Back in the 80's I was seduced to the digital side ! At first it was lovely . But then , I became hooked , it got cold and ugly . After a lot of work and many years , I was able to get onto the recovery road to analogdom .
I returned with a MMF 5.1 turntable and stock cartridge . Oh that warm cozy feeling , I missed you so !
But now , as luck would have it , I want MORE ! More dynamics , more detail , more extension , more rich tone and above all else more of that sensuous musicality . I've grown old , fat and out of shape since I quit tapping my toes , bobbing my head , playing air guitar & and dancing around the room ! I'm greedy and I want it all !
Unfortunately , my addictions have forced me to the land of the small budget . I need to stay in the 2K + 3K range . If I can trade in my MMF 5.1 table and cartridge , that would help .
I would like to spend a majority of my money on the table and arm . I need a faithful dog , a table that will stick with me through thick & thin and never leave my side . To grow older with me without the need for attention . I am a set it & forget it / plug n play kind of guy . I want to listen to music , not futz with stuff . I am not able to go out and hear a lot of stuff so my ideas come from the net ...and my help comes from you !
I have read that different manufacturers tables have different sound characteristics . How much of this can be attributed to the arm and cartridge used ? How much can it be altered ? I prefer classic rock , singers & songwriters , contemporary blues , Detroit soul and classical . Not much for Disco , Rap , Techno or Hip Hop .
While most tables have an upgrade path , I would like to refrain from taking it . Again the plug n play / set it & forget it attitude .
Here is what I have come up with , in no special order :
VPI Prime - the most expensive , comes with the 3D arm .
Well Tempered Amadeus MKII - comes with the golf ball arm .
Avid Diva II
Sota Saphire V - no real need for a suspension system as I am on a slab .
Sota Saphire III - refurbished , again no real need for the suspension system .
Origin Live Calypso MkIII
Looking at the Jelco 750D arm for some of these tables .
I just got a Pete Riggle Woody tonearm from an Audiogon member. After many tries to get sound as good as the Maplenoll Ariadne air bearing straight line tracking TT/arm combo I had for about 10 years, I’m now combined the Woody with my heavily modified Lenco rebuild and I was very impressed. I once had a Pete Riggle VTAF to use with an Origin Live Silver II arm on the Lenco. It was very good sounding but not the equal of the Maplenoll setup. I’ve been through about 5 TT’s and 5 arms prior to this and none of them could remind me of the ’Noll. The armband I have was cut for the VTAF so installing the Woody was a simple drop in replacement.
On first listen, I just sat there and smiled--FINALLY, a combo that could at least equal the ’Noll, actually surpass it in almost all areas. The sound was so live, yet beautifully full, with deep articulate bass, and hoppin’ dynamics you just don’t get to hear with analog often. The Woody is so versatile, and easy to adjust, once you understand all the functions and how they work. Things can be accurately set by ear on the fly. Like the ’Noll, all kinds of music was just better sounding than before, even the just OK recorded albums. Unlike most of the users of this arm, however, I found after trying it both ways for several hours each, that I prefer the sound of the arm with no damping over vs. using the silicone fluid in the cup. The sound looses some of the jumping dynamics and articulation it has with no damping used.
Lastly, the arm looks beautiful on my 100 lb. Lenco plinth, like it was made to go with it. My Lenco is quite beautiful also, albeit large. I haven’t even had a chance to hear this with my components on my Sistrum racks as the rods were being cut to make 2 shorter racks while this came from the seller. The Sistrum racks make everything sound much better, more LIVE, with incredible details at even low volume levels. The rods are arriving Monday as I write. Will give an update to the sound soon after. The Woody is a definite KEEPER, as is my super Lenco. I should note, I’m using a Soundsmith level 3 rebuilt Benz Micro Ruby 3 w/ myrtlewood body. This is a very nice sounding cartridge, the best I have had in my system.
Straight out of the box this VPI Prime is a very noticeable improvement .
I had the dealer install the Ortofon 2M black cartridge and set up everything before shipping it to me . The counter weight had moved and needed adjustment and the arm and cartridge alignment were checked just to be sure .
With a cold tube amp and phono stage this is at least twice as good as my MMF 5.1 with stock cartridge ! There is just more of everything , which is what one would expect . Extension at both ends , definition ,macro and micro details , clarity , air it's all there in abundance . What I didn't expect was the individual placing of each performer and instrument , the 'they are here' presence and realistic tone . Now I know what is meant by a black quiet background . It sounds as if they are in the room with me . Everything is just so much clearer and realistic than before . Warmed up , takes it another couple of steps further up the ladder ! And it still is not broke in yet . VPI recommends at least 20 hours of play . Working .
I am still using the same phono stage , a Hagerman Cornet 3 . This is a nice piece but I don't believe it to be in the same league as the VPI Prime . I feel another thread coming , down the road a bit !
I would like to thank my salesman Jeff Harris at Reference Analog in Moore OK.
When I had a problem with the counter weight , as mentioned above , he made himself available via telephone and was most gracious and helpful . He even went so far as to have me call back to make sure that all was well after trying it out , these calls were placed Saturday evening ! A classy guy who actually cares what happens 'after' the sale ! Kudos Jeff and thanks for the great deal too !
IMHO for plug and play: Rega RP10 Townhend Rock 7 (my fave) Helius (aurora II think) Nottingham analogue spacedeck Out of interest must you buy brand new? For 2-3k with arm there are some superb second hand decks that you can get.
If you want a " set it & forget it / plug n play" turntable that will last you the rest of your life, you may consider getting the latest Technics SL1200 that has been improved.
+1 on buying used. Not much love around here, but I picked up a Music Hall MMF 9.1 used for $700 and added a Dynavector cart. Awesome sound and great build quality (also great reviews online if you hunt around). I have listened to several VPI tables ( not the Prime) and,while they sounded great, it still seemed as if I was bumping up against the law of diminishing returns. Get a TT that is complementary to the potential of the rest of your system. Buy used and spend the savings on more vinyl.
One more for the Nottingham! I heard it for the first time one year ago, while auditioning some speakers and amplifiers, and I got hooked! I kept going to the shop over and over again just because of that table and finally I ordered one: the Ace Spacedeck with the Ace Space arm on it. Everything in this deck rings my bells. It's so musical and dynamic, and extremely silent like if you were listening to music in the outer space. And then the details, like the manual push to start/stop the spinning. This is the very essence of what analog life is. I love it!
I recently returned a new VPI Classic 1. Mine arrived with scratches all over the platter, which I was prepared to live with due to the nature of the soft aluminum. Unfortunately, the motor was quite loud (I could hear it running when standing across the room) and I could hear mechanical noise through my speakers at volumes of only 50 db. The rest of the Classic was built like a tank.
Unfortunately, I was very surprised that my old Thorens, with its original worn out gimbaled arm, trounced the VPI in almost every respect. The Classic ran slow and though it wasn't mated to a speed controller, for that price, the table shouldn't have obvious speed issues when checked by a strobe. My 35 year old Thorens can hold visibly perfect speed without a controller.
I really wanted to love the Classic, but IMO, it didn't perform anywhere near what one should expect from a $3k setup. Maybe my expectations were too high...Maybe the Prime doesn't have those issues.
I would recommend you check out the beautiful and fully restored Thorens tables from Vinyl Nirvana.
Hear here ketto! The Rock has never caught on in the States as it has in the UK, where it is considered a reference. The Rock addresses several turntable design considerations in a novel and unique way, providing sound reproduction from LP's like no other table, no matter the cost!
Rock 7 by Townshend audio. It's in your budget including the arm. It's in my set up with groove + by tom Evans and the combination is just amazing. My cartridge is cadenza bronze. Hope this helps
@saki70 you described here the story of my life, much better than I could! About 15 years ago I cracked, bought Sondek and got hooked! Upgraded (or downgraded?) it to fully Naim-ed Sondek, and after getting it Keel-ed even sold the original shipping/packing box. So this is my Last TT!! Given a second chance, I would go different direction, because as it is now I totally depend on my local dealer to reset my Sondek every few years (tried to do this myself, even bought a jig, but this is not as straightforward as others claim it to be). My experience: get something upgradeable and save yourself some $$$ down the road...
Sancho22- I don't mean to doubt you, but just want to confirm. You found a VPI better than a Kuzma Stabi/Stogi? This was with the same cartridge, and NO change in associated equipment. Cheers -Don
Get the VPI Prime and never look back! 20lb platter, 3D tonearm, VTA/SRA on the fly. superior record clamp, killer outboard motor, sounds just like the $6k classic Signature. I dont think anything comes close in the $3k price range...
Mark, I too have the original Spacedeck/Spacearm with Goldring 1042 MM. Pear Audio is in fact new Nottingham, though the old Nottinghams continue to be made. Michael Fremer said of the top of the line Pear turntable that it had tape-like flow and drive. This is a very high compliment. That turntable is also the least expensive one on Stereophile A list, $10k with arm. If you can afford it, it might make sense to consider it, it should be much better than the Spacedeck. There is at least one dealer in the US.
One more vote for a VPI Prime and the Kuzma Stabi/Stogi combo. I traded in my Kuzma for the Prime - upgrade but not by much (the Kuzma was an older model, about 10 years old).
BTW I am listening to a nice Thorens 124 MK I right now. Sounds really terrific with the SME 3009 (rewired) and Denon 103...just sayin
The insect tweak is part of a comprehensive approach I take to just about all my endeavors--If I can get away with doing nothing, that is how I will handle it. That is why I also use "dust damping" for my turntable and other components--I let dust collect on everything based on the convenient theory that this natural form of damping will improve performance.
I would recommend the VPI Classic (1). They can be had new for around $2500 and sound even better than the reviews written about them. I would pair it with a Dynavector 20X2 either low or high output and just listen to music. With that said I want to note that I have a Classic now and don't plan on changing it for another table. I do not own a 20X2 however I do have a version of the mother of the 10X that sounds excellent. I have also heard many other Dyna's over the years.
Mark, what do you have and what catridge do you use? I didn't mention Nottingham because they are talking VPI and the OP seems to have set his mind. Though there are not too many Nottinghams in the US, still you very rarely see them for sale. But I do mention Nottingham in other threads all the time. Take a look at Pear Audio turntables, they are the evolution of Tom Fletcher's ideas.Enter your text ...
Inna - I own the basic Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck with the original Spacearm loaded with an Ortofon Cadenza bronze cartridge. I've owned it for approximately 13 years. Initially I had a Benz high output wood body MC cartridge then changed to the Ortofon - substantial improvement in all areas. I could afford to 'upgrade' my TT, but have never felt the need nor do I have the patience at this point in my life. Too often I've been bit by the 'upgrade' bug only to learn that what I own is already very good and all I've done is buy something 'different', not necessarily better. The Pear Audio product looks suspiciously like the Nottingham product. I think Nottingham is just one of those slightly 'under the radar' type products, with a slight cult-like following. I loved my Sota Sapphire but I prefer the Nott: blacker background, more detail, less 'warm', more neutral, equally if not more musical. Both are great decks.
I've had for little over a year a killer table that trounced my VPI Scoutmaster in very conceivable way and it's on the south side in price and then some compared to the Prime that would allow you to get a better cartridge. Take a look at the turntables form Small Audio Manufacture a company out of Croatia! I have the Reference which I use with either The Wand 12" arm and a Origin Live Silver Mk III...it holds up to three arms. I use a Zyx 4D. These are awesome tables and I suggest you give them query...you won't be sorry. They're building quite a following. I have no affiliation with the company, only 100% satisfaction...even a free motor upgrade....
I have quite a few, a dealer for several. Last with VPI for second time, no trouble the first but I got out for a little while. They are very good and easy to set up but dammed heavy and I say this as someone who could carry a B&W 801 by himself when younger. I have a Basis 200 series [I had brain damage and numbers sometime escape me] With a Graham arm and now have a modified LP12 with Rega 1000 arm. My best advice to you is BUY USED! Both of mine were bought that way. Turntables do not hold their value very well and their owners are very erratic. A friend is selling his top SOTA with SME V to get a Technics 1200 because it sounds as good and they all sound the same anyway. He is not some newby but profoundly mistaken in my mind. They all sound different but many are very good. And tastes differ. If you get one from someone with good feedback you are likely to be all right. Almost everything I have was bought used and I have a hell of a lot of stuff [check it ] Most tables are quite rugged and requires a new belt once in a while. I find belts better but others can argue the point. Good luck. Yes the do sound better than CD and I have a good CD system.
Orpheus, my experience is too limited. I’ve tried to move up a lot with each change, so that I have lived with only a half dozen TT in the last 20 years. Of course, I've auditioned quite a few, but that's not the same at all.
Simplifying a bit, I went from a Rega to a Linn Basik, because the LP12 seemed to be not that much better than the Basik. To get that jump, I had to wait for Nottingham Analogue, then heavily modified it (another big jump - NA plinths are their weak point, IMO). Then my own air bearing design. At each stage, I got increased definition and decreased noise, without compromising sweetness and euphony.
Berhrt, Inna, as you can see, I agree that the NAS Dais is also a good buy, but have no experience of NAS in the $2K-3K range.
If I were you I would look into the ProJect RPM-10 Carbon. I recently bought one after comparing against a bunch of others including the VPI Prime and I thought the Carbon 10 sounded better and had the better design. It's just my opinion, check it out.
First and foremost , I want to thank everyone immensely !
The responses have been terrific and far more than I could've hoped for .
There is a lot of good information here that should help many others .
I decided to rule out anything used from a private party due to many horror stories about shipping damages . Also anything that came with a recommendation of an immediate upgrade or part change .
Sota - Obviously an excellent product with a great reputation . But it was stated that it works best with different types of music than what I desire and I have no need for a suspension system . tdybare1 speaks of his Nova with the vacuum hold down but that is above my price point . So I ruled out Sota .
WT Amadeus MKII - Very well respected . I thought long and hard on this one . But considering my waning dexterity and the operation of the tone arm without the aid of lifting devices , I had to decide against it .
Avid Diva II - Nobody spoke to this one .
That leaves the Origin Live Calypso MKIII and the VPI Prime .
The Prime has garnered quite a few accolades , gets spoken of frequently , does not have any recommended upgrades and is 'Made in America' . So I ordered one today .
Mark, what do you have and what catridge do you use? I didn't mention Nottingham because they are talking VPI and the OP seems to have set his mind. Though there are not too many Nottinghams in the US, still you very rarely see them for sale. But I do mention Nottingham in other threads all the time. Take a look at Pear Audio turntables, they are the evolution of Tom Fletcher's ideas.
Just curious, I've owned Thorens, Sonographe, Sota and recently a Nottngham TT and feel the Nott bests the others, why no mention of Nottingham decks? Black background, musical as can be, detailed, spacious, quiet, dynamic. Oh, simple to set up and affordable.
I own a Sota Nova with a Pete Riggle "The Woody " tonearm and Grado Statement 1 cartridge. All I can say is musical bliss! I listen to rock like you and this is an amazing setup! If you can afford one of the Sota turntables I highly recommend this tonearm. Find it at vtaf.com. I was also looking at a VPI table inically because of all the great reviews. I spoke with a gentlemen who sold both brands and he said that most people come in wanting a VPI, but once they hear a Sota the VPI tables are totally forgotten. I highly recommend that you get a Sota even with a Rega arm they're amazing. Also go for the vacuum hold down tables if you can. This will be your last table! You'll never want another table! I can gaurantee it! Peace!
Consider a Lenco.It is a beast of a table. Built like a tank and super stable. As an idler wheel drive, built in the 70s, the Lenco is a table that is still used by audiophiles around the world. Check out Lenco Heaven on the web. The Rega arm is an excellent choice and it's affordable. Your vinyl and your ears will appreciate it.
Terry9, while I'm familiar with the different sounds of cartridges in the same price range, I'm not familiar with the different sounds of turntables in the same price range. Since you seem to have had a number of tables, could you comment on the different ones that were rated Class A or B by Stereophile.
Although those ratings are not etched in stone, I consider them valid, and that's from experience.
Most people compare apples to oranges by comparing a more expensive table to a less expensive table, but I'm talking about different tables in the same price range, as well as in the same Stereophile rating range.
If you have that much experience, I'll be looking forward to your answer.
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