Please note:
Comparing the two videos above isn't apples to apples. The missing component is the Boulder 2110 which is serious. We still haven't tried a standalone Preamp so we don't know how it will open up.
I wrapped up a face to face interview with Mike from Suncoast audio yesterday. He was in my room listening to the M6 and i managed to get his impressions on the soulution and pass labs set up.
You will all be shocked at what he preferred... |
kren0006,
I understand why you prefer the 20.7 to the GTA. The 20.7 is much wider than the GTA, which yields a fuller bass on the 20.7. But the GTA has greater clarity from the midrange on up. The next best speaker for clarity to the GTA is the Alexx. I applaud the designer of the Alexx, who has made a speaker that offers everything in good measure. Forget about judging things based on money. If someone who wants more mid and lower bass took the GTA and used an EQ to boost mid bass, that would be great for them. Actually, the designer of my thin Audiostatic panels did this with his mirror drive transformer, but I don't like it, so for my tastes I would rather live with thinner bass and choose highest clarity for the higher range of freq.
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Yeah, not speaking in terms of quality of bass, but @viber6 totally missed ported vs sealed type speakers with Alexx vs M6. |
ron17,
Yes, the M6 does sound slightly rolled off in the top HF, even through my mediocre computer system which is rolled off anyway.
Listen to the thunder at around 1:40. The thunder rumble is low volume bass, but also you hear the crack of thunder best on the GTA. The crack of thunder is much higher midrange and HF. The GTA and especially my unique electrostatics + Enigmacoustics tweeter best reveal the higher overtones of natural bass instruments, which enables me to psychoacoustically enjoy bass on my limited bass system. |
I'd already judged the Maggie 20.7 as preferable to that speaker, so no interest in revisiting. If others are, that's fine, preferably on another thread but I guess that's up to WC. This thread is about Alexx / M6 / Boulder / Gryphon / Soulution level stuff at this point. That level of stuff was page 1 of the thread, 300 pages ago. |
Good points kren0006. For convenience, here is a repost of the GTA on this song. Steve's recording of the GTA uses the same microphone as Jay. Many people will say that the lower range of the voice is very thin by comparison to either M6 or Alexx, and I agree. However, I was present at the recording, and must say that hearing the system in person, the voice was not thin as it is on the video. It was lifelike, and shows that these dynamic speakers make the voice fuller and veiled by comparison. The guitar and upper range of the voice are much more focused/detailed on the GTA, with the background instruments much more airy and spacious with sparkle on the guitar. The GTA is using the euphonic tube Lampi dac and euphonic Pass electronics, and yet if you can listen through the thinner lower midrange/upper bass, there is greater clarity from the GTA. The total GTA system cost is much lower than either M6 or Alexx, so once again I say that cost does not equate to quality. I welcome hearing the M6 with top Boulder/Gryphon/Soulution 700 series electronics and will keep an open mind, but for now, I believe that properly implemented lowest mass planar magnetic/ribbon and electrostatic drivers cannot be beaten by dynamic drivers for lifelike clarity. https://youtu.be/B8jm25r6Saw |
I like Alexx better but for different reasons than Viber does. I also can’t really say I concur with his assessments of the clarity/brightness qualities the way he described it, but that’s subjective - everyone hears differently.
For me it’s still a Coke/Pepsi thing. Alexx==Coke. M6==Pepsi. |
Thank you viber for providing 2 links to the same song Alexx vs M6. What I hear in these 2 demos is not what you described. I heard more clarity and focus with the M6's. The Alexx sound somewhat veiled in comparison. The vocals are slightly forward with the M6's and way more separated from the acoustic guitar. The soundstage was greater with the M6 with accent electric guitars more pinpointed and focused within the soundstage. I heard a little more thump (weight) from the kick drum on the Alexx. The thunder @ around 1:40 was more clearly heard with the M6's. The M6's do sound ever so slightly rolled off on the very top...but that being said I still hear more detail and focus on the top end of the M6's. I much prefer the M6's presentation (on this track).
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Not how I hear it. The Alexx has this added ‘echo’ around everything, the image is not well defined and somewhat smeared. The voice on the M6 is focus, and it is clearly in front of everything else, unlike the Alexx more homogeneous, diffuse presentation. The M6 sounds louder with more dynamic contrast, even though they are both playing at the same level.
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Good stuff Viber. Will be interesting to see if WC agrees with you. Usually he has a bit of a preference bias toward whatever is currently in the room. Maybe that is because his typical progression is to move upward in cost which can often result in better quality (not always of course).
Interesting to note that M6 is over 50% more expensive than Alexx, and now we have at least two forum members preferring Alexx, for whatever that is worth when comparisons are over YT.
Yes I’m willing to wait until the M6 gets better electronics so that it is a fair comparison, but I would submit that the fair comparison point is when M6 gets electronics that total $60-70k less than what the Alexx had, to even the total cost, given that M6 costs about that much more than Alexx.
Come to think of it, perhaps we are already there (fair total cost comparison) with the Soulution? Probably close anyway - same dac, for starters. Then Soulution costs equal at least to Gryphon preamp, and Mephisto within the cost delta of Alexx to M6. So there you go. M6 with Soulution greater total cost than Alexx with Gryphon pairing, at least I think so. Probably not there yet as to the Boulder pairing with Alexx.
Also, Alexx now not even a current product, but a legacy product, FWIW, with the new replacement now out. fwiw |
Convenient repost of Jay's videos of Alexx and M6 on the song, Iron Hand, with my analysis. https://youtu.be/gueDCNUAapI. This is Alexx with the best electronics. https://youtu.be/VEjje1WCvFw. This is M6 with Soulution integrated. On my computer, these videos are top quality and enable comparisons. Whatever colorations there are from my computer system, they are the same for both videos, so I believe that similar differences would be heard hearing the system live in Jay's room. Only Jay knows for sure. I hear the M6 as darker, warmer, less brilliant in upper midrange/HF, than the Alexx. There may be more information/accuracy in the lower freq on the M6, while the Alexx shows more clarity in the freq from midrange on up. The male voice on this song has the lowest fundamental note of A which is 110 Hz, so this recording is mainly a test of the lower midrange up through HF. The opening guitar is more brilliant on the Alexx, as a test of upper midrange and HF. The M6 has three 10.5" woofers; Alexx has one 10.5" and one 12.5" woofer, so the total air excursion for the M6 is greater than the Alexx for bass. But the Alexx has 2 midrange drivers, and M6 only one, so the Alexx seems to be designed for more midrange clarity. Then the Alexx has the resistors which is a form of EQ for the drivers, allowing for adjustment of tonal balance. The interesting thing is that although the M6 cabinet, drivers and its tweeter may be more sophisticated than the Alexx, the overall design and voicing shows that the Alexx gives more clarity and aliveness than the M6, at least from lower midrange on up. I defer to others regarding the bass, which I can't analyze just from this song. Is the M6 handicapped by the Soulution, compared to the Boulder electronics on the Alexx? Probably yes, although I believe that the upper range brilliance of the Alexx design is a much bigger factor. It is likely that other resistor adjustments on the Alexx would create a completely different tonal balance. This is another example of my long experience with the benefits of any form of EQ, whether in the speaker crossover electronics or Rane, etc. It is valuable for the owner to have flexibility in tailoring tonal balance for his preferences. All things considered, the presentation of the Alexx from Jay's video is the best dynamic speaker system I have heard, from lower midrange on up. |
Yep, I don’t expect jay to do vinyl, it’s just too time consuming and meticulous. You could spend as much time setting up properly for as he does to change out a complete system. Plus lots of variables it adds to the system with additional hardware that in itself introduces new variables. If you like what the 500 integrated does, the 700 seperates do indeed add more. Soulution provides clarity, detail, and transparency. Some may not consider it the most dynamic, but what it dosnt do is over enhance any one area. If it’s coming from the source, it will let you hear it. The Magicos accentuate those attributes to some extent also. Will be intresting to hear them with something that displays the bass performance of the speakers and the source material. ( in other words, would be nice to hear music that provides it in spades, on equipment that can reproduce it to the same extent, lol) whatever does Jay have in mind for us. It’s like the cliffhanger at the end of a season finale. Only we don’t have to wait so long to find out how it plays out. |
Don’t hold your breath on analog guys. Not in 2021 I don’t think but maybe 2022. But bank on it WC has a more expensive (than Rossini and clock), more analog sounding dac on the way that he’ll unveil pretty soon |
Very pleased to hear that analog may be considered.
Frankly, I have difficulty listening to so much SS and digital.
To my ear, they are both shrill.
Continuum TT is surely at the top. To hear the drive and pace of vinyl, my choice is a Woodsong Garrard 301, Tri-planar arm and Lyra Atlas cartridge.
And for phono stage and preamp, an Atma-Sphere MP-1.
Save an outboard phono stage, IC and still get excellent performance. Simple and superior. And combining a tube pre and SS amp is a classic solution. |
Continuum turntable ? Ypsilon phono stage ? |
Different approaches to sound reproduction.
More to come over the next few weeks before I begin to push the envelope with electronics.
Does Jay have vinyl coming? Tube front end? Just wait and see...this is going to get better and better with each video. |
I see. Only 200 hours on speakers.
Regardless of the differences in electronics, Wilson and Magico are strikingly different. Besides other things, Magico have this soaring character while Wilson are down to earth. |
A couple of things:
1. The amplifiers in here are a couple of notches below the monster gryphon Mephisto and boulder hence less bass
2. Sealed cabinet bass is different. It hits you when it has to hit you. No extension felt unless called for.
3. Speakers have about 200 hours of total playtime. They shall improve over the next few weeks.
4. You are hearing more of "what is".
5. There is bass here But the speaker won’t give it to you without the proper ancillary equipment. |
Jay, I wanted to ask a question about bass. Definitely not enough of it. Why is that ? Are both pieces fully burnt in ? Not enough power/current ? |
Absolutely stunning clarity. Hearing so deep into the recording it's spooky.
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Well, frankly both pepsi and coca-cola suck big time. Give us a beer or water. |
To continue the soda discussion, sounds very "Pepsi-ish." (WC knows what I mean based on an analogy he used, oh, about 120 pages ago on this thread).
I’m more of a Coca-cola guy, but Pepsi’s good too. |
Soulution appears to be a great match, I am sure separates would do better. I won't comment when you post video with Pass amps, I reject Pass sound signature no matter the speakers or source quality. |
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Is the Soulution class A or AB or class A until certain point and then AB ?
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First rate sound, just excellent. I still wish for more power but it's alright as it is. Such a transparent clear soundscape. Nothing sterile about it, it's just digital. |
Thanks Dave. Each song sounds different. Im glad you picked that up.
Do you recall me mentioning about the "8K" tweeter in the Magico m6? this is what you also hear with these tracks. You can feel and hear how "inferior" (by comparison) the 1st track is to the 2nd or 3rd track right? That is EXACTLY what this speaker is easily able to do that others didn’t quite capture. This differentiation is much more apparent here by way of the lack of "refinement" or "resolution" with different tracks. That said, we have to also give it to the Soulution 530 integrated because it is indeed quite transparent. With Pass Labs you get a more mellow presentation that does not really take on this "digitized" feeling; It simply takes the digital signal, adds its sweeteners, processes it and then serves it to you without any "weird" aftertaste.
This aftertaste is what could be identified as "digital, artificial".
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WC,
There’s a few comments about the sound being sterile. I liked the sound - I thought it was clear, but not sterile. If anything, the first song did not impress me as much (perhaps closest to sounding somewhat blah or sterile?), but the rest of it sounded really good - seemed to get better as the video went on.
Dave
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Introducing the Magico M6 and Soulution on my channel: https://youtu.be/VEjje1WCvFw*************************headphones please********************************* Your ipad/iphone/android phone can’t capture all the information and detail found here. If possible, pay extreme attention to the 2nd song on the video and close your eyes. |
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WC,
Before this Soulution integrated, what has been the most expensive integrated amp you've had? |
Video of the M6 and Soulution with full Synergistic Research Galileo SX cables releasing at 12pm ET today. here is the list of associated equipment: - Magico M6 with MPODs
- Soulution 530 integrated
- DCS Rossini with clock*
- Synergistic Research Galileo SX speaker cables
- Synergistic Research Galileo SX XLR
- Synergistic Research Galileo SX Ethernet cable
- Synergistic Research Galileo SX PC on integrated
- Synergistic Research Ground block
- Ansuz C2 Mainz powercord on DCS Rossini
- Audioquest Dragon PC on clock
- Artesania Exoteric stand for integrated
*Dac and clock are connnected into the Audioquest Nagra 5000. Everything else is connected into the wall. Please note: This is our starting point with the M6. We will only go up the ladder from here when it comes to electronics. Future videos with Magico M6 include Pass labs Xp32 with pass labs xa60.8 monoblocks. Soon after that, we will begin with the usual suspects in terms of electronics. |
@kren0006
Yes, TX is too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. Just one reason I'd not move there. I really enjoy my visits there though.
Long listening sessions come with a well-dialed-in system. WC is not there yet with this one, just give him some time. |
Kren
I haven’t had long listening sessions just yet because I’m accomodating the speaker. When I had the alexx i had the electronics for it. Im doing things slowly with the m6... I want to watch them grow if that makes sense. |
I don’t think diet Dr Pepper tastes especially close to real thing but the 10 calorie version (Dr Pepper Ten) is amazing.
Best of any of the Tens
tx- too f’in hot |
What I’m most interested in with this speaker is how many long listening sessions til 2-3am have they evoked? WC hasn’t mentioned any yet like he always did with the Wilson’s.
Little worried. 8k must look impressive initially but if eyes start hurting after couple hours ....
Hoping I’m wrong and just reading too much into the lack of long listening session mention to this point. After all, if they don’t keep you glued to the chair nothing else much matters, regardless of how they sound in short sessions
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@astewart8944
Yep, I was with my childhood friend from New Braunfels very recently and he loves diet Dr. Pepper. He says it tastes just like regular. I love DP too, but always get regular and when it is not available, I get Mr. Pibb. Root beer next.
@whitecamaross
I like Texas a lot myself. In addition to the "Big horsepower cars, big homes, plenty of space..." you have really nice folks too. Something we don't really have much here in SoCal. Just a different culture. |
Interesting... I have thought about moving to Texas actually... Big horsepower cars, big homes, plenty of space... |
Dr. Pepper is the official soft drink of Texas. Born in Waco. And I like the analogy. Texans can't understand why Dr. Pepper isn't everywhere. It is a natural part of their world.
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Correct. I need to slow down a little with speakers.
I want to transition back to amps and potentially replacing my source in the near future. |
Top electronics exposes speakers, this Magico is going to be exposed too, as the Wilson was. But even not top, just pretty good, electronics like Soulution 530 will show enough. I personally don't really have any bias, that's I don't care which speakers will sound better to me. As with the amps, before hearing those Boulders my preference was Gryphon, and I had no idea about D'Agostino sound. Now I would choose either Boulder or D'Agostino and would pass Gryphon, except Diablo. But even with Diablo I might actually prefer overall top Accuphase integrated, not sure, would to a degree depend on speakers too.
In any case, this thread is mostly about amplifiers, Jay just brought in very controversial and polarizing brand. Wilson, most people are at least OK with. |
That's how it was displayed at the florida audio expo in 2019...it was indeed amazing. |
The perfect match for those Magico M6 tweeters would sure be a pair of Luxman M-900u , with the matching preamp C-900u.
I would bet my house it would be a case of perfect synergy here.
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I don't know what soft drinks doctors like. All soft beverages are bad because of the sugar. I only drink kombucha, plain tea, coffee, water. Years ago, a study on diet coke showed no weight loss compared to regular coke, very surprising. The chemical sweeteners stimulate the appetite more than sugar. Both chemicals and sugar cause damage to the intestinal lining, resulting in "leaky gut" which is the gateway to many autoimmune diseases. Most doctors don't know this, and are busy prescribing dangerous immunosuppressive drugs for these autoimmune diseases. Very few doctors are health conscious, and are the medical equivalent of hifi salesmen.
Jay, you are very muscular, which is healthy. I'd be curious to know what your body fat % is. I like these body fat scales you can buy for $30-60 and use at home anytime. |
@thezaks:
When i said " I dont want to hear", I meant it as "i don’t consult or gather input". It was not to restrict any form of opinion from being shared here. Opinions is what this is all about anyhow, but that does not mean i personally let them shape my own. I am also not trying to shape anybody’s opinion on what sounds good to them.
The most abrasive part of giving an opinion is when it is not substantiated with facts behind it (whatever they might be). I don’t take any negative comments or attacks towards Magico or Wilson personal because i am not under their payroll, they don’t sign my checks, i am not sponsored by them. Let them go to battle with their own critics.
I do, however, feel a bit surprised that some of the nastiest criticism comes from those who have limited exposure or experience with the brands you all see regularly on my youtube channel.
Also, i am not strictly speaking only about this thread or my channel. This is a holistic feeling that i have about critics.
Sorry for not making it clear before. |
"I don't really want to hear from the person who has not spent time with the item (and again this is no disrespect). "
Well, that might apply to most of us here. Should we not comment then on what we hear in your videos? Is your intention to limit our comments so that we don't make comparisons between speaker brands, based upon what we hear in your videos?
Dave
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nah.
My entire goal was to land here with the M6. Once i owned the Alexx, i knew a small speaker like the M3 would not be sufficient to satisfy the large scale that the Alexx got me used to. It is a curse to own big, huge sounding speakers.
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Makes sense. I agree that Wilson and Magico are very different.
Probably comparisons between Magico and Focal (which you know well) will be more appropriate. I hope this one isn't skitzo like that last Magico you had : ) |
I can't replace with Alexx V until later this year or next year. I need to let the "hype" die off first. Besides, i have a lot of plans for this M6 with electronics i have never owned. I have done Wilson long enough to understand what it does and it does not do. I don't feel i know the M6 as much as i know any Wilson speaker.
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I doubt if too many hate a brand of anything just for the sake of it.
Perhaps they just don’t like how it sounds.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as the criticisms are reasoned and not over the top or full of hyperbole.
Let’s see how it goes
My guess is that this speaker gets replaced by AlexxV within 2 months |
