I keep looking at Home Goods for the right size solid wood cutting boards to put under my speakers to show up. Some are solid maple. Haven't found a matched pair yet. Cost there is ~ $40 each, sans audiophile mark-ups. |
Well, I know I'm in the wrong business. Maple at those prices are robbery.
I have noticed the crazy prices on most all of the Mapleshade stuff and the wild claims. But, if one person hears a difference then Mapleshade can truthfully say their stuff works. Even if 10 hear no difference. Those claims are what makes our hobby a joke to many possible listeners. |
Photonman is that the paver material? |
Chill, shill. Minus K and Vibraplane kick Symposium's black cat's rear end. |
Try Symposium for some real improvement!! |
Tinkerer that I am, I finally settled on using the small, dime sized discs under the spikes on top of the maple. The mids are still wonderfully fleshed out and the highs have that finer leading edge and trailing off that without the discs seemed to be a a bit diminished. I thought I was hearing things but the final configuration was consistent with all the music I tried.
Well worth the experimentation.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I used them under my monitors and they do give the speakers a good sound, albeit a maple coloring. The sound was much better than sitting on the tile floors.
the mapleshade stuff is swamp maple I think which accounts for all that black striations.
I now use a "space age polymer" called TerraStone under my towers. |
Sound terrible in my house, thin wool rug over spruce. |
I concur about using the Maple Platforms coupled with brass footers. I'm using Mapleshade Platforms with brass heavyfoots countersunk into the maple platforms so as to not raise my speakers any higher. My CM-7's sit on Brass Heavyfoots on top of the maple platforms. The setup is actually quite good looking to boot.
The sound improvement was not subtile. I used a Mapleshade custom sized, solid brass weight, with a hole drilled thru as a spacer on the front heavyfoot's to tilt the speakers enough to "time-align" the drivers. It's a real pain to do the setup properly, moving speakers around the carpet before spiking them to the subfloor, getting the tilt correct, etc. BUT....there is no denying it transformed a pair of modestly priced speakers into real gems. The focus, imaging and that elusive 3D effect I love belies the pricepoint of these speakers since I did this setup. I'm SOLD!!! Money well spent.
That said, the results might vary with the quality of your speakers. If you're using really high end speakers that are built like bank vaults, this tweek might not be so dramatic. I can only speak for my results with modest speakers. |
I finally got around to putting some maple cutting boards (John Boos) under my Tonian TL-D1s and can't for the life of me figure out why I didn't do it sooner.
Italian flagstone was too harsh, bamboo too dulling. Putting metal discs under the spikes relieved some of the dulling effect and brought back the leading edges of the highs but the maple without the discs has the best of all worlds.
I'd like to thank whoever it is who posted on another thread that he put the flagstone under the maple with the speaker spiked to the maple as it's the best combo I've heard yet on my carpeted floor.
This is the most natural and balanced sound I've heard and thank everyone here for your input. I know it doesn't work for everyone since so many variables are at stake but in my case, it's just perfect.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Note what you are doing when the maple platform is flat on carpet. You are tending to decouple; which is what I have come to prefer. Micro-detail is better, as is the liveliness. |
Actually, I have tried everything under the sun. If you get good results with a maple board under a component you will get even better results by supporting the maple board with hard ceramic, brass or aluminum cones. Furthermore, results can be improved even further by constructing two layers of maple boards and cones. |
I couldn't afford Mapleshade blocks at the time so I got Myrtlewood plinths from Battlerock Studios. I placed them underneath my KEF 104/2 speakers and got great results. They are a little over 2" thick. The Myrtlewood plinths along with brass footers really helped with the vibration issues I was having with just the KEFs on my floor. I saw give Myrtlewood a shot. |
I tend to agree. Not that I've tried everything else under the sun. Or are about to. |
Maple is the right stuff for putting under audio. Thats all there is to say about it. |
A couple of weeks ago the Mapleshade unfinished 2 inch boards I ordered arrived and I simply have the Thiel 2.4s placed atop them without any footers through the thin pile carpeting underneath on a suspended floor. WOW, what an improvement in focus, detail and depth of stage. Here's my conclusion: I think maple happens to have the correct resonance, impedance and absorptive properties that allow phase cancelling information to be absorbed while not absorbing in phase musical information. I think it also performs this "filtering" fairly evenly over the audible range. There is a reason why it has long been used to make musical instruments. Would other tone woods work as well or better? Perhaps, but I know that this made a noticeable improvement and my audio buds all agree. |
Hard to explain, but true: I have Merlin Master VSM's. For two years they have been spiked to the concrete floor under wall-to-wall medium pile carpeting. I've always felt that there was some undesirable deadening of the low-to-mid bass going on. Tried various room treatments. 2' x 4' x 4" bass absorbers angled about a foot behind the speakers did help. But still something was not quite right.
The other day I decided to buck conventional wisdom. I had an intuition to place 1/2" maple shelves from an old Lovan rack I had under the speakers so that they are just sitting freely on the carpeting and the speakers are spiked directly into them. HUGE improvement in bass and no apparent disturbance in any of the other factors such as sound staging, or higher frequencies. In fact, I would say that everything just sounds better. I don't understand the science behind it, but I'd guess that coupling the speakers directly to the concrete floor had the same effect as over-damping a room or the inside of a speaker cabinet. Just goes to show that in this hobby it's good to experiment. And if you're lucky, the best solution is also the free solution. |
I use maple boards (2" to 4")under my speakers and all my audio equipment. I first went to a lumber yard so as not to spend as much. I was pleasantly supprised. I have a concrete floor under thick carpet and use brass spikes between the floor and the maple boards. On flat surfaces ,I use isolation blocks (not SQ or mapleshade. I only changed to this mounting system and it has transformed my system more than any prior purchase.
This was an incredible upgrade. Greater than any equipment added in the past. I have been amazed by the results. |
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The customized screw-in brass footers have been great for my Dali MS4 and now MS5. I use lots of their boards and cones, always to positive effect. |
Back again ...
Using the maple platforms under my speakers has transformed the bass response. There is no way I would ever return to the speakers just spiked through the carpet again.
Just as an aside ... Audiogon, please return the font to that previously used before the change. Thanks. |
Bradluke, I think you are right on this topic. The wood is dense, heavy and essentially inert. When you connect your gear via pointed cones into/onto the wood, it stablizes the equipment, thereby dampening whatever vibration the gear may be experiencing. With tubed gear, in my case, a preamp with microphonic prone, 60+ year old 6SN7s, holding it still, is important. Some people may call this "draining" vibration. I grant you that poetic license should not be a license to steal, in the way we sometimes see it used. |
Hi all ! There is nothing special about maple and especially about the "special" maple which is sold by Mapleshade . All woods have their unique sonic signature , maple may sound great in one system , cocobola may sound great in another . " Draining vibrations " Pleeeaazzze . Something with weight and inert imho is best under speakers . |
Hello Oregonpapa if you are still out there...
Ref: your 2-12-11 experiment with two 12"x12"x2" marble platforms under each speaker. I would be curious about the performance of the marble if you removed the sandwich of damping material between the slabs. Would improvement result and possibly approach that of the 18x15 mapleshade set up? It seems to me that the sandwich of damping would kill the base response as described in the rocking on the carpet example in article at http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point. |
OK, my unfinished 15 x 18 x 2 Mable Shade maple speaker platforms arrived and I set them up using long brass cones coupling the platforms to the floor through the carpet. The speakers were coupled to the platforms using the speaker's built in brass spikes. The results were not subtle at all. In fact, the system was improved in all areas from top to bottom. All areas of resolution were improved as was the musicality. Voice is incredible. Plucked strings, decay, initial attack a all improved. I'll say with confidence: If you are not using Maple Shade platforms under your speakers, you haven't heard the best your system has to offer. $150.00 for two platforms plus shipping ... a bargain for this type of improvement. Next to come ... a 4" platform finished in rosewood with the heavy brass Mable Shade feet and Isoblocks for my turntable. Stay tuned. |
+1 on the bamboo cutting boards.
There inexpencive at Lowe's and do wonders for speakers on carpet. |
Good thread ... I tried an experiment the other day: I have (and love) a pair of Legacy Sig IIIs. I was using just the speaker spikes driven through the carpet into the wood (raised) floor. I had two 12"x12"x2" marble platforms that consist of two marble slabs sandwiched with dampening material between each slab. I set the slabs on the floor using four of those expensive German brass cones underneath. Then the speakers went on top of the marble slabs using the existing brass speaker spikes. The improvement in the highs and mids were really something ... the best I've had so far. BUT ... there was no bass foundation. I took the speakers back to where they were before and the mids and highs were veiled in comparison ... but the bass was back. So, as as result of this thread, I ordered two 18x15 maple boards from Maple Shade. We'll see what happens and I'll report back. Happy listening everyone. |
My floorstanders on maple platforms thinned out a bit too much for my tastes. I use bamboo cutting boards and am more satisfied with the midrange. |
Johnmcalpin, I use a sistrum stand on top of 4-inch Mapleshade amp stands. My room is carpet over concrete. Unfortunately, I also use a cheap 1 1/2 foot wood speaker stand on top of the sistrum, so I can only hint at what you might want as an answer. Also, this situation is fragile(speakers have been knocked over.). The sistrum tightened the bass and was slightly less warm than when the speakers's stands just sat on the Mapleshade. I didn't like it at first, but decided that the extra bass and precision might be worth it. I will have to change this for security purposes, and I might be interested in Mapleshade's Gibraltor speaker stands. |
Has anybody ever used a Sistrum speaker stand atop a Mapleshade platform?
I've used Sistrum and loved the results under speakers, amp and for a rack. But I like the idea of raising the speakers a few inches for soundstage height. |
Make sure it is the best kiln dried maple hand ruubed with just mineral or tung iol . I use 4" thick ones with oil finish and there is a very obvious changein my syste,. I now have very attractive slabs of very thick maple and brass cones. It look great. The system sound pretty much the way it always did it just loooks better.
Under my preamp a thick dampening pad had a obvious sonic impact. That is likely a function of keepining the tubes as still as I can. My Make shift pad is going to be replaced with a 5 inch tall sandbox of pure tiger maple if Timbernation sends it. I am gointo use finely powcered lead for damping and ballat atop giggantic brass feet I am making to order. They wiegh 20lbs a piece and will sit in a speceial high tension suspended cup. Total figure 100 KG- or 220lbs plus the pre. |
The Mapleshade folks suggest you should use cones between speakers and platforms, and platforms and the floor = twice isolated. I would just experiment to see what works best. Instead of buying four sets of cones right away if you don't already have them, buy two and and test them while driving only one side of your system. Test them on top of the platform, on the bottom, and on both top and bottom, and see which way sounds best to you.
I don't use any cones with my platforms, just connect the speakers to bamboo platforms with Blutack and have the platforms sitting directly on the hardwood floor. Not saying this is best, just works well enough for me for now - much better than having speakers sitting directly on the floor without wooden platforms. |
It will take me a bit to make the stands but I will let you know the results. I do not know if it was this thread or another, but I also found some recycled rubber pucs (from car tires). I got the idea to look at HVAC sound and vibration isolators and thought these might work under the board. But if I am understanding your opinion it is to have the speaker on the board without spikes or should the speaker be spiked as well. |
Sebraasch,
Your room's floor structure is well suited to benefit from wood platforms given my experience and the experience of those above. I tend to agree with Chashas1 about the glass casters, but am also a great believer in trying things out for myself to see what works best. I would try the oak boards without brass cones (directly on the floor or connected with dots of BluTack), with brass cones and casters, and with cones plus disks. I assume you are not interested in placing the brass cones directly onto the your new hardwoods... |
Hi Sebrassch, I don't think I would use the glass coasters if I were you, although it can only take a few minutes to try it. Pierre from mapleshade says that using a disc or wafer under a point lessens the overall improvement. Let us know what you hear... |
Here is another interesting article I have just come across. His theory and finding make sense. Give it a quick read and offer your thoughts.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point |
I have read all of the pro's and con's of speaker bases. So let me ask your opinions of my situation. I have some left over 2" solid American Red Oak from a mantle I have made. I have Kirksaeter Prisma 210 speakers for the front and rear. As I am remodeling my living room and putting in Oak Hardwood floors, I really don't want the brass spikes into the floor. My home is over 100 yrs old and the living room is over a dirt floor basement. The floor is 2x12's with gaps, covered by 3/4 inch OSB, covered by 3/4 inch Oak Hardwood Floor. Do you think brass cones on the base of the speakers into the 2 inch oak block will make a difference. I am willing to put the brass cones on to the oak slab but then I will have to use either the floor protectors or I was thinking about using the old glass furniture casters. What are your thoughts??? |
Wow, alot has transpired here since I last checked in! Anywho, wood that can absorb away the mechanical energy from the component/speaker most efficiently, while damping the back energy trying to re-enter the component/speaker, is obviously the winner. Maple does a great job, having to do with it's hardness vs plastic molecular configuration. The really complicated part is fine tuning platforms (or which component and how thick), using footers where needed, and applying anit-resonance devices/weights where needed in combination to achieve a desired result. I have used 4" butcher block under components with great results and 2" butcher block underneath my subs. The subs responded to brass footers under the platforms and in place of there own plastic feet. The components did not respond favorably to brass footers, and the weights were negligible. It is always a process continues scenario, as it should be, for maximum enjoyment of this crazy arss hobby =:O ) |
Do an Ikea Lack platform, like the Lack Rack, except you'd just be using the two bottom shelves of the set-up (base shelf + first shelf).
Ought to work well, no? |
Hi jejaudio, where's a source for ball bearings?
Thanks |
I use two maple cutting boards sandwiched between two sets of grade 25 tungsten carbide ball-bearings under my 96lb. speakers. Removing the Brass 1/4 x 20 threaded cones that came with the speakers, and putting the 1/2 inch grade 25 tungsten carbide ball bearing in the empty slot works better in my system than brass cones under the maple butcher blocks. So maple and tungsten carbide ball bearing work very well together. This a form of floating your speakers. |
Jrb55 and knownothing, good questions and points. In my somewhat limited experience with the mapleshade boards, I can say that the boards on the floor alone sound better than my floor by itself, and with my own brass cones under the boards things sounded even better. Has anyone tried different brass cones under the mapleshades, or did you go straightaway with their brass footers?
I can't say for sure if there's drainage going on or not, I can say there seems to be less vibration, hence the cleaner articulate sound. |
06-16-09: Jrb25
How does a platform or brass footer "drain vibrations"? Do vibrations act like heat or fluid and flow through materials? Wouldn't footers actually prevent propagation of vibration from an external region (like the floor) to the platform and component in question? Exactly where do these vibrations originate, and what direction are they moving in? Is "isolation" a better way to think about it?
Obviously I am confused about the vibration drainage concept (and a bit skeptical). However, I have heard differences myself, but mostly for spiking speakers to a floor, where the speaker itself is doing the vibrating. from my experience sometimes the original speaker feet can do a good job of keeping the floor-borne vibrations from reaching the speaker cabinet. There are a few speaker manuf who carefully select the speaker feet. Most do not perhaps knowing the customer is going to use some after-mkt solution. So, chances are very high that the speaker feet will need to be addressed. Where do vibrations originate? They originate in the electronics itself. Current flowing thru electronics generates an EMF & that causes components to vibrate which eventually couple into the chassis, CD player drive is mechanically rotating & passes its vibrations into the chassis, power xformers vibrate (& even hum), if the chassis is not isolated well then floor-borne & air-borne vibrations get coupled to it. So, vibrations are everywhere & they can be destructive to audio playback. How does brass drain vibrations? This is my understanding - Brass is an alloy of copper & zinc & the crystalline structure of this binary pair makes it a very good electrical & thermal conductor. WHen the flat portion of the brass cone is couple/attached to the underside of the chassis the vibrations in the chassis find a low impedance path. These vibrations create heat in the brass structure that is dissipated & the rest is conducted away from the chassis by the metal into the rack shelf (the pointy end of the brass cone is coupled to the rack shelf). Since the pointy end of the brass cone has a very small surface area the vibrations from the rack shelf find it hard to enter the brass cone - it acts like a high impedance point. Hence the analogy to an electronics diode wherein the brass cone is called a mechanical diode as it allows vibrations to drain from the chassis into the rack shelf but does not allow vibrations from the rack shelf into the chassis. If you read Audiopoints' & Mapleshade's website you'll read that the purity of brass is important i.e. the alloy should be kept binary as far as possible. The reason for this, according to my understanding, is that addition of lead or tin or nickel reduces the thermal & electrical conductivity dramatically making it less effective as a cone. The mechanical strength is increased by the addition of these other metals but it seems that varying the content of zinc alone can yield a strong enough brass for audio use. (someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.) |
Jrb25,
According to Mapleshade website:
"You can't get good sound just by placing the speaker's flat bottom on the floor or on a stand. Because of the large area, low-pressure contact, much of the cabinet's vibrational energy is reflected back instead of being drained efficiently and cleanly down into the floor."
I find this only marginally satisfactory
A site selling Reference Points products (http://storesonline.com/site/1609406) claims:
"The sharp cone point couples to the shelf, floor or platform and acts as a mechanical diode, channeling vibration out and preventing unwanted ambient (floor) and stand vibrations from entering."
"Mechanical Diode"???
I guess the idea is that a given weight connected through a smaller brass point focuses energy being produced internally into whatever is below it. A massive maple platform is rigid to a point but has the capacity to absorb or dampen at least some of this energy, thus "draining" internal vibration "away" from speaker or equipment cabinets.
In the reverse direction, the thick slab of wood absorbs some of the energy from the floor or shelf and keeps it from entering the gear from the bottom up. The overall thickness and weight of these platforms keeps them from resonating like the back of a violin or guitar, but the resonant properties of the wood work instead to absorb and dissipate energy as wood fibers move slightly adjacent to each other - I assume generating some heat in the process. |
How does a platform or brass footer "drain vibrations"? Do vibrations act like heat or fluid and flow through materials? Wouldn't footers actually prevent propagation of vibration from an external region (like the floor) to the platform and component in question? Exactly where do these vibrations originate, and what direction are they moving in? Is "isolation" a better way to think about it?
Obviously I am confused about the vibration drainage concept (and a bit skeptical). However, I have heard differences myself, but mostly for spiking speakers to a floor, where the speaker itself is doing the vibrating. |
I don't think you can automatically make universal claims for each product, good or bad. I think it to be very system dependent. The maple boards didn't work well with a friend's system, in mine they're superb. The Sistrum may have the same effect. Do they offer a return policy? |
I have been using maple stands in various designs under amps, preamps, CD players, and speakers for a few years now. I have found I preffer maple to a few maunufactured brands including Sistrum.
I just finished building a copy of Mapleshades 4" maple stands for my Gallo ref 3.1 speakers. I did not buy the expensive brass footers, I instead tapped the holes I drilled for the feet to accept the feet that came with the speakers. They thread directly into the maple, no inserts. I also routed in a space to accept the grill which has to sit 1/2" lower than the surface of the stand in order to line up the screw holes in the back of the speakers. They sound better without the grills in place but I have a batch of grandchildren (all toddlers) and so I need to be able to have the grills in place some times. I don't think Mapleshade offers this option, but they should. It only took an hour to make a template for the router.
I set the speakers back up and listened this afternoon. I am very happy with the sound. Much larger and more open detailed soundstage. Imaging and bass have tightened up. A definite improvement across the board. I heard nothing that I felt was a detriment to the sound in my brief listening session.
Something probably could be gained from the addition of the brass footers, More mass and much better coupling to the floor, plus the brass factor certainly is something to consider, but the cost of the footers alone from Mapleshade is $788.00. I have $80.00 and a few hours of time in mine.
Mapleshade (style) stands under speakers, at least Gallo 3.1 speakers are a definite improvement. |
Emailists, my experience with the 4" Mapleshade bases and brass footers
for the Gallo Ref 3 speakers was diametrically opposed to your view. Instead of
killing the sound, they opened it up and made it fuller and richer. and
substantially more dynamic. Compared to another (friend's) stock Ref 3 on a
direct side-by-side comparison, the speaker on the Mapleshade base was so
superior that we could hardly tell the stock one was playing. My friend ordered
the Mapleshade bases the next day. I see his comments are above. Dave |
Emailists,
As a user of Sistrum and maple platforms, I don't feel they use the same philosophy- maple has (as everything else) it's own resonance freguency, and instead os "draining" vibrations away from the supported component, they "accumulate" that energy, and then release it back ( approx. the same, as the speakers cabinets do, causing "smearing" of the sound).
Sistrum on the other hand do not store energy, because of the different properties of steel vs. wood, and do release the energy into the integrated metal cones.
Under the speakers, in particular, maple on brass cones absolutely "killed" the sound, robbed it of definition, energy and dynamics. Herbies products in the same application, were even worse. |
Emailists, I'm using the Nanomounts (just for the last 10 days) and trying to get a handle on their contribution to the sonics. I think it's positive, but pretty subtle. Note that the ones used to separate the top of the cart from the headshell area on your arm depend on both the cart and headshell underside being perfectly flat. I note in your pix that the cart extends pretty far forward from the end of the arm which would complicate the positioning of the Nanomounts there. Dave |
