My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
ron17, Bill Parish has a beautiful home in a nice semi-rural area of NJ. Several rooms with different size YG speakers. The huge room has the flagship Sonja XV. I didn't hear it because I didn't want to impose on him. A few years ago, a dozen or more hot shot reviewers came to hear the big one and wrote it up. Many people work from home, but imagine having all your goodies at your workplace. I couldn't get any work done between client visits. I saw people coming in from a distance, although I don't know about from LA. You would have fun making the trip. At the time, Bill liked the Audionet better than the Mola Mola Kaluga which sounded a little cool for him, but he thought the MM had the highest accuracy.
Also, Bill Parish at GTT Audio had the Kii Audio speakers in the basement. These contain several Mola Mola type amplifiers, kinda like the ultimate powered speaker, with sophisticated DSP, including a few EQ curves. All you need is a digital source. Very nice sounding package for $15K including stands, although I thought a small YG speaker was more revealing and natural. He washed an LP for me on his expensive ultrasonic cleaning machine. A very nice touch, better than fortune cookies at a Chinese restaurant. No, I am not his sales assistant--am just showing what a class act he is.
I have not heard KII Audio speakers yet, but they are apparently very good stuff... KII was cofounded by Bruno Putzeys, the creator/designer of NCore power conversion modules.... Bruno is also the lead designer of the KII speakers. Like with all circuits containing NCore modules, the distributed amplifiers in the KIIs would need a fairly extended break-in.... As my friend Jeff Rowland is very impressed with KII performance, I wonder if the pair at GTT were perhaps semi-fresh out of the box.
Guido--excellent question about break in of the Kii system. It didn't occur to me to ask Bill Parish about that at the time, which was long before we started communicating. Bill had the Kii in the nicely finished basement with concrete walls. But one of the YG speakers upstairs was clearly more transparent and natural. I know you have found a large difference in the sound of class D amps from beginning to about 700-1000 hours, but the difference between the YG and the Kii was a qualitatively vast difference like the kind usually experienced between any 2 speakers, so my impression is that this was not a break in type of difference. Still, I cannot be sure, since break in of the Kii would involve the drivers as well as the several internal Hypex Ncore amps inside the speaker, although break in of any speaker involves the drivers and the electronic crossover network. The Kii is still an interesting concept of how much bass dynamics and extension can be coaxed from such a small speaker.
I owned Acoustic Imagery Atsahs for over a year and I was hoping they would be my last amps based on the Ncore hype at the time. Didn't turn out that way. I have continued to wonder whether a different implementation of the NC1200 would provide different results and have looked at David Reich's Prometheus and more recently considered purchasing a pair of Mola Mola Kalugas but I keep coming back to the "something is missing" thing that I heard, or didn't hear. I used to wonder if I was the only one who thought something was missing with Ncore compared to conventional Class A or AB until I read the Mono and Stereo review of the Kaluga, which closely nailed what I was hearing;
"The familiar music didn`t sound much familiar through the MOLA MOLAs; in the midrange the voices did not posses enough dose of “human touch” to sound real. All notes were there but the illusion of musicians standing in front of me wasn`t convincing at all. The music didn`t sound inviting and involving, it was just… there. The emotional content was missing and the tonal colours were somewhat bleached.
For lovers of analog reproduction and concert goers the sound could also be quite fatiguing and plain boring."
The Audiodrom review goes a bit further in attempting to explain why some perceive something missing, including;
"Due to no overhang and smear it sounds different from what we are used to. Thus it actually may sound ‘less developed’ to some ears. The audiophile desire to hear the things ‘as they are recorded’ conflicts with the audiophile desire to hear the things ‘as I like them to hear’. Sorry guys, the Mola Mola Kaluga is the former case."
and,
"the timbres sound different that we know them, though they are very accurate, yet they miss a bit more ‘aliveness and light’."
It would be interesting to hear whether the 925s Guido owns or the Kii speakers overcome this trait.
For those of you who think that nos winglet tubes in the power supply chassis of the ref10 is a good thing, I’m not sure what you are all hearing but the stock kt88 tubes sound far better with more decay, soundstage width and depth and better mids. I can’t believe how amazing my ref10 is sounding right now that I’m back to stock tubes after having one of the nos tubes go out. The best my set up has sounded so far. I remember someone telling me that the stock tubes are what sounds best with the ref10 and I gotta agree.
For the REF 10 ,I thought the power supply tubes were the 6550 . One for each channel ..Correct ?Then it is 10 of the 6H30p (Russian tubes) Which is what was in my Lampi Big 6 BTW (i remember that number now . It used 2 and a 6F8G). I was not real tube knowledgeable at the time.
Interesting WC. I rolled Winged C SED 6550C and 6H30P-DRs in my ARC Ref 10’s and there is a night and day difference/improvement in the sound of my Ref 10’s with the rolled tubes. Where did you source your tubes?
im being told they were winged 6550c. It was just 2 of them in the power supply and the rest of the tubes are all stock on both chassis. Well I don’t know what to say but now that I put back the stock tubes and I’m in shock how good it sounds. THIS IS THE BEST my neoltihs have ever sounded. The bass causes an earthquake on the floor and now the depth and soundstage has increased but with more clarity. I’m beyond shocked. I’m not even using the NR sigma powercords on the amps. I’m using the stock powercords and I’m still in shock. It’s soooo balanced right now with great detail and bottom end.
Makes sense if one tube just bit the dust , they have been affecting the sound in a negative way . A new pair of winged c's might out perform the still in operating condition stock tubes.
Grey9hound, I wish I spent 2k - the 6H30-DRs are $299 each from “The Tube Store” and you need 10 of them. The sound of the DR’s with the Winged C’s transformed my Ref 10’s drastically over the Ref 10’s with the stock tubes. On another note, I borrowed two weeks ago my dealers Reference 160M monoblocks after a manufacturers event, where ARC’s Dave Gordon told me the 160M’s were better sounding them my Ref. 250SE’s. After an intense listening session with 8 other audiophiles we all concluded the 250SE’s were significantly better then the 160M’s. Now my 250SE’s do have two Winged C 6550C’s and one 6H30P-DR in the input stage - hmmmm.
mitch2, I have read your previous comments on other threads about the sound of Mola Mola Kaluga amps, quoting from the Mono and Stereo article. I believe the Audiodrom review tells it like it is. That is, the MMK is accurate, but many audiophiles prefer euphonics. Words like "alive", "glow" are in reality emotional descriptions of these euphonically oriented audiophiles, which is fine for them. As usual, reviews must be read with the psychology and preferences of the author in mind. They can be useful with these things in mind. Also, I never heard the Theta Prometheus, but Bill Parish said it was much warmer than the MMK. The Theta Dreadnaught has the same technology as the Prometheus, and WC long ago wrote about it. In my view, the best prospects for best buy accurate amps are the Rowland 535, Merrill Element 114 (yet to be released), and MMK. Guido says that Rowland has a neutral, revealing, smooth sound with good harmonic info, so for your tastes it may be the best prospect, since you didn't like the MMK. I am in the process of finding Rowland dealers so I can audition the 535, a great value at $6K.
WC’s latest experience with tubes is why I don’t care for them in my gear. Too much under performing possibilities. You never know when you have a partially bad one... This not my definition of ultra high end. For me , sota should be key in hand and no worries.
Techno, tubes are what they are. They’ve always been tubes that can pop. That’s just what all of us who like the extra “3D” effect are willing to do in order to get that. NOTHING matches the sound of tubes. Sure, some solid state gear have gotten closer but it’s still not the same. I was just like you in regards to not wanting to deal with tube issues but man once I heard tubes in my set up, I couldn’t go completely away from them.
Cavernous soundstage can be achieved without tubes.
It’s the coloring and sweetness that makes them special, just as vinyl. I could also fall for it, I know it can be intoxicating. Maybe I’ll borrow and try an ARC Ref 6 from my dealer sometime in the near future.
Remember, it’s not just the preamp. It’s the whole combination. I’ve tried the ref10 with other amps such as the bat600se and I didn’t think there was synergy. Bringing the ref6 won’t give you the entire picture.
WCSS ...So you mean the winged C 6550 was in there , not kt88s? ? What is stock 6550 .....which brand and model # please ? @jonaiken ..WOW that is a lot of money for tubes
Techno, ref10 is like a yatch in the ocean. Huge, relaxed and smooth. The ref6 is like a speedboat. Fast, quick and in your face. They both are different in many ways. It’s like comparing a 3 series bmw to a 7 series... I’m not sure that riding in a 3 series gives you the experience of a 7 series. Totally different price points for both preamps too.
WC your talking about tubers but what tubes, 6550 or KT88, sounds like you really don't know what tubes you have or put in the ref 10 and at your level thats unbelievable. You should know exactly what your putting in and what you have.
WC, Although I have not heard either ARC ref 6 or 10, from your description the fast precise character of the ref 6 means that it is more accurate. Smooth and relaxed means rolled off and euphonic even if you like it. Years ago I heard the ARC SP 6B preamp which was fast and accurate, although probably inferior to current ARC products. When I got Roger Modjeski's tubes for my Theta preamp, it lost a little sweetness but got transformed into an exciting, accurate unit with sparkle. Remember, you like sparkle. It seems like ARC makes the finest, accurate tube products that retain some typical tube sound. ARC is refined, never in your face like some sterile SS stuff. Now that you have the Neo which is on the relaxed side, you might enjoy the synergy with the ref 6. That's why you sold the Esoteric which made the overall sound too relaxed and diffuse.
OK I got my used Bryston 7BSST2 and BP26 with the MPS-2 installed. This is vs. the 4BSST and BP20 with MPS-1 power supply.
Well it's definitely an improvement. Bass is tighter, not quite as pronounced as the 4BSST but more balanced. Mids are way more musical. The high end isn't quite as bright but sounds wonderful. Vocals are better for sure. More detailed and very listenable. It's also nice to have a remote the BR-2 is a "real remote" (weighs about 2 lbs?)
Technik, i bought my ref10 with upgraded tubes in the power supply. I already stated what they were above and I also said that I went back to the stock tubes after one of the aftermarket tubes went bad and I got far better sound. I’m not much of a tube rolling guy. I stated that the tubes that my preamp came with did not sound as good as the factory ones. I’ve not played with tube rolling because I really love the way the ref10 sounds as is.
Viber, you make a good point. That said, the ref10 adds the deepest soundstage I’ve ever heard. The ref6s sound stage isn’t as deep and wide. Also, the ref6 can get a tad “hot” sounding in the highs when cranked up IF and ONLY IF you don’t have good synergy with the rest of your gear. The ref10 NEVER gets shouty or in your face.
WC, Good. Long ago, I came to value clarity above everything else, including soundstage. In the old days of using a tubey sounding Dyna ST70 modified by Van Alstine, images were big, rounded and spacious, but the Krell KSA 50 class A SS amp won me over with its clarity, although the soundstage was more focused and not as 3D. I realized that larger than life spaciousness is a euphonic artifact. When I visited various European cities and heard solo street musicians, I was struck by the immediacy and clarity, not by any soundstage. What good is a soundstage if the individual musicians are relatively fuzzy in the space? Accurate electronics will maximize the clarity while still differentiating the natural spatial locations of musicians on that stage. That stage has its proper dimensions but if the stage sounds like a football stadium or the ocean, that is not true to life the way the recording was made.
The only other preamp I want to try is the ayre kxr twenty. Lastly, my ref 10 has about 1100 hours and I feel like it’s just getting better and better.
Hello Wcss, my own experience with one of the REF10's predecessors, the REF3, is that the 6550 in the power supply, regardless of brand, needed to be replaced every 1K hours or so.... At least on REF3, ARC drove the rectifier very hard, and after some 900 hours, it started to sag and the amps tone became progressively warmer, fuzzy, and sloshy.
Cavernous soundstage can be achieved without tubes.
Please list a few solid state DACs, phono stages, line stages and amplifiers that excel in this area.
I have been using Winged C 6550s, 16 in each CAT JL-3 for many years, and they seem to last 1500 or so hours. Sadly, when they go, it's often not pretty as a new resistor needs to be soldered in. But this was true when I ran with the ARC VT130 years before. I am thinking to try KT120s in hopes for longer life and hear what the difference will be between the 2 power tubes.
As for the DRs, I had a quad from previously owning a BAT 31SE, and tried these in the Aria WV5. They were no match compared to a variety of NOS 6922/6DJ8 types and totally slaughtered by the RCA 12BH7. The 6H30 tubes just don't cut it for me. But I assume they are used so heavily now in new products because of their availability through current tube manufacturers,
WC, I encourage you to consider the 240 lb power house Boulder 2060 stereo amp listed on the website of The Music Room. Updated, factory refurbished for $18K. Reviews suggest neutrality and great clarity but without spiky HF harshness, etc. I recall you heard this in the past with other speakers, but remember the warmish Neo could use some tightening up with neutral electronics. You have a 45 day risk free guarantee, with the only risk being return shipping with insurance, probably several hundred bucks. The price of most things there drops about 1% for every week it is not sold.
No WC, what you stated was and is confusing also questioned by grey9hound. Was it the Kt 88 or the 6550 and which 6550. This my point you don't seem to know which is which or which brand is the factory supplied.
You stated " Im being told they were winged 6550c. I just cant imagine someone who has a Ref 10 not KNOWING exactly what tube they have or what tube they put in. Talking about a receipt for disaster.
WC, referring to your wanting of a new DAC. Has anyone mentioned the EMM Labs DA2? It is from Ed Meitner, the designer of SACD and DSD. The DA2 is at the same price point of the other ones you are looking at. His technology for this unit is unlike any other. He manufactures his own DAC and it runs at DSD1024, 16 times a single DSD stream. I would ask your guys about this one. I know MSB is supposed to be best, but this is one that you should probably talk to some others about.
WC, OK, I respect your feelings about Boulder. I think you want life and sparkle, but with enough sweetness. Ayre is a top contender for those qualities. I heard the monos with Maggies at a store years ago. The Music Room has the VX-5 Twenty stereo amp, 3 years old for less than $6K, 175W into 8, 350 into 4, probably near doubling into 2. This may not give you enough power for your desires, but for finesse and delicacy, it probably is at least as good as your Plinius. You have very little to lose with their 45 day free trial. It would give a good indication of their top monos which are a lot of money. Still, I think the best prospect for $6K new is the Rowland 535, 250W into 8, 500 into 4. Guido says it is very nearly as good as the 925, just not quite as much power. The sound is neutral, but with good harmonic info which means it is not sterile. The 535 still can give 30 amps peak. For 1 ohm, that is 900W. Excellent prospect, because you already know the 925. No doubt the MF Titan will give power and sweetness, but you will judge how detailed it is.
One thing we must keep in mind is that the Rowland’s are NOT known for massive soundstage. They are smooth and fatigue free with great detail but if you’re looking for 3D sound that wraps behind your head then look elsewhere. (Granted, I did not use their top end preamp with them which could change my opinion) the more I play with my Neoliths, the more I hear an amplifiers and preamplifiers ability to create a bubble of sound (if they can do it). I totally enjoy that 3D surround sound type of effect with only 2 speakers. The ref10 does this better than ANY COMPONENT I’ve ever owned. I don’t see myself going away from it until they release the ref11 which will have 3 chassis.
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