to it?

And last, as you mentioned, it may just end up being that WC has some cable/other that is preventing the Lampi from shining.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok I want to clear the dust here. Technically speaking the Lampizator and Oppo 205 should not sound the same. One is tube based while the other is not. There is no reason WHY they should sound alike and to me it also did not make any sense. I remember when I had Wireworld Platinum 7 speaker cables with platinum interconnects. I was able distinguish the oppo  205 from the Lampizator when I connected both to the ref10. I felt like the lampizator had sharper images and a different presentation.
however,  I  proceeded to borrow a Nordost Odin 1 PC which was already broken in since it was a few years old and connected this to the lampizator and it was jaw dropping what It did. As a matter of fact this was THE BEST I have ever heard the lampizator sound. Soon after being shocked, I decided to purchase a brand new odin 1 pc and odin 1 speaker cables. I placed them in the system and I did not feel as wowed which could have been because they are brand new cables with zero break in. 

I tried to compare the lampizator once again to the oppo now that I had odin 1 cables and I could not detect a difference between both. I mean, if there was a difference, I had to find the right song and work very hard to hear it which SHOULD NOT BE the case. Anyhow, I was confused and I basically blamed the Odin 1 speaker cables because prior to their arrival, my system was sounding amazing with the broken in odin 1 powercord and Platinum 7 speaker cables. This is WHY I sent my Odin1 speaker cables back to my dealer and he is now breaking them in for the next 9-10 days so that I can try again to see if the outcome will be different. In the meantime, while I wait for those cables to be broken in, I bought a bunch of Shunyata alpha cables so I can try and see IF AND MAYBE IF I can hear changes between the Lampizator and Oppo when comparing them. From this,  one of the biggest jaw dropping changes was when I connected my monos to the Denali 6000t yesterday. It was just incredible everything it did for the music. It was bigger sound, less noise, etc, etc. 

 

With that said, I connected everything as follows:

 

Shunyata Alpha speaker cables

Shunyata Alpha xlr from the oppo to the ref10 and from ref10 to the monos

Shunyata Alpha PC on the ref10 connected into the wall

Shunyata Alpha PC on the Denali 6000t( monos are connected to it)

Odin 1 on the Lampizator connected into the Denali

Aftermarket Pc on the Oppo 205 connected into the Denali

Wireworld platinum 8 RCA from Lampizator into the Ref10 (these cables gave spectacular results to me with this dac)

 

I connected both sources into the ref10 and volume matched them. Oppo was totally wireless and lampizator was connected with a wireworld silver 7 ethernet cable. I began to play music through roon so that both players could play the same song at the exactly the same second and went between input 1 and 2 in the ref10 and I could detect the oppo 205 sounding fuller, bigger and crisper.  The oppo had more detail behind the music at times and just sounded more engaging. Did it blow away the lampizator? No it did not. 

My take on this experiment? SYNERGY. The oppo is using a matching alpha interconnect and the lampizator is not. I also believe that the Platinum 7 speaker cables are OUTSTANDING for the lampizator because that silver in those cables just makes more magic come out of the lampizator. I think that the best this dac has sounded was when I had platinum 7 speaker cables (which are basically of the same family of the RCAs being used on the dac) and Odin 1 pc on the dac.

 

This is going to be EXTREMELY interesting when the odin 1 speaker cables return because at that point they will be cooked and should be ready after I play them in my system for 2-3 days so they can settle in. IF they DO NOT impress me upon their return, then it will be just a matter of me NOT LIKING what they are doing with my set up. If  they DO NOT DO what the platinum 7 speaker cables did which was allow me to hear the differences between the lampizator and oppo then this is a testament that the speaker cables are imposing their own sound and not allowing differences to be heard.  Of course, some people can say that I need to use a full Odin1 set up, but that is just an insane proposition in terms of $. For me to buy another 3 odin 1 powercords PLUS odin 1 interconnects would mean I have to spend another 25-30k which I am not willing to do.  

I can already hear an argument coming if the odin 1 speaker cables don’t do it for me upon their return. Wanna know what this argument will be? 

1.    the Nordost camp will argue that I MUST HAVE all odin for me to capitalize on what they do and that mix and matching cables is taking away from the synergy

2.    The Nordost attacker will argue that nordost should be ashamed for charging so much and not easily beating brands costing half as much. 

 

Well, that sums it up from me.  The next few weeks will certainly make my system once again go through changes based on synergy. Everything at this price point is incredible, but it now becomes an art which is called “system matching”.

 

 


zprr
306 posts
 
Very helpful synopsis WC. Thanks for taking that time.
I may have missed, are all the Shunyatas new or used?
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
All Shunyata is new. 
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
One thing which is clear is the benefits of the Denali, which I have said yields bigger differences than many power chords.  I just have the 6000 which I use for all components, and never had the need for the additional 2000 which is dedicated to the power amps.  I am glad you have confirmed my findings in your system.   Whether tubes or SS, today's best DAC's are converging to similar if not nearly identical sound characteristics.  Even plain cheap CD players aren't a big comedown from SOTA digital systems, unlike the YUGE differences between cheap MM cartridges and the finest MC cartridges.  Your confusion using different cables may reflect the truly small differences between the Oppo and Lampi, which will be true no matter what cables are in the system.  Don't fret and feel you need to spend big bucks on cables.
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astewart8944
499 posts
 
@whitecamaross FWIW I run each of my Jeff Rowland M925s through their own dedicated Denali 6000S, each on their own separate dedicated circuit. IMO it makes a noticeable positive difference over plugging the monos straight into the wall. I run Cardas Clear Beyond XL PCs from the M925s into the Denalis and Shunyata Sigma NRs from the Denalis to the wall. In this configuration the music seems to rise out of a quieter background with a deeper soundstage. I have become a proponent of Shunyata Denali power conditioners.  
keoliphant
86 posts
 
All this cables, interconnects, and power conditioning talk has piqued my interest.

My dealer swears by the Torus RM20. Anyone tried it and compared it to the Denali?
viber6
2,448 posts
 
I have not tried the Torus, but I tried another isolation transformer.  It was heavy with 2 15A AC outputs.  A minimal debatable improvement.  But the Denali 6000 is a MAJOR improvement, as WC and others also noted.  It is well worth the price.  The technology is such that break in is done quickly at the factory.  Prior to the Denali, I had an Isotek EVO sigmas conditioner, which was better than the isolation transformer, but not as good as the Denali.  Go for the Denali.  There are no reservations, like "this component is more detailed and accurate, but I don't get the seductive sound I like, etc."  Enjoy it.
denon1
343 posts
 

I have no doubts what WC hears with his system using oppo 205 vs lampizator. yes some differences  can be attributed to ICs and speaker cables, but overall (if I understood WC correctly) experience that make WC to say that he did not hear big difference between oppo 205 and lampizator pacific that 15-20 more expensive is alarming.  WC when you had Esoteric grandioso K1 and got lampizator, did you compare two of them, did you hear any difference that made you keep lampizator?  It cannot be that oppo 205 dac sound is in the same ball park as lampizator pacific.


skootb
68 posts
 
My dealer swears by the Torus RM20. Anyone tried it and compared it to the Denali?

I had the Bryston Bit-20, which is an RM20 with a Bryston badge on it. loved it. only sold when i downsized everything. never compared to the Denali, though
gtaphile
74 posts
 
I have an Rm-15 which is connected to everything except amps, line level preamps and phono pre so really tt and digital devices. They simply sound better direct to wall and were thinner through the Rm-15.
Likely not much help but I have heard that the Denali and its kit is quite good.      
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Denon1
i sold the esoteric because I wanted to try lampizator since many have praised it plus it has the ability to be used as a preamp. I also liked the idea of tubes being used. The grandiosos sounded bigger with fuller bass but it was not forgiving. The lampizator is more forgiving and that appealed to me. 
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
I will say that my Oppo 203 playing Pandora plus Through roku ultimate is very engaging . All of my devices are hard wired to the ethernet. If i compare the JRiver Media center PC playing .wav files that i have ripped from cd, i actually kind of prefer the Oppo 203s sound . Now both of these are being bitstreamed to the MX151 through Purist Audio HDMI. My Mx151 is doing the Digital to Analog .What i do notice is that the Oppo 203 is more lit up sounding, or forward. This is good at low to medium volumes. If i turn up really loud it can sound a little too overdone .. so to speak . Whereas if and when i crank up the JRiver to loud volumes , it is not as overbearing .
Whether this actually means anything or not, i do not know . It's just an observation on the Oppo 203 vs JRiver PC
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Good point greyhound. i have gotten in the habit to play things at moderate volumes and then loud volumes and compare accordingly. 
wym2
28 posts
 
@jafox 
"Hopefully some courageous members here who have worked hard to achieve exemplary portrayal of space can share in this forum what cables truly outperformed the competition in their system.  I have tried to suggest a few but they have been ignored for the sake of the Nordost and Wireworld products lines."

Could you please remind us of those cables you believe give such positive portrayal of space? 
eziggy
137 posts
 
Also @jafox have you tried AudioQuest with Martin Logan speakers?  You mentioned they don’t give 3D space.  If so, which speaker cables?

From my experience, AQ pairs really well with ML and gives some of the most amazing 3D sound stage I have heard.  The thicker the speaker wire the more the soundstage increases from what I have tried.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
All-
i can’t go around buying everything you all suggest. What would I do with so many cables here? Selling an amplifier is one thing but selling cables is like selling a mini skirt to a nun. 
robbyg
30 posts
 
Why not try the best - Siltech
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
I am an owner of quite a few Morrow Audio cables. They are quite good with Martin Logans. Love them for making separation of instruments and vocalists surreal. In the future... I will be getting their speaker cables.


They have a sale that you can get their $4,000 speaker cable "Elite Grand Reference Speaker Cable (1152 runs of Morrow SSI wires) " for $1,600 (60% off). These are 2 cables perchannel. One positive cabe, and one negative cab. They have sales all times of the year.

60 day Returns with 100% money back/less shipping....... decide if you like them, with a return available is a safe way to find out if you get the 3D imaging that I get.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I will be away this weekend so no updates will come from me. I plan to pick up the Nordost Odin speaker cables on Monday at which point they will have over 200 hours of break in. Next week, the lampizator will travel to Poland so i can have it completely checked by their team because i want to be sure everything is 100% with it. Thanks to lampizator for being a class act with me. 
I might bring the momentum out of the box and play with the new cables i have and see what it does. It might be very interesting !
jafox
1,456 posts
 
@wym2
My "3D space" comments were relative to interconnects, not speaker cables, in the context of my system at the time: Clearaudio TT/Arm/Cartridge, Aesthetix Io & Callisto Sig, CAT JL-3 amps, SoundLab A1.  

@eziggy
I was a huge Magnepan fan and then sold them around 2000 or so.  Then I wanted them again so I went to the Minneapolis dealer a few years later who had a store full of all the Magnepan and ML speakers.  He gave me easily 3 hours of his time one afternoon as the store was not busy.  One by one, he rolled in each ML speaker he had to compare with the Maggie 3.5 and then later the 20.1.  There was not a single ML speaker that did anything for me compared to even the Maggie 3.5; the ML sound was just not my thing.....too sterile!  All electronics were ARC which is what I had at that time.  Even when I heard the CLS back in the early 80s at a Tucson dealer, my response was rather neutral.  By 2004/2005, I heard the SL A1's that made my Maggie 3.5 sound like kiddie toys and I never looked back.

I guess I would have to say that NBS Statement ICs 15 years ago was the start of my discovery of 3D presentation, but that was significantly improved upon by Purist Dominus, then onto Stealth Indra, Silent Source and the awesome Jade Reference Platinum/Gold.  Once I moved on from the Dominus, and I started to hear phenomenol tonal coherency and frequency extreme extension, I was no longer willing to give this up for cables that only excelled in the 3D performance.  Once you hear it all, you want it all.

The link so critical here is from line stage to amp(s).  Such cable differences between the DAC at the time (Manley Ref) and the Io phono stage into the Callisto, were nowhere near as dramatic which showed a pecking order that is quite different than what many others here report as the cables from source to line as being more critical.  Every time I had money to spend to update a 1-2m IC in my system, I compared it every where.  And the greatest differences were always into the amps.

As for speaker cables, after hearing my system fully loaded with KS Emotion, and then a mix of this and Dominus, I started to seek out a speaker cable not so expensive.  I recall the Coincident cables, the top model at the time, was very tonally coherent.  A Purist dealer sent me a huge box of various speaker cables and I discovered that the midline Opis model was outstanding with my system.  It was neck and neck with the Coincident and half the price and much less than the Dominus and KS.  I then compared the Opis a few years later to the Jade Audio speaker cables which just added a a little more extension on the top.  But the Opis is one of those awesome values I have come across along the way.  It is a keeper.

With all my cable listening efforts here, speaker cable differences with the JL3's and the A1's were just not all that dramatic.  Huge differences in piano decays, tracking a musician moving around the stage, etc., were not huge like comparing ICs.  So again, my experiences don't track with so much that is shared here.  And except for a couple speaker cables that had serious peak/valley tonal issues and were immediately dismissed, most speaker cables that I tried were "acceptable"; this was not at all the case for ICs.

I have since moved the A1s upstairs with a project to do a HT setup with all electrostatic speakers.  SF Amati Futura speakers are now mated with the JL3's in my basement music system.  The system rack has been pushed to the side of the room so now my IC quest has started from scratch as I need a RCA cable 4-5m long for the amps between the speakers.  I have 2 long Transparent Audio ICs to arrive in a few days.  These are the latest Ref MM and Ref XL.  From all I have read, these could be stunning with the Futuras being heard like never before.  And then I can investigate the justification to try a speaker cable at a much higher cost than I have considered trying in the past.
zprr
306 posts
 
jafox - thanks for providing that background. Incredible journey and definitely some ICs in particular to try out based on your recs.  ICs seem to be particularly important. For further context, have you experimented with the wireworlds and/or the Nordost 2 series specifically as ICs, PCs or speaker cables?
viber6
2,448 posts
 
jafox,
Thanks for your detailed descriptions of your experiences.  I now better know your tastes.  My first good speaker was the Maggie Tympani 1D which I loved for its spaciousness and good accuracy.  Then I realized that electrostatic transducers are more accurate than planar magnetics.  I understand and agree with your assessment of ML stats as being "sterile" compared to Maggies, but what many people call "sterile" I regard as accurate.  We hear the same things but have different tastes and preferences.  I belong to a NY musical club named "The Bohemians" whose performances are held in a small 100 seat hall with a high ceiling and no carpeting.  I sit in the front row in the middle, within a few feet from singers, 6 foot Steinway grand piano and other players.  From this seat, I am shocked at how powerful and RAW the singers sound, of course unamplified.  The sound is dynamic to the max, full, but definitely not sweet and seductive.  There is smoothness but definitely not the kind of lush quality that may be heard in a typical midhall seat about 75-100 feet away.  The sound at my close seat is more like "sterile"--so I realized that like it or not, "sterile" is accurate.  The piano has a kind of iron-fisted impact, leaning in the direction of an anvil struck by a heavy metal hammer.  The piano sound is full, dynamic, but also sterile.  Most recordings are made with relatively close mikes with occasional mixing of distant mikes to get more hall ambience.  The recording perspective is more like my front seat than the midhall typical listener seat.  Therefore, for audio accuracy, "sterile" is the truth, although any listener is entitled to prefer a more lush midhall type of sound.  As for you and me, I will better understand whether I might be interested in any component you evaluate based on your honest descriptions.  Thanks for that.
mr_bill
347 posts
 
3 days since last post of any kind - record
dguitarnut
136 posts
 
I love RadioShack speaker wire. Before they closed I bought all the remaining    stock in the 2 local stores near me!.....yay for me!    Great synergy with my Rane equalizer and Tekton speakers.  I may part with a 25ft roll or 2 if the price is right.
Just remember what Nordost charges per foot before you make me an offer!

Post removed 
psnyder149's avatar
psnyder149
160 posts
 
dguitarnut,

Please save the 25 ft rolls, this way I can come over and listen to your system.  When it sounds great with the zipcord, I can use the rolls to hang myself!  When it sounds like crap, I can still use the zipcord to hang myself...  A win, win all the way around!!!  lol
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
WCSS,
You mentioned that you sent the Lampi back to Poland. With their trade in policy, wouldn't it make sense to get the XLR output preamp either put in or get that model? Should sound a whole lot better. It's a possibility, and it's right there in Poland now. Just a thought.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
dguitarnut, +10.
psnyder149, +10.
pokey77
1,267 posts
 
@mr_bill 

fyi, back on 2/26, WC said he would be away this weekend so there would no updates from him.
eziggy
137 posts
 
Jafox, totally get where you are coming from.  Was just asking since a friend and I were listening to a well recorded album on my MLs with all AQ cabling (speaker + interconnects) and we literally thought someone walked in the room since the sound had such a 3D soundstage.

As Viber mentioned, MLs are probably some of the most unforgiving speakers I have heard.  Hit it with an amazing setup and source, and it can be unreal.  Bad source = generally bad experience.  But I have never heard Maggies to compare with which are also supposed to be fantastic.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
eziggy,
Right.  You could say that ML stats are accurate, which is the same as unforgiving.  I just wouldn't go so far to say that bad source = bad experience.  On my Audiostatic 240 stats, I can certainly hear the flaws of a particular recording, such as 1980's digital.  But I love the overall clarity and just ignore the few moments of digititis, so it is still mostly a good experience.  I prefer this situation to one in which I am listening to a forgiving system where even though there are no nasty moments, everything is mediocre and boring.  I want audio to be exciting.

WC, another woman analogy for you.  A famous model of 20-30 years ago (Cindy Crawford?) had a mole near her left lip.  This became her unique trademark.  You would certainly enjoy being with her and forget about her mole.
jafox
1,456 posts
 
@zprrI have no experience with Wireworld products.  A few months ago I saw what looked like a most impressive Wireworld speaker cable pair on consignment at a local audio store.  I was very tempted to try them out, but I needed to stay focused then to try different amps with my basement speakers and to also find longer pairs of ICs.  I am now set with the amps as I fired back up the CAT amps and found much success with an RCA Transparent Audio cable this weekend.  But I am already eager to try the next TA model up the line.  

I shuffled furniture, moved pictures on the walls, removed a bookcase, removed a rug off a wall, and now the room is more lively than before.  So perhaps after I tame the room a bit, I will be ready to try speaker cables, and perhaps the Wireworld products.  As for Nordost, I heard a friend's system with all the Valhalla and I did not like it at all.  Ultimately he abandoned that too and created his own cable line.  That was the top Nordost product at the time and I feel that if I do not like a company's top product, the designer(s) and I have a different set of preferences and so I typically move on to audition other product lines.  So it is highly unlikely I will audition Nordost unless someone came over and insisted I give them a try.
jafox
1,456 posts
 
@eziggy,
I try to be careful with the words I use when I describe component or system auditions.  Some words off limits for me are, accuracy, transparency and truth.  A favorite word used by many is synergy but this can be more seen as a means to compensate one component's flaws with those of another.  Two products might have wildly different tonality but when mated together result in a "neutral" or "accurate" system result.  I experienced this mistake when I had a cable designer visit my home 10 years ago and one by one we replaced each cable in my system with one from his line.  When we got to the final IC, and inserted his IC, the sound took a goofy turn for the worse.  But upon putting his speaker cables in, the sound came back into check.  It was very clear that I had done a mighty fine job to mix products with serious complimentary flaws to result in "system synergy".  

In 1981 I heard the outstanding Accoustat 2+2 speakers at a so cal dealer.  These are the 8-feet tall doubly stacked flat panels that were 2 feet wide as I recall.  Oh my, this was impressive.  I few years later I heard the ML CLS at a Tucson dealer and the impression was not at all the same; it was very disappointing.  And then a couple years later, I heard the Stax electrostatic speakers at a Phoenix dealer.  Oh my, that sound too was incredible!  These were 5-6 feet tall, maybe 2 feet wide and flat panel.  Was the curved panel design of the ML the culprit of my conclusions?   Maybe, but I clearly was not anti-electrostatic speakers.  It just showed me that not all electrostatic speakers are created equal.

I used the word, sterile when I heard the ML speakers line in Minneapolis 15 years after that.  To me a sterile sound does not imply accuracy, but rather it describes that the minute I hear music from that system, I have no feeling that I am at a live event; there is no emotional connection maybe because of fatigue, dimensional flatness, compressed dynamics, unnatural tonality, etc.  

Isn't what we all seek here is to sit down in front of our music system and escape to believe even for a short time that we are listening to the real event? The ML experiences did not bring this on for me.  If this is what people describe as truth, they can have it.  And the Minneapolis dealer was using his top ARC products at that time.  I do not recall the source.  But a change to the Magnepans, and yes, some exaggerations with bigger images than reality, but for me, there was a pull for me into the performance.

And then in 2005, I heard the huge SoundLab U1 and A1 models.  Never before had I experienced an electrostatic speaker as this.  And surprise, surprise, it was curved but it was tonally coherent, most impressive clarity and dynamics (with the CATs) and had outstanding portrayal of space.  I truly was unprepared for what I heard and this has everything to do with why I own these today, for over a decade.

Perhaps the latest ML line addresses the concerns I had with their products years ago, but I have no desire to change what I have unless I am ready to significantly downsize my speakers or systems.
avcr79
20 posts
 
Very interesting post !
i personally think the new ml line is far better than previous models. 

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
All-
odin 1 speaker cables will be picked up tomorrow at which point they will have 216 hours total break in time by the nordost machine dealers use.
I am also picking up another Odin 1 powercord to use with the ref10. What’s my intent?
Simple, to do my first cable shoot out. I will do 2 nordost Odin 1 powercords plus nordost Odin 1 speaker cables Versus Shunyata alpha NR powercords and speaker cables.
This will be done probably next weekend once I have allowed all cables to settle.
Stay tuned. We will see what kind of improvement the Odin cables will do (if any) that the Shunyata alpha nr can’t do (or may be it will?)


eziggy
137 posts
 
Viber, you are totally right.  Didn’t mean to make it absolute.  It all depends on occompanying equipment as well and it’s hard ever that bad.

Jafox, great post - for me when I say transparent is more to describe when speakers can let you hear every little thing that you change in the system.  I have heard ML speakers that sound super thin and sterile and hear another setup with same speakers and they sound like being at a live concert.  Different than accuracy.  I was picking up interconnects and a Meridian streamer from a local dealer and he was telling me the same thing.  They sold a pair of 13As right before I got there and he was saying how the buyer was floored at the difference he heard from thier setup (matched with Rowland monoblocks and AQ cables) compared to other demos he heard.  

I think ML has definitely improved over the years, just haven’t compared with much earlier models.  But as you said it’s all synergy and above all personal preference.  One person’s “this sounds terrible” is another person’s “best thing ever!”
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
ODÍN speaker cables are back. 216 hours of break in time. I also have 2 more ODÍN power cords. Things are about to get interesting again :)
jafant's avatar
jafant
19,662 posts
 
whitecamaross
A cable shoot-out - Now, that is what I am talking about!Staying tuned.  Happy Listening!
pokey77
1,267 posts
 
@whitecamaross

Very interested to see how this goes. I've heard Nordost many times and do like their house sound. Mostly Frey2, Tyr 2, Valhalla 2. Have heard Odin 2 once or twice.

I have a new system and will be working on power cords next along with power conditioning. And I've been looking at Shunyata Research and their NR line of cables along with Nordost and will probably look at least at a few other brands and then try to demo a few and make a choice like you are doing. It will be very interesting how the 15X Odin 1 fairs against the Alpha NR. I'm not sure that that will be a fair gun fight (only based on price delta)  but wouldn't it be amazing if you find you like the SR stuff better?! Do you have any power conditioning?

So I guess you have had the Nordost stuff on the Vidar? I need to talk to my dealer about that.
pokey77
1,267 posts
 
Concerning the Odin 1 vs Alpha NR, meant 10X, not 15X. Not really sure on the full retail on that cord but the Odin 2 is around $15k.
avcr79
20 posts
 
Nice 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
3 minutes into the listening session and the sound is somewhat slower with the nordost speaker cables which is the only thing I’ve swapped out. I also find myself having to turn up the volume higher with the nordost speaker cable for some reason as if these cables place a Bigger load on the amps.
I have to let music flow through these cables for about 48 hours so they can settle in my system and then do a real comparison.
I also have decided to use an Odin powercord on the preamp but I’ll do that later during the week. FYI, the only things running from the shunyata are the block audios and oppo. The preamp and speakers are plugged into the wall.
i remember the Odin powercord not sounding good at all when I first plugged it in and then on the 3rd day I was hearing a crazy amount of stuff that blew my mind. Will this be the same for the speaker cables? We shall see... the fate of the Odin speaker cable will be known in the next few days. 
zprr
306 posts
 
welcome back WC! excited to hear how things evolve and for this multi-phased shootout

jafox - thanks for your candid response and providing the additional context
w1000i's avatar
w1000i
70 posts
 
@WC Any improvement in room acoustic treatment ?
trudat
60 posts
 
How does a cable break in?

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Wireworld Platinum 8 xlr vs Shunyata alpha nr xlr:
1. Wireworld platinum 8 has monstrous soundstage making the shynyata sound narrower
2. Shunyata has great overall balance. Nothing really missing but as soon as you change to the platinum 8, the sound just opens up wall to wall.

Looks like I’m back to wireworld 8 interconnects once again. I prefer their big wide sound.
Odin Speaker cables are still not quite there yet for me. That said I need more time here in order to see what happens as I add more Odin pieces in the mix.
Will I return to wireworld speaker cables? My heart says I probably will but I want to convince myself that there’s a reason why nordost Odin speaker cables are so much money. There’s gotta be a reason but so far their speaker cables are nowhere near as impressive as their powercords. Time will tell what happens here.
jafant's avatar
jafant
19,662 posts
 
whitecamaross
Nordost Odin can take many hundreds of hours to bloom. Be patient.
Happy Listening!
This discussion is closed
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