@kren0006
Do you own Wilson speakers? I'm feeling a viber/Rane thing going on here.
Do you own Wilson speakers? I'm feeling a viber/Rane thing going on here.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Poor Gryphon Antileon. Mephisto and 2150 score 97 and 98 respectively on the back of Wilson Alexx, while Antileon will be left out to dry with M6.......feel sorry for the warmer Gryphon : ) (joking kinda, but it’s probably not a coincidence that those amps scored the best on Wilson. - very expensive amps (Block, XS, CH, others) on lesser speakers scored lower I believe) |
well, i dont want to speak to soon since i am evaluating this device for only one hour so far, but i think i have just spent less than $1,000 dollars on a device that took my system to a whole new level. Anybody here who streams WILL benefit from this. I won’t give my full recommendation until i keep using it for a few days, but if you have a little bit of money stashed away and want to push your digital experience to newer heights, stay tuned here for more. |
and for those of you Analog guys who think that MC is better than MM Check this out https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc and this http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&am... where we analyze some MM type cartridges. |
Jay, Even my 35 year old Denon 305 cartridge still has brilliance AND it is smoother than my digital. When the 305 was in its early years, it wiped out my same digital in EVERY way. The miracle of live, unamplified music is that it is both brilliant and smooth. I know you want clarity and musicality, and I believe that vinyl is your ticket. So much more variety of tonalities in cartridges, than the differences in digital components. You may at present lack the experience of analog devotees, but you still have the attraction of high class speakers and electronics to show on youtube. I think that the tremendous variety of sounds you could present with varying analog systems would showcase the work you have already done with speakers and electronics. |
greyhound, I’m not sure that I can direct you to anything specific without a lot of legwork that I don’t have time for. You could search the posts of Mike lavigne (hope I spelled that correctly) as he has often commented on his (and all who have compared the two in his system) preference for vinyl over digital - he’s got analog and digital systems well into the six figures at least. Anyway like I said, I don’t have an opinion but many have VERY strong opinions on it and I was just conveying what I perceived to be the consensus. I won’t argue with you on it if you feel differently. My impression from what I’ve read often on A’gon (though I can’t cite where) is that those who’ve done the comparisons feel that to get analog to sound better you need to spend over $5-10k (somewhere in there) on TT/cart/arm/phonopre/etc for it to beat a 5-10k dac/ streamer. It’s all subjective of course. Maybe it comes down to one’s definition of budget system (and on this thread that REALLY gets skewed) |
I know there is a huge crowd for Vinyl. I understand why that is. Who knows if there will be another source down the road that can come close to Vinyl and i don’t mean a dac. For now, i don't think there is a dac that can close the gap regardless of the price. Dacs are getting more expensive because they are working harder and harder to remove the digital artifacts and lower noise and get closer to analog. That said, the issue is that no matter how expensive a dac is, we are still at the mercy of the crappy streaming services. |
@ kren0006 In contrast to what Viber suggests in last post, prevailing wisdom on A’gon seems to be that it is much easier to get stellar digital performance for value expenditure than it is for analog, mostly because dacs/streaming have come so far recently that a couple grand or less will get you very good digital performance. NOT TRUE. Trust me Vinyl wins at a much lower cost to performance, just like Viber said. Please direct me to all of that prevailing wisdom on Audiogon Sorry ,I edited this . It should go before WCs comment to me about Vinyl being better . |
@grey9hound I don't doubt that Vinyl would be a much better experience than digital. I heard some recording from 1955 over at suncoast and i couldn't believe the realism. It was spooky to say the least. The voice sounded natural, the instruments were lacking the synthetic tone that digital often times adds to the music. It was impressive for sure man. |
In contrast to what Viber suggests in last post, prevailing wisdom on A’gon seems to be that it is much easier to get stellar digital performance for value expenditure than it is for analog, mostly because dacs/streaming have come so far recently that a couple grand or less will get you very good digital performance. Personally I don’t have an opinion on it bc like WC I don’t use vinyl, just recounting what I perceive to be the conventional wisdom of the moment. I think prevailing wisdom is still that a cost no object vinyl system will prevail over cost no object digital (mike lavigne for one who has systems that are multiples of what WC doing here says this) but the crossover point where vinyl takes over isn’t at the budget builds l don’t think, in contrast to what stated above. Anyway, there’s another long term investigative project for you WC: determine once and for all where that crossover point is that vinyl overtakes digital. Kinda like the question I asked Suncoast on where the crossover point from integrateds to separates is |
@Viber6 But digital remains artificial once you get exposed to what vinyl can do, as Mike Fremer says.I agree 100%. I am blown away with the performance of my Victor QLA-7 with the JVC Z1-S MM cartridge with a JICO DT-Z1S-B (SAS Boron cantilever). I am sure there is a lot better, but I am Impressed . I have heard my buddies Thorens TD-125 setup (supposedly very good) and I’ll take QLA-7. |
I find kren0006's scenario plausible about the eventual coronation of the DCS Vivaldi. I am looking forward to hearing the Rossini/MSB shootout, but the money is big, and I don't think the differences will be as great as for cartridges. In the 80's, I found enormous differences between sub $1000 top performing moving coil cartridges. 10-15 years ago I was considering the van den Hul Colibri which had a reputation for ultra fast detail, but I was nervous about the unprotected cantilever on that $7000 item. Some of today's SOTA cartridges are $15K, but any moving coil for $1000 can provide just as good sound of any flavor. SOTA vinyl offers so much fun trying many things for a MUCH smaller budget than SOTA digital. |
Turntables are great. You just need an amazing table, arm, arm wire, cartridge, platform, phono pre, high quality interconnect, etc. And yes, it will be very rewarding. But unlike having a digital source that is also optimized, and has access to Tidal & Qobuz, you still need to buy and store records. This is a major turn off for some and I'm not sure that Jay wants to futz with vinyl, but he'll let us know if he does. When I need a vinyl fix, I just visit my nearby dealer. |
I can hear the Thundering Hoofbeats of the Canadian Mounties as they cross the Border en route to Florida to arrest Jay. Should get there sometime in 2022. You’ve got 8 months to pack up your gear and get out of Dodge City buddy!! :) Is Miss Behavior related to Miss Elizabeth of WWF Fame?? Learn how to spell please. Almost as bad as the guy who spells WASTE as Waist. |
I’m shaking in my boots. Grab your lawyer. They start at 799/hr. You might have to sell your Luxman. This would be the perfect time for you to crawl out of the room. You’ve been disruptive here and audiogon has that on record. Care to share with users here that you were already banned here by audiogon for a few weeks? Yes, in case you all don’t know, he was banned from posting on forums here and was granted access to post again if he was to behave and stop creating narratives. I’ll let the mods do their thing. |
WC today just issued a clear physical threat to me on this thread. It has been reported and noted by witnesses. Also, WC just confirmed this in his above post which has been noted also. My question to him and his close supporters , what do you all have so precious to loose in this audio journey that makes you use threat to another user because of his opinions?... |
All the texts and emails plus messages i received just now are thanking me for my response. There are people who actually want to see the channel and my future shoot outs. I don’t understand why there is always someone who loves to ruin it for the rest. It’s a threat if you feel you can’t put your money where your mouth is. As simple as that. |
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msb looks kind of cheap and ordinary sitting next to dcs. Not very impressive aesthetically, fwiw. Won’t matter I guess if it sounds better, but for $83k put some effort into the appearance! Maybe it looks better when powered up. As it is kinda looks like three old cableTV boxes stacked on top of one another.......hey, flip over to MTV, I think Real World is on now....... |
There are A LOT of flies on the wall that are quietly eager to hear the MSB vs DCS shootout. This includes people in high places from both companies. If you follow my channel, you should have seen the first images of both dacs sitting next to each other yesterday. Also, after speaking to high profile youtuber, he suggested i use this shootout as means to get me to the 5,000 subscriber mark which is something he has done to get to north of 40k subscribers himself. With that said, the shootout will happen once i reach 5,000 subscribers. I will promote the upcoming shootout on my future videos (please dont complain or get desperate). Once we have arrived at 5,000 subscribers, we will commence the showdown between 2 highly regarded dacs. All i ask is for you all to do your part and share my channel with your friends and over other platforms (facebook, instagram, ). If you visit other forums/sites, etc, please help spread the word. I am not asking for a dime, but rather just to do a small part. Can we hit 5k subscribers by the end of the month? i think so! Thanks for the support guys. I couldn’t do this without you all! |
I suspect what might happen here is that the msb reference will be better than the dcs rossini, but not so much that it completely blows it away. This will make WC wonder again about Vivaldi, so Rossini will be sold and Vivaldi will come back to face off with Reference. And WC will declare Vivaldi the winner -- check that, he probably won’t declare a straight-up winner (rarely does) -- but Vivaldi will be what he keeps. That takes us to Labor day. Especially once those VAC tubes that I’ve been predicting arrive in a month, dcs will be the better pairing there vs msb, though msb will probably prevail with the Gryphon and likely sound damn good in its own right. AlexxV by Halloween. M6 gone by 4th. Ahh, It’s just all so clear and easy to project ...... lol |
Hmm, I’m not so sure he would love that. Hands on maybe but also pretty much instant gratification or move on - basically opposite of what is required with vinyl tinkering. I’d like to see him give it a go as well, but I wouldn’t say that it will be something he will necessarily take to like a fish to water. But maybe as he gets older he will grow into it : ) Kinda like assuming someone who loves wrenching on high performance cars would be a perfect candidate to build model railroad setups. Maybe, but probably not much of a correlation. Anyway, my long-ago prediction for the WC/vinyl seance was the year 2022. Unfortunately, if it happens in 2022 I predict it will be over by 2023, lol. I think this msb vs dcs shootout will be kickass though. Probably the best shootout he has ever done. hopefully the dcs won't be sold and he'll keep both around for awhile so the shootout won't be one and done but will have some depth and context |
Jay, Since your early years involved working on cars, you are a hands on kind of guy. You will LOVE cartridge swapping, experimenting with cartridge mounting screws of different materials, adjusting VTA (vertical tracking angle) by listening (some arms allow this while listening!), resoldering delicate tonearm wiring to cartridge pins, trying different tonearm cables by Nordost and others, trying different resistive loading in phono preamps for different cartridges, trying different phono preamps. I had fun doing all this. I once had 3 turntables together--my Goldmund Studio, Win Labs direct drive, Win Labs belt drive. I transferred my tonearm/cartridge to all 3 tables, and learned what each table was doing to the sound. You are clearly an experimenter and would enjoy so many types of sound you can create. There is no absolute truth saying that vinyl is warmer than digital. There is so much variability in all the combinations of cartridge, tonearms, tables, phono preamps. I can assemble a vinyl system with much more clarity and sparkle than a digital system. Other people choose warm sounding components in each category, so their vinyl setups are indeed warmer than digital. But digital remains artificial once you get exposed to what vinyl can do, as Mike Fremer says. |
Of course it's "someone else's money", I have other ways to waist money but not on nearly the same grand scale. Important thing for us is if the top MSB will outperform the dCS and if so to what degree. It's a show. I didn't expect to dislike the Gryphon Anthileon that much. What's wrong with me ? Or with the Gryphon ? Or with both of us ? |
inna, We both have lots of turntable/arm/cartridge experience that Jay could profit from. I hope Mike at Suncoast shows Jay what is possible from a TT system. Indeed, a compatible cartridge/tonearm is where synergy truly exists, although each part of the cartridge/arm/TT system is important. Assuming compatibility, I found the most variability in cartridges, because the cartridge is most like the speaker, always the most important element in the chain. My Denon 305 moving coil, cheap at $600 in 1985 when I got it, is more analytical and crisp than any other cartridge much more expensive, although Jay will enjoy trying many cartridges which have all kinds of tonal flavors and will make much bigger differences than anything he has yet compared. Back in the 90’s, the same recording on LP and CD showed my Goldmund Studio TT + Alphason HR100S arm + Denon 305 to be much clearer than the CD. I have a Benchmark DAC 1, and although I have no experience with expensive dac’s it was a wipeout. My 305 still plays music well after 35 years, although now the CD is clearer. I recently got a refurbished 305, but there is no rush to install it, since I still enjoy the old 305. |
Yeah well, if you make $83k per day $83k for a dac is just fine. That thing probably costs $5k max to make, including so-called R&D. As for dealer's profit margin, speaking of Magico M6, they probably pay 50%-60% the retail price. It's good business if you can sell them. Comparing digital to analog is difficult. The foundation of analog is turntable itself/tape deck not tonearms and cartridges and even phono stages. Put $500 MM cartridge on $25k rig and you will get great sound no digital can touch. Anyway, waiting for that Californian dac to impress us. I know I won't be impressed because of the Gryphon in the chain, which I consider totally inadequate and euphonic. But I do think that Magico M6 is a musical speaker. This is not overall my preferred sound but it doesn't change my opinion. |
Sources are very important, such as the quality of recordings. Dac's are worth trying, although they are considered electronics and won't make as great a difference as the recording. My experience is that dac's are at least as critical as amps. An analogy to vinyl--recordings are still the most important factor, but phono cartridges are next, because they really are a speaker in reverse. Much less critical is the amp, in this case. The CD transport/streamer/dac is like the entire cartridge/tonearm/turntable system, so I think that this is a very worthwhile endeavor. |