I have only read the OP's post and will comment on their inquiry.
As an example there is a Speaker Designer Troels Graveson (TG), who offers the Schematics/ Parts/ Cabinet Dimensions using a selection of Brands products for his own Speaker Designs.
The general consensus in the community that uses these designs, is that a Basic Speaker Design, that can cost between $3000-$7000 to produce if done correctly as a DIY Build, can easily compete in the arena with Commercial Products costing 6x - 10x the Build cost of a TG Design.
In many cases TG offers a Xover Upgrade for these designs, that can add another $500+ to the above build cost. It does seem the utilisation of the Upgrade, produces a coherence in the SQ and gathers the presentation to where it can be perceived as more honest and believable. It does not necessarily mean the measurements produced for the Speaker or the Speakers impact on Room Modes are going to change.
Note: All that is produced Upstream of the Speaker Xover is Signal not Sound. All that is produced downstream of the Xover is Sound, and it is the perceived quality of the Sound being produced that has the attraction/detraction element, during a system in use evaluation.
My advisory to an individual with the confidence in their skills and wanting to attempt to attain a improvement to the SQ produced from a Speaker by swapping out Xover components is to work with the Internal Wiring as the initial investigation. Changing Internal Wires can have an impact on the perceived SQ that impresses. It is also one of the most cost effective measures to utilise to increase the experience of what can be attained. When a Internal Cabinet Wire is discovered that meets with ones attraction, this can also be considered for use externally as a Speaker Wire, the unknown is how the Connections at Amp' and Cabinet can have, as a detrimental effect can occur, leaving anticipated expectations not quite met.
If one is really bold, not too concerned for the convenience of using connectors and are in possession of End Game Amps and Speakers that are out of a Warranty period. There is the Option to Wire from the Amp's Internal to the Xover bypassing connectors. As a option it is easily undoable and returned to the original build method.
It does not take long when using the Web Sites that have assessed numerous Cap's for their influence on a sound, that when the most rated ones are costed for , there is a outlay fast approaching a $1000+. That becomes a lot of money and burn in hours to learn if such a change to the Xover has been valuable for the SQ.
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Yep. My lowly B&W 802 series 3 were probably built in 97' when I discovered Troels Gravenson speaker building designs,I was stoked when he does a crossover upgrade for these speakers. I couldn't buy the kit fast enough, talk about a fun project. Most rewarding project I've ever done. I'm gonna tear into them again one day and replace these parts with even better Jantzen parts and silver wire. I could've easily asked Jantzen for his better products and wish I would've.
A diy speaker project is in the works also.
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@carlsbad2, with regard to the Duelund bypass caps, I'm curious to know if you listened to your system before installing the bypass and what change you heard after, also which ones did you chose?
@jaytor, very nice set up you have there and I notice in the photo you provided of your XO that you too appear to use Duelund bypass caps. As there are a variety of Duelunds caps I'm asking because I wish to buy once and cry once 🙂
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@lemonhaze -
I'm using the Dueland 0.01uF JDM Tinned Copper Foil Bypass caps on both the tweeter series cap and the midrange shunt caps, I didn't really notice much if any difference on the midrange caps, but they added a touch of sparkle and airiness in the tweeter circuit.
I added these before the crossover caps were burned in though, so I'm not sure if they would have had the same affect after burn-in. But I'm really happy with the way my speakers are sounding now so don't want to make any changes.
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@jaytor your values may be too small. Try 0.1uF. I use Ayudin True Coppers. Sorry for the spelling.
I don't think the issue here is the brand, but a lot cheaper than the Duelunds.
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I had an old pair of JBL 212's with the sub given to me. I changed the capacitors to new Sonus (I think they were called) capacitors. They really sounded great - big difference, so much so that I regretted selling them.
Capacitors don't wear out but the newer caps are much improved. Swapping out the older for newer caps is not a difficult job, just remember to label the speaker polarity.
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@lemonhaze I've worked 40+ years in an industry where all equipment is continuously in service with very short outage times. So there isn't much testing time available. Generally the engineers (I'm the engineering manager) do a lot of research and have one chance to get it right. It needs to be well designed, prefabricated, and ready to instll quickly. Which is my plan here. I plan to have my speakers down for 1 day, at most 2.
So I guess it is natural that I took that approach with this project. And a good thing too since I've been very slow to get the internal crossovers made. Got traction again when I decided to go external and think I'll have them done in a couple of weeks. Picked up the wood for the caninet this morning after my hike. Right now I'm waiting for my sawblade to come back from the sharpener. Also the Neutrix connectors for the cable from the crossover to the speaker were backordered but I found them somewhere else. It's al coming together.
So I don't plan to try it with and without the bypass capacitors. I chose the .1uF Dueland Copper-Sn foil based on experience and recommendations from friends. If I was doing it now I might go with the copper silver for $30 more each. I agree with Erik that .1uF is the right size.
If you are anticipating doing this job yourself feel free to send me a PM. As a DIYer I'm always willing to spend time helping others.
Jerry
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@carlsbad2, Hey Jerry, thanks for the generous offer. I have a lot of experience designing and modifying XOs. Have been doing this for what seems like forever and have a speaker design of mine about to go into production. The person who asked me to design him a small bookshelf speaker was a customer of mine and now has a retail outlet. He has the prototype but seems to have a problem finding someone to build a good quality veneered box.
After designing the XO I spent some considerable time choosing components and it was then that I settled on the Powertron resistor. Reverting back to Mills, paralleled Kiwame, Mundorf and some others was a big disappointment. I did not have a chance to try Duelund nor Path resistors as it was at this time that I was preparing to leave South Africa to move overseas.
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@carlsbad2
Wow! $100,000 on .... drum roll please ... crossovers!
And I thought cable interconnect folks were obsessed.
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@lemonhaze My good will stands but it sounds like you know more about upgrading crossovers than I do. My component choices were educated guesses based on manufacturer reputations, online reviews, and respected opininions of a good friend.
I have them both built and plan to cut out the walnut box and maybe get it glued together today.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/drhDHtD7pZ5cbQf39
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@carlsbad2
Could you post pictures of the before crossovers ?
Thanks
Rob
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Many times crossover parts and values are selected to get the sound the designers wanted. Just putting in costly parts in many cases will make the speaker sound worse. Different parts have different insertion values you may end up altering the output of one driver over the other or cause the amp to see different OHM loads or have phase issues toss in the fact that most don't even know how to solder properly and it's an overall dumb idea to do. But the audiophile will why I don't consider myself an audiophile I have grown out of it.
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@johnk I respectfully disagree with you. I'll fight to the death for your right to your opinion.
Do you have an example of someone you personally know, even better yet, that you heard before and after, of that sounded worse. I have a friend with a similar speaker to mine. Mine sounded better before the upgrade, now his sounds much better.
Every manufacturer is different, but IMO even high end manufacturers tend to cut corners on the (invisible) crossovers.
Jerry
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@carlsbad2
Thanks , I can see why you are moving the crossovers out of the cabinet .
This is something I have thought about and something highly recommended by Tom Thiel , but making the external cabinet is not part of my skill set . I have pictures posted on the virtual systems of my before and almost complete after crossovers , I just installed the newest Clarity capacitor on the tweeter board and am waiting for Clarity to release the full range of caps to finish with the 1uf for the mid range . My work doesn't look near as refined as yours .
Rob
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@vair68robert I toyed with the idea of having my crossover box made by a friend that does woodwork. Since there are no external controls it isn't hard to make.
Seems making boxes and selling them is a nitch that someone should fill. I don't enjoy woodwork enough and don't need a new business but it would not be hard to mass produce them. Maybe I'll find a young guy and back him financially.
My plan was to replace components on the boards and leave them internal. I was going to have to add a 3rd board for the large inductor. In fact I made one of them but it was going to be real tight. Here is one of the boards (since disassembled):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/stNMSckHnLVPngVdA
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@carlsbad2
Beautiful work. I like your choice of capacitors. Mundorf, at least to my budget, are my favorites. I've used quite a few of the EVO Oil caps in speaker rebuilds, and have always liked their sound. I'm using a mix of Supreme EVO Oils and ClarityCap CSA's, on a current project. Hope to get it completed soon.
Also, I've never done recaps, on both vintage or new speakers, where the recap didn't improve the sound. I've only done like for like recaps. Never anything to mod or change from stock values, and never been disappointed. And I do A/B the stock speaker, to a recapped speaker, for comparison. I even volunteer family members, for an extra set of test ears, and they hear positive differences between the two. So, I don't shy away from tearing into a speaker, if the base design is worthy of the upgrade? Part of the fun.
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Interesting discussion. I am pondering updating the crossover components on my IRS Beta. They are original except that I have "re glued" some of the components that fell off. Odd that they used what seems to be glue gun adhesive and then hung components instead of placing them on the bottom of the crossover enclosure.
In my case, there is Bayer in Germany that developed a modern crossover for the speakers. I wonder how they sound.......
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ervikingo
If you have room move the crossovers as far away from the woofer as possible .
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I think the seductive part about upgrading crossovers (not modifying the network) is that those of us who have done it have heard substantial improvements.
I am of the opinion that I can more easily hear improvement in sound by upgrading parts in key areas (i.e. loudspeaker crossovers, coupling capacitors and output capacitors in amplifiers) than I can spending significant money on cables. Yes, I do think cables make a difference, but after I use good quality cabling I can’t experience as much benefit from going further.
With capacitors, in particular, if they are directly in the signal path or if they are linked to filter power supply, I believe that I can readily hear differences.
I once bought a Musical Paradise preamplifier for the sole purpose of using its internal "binding post" style terminations for coupling capacitors. This was brilliant by the OEM. They placed a slot for the cap on the PCB, much larger than what they supplied, and put a binding post at each end of the capacitor location. With a turn of the hand (just like tightening a binding post on a speaker or amp) you could insert the leads to new capacitors! This was so much fun and enlightening.
I also give props to the Amp Designer as they were acknowledging how different capacitors can sound.
Other examples of OEMs recognizing this are those that offer capacitor upgrades in their speakers and amps. I know Atmasphere and Modwright (I really respect those guys too) do that and a host of speaker manufacturers, though not many to my knowledge.
AudioNote and Elekit encourage users to upgrade or swap.
When I sell my used gear that I’ve upgraded this way, I disclose it to the buyer and tell them I have saved the original parts or have resourced them and can replace them if they want. Buyers who get it typically take the upgrade and old/spec’d parts. There’s no question a 1.50 film cap made in Taiwan often used in children’s electronics is (a) used in some awfully expensive products (I’m looking at you Harbeth); and (b) a nice Wima, Nichicon, Audyn, ClarityCap, VCap, etc. is better. [In fairness to Harbeth, I have seen photos where they also use what look to be beautiful Clarity Caps made in England--nice!]
Finally, I think those of us who have cracked open gear or built gear have learned many of these things firsthand. It’s not similar to anything else--cars, instruments, etc.
With high end audio, I see there is an inherent fear about messing with the design, hurting resale, and voiding warranty. Those are legitimate concerns, to a point, which can be mitigated or removed.
The charming and super knowledgeable Eve Anna Manley of Manley Labs (and her team) invited conversations with me about my upgrades--and they were not about voiding my warranty. Ms. Manley told me that if I liked my caps (linked to the RCA outputs) to use them--they’re great. But she also told me to experiment as they did. She said they spent countless hours listening to caps and thought the brand they chose (I think it was multi-cap or sonicap) worked really well in this amp. She said the same thing about tubes--they loved basic Eletroharmonix in this preamp, but she encouraged me to experiment.
I think one reason we don’t see manufacturers offering swap and play binding posts for capacitors is that there can (and typically is) huge amount of current running through these and the user would need to discharge the current before popping them out. That involves too much liability. But theoretically (if it was as safe as changing a cable), I think many would offer it.
Great topic!
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@ervikingo
A few years back, Paul McGowan at PS Audio, recapped his IRS-V speakers. Paul asked for Arnie NuDell's help with the project. Arnie recommended Mundorf capacitors. The Mundorf EVO Oil caps, that I mentioned, are very good for the money. Clear, clear, and very transparent. They helped create a palpable midrange, when I used them for a speaker recap.
Good luck.
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@gdnrbob
I would be highly suspect of anyone who thinks they know more than the speaker designer. If they know so much, why haven’t they designed their own speaker.
My 2 cents...
It’s not about claiming to know more than the designer, it is a matter of getting around the marketing price point limitations of the speaker. For the manufacturer to move from caps that cost less than a dollar each, to ones that cost $5 or more, ends up raising the price at the consumer level by much more.
The fact is, that the vast majority of speakers at low to moderate prices, are loaded with cheap capacitors, sand cast resistors, iron core inductors, that compromise the capability of the speaker. You’d be surprised how many well respected speakers, even though they may still sound good, could still sound better with better crossover components.
What is being discussed is, swapping out the same values, with the same values. but better quality caps and resistors. I have been doing this for years, and the results are always improvements. Usually more detail, and bigger, more defined soundstage. Sometimes it is more than subtle.
But yes, many times people do know more than the designer.
Case in point: GR Research upgrade kits for Klipsch RP-600M’s with redesigned crossover. What is an unlistenable speaker for me, becomes a reasonably good one after the upgrades.
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I have found some rather expensive speakers that look expensive and fitted with beautifully machined spikes to give the impression of great care and engineering chops, but have cheaped out on the XO components which are hidden from view. Push-on connectors are used on the internal wiring to speed up assembly and other sound limiting short cuts are taken. All this cost saving is doing the resultant sound no favours.
Something mostly overlooked either from ignorance or deliberate acceptance is the orientation of the inductors. If two coils are close to each other there will be coupling, this is how transformers work, where they talk to each other causing congestion and smear. Keeping them far apart helps but of course will require a larger platform causing even more problems. Another reason that the coils are not optimally aligned is because one of them needs to be mounted, not lying flat, but upright on the rounded part which makes mounting it more difficult and time consuming.
If they are mounted correctly then they can be placed close to each other with virtually zero coupling. This happens when they are positioned as two links of a chain would lie.
Then there is the internal wiring, nasty sand cast resistors and the almost exclusive use of PCBs. Yes, there is much that can be improved. We are not talking about redesigning the XO circuit but improving what is there by replacing components with same value but better parts.
When I work on optimising the XO I endeavor to remove any terminals using brass. Those great looking chunky speaker terminals are bad news. Usually the brass, IACS about 27%, is first plated with nickel, IACS about 24%, which polishes to a high finish, and then gold plated. The polished nickel allows for a very fine looking and attractive finish. So, many dissimilar metals playing havoc with your precious audio signal. The push-ons are also brass!
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For the manufacturer to move from caps that cost less than a dollar each, to ones that cost $5 or more, ends up raising the price at the consumer level by much more.
...and just to be clear, people are generally not upgrading $1 capacitors to $5 capacitors. Just go out to Parts Express or Parts ConneXion, choose a capacitance (like 0.1uF) and look at the range of pricing. Want to spend $431.68 on a single cap? You can do it! Image what a crossover full of premium parts would do to the price of a speaker.
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Yeah, I spent about $3000 for the parts in my current crossovers. These are high quality parts, but FAR from the most expensive parts available. I’ve seen some crossovers from Tidal and other high-end brands that use parts that are several times more expensive. Even at volume pricing, these crossovers could easily cost $5000 to $8000 in parts.
A number of years ago, I talked to the designer of some high-end speakers about how he picked crossover components. He said he listened to a variety of parts and selected the ones that offered acceptable performance for his cost target and the available space, AND that were also available in quantity from a vendor he was confident in. But he said the choice was rarely his favorite from a sound quality perspective.
A lot of the best sounding components are made by small manufacturers with limited production capacity. A speaker manufacturer that intends to sell hundreds or thousands of units can’t take the chance of designing in parts that may not be available when they need them.
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I think it's true that in general, speaker makers have put a retail price of 10:1 at least for the electronics, so a $1 capacitor has to be sold for $10 to make a profit.
Exceptions here are manufacturers that make their own drivers, they can exceed these margins by quite a bit.
B&W and Magico are some of the rare manufacturers who use high end scrossover ocmponents in their high end speakers.
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@simonmoon, good post.
As you describe, results of sensible XO mods I've done have always improved the sound, ranging from a clear and easily heard upgrade to the astonishing.
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I used my Altec 604e with the original N-1500 crossover.
After 10 years I bought an autotransformer DIY crossover from Germany. I liked it more than the original one. As I understand lately the schematics of this new crossover wasn’t good but better parts quality made speakers sound more transparent despite losing some neutrality.
Then I upgraded it with Duelund RS, Jupiter VT and Duelund Cu-Sn bypass that made the sound even better - more resolution, tone and clarity.
When I bought a measurement mic MiniDSP I found some significant issues with this crossover schematics that caused serious dips in frequency response.
So I decided to build the original N-1500 with better parts. I used old N-1500 inductors with Duelund RS, Jupiter VT, Jensen Aluminium foil, Duelund Bypass (Cu-Sn and Silver) that I already used in German crossover plus constant Duelund Cast resistors (that I used instead of variable resistor in original N1500). So I get even better and more neutral sound with much better midrange and bass. In the end I exchanged the inductor to Jantzen copper foil Wax Coil inductor that improved dynamic and bass even more.
I never tried the famous Mastering LAB crossover that should improve bass extension of price of sensitivity and smooth high frequency frequency response. I don’t think it will sound better than my current crossover that use much better quality parts than Mastering LAB does.
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@carlsbad2
I took another look.
I do believe that I read it as written.
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