The Hana SL will work fine into that phono stage. You don't list the gain. I assume it is around 65db. That is a typical figure for phono stages for lomc cartridges.
Matching the cartridge to the phono stage
Hey Everyone, I am new to this so please be gentle :)
I am in the process of buying an amp that has the phono stage in it with the following specs with 3 options for the cartridge type MM/MC-Low/MC-High:
Moving Magnet: 2.5mV / 47kΩ
Moving Coil:
MC-High-Output: 0.3mV / 100Ω
MC-Low--Output: 0.1mV / 40Ω
LINE 180 mV / 47 kΩ
Now I am thinking of buying the Hana SL cartridge with the following specs:
Hana SL specifications:
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Output Level @ 1kHz: 0.5mV
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Output Balance @ 1kHz: Less Than 1.5dB
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Impedance @ 1 kHz: 30 Ohms
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Suggested Load: 400 Ohms
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Cartridge Weight: 5 Grams
The preamp MC-Low says: MC-Low--Output: 0.1mV / 40Ω
The Hana SL cartridge: Output Level @ 1kHz: 0.5mV, Impedance @ 1 kHz: 30 Ohms and Suggested Load: 400 Ohms.
How do these values match ? As far as I can see I don't have the same voltage 0.5mv on the cartridge and 0.3mv on the phono preamp. I also see that 40ohm vs 30ohm. The 400ohms figure is only mentioned on the cartridge.
Can this cartridge be used successfully with this phono stage ?
Do I need to match these numbers ? Can someone help explain this whole thing to me.
Thanks!
0.3mV and 0.5mV are close enough that there will be just a tiny movement of the volume control between them, so go ahead and set the phono stage to the 0.3mV input. The loading of 100Ω will do fine, but if you really want to experiment when you have got used to the sound of 100Ω load, you can always slip a resistor in series with the cable to play around with it. You probably know that resistive loading of MC cartridges is used to damp a peak in their response in high frequencies. The higher the resistive load, the less this peak is damped. So if you think you aren't getting enough top end, you might try a higher load, but to be honest, you'd need a better ear than mine to tell the difference. Somebody will pop up to insist you must use a transformer and the MM input. I would save such experiments for much later in your career! |
Thanks guys. Interesting that setting on the preamp is MC High output but you are recommending to use it for this cartridge. Btw the phono stage is Luxman L-509Z (integrated amp). I'm in the process of purchasing some of this stuff still but before I do I wanted to figure out how to match things together. @jasonbourne71 this is what I found about the gain: PHONO (MM): 87 dB or more, PHONO (MC-H):: 70 dB or more, PHONO (MC-L):: 62 dB or more @dogberry I have no idea about resistive loading. Just trying to setup my first turntable. Very new to this :) |
@ajones82 Welcome to being a New to Vinyl user. There are lots of little nooks and crannies of formulas lurking, when it comes to a Vinyl Source and the Trilogy of Ancillaries. What are the other ancillaries you are planning to use the Cart' with to make up the Trilogy, i.e, Turntable >Tonearm.
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Thanks @pindac . I'm thinking of Rega Planar 6 with its standard tonearm with the Hana SL cart. |
That is not a very user-friendly spec sheet. This appears to be a full function integrated amplifier and so I’m assuming these mV numbers are sensitivity -- i.e. the required signal level to elicit full amplifier output with the volume control at MAX. If we work backwards from the phono sensitivity and the stated line stage sensitivity, we can arrive at the gain levels:
For a 0.5mV cartridge, 60dB is ideal so typically you could go to either 55dB or 65dB. However, the Hana’s 30 ohm DC coil impedance is not a good match for the 40 ohm load listed at the 0.1mV / 65dB setting. Therefore, I would use 0.3mV / 55dB, however even THAT is not ideal, as 100 ohms load is still low for a 30 ohm coil. It will work, it might even sound very good, but you will be throwing away 2.27dB of signal (meaning your effective gain is only 52.73 dB at this setting). Quite frankly their fixed loading selections for MC present a pretty tough load. The most common "rule of thumb" is that you want a phono stage load impedance which is greater than 10x the cartridge’s coil ohms, but I have gone as low as 6x on occasion. Below that, and you will start to face problems very quickly due to signal losses. 30 ohm coils into 100 ohms load is only 3x :( This phono stage is probably not optimal for the Hana SL, without internal modification - maybe you can change the load resistor? Most MC cartridges would do fine on this amp. The Hana SL is atypical because its coil impedance of 30 ohms is very high for its output level of 0.5mV. You will typically see 0.5mV cartridges with coils that are 5 - 15 ohms. The Hana ML, at 0.4mV and 7 ohms coils, would be a much better match here. |
Hi @mulveling wow...thanks for such a descriptive explanation. Do you have any suggestions of MC cartridges that sound great kinda like Hana SL ( I actually chose it by recommendation and also google research). I have not opened the cartridge so I can always return and get something else. It just had such great reviews that I thought that I'm definitely getting this one.
But then I had to upgrade my amplification for my Dynaudio speakers and therefore I ended up deciding on the Luxman. So Luxman is what I will be getting but everything else I can adjust. I don't even have a turntable yet but Rega Planar 6 with its standard tonearm is my thought so far. Would be interesting to understand what matches exactly to my phono stage at the level and price as the Hana SL possibly. Thanks!
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Some will say to get the cartridge you want and buy the right phono stage for that, even if it means bypassing the phono stage in your new amp. Others will say mod your new amp with the right resistor to load your cartridge optimally. But really, there’s a million ways to skin the cat. in the end your ears & experiences will trump any number of reviews and posts on the internet :) The good news is I’ve purchased many MC cartridges in 15 years and haven’t encountered one yet that doesn’t sound at least very good. I haven’t heard Hanas but I’m fairly sure they’re quite good as advertised. Off the top of my head, if I were matching an MC cartridge to this phono stage, I know that the Ortofon Quintet and Cadenza lines all have 5 ohm coils with strong output levels (0.3 - 0.45mV) that would match well here. I particularly like the Cadenza Red and Bronze (they also have slightly higher outputs levels which is nice). Those models have a fun, musical sound that’s hard to stop listening to. Koetsus have 5 ohm coils and 0.4mV outputs and sound wonderful, but are expensive and on the very warm side of the spectrum! My Sonic Labs have extremely low coil impedances and high output levels, but are also quite expensive. Alternatively you could also use the 47K MM input on your amp with a SUT (step-up transformer) OR an MC head-amp (e.g. Hagerman Piccolo - a JFET based head-amp) that would match better to the Hanas. The Hagerman Piccolo is under like 300 bucks and paired with the 47K MM input on your amp it would perfectly match virtually any MC, including the Hanas. Quite frankly that might be a good compromise. I have 2 of the older Piccolos and can verify the sonics are very good and functionality as advertised. Current version looks like a good deal. Like I said, lots of ways to skin the cat... |
My guess is that the high gain inputs feed a SUT with a choice of two levels of voltage gain. That would account for the two different load resistance parameters at the two different levels of gain. You can’t fix that unless you change the 47K ohm resistor that serves as a load for the MM inputs. That certainly can be done but first you’d want to know the turns ratios of the SUT. I’m guessing the 0.3 mV input sees a 1:20 turns ratio. That would give an input resistance of about 100 ohms with the standard 47K ohm load on the secondaries. About a 1:30 turns ratio on the highest gain inputs would yield about a 40 ohm net load into that same 47K resistance. I agree that the maker has done a poor job of explaining the circuit. Change the fixed 47K load resistance to 100K ohms, and you could double the respective loads via the MC inputs Most MM and high output MI cartridges work fine into 100K, but the resulting MC input loads are still not quite optimal for the Hana. Pick an LOMC cartridge with a much lower internal resistance than the Hana, for better matching to this unit. |
The Hana SL is a great cart — especially for the cost - I use the mono version as my daily driver. I’ve used it in a few configurations. When the resistance is pinched, it tends to smooth out more than it already is. I think if you’re starting out, just understand you don’t need to get too hung up on the numbers. They are a guideline and most systems have too much gain anyway. Regarding loading, once you get about 3x the internal resistance away from the input, which you at with 100ohms, the changes are subtle, more about preference and less about right or wrong. In my option, when this cart is pinched, it will sound more like the reviews say it sounds. So if you like the reviews, I’d go for it. The ML is a different animal - need to go by the book with that one A quick google search - Analog Planet said this about the SL, which I’d agree with: The measured response differences between 100 ohms and 400 ohms was not significant but what was consistent throughout was a slight recess in frequency response in the upper midrange over a wide expanse of frequencies. And that is clearly audible. It’s what gives the SL such a pleasingly relaxed yet detailed sonic signature. Like I said - more of the same. |
As the owner of a Rega Planar 6 I offer a piece of advice that is slightly off topic. The tonearm is not adjustable for vertical tracking angle (VTA) unless you use spacers (washers), which Rega makes and which must be installed beneath the tonearm. The tonearm is designed for Rega cartridges, for which no spacer is needed. The Rega Ania or Ania Pro MC cartridges are factory installed as options. Both have 0.35 mV output and 10 ohm output impedance. Rega recommends a 100 ohm impedance setting on the phono stage. The Luxman’s setting for 0.3 mV should work, but 55 dBA of gain is low for a 0.3 mV output cartridge. You will likely find it necessary to turn up the volume more or you can try the High setting for 0.1 mV cartridges. FYI, Rega’s most economical phono stage for MC cartridges offers gain settings of 63.5 and 69.5 dBA. A Rega dealer should be able to help you find a cartridge that will work well with the Luxman unit and can install it and any needed spacers. I believe the Hana will also will require at least one spacer. |
The Hana SL has been on my table for the past two years, running into a Parasound JC3 Jr. (which allows me to adjust MC load using a variable pot that runs from 50-550 ohms). I can say that the differences in load between 100-400 are subtle, but there is a more pronounced treble "edge" and a more brittle sound on certain vinyl when running below 300 ohms. This is likely due to a drop out of the upper mids below that 300 ohm load. As for gain, I can choose 50db or 60db of gain, and either 55 or 65db on your amp would work fine with the Hana. YMMV, of course, and the Luxman phono circuit may handle the SL just fine. One other option if you are really hesitant is to return the Hana SL for the SH. It's specs are a much better match for your integrated. |
The loading has nothing to do with the cartridge sounding different and everything to do with the phono section making less distortion. Also, a lower resistance might load the cartridge so much that the cantilever becomes so stiff it might have difficulty responding to higher frequencies. The reason this is so has to do with the inductance of the cartridge. Its quite low! In fact its so low that if you pass a 10KHz squarewave through it (put the cartridge in series with the squarewave) you'll see on an oscilloscope that the output looks just like the input- no rolloff at all! So the change in tonality is something else. There are two things to affect that. One is that the inductance is in parallel with the tonearm cable and its capacitance. That sets up an electrical resonance that is probably at 1 or 2MHz. That resonant peak is likely about 25dB (based on the Q of the inductance of the cartridge); when energized by the cartridge tracking an LP the resulting RFI can easily overload many phono sections, resulting in distortion which is perceived as brightness. The loading resistor detunes the resonance. Brightness is gone. But a 100 Ohm loading resistor is going to force the cartridge to do 2 orders of magnitude more work as opposed to the stock industry standard of 47KOhms. So the cantilever will be stiffer just as an alternator shaft gets harder to turn when its loaded. A cartridge is a kind of alternator. The decreased compliance can result in less high frequency energy and may affect how the cartridge tracks in the tonearm. If the preamp is designed to deal with the RFI generated, you'll find that the loading resistor makes far less difference! When the phono section has a loading resistor switch, its a pretty good sign that the designer did not take the implication of an inductance in parallel with a capacitance (electronics 101, 1st week) into account.
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To be fair, don't you think that a load resistance switch is sometimes a response to the marketplace which tends to place a high value on fiddling with load resistance, because most audiophiles, who are also potential buyers, do not understand the problem as you state it? Whew! That was a long question. Thanks. |
Thanks for the detailed view of the interaction between cart and phono pre, very illuminating. I appreciate you sharing the knowledge. As for your last point about how the preamp design deals with the RFI, isn't some level of variability in load resistance needed? The market for MC carts presents a lot of options, all of which have very different specs. Or am I not understanding your point? |
So much cool information here, I learned a ton. Thanks everyone. I think what I'm going to do is find a cartridge that fits my phono stage in the Luxman. I saw some people mention a match of Dynavector cartiridges, Benz, soundsmith. Some of them are expensive and I'm looking to find one for under 1K that sounds awesome. Maybe even Hana SH which matches better to the Luxman. I'm not going to do any modifications to the amp for sure, if I decide to do that then I'll just buy a separate phono stage instead. |
What about Fixed Coil Carts ? Do you guys have experience with those versus Moving Coil ?
https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/fixed-coil-vs-moving-coil-why-make-jump-different-technology |
You mentioned Benz and Soundsmith. Many Benz LOMC cartridges have high-ish internal resistance, like the Hana SL (33 ohms). So those are just as difficult to match with your phono stage as is the SL. Soundsmith make some "Low Output Moving Iron" cartridges. Those also would not be an ideal match for your phono stage, even though their internal resistance is typically only 10 ohms (see below). If you must have a LOMC cartridge, stick with those that have a low-ish internal resistance. Like less than 12 ohms, for example, AND a low inductance (that's why the Soundsmith LOMI cartridges need an input impedance of greater than 100 ohms; their inductance is much much higher than that of a typical LOMC.) |
The short answer is 'no'. People use the loading as a tone control with many preamps, on account of without it the preamp sounds bright. This is usually due to distortion as I mentioned prior. Get rid of the RFI and the distortion goes away. So if your phono section is properly designed, you'll find the loading makes little difference. That remaining difference will be because the cantilever is less supple tracing the groove when the cartridge is loaded. The specs the cartridge manufacturer posts about compliance are usually when the cartridge is driving a 47KOhm load, not 100 Ohms or the like. Put another way, if the phono section is properly designed its plug and play. |
Specifically, these Benz models are: Gullwing, Ruby, and LPS. They share a ruby plate armature which significantly lowers output level relative to any given coil arrangement. They're a tough match to a SUT and OP's phono stage. Typical for these is 0.35V @ 40 ohms or 0.7mV @ 80 ohms. The lower Benz lines use an iron cross armature that is much more efficient. These work great with the right SUT, and should also be workable with OP's phono. The models include: Ace, Gilder, Wood, Zebrawood, Reference, Ebony. Typical for these models is 0.4mV @ 12 ohms or 0.26mV @ 5 ohms. |
I appreciate all the excellent answers but the guy is new to this. A suggestion for an easy solution would be the right way one might think. How about a MM cartridge and his phono stage is all good. Ortofon MC carts are a good answer as well. Not sure about the Rega though. Some cartridges need spacers. What beginner wants to deal with that? |
I keep it simple...I use both a Denon 103 and a Hana el. These cartridges are pretty close as far as what loading they require or is recommended (400 ohms). I use a USA made Jensen SUT into my tubed Tavish phono's MM section. Sounds Dann good to me. If you look on Jensen's website, they designed their SUT in and around the usage of the Denon 103. They have done the thinking for me...less stress and good sound. |
How about Rega Ania MC ? that way no spacers are needed I think and reviews are pretty good (I should really audition it).
These are the specs: TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS Tracking Pressure 1.75 - 2.00 g Input Load Impedance 100 Ω Output Impedance 10 Ω Nominal output voltage 350 μV Channel Balance ≥ 20 μV Separation ≥ -29 dB
LOAD SETTINGS FOR Ania Cartridge: Phono settings: Impedance 100 Ω Capacitance 1000 pF Gain Setting High (‘On’ position for Rega phono stages)
These are my phono stage specs again (btw what does IHF-A correction mean in the specs below? Does it mean it will adjust to that voltage if required automatically?):
Moving Magnet: 2.5mV / 47kΩ
Moving Coil: MC-High-Output: 0.3mV / 100Ω MC-Low--Output: 0.1mV / 40Ω
LINE 180 mV / 47 kΩ
S/N ratio:
PHONO (MM) : 91 dB or more (IHF-A correction, 5 mV input) PHONO (MC) : 75 dB or more (IHF-A correction, 0.5 mV input)
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I was like you a couple of years ago. Wanted to get into vinyl again but had no idea. Back in the day I just put a record on and dropped the needle! Never knew there was so much to learn. Still don't know much about the specs, numbers, etc. but learning. I picked up a mint used Rega Planar 6 and purchased a new Rega Exact cart. Setup was super easy. No spacers needed with the Rega cart. It sounds great with any phono stage I've used. Currently a Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2+ with gain set at 40dB and input loading at 47k. Considering trying an Ania mc cart in the future but no rush. It's great that you are doing the research - kudos. But, you might want to start simple with a Rega cart for the Rega TT. Pretty much plug and play. |
@ajones82 those last numbers are the signal to noise ratio relative to a reference input level (the “typical” MM and MC cartridge output levels), as calculated by the IHF A weighting standard. The A weighting heavily de-emphasizes bass (power supply ripple) and treble frequencies. Given that, the numbers look OK but perhaps not stellar. It has nothing to do with the phono stage altering signal or adjusting to cartridge level. |
@ajones82 One of the issues with the Rega arms is an adjustment called VTA is tricky or impossible to set, at least the ones I've seen. But if you use a Rega cartridge its spot on. IMO if you have a Rega arm a Rega cartridge is your best bet. If you want to do better you likely will want to move to a different machine. |
@atmasphere Hi, yeah I heard about that, spacers needed if adjusting VTA, right ? I was also considering Clearaudio Concept but when I heard them side by side with the same Hana SL cartridge I liked Rega much better. It sounded more dynamic, better bass, quicker. But Clearaudio tonearms have adjustable VTA, hence decided on the Rega. Any other table suggestions with adjustable VTA and really good ones ? |
@ajones82 The Technics SL1200G has a pretty decent arm and the 'table is one of the better ones made at any price. Its weak spot it its platter pad, easily replaced. |
It’s the tonearm, not the TT, that determines VTA adjustment. Nearly all tonearms apparently other than Rega tonearms, permit VTA adjustment one way or another without resorting to shims. Preferably you might want to seek a tonearm that affords easy VTA adjustment via a threaded tower, sometimes built into the vertical pillar, or sometimes along side of that pillar, that raises or lowers the pivot and which can be fixed in position once proper VTA is achieved. |
This doesn't help the OP, but I use the Hana SL with a Pass Labs XOno. Hana recommends >400 Ohms, but Wayne Colburn, the designer of XOno, claims that, due to the design, listeners should start at 100 ohms and work down. The design features dozens of values below 100 ohms, and only a few choices above. 400 ohms sounded harsh in the violins with the SL, and 80 ohms sounded rolled off, but really "interesting." I settled on 122 ohms, but I still feel something is not right. Mulveling, I think you might be right about the weird internal impedance of the SL, at least in the case of the XOno. The Hana ML has a more conventional profile, and I am tempted to try that next, which would allow me to spelunk deeper into the impedance range of the XOno to see if it makes a difference. At least there is a way better choice of impedance levels. Don't get me wrong, I love my Hana, which is why I am considering moving up. Most phono pre designers seem to build around 100 ohms, but the SL is an outlier at being both low-output MC and recommending >400 ohms. Interesting.
Paul
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The SL is an outlier because of its high internal impedance relative to other LOMC cartridges. Plain and simple. The rule of thumb in matching audio components is you want the input impedance of the driven or downstream device to be at least 10 times higher than the output impedance of the driving or upstream device. Where cartridges and phono stages are concerned, that rule is often bent a little but as the ratio of the two impedances falls below 10, more and progressively more of the signal voltage output is lost to ground. That’s often tolerable but also there is a gradual high frequency roll off. So, the SL has internal Z of 33 ohms and Hana recommends phono input Z of >400. Makes sense. You might also read Atmasphere’s posts where he points out that resistance loading is for the phono stage and that for a well designed phono, the standard 47K load ought to work fine. |
@ajones82 My vote is to keep your Hana and listen to it.....I bet it will work just fine on the MC low setting and you will be happy. In my experience I have only seen the gain of a phono section. My phono stage has 74db in high setting and I have a a 0.48mV cartridge that pairs quite nicely. Your Hana is 0.5mV which I believe is a very conservative output for a MC low setting. There are many that have 0.2-0.3mV which I have not ever tried. Trying to start over with your cartridge research, return yours and buy another is no fun. Also, I have had Rega: 80s Planar 2, RP6, RP8 and P10 now. All the Rega cartridges were too bright for me(Exact 2, Apheta 3 & Aphelion 2). I have had the Goldring Eroica LX, Benz Micro Wood SM & now the Kiseki Purpleheart that I love! I tried the Soundsmith Sussuro MkII that didn't work(long story) and a Lyra Kleos. I bought the spacers that slide in from the top with makes any VTA adjustment super easy. I haven't found much need for adjustment but the spacers are cheap so go ahead and get them and see if you can tell a difference. Let us know what you do and enjoy! That Luxman looks awesome...should provide years and years of enjoyment. |
@paulburnett There's actually a standard for phono inputs, which is 47K. A cartridge designer might recommend a 100 Ohm load or the like because he has no way of knowing what preamp its going to drive. So he recommends a 'worst case' scenario. |
Hi @lewm "That’s often tolerable but also there is a gradual high frequency roll off." The statement quoted above will be true if the cartridge is an MM or MI with hundreds of mH inductance. In contrast, MC cartridges generally have far less inductance (by a few decimal places), and therefore will not behave as claimed. For example, if the frequency response of a Denon DL-103R (14Ω coils) is measured when the load is 47kΩ, then 47Ω (a thousand times less), the two curves will track each other to within a fraction of a decibel (at the most 0.5dB at 20kHz). Keep in mind that a low-inductance MC cartridge is a terribly inefficient passive generator that is mechanically driven by the LP groove. As a result, its behavior changes hardly at all when the electrical load is altered. As a handful of engineers (including Ralph and myself) have been saying for many years, the sonic differences perceived by many audiophiles is caused not by differences in the behavior of the MC cartridge as its electrical load is altered, but rather distortion in the phono stage that is triggered by the electrical reactance / ultrasonic resonance occurring between the inductance of the cartridge coils vs. the capacitance of the tonearm internal wiring, tonearm output cable, and input circuitry of the phono stage. If a phono stage designed to be insensitive to ultrasonic or low radio-frequency energy, the tonal balance will change very little when the input load is altered, with the side benefit of reduced LP surface noise (much of which occurs within a frequency range that overlaps with the ultrasonic resonances occurring between the inductance of the cartridge and the various capacitances present between the cartridge and the amplification circuitry of the phono stage). |
I was meaning to speak in general terms of matching impedances between any two components but thanks for correcting me as regards an LOMC cartridge. I am very aware of the vast differences in inductance among the 3 major types of cartridge but didn’t figure that in. However, many do report that the sound got dull or closed in when they reduced the load drastically below the 10X rule of thumb, say down to 2 or 3X, and I’ve always attributed that observation to an effect of the impedance match. Not meaning to argue the point as your expertise far exceeds mine. |
@jcarr +1 |
The basis for my reasoning is as follows: First, we can group LOMC cartridges as having similar very low inductance in the 1 to 50 microHenry range. Typically more like about 10 uH for a very low output MC. So I would imagine that differences in inductance factor out, and no one is talking about using a less than 47K ohm load with an MM or MI type (and parenthetically, I agree with you and Ralph; I use 47K with LOMCs.) Second, the effect to which I refer would have to do with parallel capacitance not inductance. Your quoted data re the DL103R (off by 0.5db at 20kHz) shows that the effect I cited is small, but do we know what were the capacitance values in that test? The idea is that impedance due to parallel capacitance will change from a high value to a lower value as frequency increases from 20Hz to 20kHz but even at 20kHz paralllel capacitance is not the dominant source of impedance (typically in the pF range). As impedance due to capacitance goes down with increasing f, then proportionate to impedance at 20Hz, net impedance goes down at 20kHz, shunting slightly more of the signal voltage to ground. Thus, compared to signal voltage at 20Hz, signal voltage at 20kHz would be reduced. Hence the potential for HF roll-off if cartridge internal R and phono stage input Z are mismatched to begin with. |
Dear @jcarr : II need your help ( non audio. ) please contact me :
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |