MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

@mijostyn   : 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

Audiogon Discussion Forum

R.

Another one interesting cartridge information from a true expert. This gentleman is the retipper I’m using and is a great one: Joseph Long.

Btw, the Goldring 1042 uses a similar stylus diamond that the Replicant 100 however its VTF is only 1.5grs.

@needlestein is the Agon moniker of J.Long.

R.

Raul,

Have you used the Stanton Epoch II LZ9S? I have a NOS LZ9S and HZ9S. I posted the specifications here:

Dear @theophile : Good/nice to meet you again in Agon.

No, unfortunatelly I never had the chance to listen in my system but were Stanton top of the line in its times as were the CS 100, both 981 II and Pickering 7500.

All those share with the Epoch the same famous Stereohedron stylus and all those are the only Stanton/Pickering cartridges that came with that  individually Calibration Card reserved for the top models.

I still own the 981 HZ that I use with the Pickering stylus holder because it makes a better/tigther asssemble with the 981 body than with the Stanton own stylus and performs a little better.

I only can add that you are lucky enough the own two very good MM cartridges that even today are way competitive under any quality standards.

Btw, when I started and through the years in that long MM thread I seen on Ebay for sale and never pull the triger due that I owned all its other " brothers ".

I think that you will like it when you can give a listen sessions and if you can could share with us your experiences with in this thread or the long MM one.

R.

I don't.

Theophole, is the Epoch II LZ9S a modern, current product? I own an NOS Stanton 981LZS and an NOS CS100, but I’ve never heard of “Epoch”. Thx. 

Lew, here is a discussion on AudioKarma about the series

Also here is some more info

Some more

Dear @theophile : I think that some of the gentlemans that posted about in AK have a misunderstood because never existed the Streohedron III ( as one of them named. ) and : why now I that?

because the dimensions of that III version in the Epoch 9S is exactly the same dimensions that comes in my Stanton 981 HZ MK2 and same cantilever length.

In the other side and looking the SR , your calibration data and my manual and calibration card seems to me that the cartridges you own as I told you before are very good performers but at least for the information not superior to the 981 MK2. Obviously that I can’t confirm it but through my first hand several experiences with any kind of cartridges there is " nothing " that could tell me can beats the 981MK2 ( HZ. ), even my sample cartridge seems/could be better because Stanton says that its high frequency goes over 50khz and in the Epoch 9 stops at 50khz ( important?. I don’t think so but is " something . Other issue is that in the SR JH said that for the Epoch could track  the Telarc 1812 it did it only at VTF 1,25grs. and mine does it cleanly at 1.0gr. and I never tested at 0.75grs. on VTF but I will do some day because at the end it tracks 100u.

All in as every day is a learning day and this one was and is a learning onr for me.

Than’ks again and surely I will wait for your first hand experiences with.

R.

I am seriously thinking of sending both the LZ-9S and the HZ-9S to you Raul. I haven't got the arm for them here.

Dear @theophile  : That you mentioned  that is extremely appreciated and yes I could czan test and compare against the 981 what the HZ does but I think that before that we can interchange information where maybe I can help for you can listen in your system:

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

Thank's and again truly appreciated,

R.

Dear friends: Through the posts that all of youposted we, more or less, are in agreement that evrything the same wecan have first rate/top quality listen system experiences with the different kind of cartridge motors:MC, MM, MI etc, etc.

Obviously that with the cartridge self colorations.

Well, I was doing some testsusing the top same LP tracks with different choosed LOMC,HOMC,MM,MF,MI. trying to find out ( other thmaiat its intrinsecal cartridge  colorations. ) where mainly belongs the quality levels of each top cartridge sample and I think ( something I'm not totally sure. ) that comesfrom the " kind " of transiente cartridge response this is the Speed of that transient response.

Is it that way of think about true or just does not matters?  whatdo you think abou

t?  I would like to learn through your first hand similar experiences.

Thank's you in advance and your posts heavy welcomed.

R.

There likely is something to the idea that cartridge transient response is very important to conveying the sense of a live performance (studio or concert), because for me when I attend live music (as I will be doing in about 2 hours from now), the outstanding quality of real live music compared to electronic reproduction of music is the dynamics of the former. Dynamic responses or the sense of a dynamic response requires both a very rapid transient response and a wide range of amplitude (difference between the highest SPLs and the lowest SPLs). Not only do cartridges have shortcomings in this regard, but also speakers. At least that is my sense of it.

I agree completely with lewm’s comments. The “outstanding quality of real live music compared to electronic reproduction of music is the dynamics of the former”. And not just as concerns the wide amplitude one hears in live music, but how the dynamic movement in the music is expressed during the literally infinite number of subtle dynamic gradations one hears in live music (a key element of musical phrasing).

I can’t claim to be able to be able to explain or prove, in technical terms, why this is the case, but “fast transient speed” is closely tied to how well the rhythmic elements of the music are expressed by the equipment. To my simple mind it also explains why some gear (not just cartridges and speakers) sounds dynamically/rhythmically alive while others sound dead or lethargic even when capable of wide amplitude.

Dear @lewm @frogman :  So,more or less we agree about the way critical importance of the SPEED transient response.

In a live MUSIC event between you and the MUSIC exist almost only the AIR when in a home audio systems it's a nightmare about and transient speed reproduction is way to way different and totally imposible to achieve that grat dynamics and power that only live MUSIC has.

Both audio proccess recording and playing almost destroy MUSIC, even that we like what we  can listen through.

We can't do nothing with the recording proccess but we can take extreme care for the room/system play proccess.

So, if we agree of the importance of the transient response speed then we must be in alert that the audio signal trip from the cartridge to the speaker output be the shortest as we can:less is more.

Our system set upshould has only the system links neccesaries to listen it. Any additional cables,connectors, after market " enhancers " and the like will modify and and develops a degradation to that transient response speed and I think that could includes the SUTs.

I can't  know what you or others think on this specific system set up issue and obviously opinions are welcomed.

R.

**** the audio signal trip from the cartridge to the speaker output be the shortest as we can:less is more. ****

@rauliruegas , My experience has also been that less is often more. I realize that there are other design choices that come into play, but this would explain, at least to some degree, why the Decca cartridges have that wonderful sense of speed and immediacy. No cantilever. Less is more, Shorter (mechanical) signal path. An extension (🤔) of this idea would seem to be the sonic benefits one often hears by having signal paths in electronics that are as short as possible, the elimination of solder joints and, ideally, connectors in tone arm (and high level) cables.

With the Decca cartridges I have owned, I’ve always wondered whether their noteworthy zip and immediacy were not a fortuitous byproduct of mistracking owing to their lack of a cantilever. Sometimes imperfect is more.

I've never experienced mistracking with either the Jubilee or the Reference!

Re Deccas: @lewm , I suppose it could be, but I don’t hear it as such. Whenever I hear mistracking from a cartridge I hear it as an obvious distortion. Sometimes subtle, sometimes obviously grating. When I hear other cartridges mistracking I don’t hear an increase in immediacy or rhythmic thrust, but rather, tonal/textural distortion. Additionally, “immediacy” is not experienced only when there are loud transients or complex passages in the music which are common causes of mistracking. Instead, immediacy is experienced as a general sense of aliveness in the music at every loudness level, even very soft levels; like a coiled spring ready to jump at any moment.

I agree it’s not audible as “mistracking” necessarily. That was my point.

@lewm   :  ​​​​I agree with @frogman , it's not " immediacy "  where this characterisitc exist even in mistracking.

It's like in horn speakers where we have that immediacy kind of sound that does not changes during cartridge mistracking.

My first hand multiple experiences with my cantileverless Ikeda cartridges tell me that those kind of cartridges could not pick-up all the grooves information as medium/high cartridge compliance due that its grooves ridding is not do it with " aplomb "..

R.

Dear @mijostyn   You posted 25 posts in this thread and knowing you and your experience levels is truly weird that in no one of your posts mentioned the characterisitcs of the sound you listen in your system that permits that you can have and overall evaluation and comparison in between any audio item that in this case/thread is about cartridge kind of motor design quality valuations in between. You only said that your Lambda SL is your champ because you say so and that's all even that some gentlemans posted the next statements that  permits more or less to have an idea what to take in count to give each one of us answers to the thread subject:

" Startling attack, immediacy, presence, full-bodied tonality, dynamics, and imaging. "

" MUSIC and MUSIC quality levels belongs to Transient Response in a home audio system or live MUSIC.

That Transient Response is what gives us first than all immediacy followed by dynamics. "

" without rhythmic integrity music is pretty meaningless. "

"  “fast transient speed” is closely tied to how well the rhythmic elements of the music are expressed  "

Yes, I would like to know what do you think on those statements and if you can add something else to enhance the dialogue for all of us. Thank's in advance.

R.

I posit a scenario about live music:

This is not a theoretical exercise. We have all experienced it. Music/ someone singing or both/multliples. We are outside of the building. There is no direct sound transmission of the live in the flesh performance. All the doors and windows, all passages between outside and inside are closed. The sound which is transmitted to the outside environment is comprised of the structural, windows, doors, leaking soud to the exterior. A highly distorted transmission of sound.

Yet we KNOW indisputably that the leaked distorted sound comes from actual person(s) and instruments.

There is a quality to a live in the flesh non-amplified voice or instrument that we recognise from a block away. Even when were just catch it in the distance and listen as we walk toward the source. We know irrefutably that someone is actually singing and someone is actually playing. Even when the sound transmits through a closed building.

It must be a dynamic-transient power which gets diluted in our recording and playback attempts.

@rauliruegas I generally stay away from making those kinds of comments Raul because people have no idea what my baseline is, what my system sounds like. I have no idea what your system sounds like. If you tell me a cartridge has great bass I have no way of interpreting that. Comments like, "low distortion" or "Great tracking" apply to all systems. I mentioned that the Hyperion was a bit bright on my system, a problem I can easily correct with digital EQ. The Hyperion might be perfect for someone with a system that is tilted towards the bass. 

Because I have set up and measured many systems I can assure you that the performance of individual systems is vastly different, even with the best equipment. The result is that people's tastes are vastly different and their assessment of equipment is biased by this making it impossible for me or anyone to interpret what they are saying.  All I can say of my cartridges is that they are all within a hair of each other. They are all great performers from a mechanical perspective. The Hyperion leans towards brightness on my system and I wish the MC Diamond had a higher output level. The Lyra is perfect, no alterations needed......on my system. 

I agree with Mijostyn. For me, the only thing I can learn from reading the opinions of others on this or that piece of gear is that if 8 or 9 out of 10 hold the same or similar opinion, there may be some truth to it. Still, I approach even that much consensus with caution.

Dear @mijostyn : " I generally stay away from making those kinds of comments Raul because people have no idea what my baseline is, what my system sounds like......"

As lewm you have a misunderstood of what I ask through my post because I don´t care ( well, I care but it’s not what I posted to you ) how your sound system is in the same way that that was not the thread questions.

As those posted other gentlemans statements main sound Characteristics are what could makes the differences why we like more this kind of cartridge than other or others because what we like is not the main issue of this thread and maybe you have additional whole listen characteristics that you can share with us. This is all about.

We have to have specific references when we make tests MUSIC/sound comparisons/evaluations. not only on cartridges but with any audio item.

For some or many of us those posted statements is the " food " that is already in each one table ready to eat, maybe not for you because exist other main characteristics that you have and we need to take in count or maybe you are in agreement with and nothing to add.

R.

Reference Points only last as long as the tome it takes to discover the next reference point.

Anybody who thinks there is not a next reference point, in my view has lost the desire to discover new experiences with end sound being produced using audio equipment.

Additionally, if an individual has built a system that leans towards giving the Bass Frequency a larger slice of pie, in relation to coherence across the frequency range. Why ?, would it be suggested the individual is in need of a device to reduce the Bass Notes presence. Is not the individual entitled to produce he end sound that gives them the most satisfaction. 

Dear @theophile  : " We know irrefutably that someone is actually singing and someone is actually playing. Even when the sound transmits through a closed building. "

Totally right and the main issue belongs to the live MUSIC kind of transients response that's absolutely UNIQUE and we can't mimic in anyway.

From that unique transient response comes the MUSIC dynamic power that permits to listen and know for sure that the sound  coming ( as you posted ):

" There is a quality to a live in the flesh non-amplified voice or instrument. "

Any room system is far far far away of that unique transients response.

Main differences between any room/system and in our thread subject between cartridges belongs and starts to that transient response and its speed.

Mijostyn ( I named because I'm still waiting for.....) could have a different points of view why he thinks/likes his Lambda SL is a " hair " better than the MC Diamond, unfortunatelly he never disclosed in this thread what is his take.

Anyway, only an opinion but again I agree with you.

R.

OK Raul, Here it is. I prefer very expensive moving coil and moving Iron cartridges, recent ones. There is not an antique cartridge I would care to audition. I do not collect cartridges, I use them up and move on. The best cartridges  sound surprisingly alike. The sound quality of any system is far more dependent on the speakers and room. Asking people what cartridge they prefer is colored by their own preferences and the quality of their system. 

Dear friends: Seems to me that we forgot of one live MUSIC main characteristic that is its natural continuous flow.

That characteristic can’t even in our system because we have no " continuity " in what the stylus pick-up under grooves ride due to those stylus " jumps " ( at microscopic level. ) during tracking.

Obviously that each cartridge has different abilites about and the " flow " of the MUSIC through any of those cartridges has different quality levels.

Btw, @mijostyn this and all the other live MUSIC characteristics are what permits any one of us to evaluate/compare cartridges in between to have each one of us answer or answers to the questions of this thread. Your " reference " on antique and today cartridge models is useless and futile ( for say the least ) because things are that all those MUSIC characteristics function/are working with any cartridge: new or vintage, this is not the matters of the OP and through your 27 posts you touched at least 3 times ( ? ? ? ).

Anyway, what all of you think about that MUSIC flow continuity that I see as a characteristic.

R.

@rauliruegas "live MUSIC main characteristic that is its natural continuous flow” thanks Raul for `very fundamental question!

some technical points to watch to achieve it:

1) very important for realistic sound is a phase information of different tones (freq.), which is “distorted” by speaker design details, diff-freq.-speakers misalignment to the listening point), cartridge design (cantilever, diamond, coils inductance, damper). Measuring phase/group delay of total system to the listener ears would be ideal test, but it is not available yet.

-designing system with limited (ideally none) number of feedback loops and (phase/level) distorting sound by too-many filters in a system, incl. not really needed damping, limiting bandwidth etc. I found as excellent 2 stage tube amp with almost no fb-loop sounds better from “live music alike side”, despite lower power and bit higher single tone distortion.

-MC cartridges are more precise and sound good, IF interconnect btw cartridge terminals and phono-pre/SUT is excellent, low resistance / inductance etc., which is hard to achieve (few ohms in the arm cable and old contacts kill it). For aged arms/cables I prefer excellent MM carts, like AT-ML180 / 170, sounding naturally and requiring lower track force (I use 1gf).

Dear @mijostyn : " There is not an antique cartridge I would care to audition "

I understand you because you have no single idea of the very high quality level performance of someof those " antique " designs ".

Well, several years ago I bougth the Empire MC5 and never listened till in the last 4 months  I even did not know that the cartridge is an owner stylus replacement design and I took in count of that when I try to mount in the arm and seen that I can’t put the screws in place ( you can’t almost see the joint between that replacement part. ).

I have to say that I did not had any exiting spectation about other that to take a listen to this vintage design that in reality never appeared in the market as it and I just found out one sample in NOS condition.

After 4 months is the cartridge I’m listening day by day and enjoying truly MUSIC, this is a huge/outstanding discovery of the past no matters what and can beats almost all the today top LOMC cartridges I listened in my room system including the MC Diamond and Etna Lambda SL, yes differences in between these cartridges are not nigth and day but the Empire MC5 is something to listening it and to enjoy its LP reproduction.

The design and build including the stylus diamond was made by Ernst Benz his self,nothing less. What a wonderful MUSIC Instrument.

https://www.turntableneedles.com/Empire-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-MC5-Ernst-Benz_p_752.html

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=16132

" Ernst Benz was an engineer working and developing delicate instrumentation (such as accelerometers) for CalTech in the ’60’s, and later managed an industrial jewel company in Switzerland manufacturing timepiece and industrial jewels as well as sapphire phonograph needles. He formed his own company in the early ’70’s, with the desire to produce a superior diamond phonograph stylus. To further facilitate this, he developed a high temperature vacuum furnace for bonding diamond to sapphire (for which he was awarded a patent). Throughout the ’70’s, Benz Micro became one of the largest suppliers of diamond styli in the world, providing support for such companies as Ortofon, Philips, Pickering, ADC, Audio Technica, and Empire (which was later acquired by Benz). "

MC 5 surrounded with today top room/systems is nothing less that Awesome and could be even today and near future a true challenge to beat it for any cartridge manufactuer.

In reproduction has it any anomalies? none that I detected and maybe because I’m not listening the hardware but enjoying MUSIC.

I think that in those old times I paid no more than 200.00 for it.

R.

That video wherein J Carr talks about many aspects of cartridge use and design reveals also that Benz helped Lyra obtain cantilevers, in addition to the brands named above.