MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear @lewm  : No, wenever used the MAT 02 even 20 years ago when we started with the Essential 3150 I not even knewnothing about the MAT 02

Our white papers/targets was to design a fully discrete phonolinepreamp ( yes, I know that the MAT02 is a discrete design. ) where we choosed all the cative/passive parts and decided to use bipolars in the input gain with MC cartridges because goes a little better with bipolars than with FETs.

Obviously that it's way more easy to work with FET because bipolars must be in matched pairs what is not so easy to achieve it. Around 6 years latter came the 3160 model using bipolars too at the input gain but with different transistors.The MM stage were where weuse FETs because were more adequated for MM than for MC cartridges.

Transistorand FET devices improved over time and today we have better parts. Now, obviously that MC design works  fine with FETs especially today but even that wefollow taking the time with bipolars and choosing the more neutral devices because even than in theory must be the sameour first hand experiencesis that there are minute differencesin between transistor and Fets.

First timeI been aware of the MAT02/03 was when Ibougth second hand myLevinson Reference 20.6 monobloks and we made it some mods and J.Curl used those MAT in that truly great amplifier design.

 

We, like to choose and listen to all the passive/active parts in the Essential 3180 design.

 

R.

 

Hello Raul, just wanted to say Hi!
I still have the Empire EDR 9 body that you recommended many years ago, that Carver receiver is dead but I am temporarily using a Rega I/O integrated amplifier just for the SS phono section while I save up for a integrated tube amp and the same brands higher end tube phono preamp. I'm glad to see you're still here. I've appreciated talking with you in the past and I remember you fondly.

Forgot to add, anyone who has had work done successfully on an Astatic or Glanz cartridge, please share. (My reading suggests that Glanz MFG types are similar in design and function to Astatic MF types, and possibly that both of these moving flux cartridge lines came from the same source in Japan.)

I found a business in CA that stocks lots of NLA transistors, both NPN and PNP.  I bought both types from them when I was trying to get my Beveridge direct-drive amplifiers up and running, which I finally did do.  Contact "Jameson Electronics".  I forget what city they are in but definitely CA. I can get further info for you if you need it after Googling. MAT02 are NLA also, but I think there are later subs (e.g., MATXX, where X is numerical) that might work; you'd have to read the fine print on the data sheets. I have a small stash of the 02s, but I have never blown one.

@lewm  I am following the notation on the data sheets, which use wording such as "complement to type XYZ", and of Horowitz and Hill (Art of Electronics Ed 3, 2015, pp106-108). Just wondering if I had misinterpreted..

Agreed about the superb MAT series. I use both PNP and NPN complements in my pre. After AD threatened to drop the PNP's I bought a jarfull and whatever is left over is going in my will !

I think JLTi is single-ended and all solid state. (Yes?) AW used an FET in his FVP5, which is also SE but tube based. The MAT02 and other similar bipolar was used in his RTP3C, which was his TOTL and balanced. It’s all in his “Preamp Cook Book”, including schematics.

lewm, for several years now I've used a JLTi phono stage which was designed, at least in part, by Allen Wright.  Mine is an earlier unit, intended for use with a wall wart.  However, a (more knowledgable) audio pal built a regulated power supply for use with mine which was a worthwhile upgrade.  About that time JLTi began offering regulated power supplies as an option.  Anyway, it is a SS design so now I wonder if it includes the MAT02?

Regarding the performance, early on I took my unit to a friend's to participate in a phono stage shoot out with about five contenders (since forgotten most of the others).  Needless to say I was pleased when the JLTi was tied with a Manley Steelhead as the favored sonics by those in attendance.  I've not compared it to anything else lately but still consider it a "sleeper".

Terry, my expertise with solid state is not very high.  And my interests run toward learning about gain stages.  But suffice to say that I followed advice from the late Allen Wright in his "Tube Preamp Cookbook", to learn how to build a balanced, hybrid cascode input stage with a solid state device on the bottom and tube on top. One of the devices AW recommended for that, and what he used in his own TOTL phono stage, is the MAT02, which is a bipolar transistor.  After reading his book, I incorporated such a gain stage into my Atma-sphere MP1 phono section.  Turns out, Raul and Jose' used the MAT02 or similar in their series of phonolinepreamps, for the MC gain stage.  They use an FET, I think, for high output cartridges. (Their phonolinepreamps have two totally separate phono sections, one each for LOMC and MM/MI.)  Anyway, maybe you were thinking about a balanced circuit, rather than "push-pull".  Which of course you can build with tubes, too.

I think I recall that PNP and NPN power transistors can be paired to create a push-pull output stage.  That's the better way to do it rather than with PNP on both sides.  But that is as far as I can recall without opening a book. With tubes, there is no issue. Anyone who wants to correct me is welcome to do so.

When I refer to an Improvement, Bettered, Betterment.

At no time do I suggest the circuit has been changed, I only offer a comment on how the end sound has been perceived, and if there is a detection it leans toward  my own unique preference.  

In my experiences of witnessing the end result of component exchanges, this is commonly the end assessment.

One on a redesign for a CDP, hand wound OCC Silver Tranx's were added to compliment all mod's already undertaken and experienced by myself.

The Silver Tranx's were awful to myself and had undone a lot of good work in place.

Another listener and the EE doing the mod's were very appraising of the influence.    

@lewm Perhaps I am misusing the terms, and you could correct my usage. I am using similar pairs of transistors, NPN and PNP, such as Toshiba 2SC3421 and 2SA1358. Or pairs from the MAT series. Also available on one chip, as in THAT 340.

That’s what I mean by complementary. And since positronic tubes are in short supply ... Is that poor usage? If so, how should I refer to a circuit in which components on the positive rail are pretty much a mirror image of the negative rail?

And yes, in the phono / pre. It’s quiet.

Raul, several years ago I acquired an MF2500 that is in bad shape. In fact Andy Kim advised me not to spend money on it, but I think that’s because he didn’t think it was worth much to begin with. Can you recommend someone? It certainly needs a retip but may need more. Thx.

Dear friends: Yesterday received a call from the gentleman that came at my place with his CH P1/X1 and ask me for the model of the Astatic cartridge he listened here and tell me that he really still impressed with its quality level through his CH and my phonolinepreamp unit.

Yes, it's something unexpected for a 200 vintage cartridge. I still own the Astatic MF 300 that I think is new because I don't remember been tested, I will do and we will see. 

 

R.

Terry, when you advised a push pull complementary device, were you thinking about a phono stage? Or an amplifier? Certainly that topology is more commonly associated with amplifier output stage design. In fact, I know of no phono stage in history that used a complementary push pull output stage. Unless you could say that the Atma-spher M P1 and MP3 preamps, which use a circlotRon output linestage might fit that description, broadly. Also, I just wanted to point out sheepishly that you can certainly do a fully complementary push pull output stage with tubes. It’s been done many many times , in the history of our hobby.

Dover, I am aware of the difference between a capacitor and a resistor. By comparing the Russian SSG capacitors to a TX resistor I was only suggesting an analogy as regards the property of transparency. Most regard the TX2575 foil resistor as very neutral and transparent, as resistors go. The SSGs are similar, as capacitors go, in my opinion.

Raul, I am aware that tiny differences in capacitor value can alter RIAA. The SSGs are extremely tightly matched to their stated values, using my Sencore capacitor tester. The caps I replaced were a good match to the SSGs. This was in a tube phono stage, not the MP1.

@pindac When you do go to solid state, I suggest a full complementary push-pull design. A NiCad battery power supply is also beneficial. These are two things you can’t do with tubes, and both matter.

Of course, multiple devices in the first stage differential amplifier from the cartridge to reduce noise. And (discrete) aerospace BJT’s. Last, I would build in filters at about 200 Hz and 50 Hz for woofer and sub - you may need them. I don’t know if you should bother with Bessel, or just go with Butterworth filters. I am building a Bessel, but it gets forced onto the back burner, so can’t tell you how it sounds yet..

Dear @richardkrebs : How you doing?  rauliruegas@hotmail.com

R.

When the Pair of Bespoke Phon's, of which I have one in use, was undergoing being built. Part of my commitment to the design was to contribute to the purchasing of parts to be used or tried out for experimental purposes.

As the Prototypes progressed, an increase to the alternate parts to be exchanged were being introduced, as a purely experimental venture.

All selected Parts inclusive of Caps, Resistors were perfectly matched to each other, I can't recall exactly but feel confident the criteria for accuracy was as low as practically sensible to read for the parts. I'm sure one man's cut off for being an accurate match is another man's poison?

The Prototype was under this type of control for part matching from initial build through to final selections being made.

As a supplier of Parts, I found this accuracy at times to be quite costly, as Cap's were bought in excess, with many only to become discards. Resistors were more Pocket Book Friendly.

Additionally when selected Parts were to be exchanged, the exchange part had been exposed to a period of burn in, to give it a improved chance to perform at its best. The EE was even making allowances for new solder needing a burn in period. 

Having Two Prototypes running Parallel as a build, made it very easy to evaluate changes being made as there was only on Phon' receiving the mod's at a time.   

When the end sound was first discovered that was really wanted to be worked on, other parts on the Schematic were swapped out to see how the end sonic was effected.

Valve Bases were swapped, the impact on the end sonic was quite relevant, as different bases were discernible for altering the sonic. The Bases selected in the end, were a Pure Copper Pin design, but were also a design where the Valve fits as if it is almost mechanically fastened. Certainly not tube exchanging friendly. These Bases really stood out on how the end sonic was perceived for being a betterment.

My experience of having been present to assess the impact on the end sound of a Phon' as a result of exchanging components, has been that there are Components that can create a end sonic that is extremely attractive in comparison to an alternate part used, especially one selected for the high spec' and matching.

Not only did I receive a Phon' that has been carefully produced using parts not typically selected for their matched levels. 

I also received a Phon' voiced to my own unique wants using Parts that are not typically selected for the Spec' and matched levels.

Is there really any need to be looking anywhere else to have a experience of listening to Vinyl?

For me yes, do the same once more with a design I have recently been experiencing on a regular basis, but this time postpone the venture to a later date and do to it all once more with a SS Design. 

Why not have the best of both Schematic Types that are affordable to oneself, at their fingertips to be experienced, as Phon' Only, Phon + SUT, Phon + Head Amp.

I know one thing for sure, as result of having Two Bespoke Designed Phon's produced, one Valve Input / Output and SS, by two very very skilled EE's in this field. 

I will still have substantial monies in reserve, through my not using the route of purchasing only one Branded Design of a particular schematic type, that may be able to prove itself as being close as a equivalent to one of my options.

I will state it once more, that the user of a Vinyl Source, who really enjoys their replays, and would like to venture into experiencing a replay that is maybe able to deliver a sonic that is perceived as being more refined to their usual experiences.

DOES not have to spend Stupid Sums of Monies to experience Phon's, that may just prove through being experienced, to be more than enough to be end game keepers. 

I am confident that a selection of Vinyl users, owning commercial Brand Phon's, could sell on these models, and for the monies received or a small addition, get more out in front with a electronic device. If choosing to use a non commercial route to achieve their next Phon' experience.

Russian silver mica capacitors on eBay and give them a try....

These are absolutely as transparent and neutral as a TI TX2575 resistor. 

This is not possible. Capacitors have phase shifts, resistors don't.

 

Dear @lewm  :Through my audio years I modfied the elctronics I owned but  never touched any RIAA circuit mainly for what terry9 pointed out about in this thread.

Of course that all depends of the manufacturers quality designs and the owner targets.

First issue with the RIAA it's that is not linear but a developed curve whre any frequency change affects around two frequency octaves and this fact means that will introduce a coloration/distortion added that many times and depending of the quality system resolution we can or not aware of it.

It's not only about colorations but RIAA overall deviation.

In our designed units we can't even change a 0.022 uf and not only for all those but we were and are so demanding that going from measured 0.022uf to 0.023uf has a consequence, nothing comes by free depending on that design and your targets and we have to think that that cap is not only the cap but its very close relation ship wwith the other passive parts.

Well, that's me and nothing more than an opinion.

 

R.

I don’t design RIAA circuitry. That’s over my head. I substituted.022 uF caps into an RIAA that already required .022uF.

@lewm  : " I have used.01uF and .022uF values mostly, in an RIAA circuit,  "

Was a RIAA circuit designed by you?. In a RIAA circuit using caps adding capacitance ( somewhere ) changes the RIAA deviation curve but if was you who designed it then you made a new calibration and if not that was a very bad " move " even if you like the result.

 

R.

I have a box of Russian Cap's for a Speaker Xover design that was put in place for me.

I highly recommend to anyone who knows how to solder and likes to experiment with different capacitor types that you acquire some Russian silver mica capacitors on eBay and give them a try. They are VERY large for very small values but very inexpensive. I have used.01uF and .022uF values mostly, in an RIAA circuit, and I use one at the inputs of my Beveridge amplifiers. The highest value I know about is 0.13uF, and those are about as big as half a pack of cigarets (if anyone can remember a pack of cigarets). These are absolutely as transparent and neutral as a TI TX2575 resistor. This is not just my opinion; the Russian silver micas have a bunch of followers on TubeDIY Asylum. They generally are rated for 350V, so can be used in most circuits.

Dear @lewm  : We need in the RIAA passive trusty ( bullet proof.) parts and the air electric has several issues about and what you can get today are variable value caps not fixed ones. For me it's out of question in the 3180 but I had to learn about and I did it thank's to terry.

 

In the other side audiophiles are not mentally prepared for the almost absolute neutrality with Wima/Vishay/Kemet caps in the audio signal. Almost all audiophiles areaccustom to additional colors other than the natural MUSIC color in the LP reproduction.. Now, if they do not know thatsome of those caps are in the audio signal you can be sure that never will be aware of it and will like what they listened throughly.

 

R.

The idea of having choice is a stimulus.

The extra effort made to produce changes as a result of making choices is a experience of learning.

I was learning all the time, to the point I settled for a particular sonic that was easily able to be Wed.

Once that discovery was made, I could no longer care for what other alternatives to the end sonic may be able to be produced.

I have been contented to this day and not thought about change. 

A related issue with using air dielectric capacitors in phono stages would be drift as air heats up or humidity changes. Thus it would be difficult to maintain accurate RIAA. On the other hand I guess the pF values in RIAA would be relatively easy to construct.

Raul, no, I cannot say I ever critically evaluated WIMA capacitors, except to say they’re all over the 3160, and I do like the 3160. I’ve not had the urge to tinker with it in any way except for the attenuator upgrade, which you know about.

Should have added, "Wish others would try it." Not you, Raul.

@pindac 

Glad it's working for you. Nothing like an experiment to inform an opinion.

@terry9 Stated "But the results are ... worth it to me."

Exactly my assessment of the additional time and expense added to my commission built Phon', when Voicing to my liking was a part of the build stage.

After having been demo'd a variety of VC's on a Pre Amp that is quite enjoyed.

I was also left very impressed after a Demo' using a particular expensive VC.

For my own design for this amp, I have had two Bespoke Built Mono VC's of a similar design, but with tighter matching for each channel.

I am yet to use them, but a friend who has them, is using them Temporarily on their builds, using them with a selection of VC's, and really likes the influence. 

You are most welcome, Raul. I agree with all of that - air and vacuum caps are impractical for standard production and only good for a one-off by an utter maniac with more time than sense. But the results are ... worth it to me.

Dear @terry9  : Thank you. Unfortunatelly the fixed ones hasvery low pf capacitance and are NOS so we can't get it in future and along that in reality for different reasons needs a special circuit board to use it.  It's not a true viable " excellent " option for a phonolinepreamp and non-imaginableforcrossover speakers.

In the other side I read somethings about  that kind of capacitors:

 

" One disadvantage of using air as a dielectric in a capacitor is that it has a relatively low dielectric constant compared to other materials. This means that a larger distance between the plates is needed to achieve the same capacitance as a capacitor with a higher dielectric constant material. Additionally, air is not suitable for use in capacitors that require a high level of stability or precision."

that could means bigger dimensions that other caps.

" In summary, an air capacitor would not be a viable energy storage option because the flowing air would not retain a dielectric constant necessary for the capacitor to work properly. "

" 

An air capac is a capacitor that uses air as a dielectric, and this capacitor can be designed in fixed or variable capacitance form. The fixed capacitance type is not often used because there are different types of fixed capacitors with much better characteristics than it, so the variable capacitance form is more frequently used due to its simple construction.

Air capacitors are usually made of two sets of semicircular metal plates, which are separated by an air dielectric material. Of these metal plates, one set is permanent and the other is attached to a shaft that allows the operator to rotate the assembly to change the capacitance when needed. When the overlap between the two metal plates is large, the capacitance is higher. Thus, the highest capacitance condition is reached when the overlap between the two sets of metal plates is maximum, while the lowest capacitance condition is reached once there is no overlap. For better capacitance control, finer adjustment, and higher accuracy, a reduction gear mechanism is used.

In addition, the capacitance value of air capacitors is very small, ranging from 100pF-1nF, while the operating voltage range is from 10 to 1000V. The breakdown voltage of the dielectric is small, so the electrical breakdown inside the capacitor can change, resulting in poor operation of the air capacitor. "

 

So, for me at the endyour adviselooks as useless in practic audio way.

 

Btw, the  self by-passing Multicaps means higher developed inductance that's not good and maybe from therecomes its kind of coloration that's away from the neutral Wima/Vishay or Kemet ones. Only my opinion through first hand experiences.

 

Thank's again, I learned.

 

R.

 

Without going into referencing Parts being exchanged. 

My experiences had where Voicing Phonostages and Line Level Pre Amp's and even a Tonearm through Internal Wand Wire exchanges as a Signal Path has been that all Voicing methods used will add,

It is how much perceivable addition one is willing to accept as the goal of voicing. 

Again I have heard identical designs used in comparison, with only a few choice components in use changing the base build. 

When comparing for a short duration a change might be discovered that has increased attraction.

Allow a lesser liked model to have a extended play time, and the preferred model is not pined for. 

This is aldi the same with same models and differing VC's. 

Some VC's can pop with attraction. 

Today I look on it similar to CD and Vinyl. 

A short term comparison there are differences detected. Let either run on and neither not being used are pined for. 

Disclaimer: Many periods of comparison are not carried out with myself in a wooden chair. 

My findings might be accused of being compromised. 

 

 

@mijostyn I should have mentioned a possible x - intercept. What you wrote is true if everything is linear and the x - intercept is 0. That is, there is a noise floor.

Surplus Sales of Nebraska. Many values, all small. At least, that was years ago.

@lewm  Interesting experience of yours. I ended up using my teflon film and foil for component level power supply filters. Don't suppose you'll like to sell some of the RTX?

@lewm  : Do you tested Wima as coupling caps? and if yes: which model?

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : Please: can you share with me the link of your air dielectric source and models? here:

 

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

 

Appreciated, thank's in advance,

R.

I used to use the Multicap RTX caps for critical applications. (Those are the polystyrenes.) But in my listening opinion, the teflon capacitors that came along later are far better (REL or other). In fact, now I cannot bear the RTXs, and I have a bunch of them in many different values. I also found some 2uF/200V polystyrenes (so not applicable for RIAA or hi-pass filtering unless your filter is set at a high-ish frequency), made by PAS (Pacific Audio Supply), that are unsurpassed for output coupling capacitors. I originally bought 36 of them to use as a high pass filter in my Sound Lab speakers, and when I totally removed the high pass filter in the speakers, I ended up with a box full of the PAS which I then tried experimentally in output coupling and now love. Sadly, PAS is now defunct. I have several PAS polystyrene also in 0.22uF/600V; Ralph used to use them as internal coupling caps in his OTLs. They’re superb but fairly large and don’t fit everywhere. For low value capacitance below 0.1uF, I have found the Russian silver mica capacitors the most absolutely transparent. I use them in RIAA. They were or are cheap on eBay. I guess my point is that no one company or no one type of capacitor is "best" for all applications.  You have to experiment and listen.

@terry9 Unfortunately, it is flawed. Not only is the distortion amplified but so is the signal. The distortion remains the exact same percentage. 

"Can't be serious" because a phono signal is 1/100 the size of a line stage signal, and any distortion is therefore magnified 100 times before the crossover. That was my reasoning. Do you think that my reasoning is flawed?

@terry9 : Why can’t be serious? I’m refering that the same cap runs as the amplifier coupling capacitor and at the same time I’m taking advantage on that Levinson design and is used too as the high pass crossover for my speaker/subs.

So, the high pass filter is not an additional " nothing " in the speaker/sub audio signal,I just use that coupling cap for both jobs.

 

Btw, for years I used the Multicap polyestirene ones and still own in stck several samples and asafactI use it today in the high pass filter for the add-on back speaker tweeter that works from 7khz up. Btw, in my system applications main speaker crossovers and amplifiers input coupling caps the Multicaps were and are beated easily for theWima model I’m using and Kemet does the same. In my external hard wired speaker crossovers I’m using the Kemet for the woofers instead the Wima.

 

Now,all what I have to do is to make a self test at the input of the amplifiers and in the speaker tweeters waiting that the size of the air caps permits that I do it.

At both places is very easy to me detect be aware if the air cap can beats the Wima I’m " married ". I can’t make the test in the RIAA due that then we have to re-calibrates everything in that circuit to achieve our 0.012db RIAA deviation and this is to much work for us rigth now.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

I had much the same experience with caps - Wima was quite good, some of the boutique brands not. I settled on Multicap styrene caps as being the most neutral.

As for direct experience and experiment, I can help you there. I did experiments with a break-out box, then on alternate channels of my phono stage.

Since all the good caps use a dielectric with a dielectric constant in the 2 - 2.5 range, and vacuum and air are very close to 1.000, I wondered. I thought that maybe radio stations that used $10,000 caps knew something that I didn’t. Tried those dielectrics in the same circuit as my favoured Multicap and it was no contest: clearer, cleaner, and far smoother (ESL system powered by mono blocks with air bearing / Koetsu front end).

Costly, though. Very bulky. And a wee bit tricky to design for. But worth it, IMO.

PS high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA

You can’t be serious.

Dear @terry9 : Well, there are some really critical factors in the RIAA curve stage and depends on what the designer decided is the best overall quality performance level kind of design.

In our phonolinepreamp caps are critical as resistors too. Yes,almost all know that the best dielectric is the air and in a different place I experienced years ago with IC cables with air as dielectric and over the time were outperformed for " normal " dielectric cables, in reality never sounds better but just different.

Now and talking only on caps I have to say that everything the same probably you are rigth however a cap is more than dielectric and I’m not trying to diminish the dielectric importance down there.

I have deep first hand experiences with caps running in speaker crossover and electronics as the RIAA and at the input of my 20.6 Levinson monoblokcs that functions as coupling ( by Levinson design ) and at the same time as high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA.

I even started a cap issue thread that thanks to that I made " hundred " of discoveries that at the end let me know that I was wrong with my way of thinking that in those times and about caps were for the boutique caps levels as: Duelund, Mundorf, V-Caps, Clarity, Jantzen, Audyn, and the like. I used and tested all those names and using its top models as the Duelund silver or V-Cap teflon Cu.

No one in those both applications where I used can’t compete against Wima ( this was my conclusion. ) looking for true/real neutrality.

Wima does not uses Cu or Silver ow any other inmaginable cahrateristics as paper in oil or in wax and other aberrations as that but in the input of my 20.6 I was using a very expensive V-Cap Teflon Cu and Wima outperformed with out any single doubt and for afew dime$ ( no more than 5.00 vs over 300.00 )

Nothing can’t beats a good electronics design using the rigth model Wima cap that’s way humble cap at any standard but we have to remember that Wima is the Standard in the whole Industry not only audio.

For me it’s more important the design of the cap and the quality level excution of that design and in these Wima is way superior no matters what, in some models Kemet is very near to along Vishay.

You can look to almost any good electronics design and all of them use Wima, yes the red/blue ones different models. Boutique caps are MKTG making money with each one ignorance levels ( including manufacturers. ). I paid thousand of money for those caps ( I have to say: heavy colored caps, each one in different ways but down there just does not exist neutrality. ) and yes it was a very high price paid it but finally I learned and here there is no true going back.

In the audio world happens things that many times maybe we don’t have a scientific response due to its complexity of to many invloved parameters, the caps is an example but next an example of a truly old cartridge wher even its output pin connectors are not gold plated but is a true challenge for any today top cartridge. I made a review of and several gentlemans testify different sessions what I said in the thread:

 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

So, it’s dificult for me to confirm the air dielectric in caps other that my experiences with the IC cables. Wima knows for sure what it’s doing. Yes, almost no one likes Wima in the analog/electronics audio signal path because has not any coloration you can detect: this is why.

 

R.

I suspect that the biggest single factor in an RIAA stage is the capacitor dielectric. Once you have heard air gap or vacuum, there's no going back. IMO.

Btw and about those DartZeel cartridges: even that what @mikelavigne  listened in that show he posted that sounds " very very good " and he listened through an analog rig similar to one of the 3-4 he owns and his Dartzeel electronics. This for me says a " lot " and I could think that the finished cartridge is even better.

The issue is how good is the cartridge in a non Dartzeel electronics.

 

It's weird that in the DartZeel web-site does not appears the cartridges.

 

R.

 

R.

 

I have been impressed in a way that is difficult to describe as a result of my experiencing a Carefully Thought Out Approach to producing a Low Eddy Signal Path in use on the Circuit between Cartridge to Power Amp.

I do know the Low Eddy Approach is now in use on the Power Amp connections as well.

This is something at present that is the highest of priorities to attempt to get right when I rebuild my system, which might prove to be the most cost effective betterment I have achieved in a very long time.

My search to Compliment the Low Eddy experience extended to discovering if devices used were specifically produced from Scratch to improve on the Management of a Low Eddy Signal. My interest being I would attempt to introduce these items as a curiosity to see where furthering the benefits might be realised.

My Search lead me to a discovery that is at present Free and unfortunately at resent I am not able to experience the part as I would like, which leaves the experience to be postponed.

The ECC System will have to wait for my own purposes.

Hopefully a Forum Member will Jump at the chance to experience for Free a affordable Cart' that has build standards and material selection not usually adopted that should be off appeal.

The Link will introduce Forum Members to a option for a Cart' that is very very realistic.

I have not heard this Cart' in use, so can't make a statement with conviction.

I will suggest, by using such a Cart' as the 'LS 10MkII' with a Phon' like a Paradise, or a Design like one produced by Salas.

For not too much monies there is plenty of memorable experiences to be had.

There is also a good Possibility a Phon' will be discovered that is not wanted to be exchanged.

Obviously my references to a Phon' of a certain type, are met with something that resembles the Viv Tonearm debacle. Look how many were convinced their usage was correct and the converts that manifested as the futile discussions kept on spieling out. 

My own introducing the Le Son Cart' Brand to this thread will most likely be met with Similar Viv Arm duplicated moments.

I really don't care, the options put out, are obtainable and reachable by many who are merely attempting to learn how to refine their listening to their Album collection.

My advise is silly monies are not a requirement to listen to an Album. 

Dear friends: DartZeel showwed in June-2023 a prototype ( @mlavigne  was there. ) and from the information in this link seems that the cartridge price includes a phono stage but I can’t be sure today:

 

DartZeel Phono Cartridge (audioshark.org)

 

R.

Dear @robert53  : Thank's for the new 2024 cartridge link..

Obviously " more of the same "  due that  in that regards nothing really can chage totally.

The Dartzeel cartridge looks as a heavy $$$ one and the information about says nothing special:

 

Model: FS 00 Founder Series

 

• Body ULH gilded with gold leaf
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel ultimate proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.066 mV
• Output impedance 2 ohms
• Coils – one single layer pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 10 Hz – 100 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 1.5 µs
• Channel separation > 30 dB

 

Dartzeel has other new cartridges:

 

FS01 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 53’535.35

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.077 mV
• Output impedance 4 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 15 Hz – 25 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

and the FS02 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 42’424.24

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Ruby
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.088 mV
• Output impedance 5 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 20 Hz – 22 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2.5 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

What all these cartridges shares is its very low output that the DartZeel phonolinepreamp can handled with out problem due that its active high gain stage goes at over 83db of amplification.

 

Well, we have to wait for owners opinion in its quality level performance and how compares against the top today cartridges. We will see.

 

R.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this reviewer is using a Wooden Chair for their reviews.

There is a similarity to a certain thought pattern where Large Sums of Monies parted with ensures the best is to be had.

  

Dear @mijostyn : Good question that does no " talks " about cartridge inconsistences but phono stages with different design quality levels.

My experiences with the CH confirmed that statement because the same cartridge Etna Lambda SL runs in current and voltage design with no differences in signal to noise ratio and this against your unit speaks that the voltage CH design is really good because there is no reasons for a current design ( everything the same, specially the design quality level/knowledge down there. ) with same cartridge been superior to a voltage design.

Now, it’s way more easy to design a current mode phono stage that a voltage mode one and not all designers have the same knowledge level for both kind of designs but at the end there is no advatage between current vs voltage.

Other that CH I can’t remember other top top phono manufacturer using current design. I think that CH did it as marketing as a way to earn more money with out a true justification for the customers as is too the additional to RIAA different eq. curves and even the Wizard but it’s Ok because that’s the way for CH to offer its products to the market and always exist customers in that market for it as for your unit too.

 

" the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. "

 

Well, that is only a very personal statement that has a meaning only for you ( you are married with with out really knowing why. ) and that can’t be justified in anyway for cartridge owners that what the only thing we are looking for is the maximum MUSIC enjoyment where a good voltage design can and did it for years. Why have I to pay an additional money for that other option that in reality can’t outperforms the voltage one?

Please ask to Boulder, Gryphon, Dartzeel, FM Acoustics, Moons, and the like. Btw, Dartzeel designer says about :

 

 

" A lot has been written about phono amplifiers with a current source or voltage source… Many contemporary current source phono preamps claim that they are the something mostly unique and much more “modern”. Delétraz begs to differ. And with a reason…

The NHB-18NS uses a truly low impedance voltage source input so that the cartridge can express itself rather than being imprinted by the electronics signature of the phono stage.

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. All the contrary!

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. The CTH-8550 from 12 years ago already used a current source phono stage because it was easier to design it for a given (high) performance level. From Delétraz’s point of view, the revival of current sources and the assertion of anything new is not quite up to beat…"

 

R.