I own the KEF Reference 5s. I borrowed the Monitor Audio Pl300 ii speakers for comparison, which is still under way. Thoughts so far: Both are good speakers. The KEFs provide a lot of detail. Listening to classical music, you can hear orchestral instruments and sections pretty clearly. Background and counter melodies can be identified. Piano music is very realistic. The MAs do not provide as much instrumental detail but they do have a more mellow, deeper, broader sound. Which is better is really a matter of personal choice. As I said, I’m still listening so these are some quick preliminary reactions. More later.
It's proves not proofs. After reading it 5 thousand times I thought some one should tell you since you write it 2 or 3 times in every post. Maybe one of your many Tru Fi clients can weigh in here about the magic of Tru fi.... Lol.
Urbie most people know that room treatment, cables and electronics are important.
Your line trial and error is not the best way, means what exactly?
Did Bo magically just know that his particular setup with AQ cables, Monitor audio loudspeakers and whatever he uses would work together without trying that setup which also means that he would have been comparing to other products, most dealers do the trial and error variation of trying many different components until they find a series of components that work together such as the Vandy, AQ, Ayre combo that seems popular.
When you are using products that are different electronics, different source and cabling unless they are all from the same company you will exactly be trying out these products which is the very definition of trial and error, most people call that testing.
OP has the right ingredients for a fantastic sounding system, add in Jim Smiths excellent book on Get Better Sound and become that setup guru for your room, your system, BTW the Unitiserve can can take you pretty far with HRS isolators, damping brick ( the top cover rings like a bell ), a Linear Power supply ( the Pardo is about $500 ) and getting it on a different circuit than the all analog gear in system. have fun,
I am the O.P. for this thread. I have the Kent Foundry edition KEF Reference 5 in white. In my house (which has a modern decor) they look fantastic. In fact, a couple of dealers have talked about working with KEF to get professional photographs for advertising (I’d post a picture here if I knew how). As for sound, I wasn’t sure when they arrived but after a year plus, they are broken in and sounding great. I especially like the wide soundstage and holographic imaging. I was at a live classical symphony performance recently and came away thinking that my speakers could never capture the power of that performance. When I got home and played the same music, I was surprised at how close it sounded to the real thing.
sutts: Good call on the KEF Reference-1's: I was stunned/incredibly impressed upon first listening to these babies -subsequent evaluations and to this day.
ONE LISTEN -seconds really, and you'll realize these are amazing music makers !
if only KEF could see to it to offer up a less flashy (look-at-me) front baffle; matte finish with Black or Charcoal-color driver's and similar 'neutral/dark-color front baffle would do the trick. BUT, no-can-do, says KEF UK/America. Instead, pick a finish from our (6-year old now) options -Turkey's.
Now, if the Kent Foundry Edition had a flat-black cabinet (or even American Walnut/with black baffle/driver's -even with copper Uni-Q), I'd be good-to-go. But no, KEF does not have the vision to update, or offer custom finishes on their top models.
I briefly tried listening to the PL200ii and Pl300ii and couldn't get past how dark and uninvolving they sounded. I heard them at a dealer who I generally respect with regard to proper setup and system matching to get the best out of each product he sells but perhaps they hadn't had the MA items that long. I meant to get back to try to figure out what the problem was and address it with the dealer but just never did. I also wondered what the PL500ii which he also had setup sounded like...I did not have an opportunity to listen to that. I recently had to completely rule out the Magico A3 due to a similar dark dull and lifeless tonal balance (different dealer).
I got a good laugh seeing you get ticked off above at Bo. That's how I felt a year or two ago. Believe me, he has been on a posting vacation compared to before, but its the exact same message.
The funny thing is (nothing really funny about him) is that he appears to be located in the Netherlands and you will notice he has never sold or purchased anything on A'gon (under his Bo username). He isn't posting to sell anything, and truthfully, I have no idea why he repeats the same, and I hate to say it, boring message in his posts.
I love Kef but I find the resonance on the port of the PL200 draws to much attention to itself and takes a little detail away from the lower mid quality - in the driver integration is not quite there and not totally convincing. The mid range quality and treble is excellent on the PL 200.
Wow, I don't know when I've ever read the same crap over and over again from the same person, he gets called out on it, and just keeps doing it.
He pats himself on the back about all he's "learned", yet can understand basic writing etiquette, syntax, and editing. And it's still marketing crap.
To the OP. I'm biased and like KEF. If you listen to a lot of classical, it is oddly enough KEF's most radically non-classic looking speaker that you want to audition, and it's the same price as Reference 5. Blade 2!!
d2girls, "
If you read between the lines he's also pretty much insulting everyone here." Unfortunately, insulting people on Audiogon has become the norm.
randyhat, You can't hold Monitor Audio accountable for Bo. If I used your criteria, "
Do you realize that your participation in this discussion has driven away potential Monitor Audio customers
", I wouldn't purchase several products. There are Audiogon members that do the same as Bo with other speakers.
Bo, does the Monitor Audio company know you are on the Internet making these insanely annoying diatribes about their speakers. Do you realize that your participation in this discussion has driven away potential Monitor Audio customers? You need to find a better sales tactic. You are damaging your reputation and the reputation of the brands you represent. You obviously have no self awareness of how you come across in these forums. Over and over and over again you miss so many perfect opportunities to keep quiet.
I too always try to keep my disrespectful / negative / non-constructive thoughts to myself, rather than posting them. And I seriously value freedom of speech. But, I'm literally on the brink with this guy (bo1972)...I can't read even one more of his repetitive, nonsensical rants. He's taking all the joy out of this forum for me. Yes, that's my problem, not his...and I know I need to just ignore (or laugh). Just feels good to vent for 30 seconds, thanks for listening. Now I'll shut up.
I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone; however bo1972 please stop. Please! You repeat the same thing ad nauseam. I don't see how anyone can benefit from what you say.
When you let people hear a stunning 3-dimensional holographic stage with even diversity in height, The Kef can’t even compete to this level. Maybe in your limited trial and error world you think it is good. It still does not own all the different properties of sound. When you are aware of how sound works and you know how to create it. You enter a world which makes the trial and error world sounds even silly and outdated.
When you all keep on doing audio by trial and error you will stay in a world what will never make you smile and proud each single time you listen to your system. When you are aware of all the different properties of sound your ideas about audio and music goes to a different level.
And the focus is only based on what you can create and bring to the max. Everything what is less or incomplete has no meaning. And you know why? Because it will never reach that level in emotion as those products and systems who can reveal it all.
Tru-Fi has nothing to do with any brand. It only makes clear if each individual product is able to create and reveal all the different properties of sound. These products will always outperform all incomplete products in a Tru-Fi world. And no one can change that. Because this is how our emotion works.
The Reference 5 display speakers here benefit greatly from the Belden Iconoclast speaker cables, more than most other speakers. The cables open up the top end and extend and define the deep bass. This sounds like a narrow recommendation but it nails it. Otherwise the Ref5s can be a little soft on top. The MA 200 IIs are in the same room here. I agree the sound with them is denser in a good way, but they don’t sound dark on top.
Sound is being formed by different properties. When an audiosystem can reveal all the different properties of sound it will create a more intense and emotional feeling than when you use an audiosystem that lacks different properties.
A client of mine owns the B&W804D3. I explained him that it can only build one meter in stage depth. He uses Accuphase what in all tests we did also showed that it can build about 1 meter of stage depth. This is what we call a hifi stereo parameter. The Platinum loudspeakers are able to create 5-7 meters of stage depth.
This is what you want and need in any highend system. When you are not able to create a huge deep and wide stage you are not even allowed to use the word highend. Based on the fact that humans can hear sound in a 3-dimensional spectrum. I think that a stunning holographic 3D stage makes listening to music so much more addictive and intense.
In 9 years of time I brought many people from a 2D system to a 3D system. And they all react the same way. They use their system so much more. And I gave them other properties of sound they also did not own
This new client bought a Lumin D2 with our Pro modification about 6 weeks ago. I did send him to a shop to audition both his loudspeaker and the PL-200 II. I wanted to make clear that the PL-200 II in a trial and error system is so much different than in a Tru-Fi world.
The system did not have any level in depth he said during the demo of both B&W804D3 and PL-200 II. He was rather dissapointed in both demoes. The day after I did send him to a client who lives not that far away from him. He owns a PL-200 II set in a Tru-Fi system with a Lumin and Pro modification.
This client is a musician in a band and plays and owns many acoustic and electric guitars. He is more serious into audio for about 5 years of time. And he visits shows and also visited different audioshops in the last 5 years of time.
He wrote me a nice story about his experiences during the PL-200 II and the Tru-Fi system. Later that day he phoned me as well. It was the best system he ever auditioned. He said; in a few seconds you already know that this is a different world.
He was stunned that the same PL-200 II had become a totally different loudspeaker than the day before in the audioshop. He was amazed how much better this loudspeaker was compared to his B&W 804D3. For the first time he could hear diversity in height. And mann this make a huge difference in how the music effects you. He could hear so much more details and information of his own music.
When he will have used his new Tru-Fi system and the PL-200 II he will write a review about his experiences. I will send the link overhere. He never experienced music this palpable and diverse in sound. It made his music so much more attractive he said. That same day he bought the PL-200 II and a Tru-Fi system.
He understood directly what audio does to your emotion and feelings when your music is being played by all the different properties of sound. You only can create an audiosystem what is able to reveal all the different properties of sound when each part in that system owns all the different properties of sound.
Because most brands and products cannot reveal all these different properties of sound. We only use and sell products who can reveal all the different properties of sound. This way we can outperform any other competitor easily. Each person wants the most intense and emotional system. Based on the fact that our emotion works this way.
The PL-300 II is in a Tru-Fi world where it reveals all the details and different properties of sound a superior loudspeaker to the Kef Reference. But.......in a trial and error system there are different rules and a totally different outcome.
You only will have an idea what the PL-300 II is capable of when you created an audiosystem what can reveal all the different properties of sound. And that the system is fully adapted regarding the acoustics, smog, magnetism and high frequent noise.
The truth is that the PL-300 II is demoed in a trial and error system. This will never give you an idea what the PL-300 II can offer in a Tru-Fi world. What you all hear is your truth. And this is what you all believe in.
But your truth is being formed by the systems you auditioned. This makes you think what the quality is of the product. Let me say this. When you listen to the same loudspeakers in a Tru-Fi world the truth has become totally different.
It is not even comparable with any limited trial and error system. You enter a new world you even don’t even know it exist. Because your truth is the trial and error world. This is a world without understanding the properties of sound and all the different parts who negativly influences both sound and stage.
No I am not a robot. But....... we use very high tech tools of over 7000 dollar when we install audio. Most people in audio still think it is 1980. And we work at 0.25 millimeter precision.
I think we life in a different world and are far ahead of what we call the limited trial and error world. I also call it the 1980 audio world. Because many still do audio at the same way as we did in 1980. But there are so much better tools and options to create a superior level these days
People have no idea how extreme they limit themselves by trial and error audio. The other problem is the lack in knowledge and insight regarding the acoustics, smog, magnetism and high frequent noise. Trial and error will only give you access to a very limited part of each individual component in your system.
That is why money will never solve it. The biggest problem in audio is the lack in insight and knowledge. Trial and error proofs how ineffective audio is being done. And it also proofs that people have no idea about the human emotion and also not about the properties of sound.
This proofs that they do not understand sound. But when you want to understand audio you need to understand the properties of sound first. Like you need to understand the acoustics and other parts like smog, magnetism and high frequent noise who all negatively influences the sound and stage.
Audio is done by random order and people have no real foundation. This is the main reason why most systems are not that good. Because they are not able to create a lot of emotion during listening. This is caused by the lack of properties of sound which are missing. When you add these properties which are missing, you see how different the same people react to the same music.
They all have no F. idea what sound is and which properties they use. It is pure gambling. This is audio done at the level of a child. Based on the fact that they have no idea what they do. Children have a lot less experience compared to adults and they will face many situations for the first time where they have no idea why it is as it is.
This counts for audio as well. They all have no idea why the sound and stage of their system is what they hear. This is needed to have any idea why you are hearing the sound and stage as it is. Trial and error will never make you understand your system. It will be a gambling system untill you die. And yess I understand that this is not the thing you would like to hear. But this is the truth and you need to learn to look further.....
You only can understand things you do not know when you do it differently. Trial and error will never give you any idea what the F. you are doing. This is a fact and I talked about this with many people in audio for many times. They all agreed that they do audio by gambling.
This means that they never thought about how to guide and understand audio and music. The 3th of july 1998 I had a mindset and I wanted to know why each loudspeaker is sounding so different than another does. I spend thousands of hours and tests to learn to think in properties of sound.
And you know why? Because I was aware that this is the only way to understand audio. But is looks like the whole world has been sleeping in the last 20 years. And the facts proof over and over again that they all do audio by trial and error. To be honest this is audio at the level of a child.
I confronted many people in audio with this phrase. And the most silly thing is that they all agreed that it lacks any kind of real foundation. That is why I ask it again..........
Tell me how you found your decisions regarding the choices how you select and create your audiosystem?
@fast It’s funny how we all hear things differently. I have the Ref 3’s and actually preferred the MA 300 ii’. Just couldn’t strike a good enough deal with a trade to make it work for me
Sutts, the Blades can work that close. We have the Blades in a room where we are sitting pretty close and if you get the toe in correct the image is both wide and well focused.
As per driving them both the Bats and the Veritas can easily drive the Blades we auditioned the Blades on the Veritas and they were way too dry for our tastes, the T+A gear is way better, the BAT VK 150 are excellent tube amplifiers and they will drive the Blades well.
We also have a demo pair of Blades if you are interested.
I told you how I work, many people who work in audio told me all that they have no real foundation. This also counts for all the peole who has audio as a hobby. It is all being created by gambling.
You want to believe that trial and error is the best way to create your own audiosystem. But the facts proof that trial and error is one big farce. The facts proof that each person will always choose blind that system what creates a higher level in emotion.
No one will choose blind any incomplete system. Our emotion works the same way. We only have different tastes in music. But at the end sound and music still owns it’s properties. And this cannot be changed by any person.
That is why I advice to read about the human emotion. And how music works on our emotion. You will understand and learn it yourself. We are only talking about facts and things that can be explained without any difficulty.
When I would not have listened a lot to real live music in small settings I would never be able to understand how big they are in proportion. And how big the diversity (layering) is in sound.
That is why I will use conservatorium students to play real instruments. So you hear them first in real and after that played by a Tru-Fi system. When you use the same music, it is very easy to understand how big the differences are between an incomplete trial and error system vs a Tru-Fi system who can reveal all the details and layers of the same recording.
Audio is shootout all over the world. You can compare it yourself. And all people will choose that system what can touch their emotion the most. That is why it is interesting for each person to read about the human emotion.
Good speakers can sound drastically different based on the room and components that are connected to them. I keep hearing that Monitor Audio speakers have no detail and/or lack resolution, but I submit they are neutral and really reflect what’s connected to them and the recording. Yes, there are speakers that are more "detailed" and some have a preference for speakers with a lot of detail. I’ve owned Wilson Audio, Aerial, Klipsch, Revel, Artemis, and a couple more speakers. I recently listened to KEF Blades 2s, Magico A3s, Magico S3 IIs, and Paradigm Persona 7Fs. All of the aforementioned speakers sound really good to me, but I wouldn’t sell my Monitor Audio PL500 IIs for them. I've tried to build a system based on my speakers and I know I would have to change components if a purchased one of the others speakers. At this point I'm not willing to change my entire system for new speakers. My PL500 aren’t better, they just present details differently. What bothers me more and more on Audiogon is when individuals disparage manufacturers. I don’t have to prefer speaker or component XYZ, but I shouldn’t disparage the manufacture. Unless you listen to someone’s "system", you have no clue of how it sounds. I’m not here to make anyone like Monitor Audio. I’m simply saying, THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN AUDIO, ONLY PREFERENCES.
As someone who owns the MA PL200 IIs, they handle detail well. The bass is sounds just fine to me (I think I read here that the 200s handle base better than the 300s) and the whole business about being laid back is not, in my humble opinion, true. This coming from someone who owned a pair of Magico S3s. Look, the PL line from MA is a well built, well designed, superior sounding and well reviewed (by professionals and consumers alike). They get better and better with each upgrade. They are worth an audition. I would even go a step father and say you will not be disappointed if you go with the PL 200/300s. I appreciate the fact that we all have different ears and hear things in our unique way. While I am happy with the performance of my speakers, another may not care for the sound they produce. It is the joy and magic of our hobby.
It does not change, you still all focus on products. The truth has nothing to do with spam. You still need to learn to look further. Sound will always proof and tell the truth. No one can change that.
The loudspeaker you own is the last and most important part in your system. From here you will hear your music you want to play. When you cannot read the loudspeaker you have no idea which amps, sources, cables, conditioners etc you need to connect.
What you do it you connect an amp, source, cables and conditioners on it and you hope for the best. But the truth is, you still have no idea what you connect. Based on the fact that you still have no idea what the properties are of each part in your system.
This is what most people do not want to read. So they say to eachother it is spam. The fact remains that you still connect each part by gambling. And when you dare to say it is different . Just explain why you make your decisions..........
The Blade and Reference still own their properties. This cannot be changed. Not by you and not by Kef. It will stay as it is. Even in the most ideal situation you still cannot reveal and play all the different properties of sound.
But.......trial and error systems will be connected to the Kef Blade. Kef Reference and also to the PL-500 II. At the end they still are only able to use a very limited level of the potential they own. People make the same mistake over and over again.
And again they do not want to read this. So the people who have the insight of a child will make remarks that it is only a story told by Bo. But they forget one important thing. Tru-Fi can proof easily and even for them that it is superior to their trial and error decisions. The decisions they will make all there life will never have any kind of foundation.
Based on the fact that they only can listen to the endresult of connecting all the parts togheter. And never in there life they will understand what the properties are of each individual part in their system. Tru-Fi can proof how limited the endresult is of all their choices. When you create a system by Tru-Fi even for their loudspeakers. It will outperfrom and proof how silly their choices where they made.
And again this is not what you want to read. You can write down whatever you want. It will never make any change. Your systems will be and stay trial and error systems. Trial and error only can create and reach a limited level in result.
Based on the fact that you will never understand why the sound and stage is what your system is playing. You only can chnage parts in your system by gambling. You disconnect for example a cable and replace it by another.
But you still have no F. idea which properties you take out and which you bring in. This is why you will never be abel to control and understand each decision you make.
I did discus this with many different people who also work in audio for a long time. And they all agreed that their decions are taken by hoping for better. No one could describe the properties of the part they took out and of the part they brought in.
After this they understood that the way they do audio lacks any kind of foundation. And again this is not what you want to read. But this is the truth. And Tru-Fi can proof it. And we have done this many times. And there was not even one person who was able to explain how he founds his system.
So again.......just write and explain how you make your decisions by creating your audiosystem. And why you it this way. ........
@fast- good topic. I heard the big PL500II's a while back locally here in Toronto area. Whilst I could appreciate them from all the audiophile check boxes, for some reason they didn't gel for me into a complete package- I can't explain it. They were a good deal, and my BAT VK-150 SE's and Rex II preamp were a great match with them, but I wasn't convinced enough to purchase. Remember the X-Files? 'I want to believe' but something holding me back... I also heard the Kef Ref One's at another local dealer and really liked them- especially the wide dispersion staging- they appear very well made and had some addictive sound qualities. Best of luck with your decision!
+1 Bensturgeon- thanks for saying what I have been thinking about 'Bo' this entire thread. It almost feels like receiving 'spam' reading his multitude of non sequitur paragraphs...
@audiotroy My local dealer has had a pair of trade in Blade 1's for a long time. Can my BAT VK-150SE's, or Merrill Veritas monos both be able to drive these guys? Also- they are saying I need to be at least about 10+ feet away from them for ideal listening- in your experience can the listener be any closer than that? thanks!
@bo1972 I understand that English is not your first language but your passion for audio come through to me. Thanks for taking your valuable time to converse.
@audiotroy I cannot make it to NYC area due to having a toddler to take care of. Going to L.A. shops will also take some planning but are only day trips. Some good shops out here too. However, saying all of that, I do intend to buy something from your shop in the future.You have provided tons of insight to me over the years with your posts and I would like to do something for that. Maybe the Blade2 purchase in the future when my toddler is less curious about my audio gear and I have the living room space.
English is not my language. And I write down what I think. The english text which we use for the website are being grammatically adjusted by a person who is exeptional in the english language.
At the end you undersrand what I write. I seldom write back what i wrote overhere. I do not have time for that. Sometimes I make some time for it. It is fun.
Ofcourse I understand that the things I write can be F. irritating. This is more due to the fact that they cannot use it how we can use it.
I hope that you will understand that trial and error is very ineffective. All my clients now understand that it has no foundation. Like they will never do audio by trial and error again. They all know how limited the system was they owned before.
We are discussing now how we will use Tru-Fi for as many other people as possible. The people I spoke(who also work in audio) with all agree that audio needs to change.They all can see that the market is getting smaller each single year.
Trial and error will not solve this. I even think that trial and error is one of the biggest reasons why audio is having a hard time. When we meet new clients their systems are so poor. And they money they spend on it, never will be worth it.
I see no change by trial and error that people will get value for money. The facts proof over and over again that these systems are not that good. Many new clients use their systems not that often anymore,
This can be explained on how our emotion works. Tru-Fi brings these people to a world they never experienced before. They only listened to systems which are 2D in over 99%. And which miss even more different properties of sound.
No audiosystem in the world what is incomplete will ever be able to create enough emotion that you want to use your system for many hours each single day.
You use 5 parts how to create an audiosystem. But...the facts still proof that they do not know and understand the properties of all the different parts of tnji system. Choices will be pure in random order.
They set up different loudspeakers. For example the Platinum 200 II. They still cannot read the DNA/properties of the loudspeaker. I know the DNA of many brand and loudspeakers.
Tru-Fi can proof easily that most created systems are incomplete on facts. This means it is very easy to let people hear the parts which are missing.
I also did a lot of research in cables in over 20 years of time. Even cabel brands have their own DNA/properties.
Buth when you ahve no idea what the properties are of this cable, you are still making any decision by trial and error. You will listen to the endresult and you still have no F.idea about the different properties of each part in that system.
Even without understanding the properties, sound is evne so much more complex. I spend the msot time in the last 8 years on the acoustics. Based on the fact that this part has the biggest influence on the sound and stage of any audiossytem.
But in 2015 I started to do again research in electricity. I did spoke many different specialists during these tests and research period. I fouces on 3 parts also; smog, magnetism and high frequent noise. Now in 2018 I can limit these negative aspects on sound and stage a lot.
People have no F.idea how extreme negative these parts can influence both sound and stage. Like is also influeces vision negatively which we also tested.
I will never give the names, but most cable brands are not able to reveal all the different properties of sound. But people have no idea what the properties are of the cabels they buy. Due to the fact that trial and error will never give them this information.
I had contact with Desmo]nd Harrington in the past for many years. I was surprised that even they work by trila and erro. And they have no idea about the dna/properties of other brands and loudspeakers.
Again they also can use ans get access to s limited level of their own made stuff. Due to the fact that I could see that they use brands and products which are incomplete on properties.
But they also cannot think in properties. I owned many Pass labs momnos and amps in the last 9 years. I owned the XP-20 for some time. But I was able to create a superior level with the modified Onkyo PR-SC5509 with our own measurement.
It was able to reveal more layers and details in the whole freq. range. And Desmodn wanted to buy a 5509 himself. But I had to laugh and wrote; this doesn't make sense at all. You do not own my brians so you cannot use my insight. Only when you can think and work by properties and you onw a photographic mmemory as I do you could understand it.
It took me many years and thousands of tests and hours to be abel to think in properties. Because I knew in 1998 that this is needed to understand audio. 2,5 years ago I started to do vision the same way. It give the same endresults. Which is superior to anything.
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