Manger Audio Loudspeakers. Has anyone listened to these?
I have the Manger S1 active speakers. They were damaged in shipping having one of the amps crap out. Before the amp went out I did get 5 hours of listening time in. Stunning sound and made my Audiovector R3 speakers sound lower class. Very fast, Quad like sound but with bass and dynamics. Quiet presentation with no distortion. Keepers |
*L* Well, I reserve the right to temper my 'changes'. ;) But we could have some sort of good time. *G* Distributed subs reminds me of one touting the DEBRA sub array with 5 units. Not huge drivers. either....curious enough to try. I've literally done a Walsh 'surround' array with a single sub; it displayed interesting 'characteristics' that I'm compelled to explore. Even if it's only for personal grins and enjoyment. I'd bet I could get your attention as well....en guarde! *L* No fat corner posts for me, no. Shafts, minimalist. Better hf by lowering the entire unit...almost too simple. Better hf #2 is going 2way, a Walsh tweet with Walsh mf drivers. I have a small pair I use as my main 'puters' monitors, with a small sub under desk.... Haven't blown them up yet. but there's no reason I should either....*G* |
@asvjerry, an afternoon at my house and that would change:-) Most speakers are more or less omnidirectional. The penalty is a lot of energy is wasted bouncing off walls going everywhere but the listening position and you have a more complicated and expensive room treatment situation. You can however make it work. I have heard it work in a stupid small overtreated room. Go figure. Too directional (beaming) is a bad situation with which I lived for over two decades. Only one person gets high frequencies from both speakers and there is absolutely no image off center. This was the main reason I had my eye on the Sound Labs for around 10 years. Which in my room is perfect. Everyone in the seating positions back hears everything from both speakers. My desk is in the back of the room on a side wall and the sound is much better. Sound only bounces off the side walls behind my listening position out of harms way. Since there is no back wall until two rooms later I get the ambience of the whole first floor. It sounds like a small jazz club. I have to use an array of subwoofer in order to match the radiation pattern of the main speakers which are line sources. Two subwoofers get are a pain. You have to keep matching levels as the volume ratio keeps changing with volume. With 4 subwoofers forming a line source I can set their level and forget it. The Ohms do mid bass fine it is in the region where they crossover from pistonic motion to wavy vibration that things get messy. I know them well as I sold them when I worked for Luskin's in Miami. They offer a different color than other speakers in their price range so, I can understand why some people like them. They are not true omnidirectional speakers by the way. High frequencies are limited vertically. If you were to sit down too far away from them you lose high frequencies. This is actually a good thing IMHO. You also have to take the covers off. The corner posts really screw things up. Listen on! |
@axpert BINGO! "The Ghastly Truth". +10 Thank You. *S* @mijostyn... "...Then they started farting all over the place." Yeah, I hate that....the 'acoustic stink' just drives one out of the room....;) Same with what I play with....the 'original Ohm/Walsh variants, victims of the 'tech' of the time., 'Great@200/AWOL@201 watts'. If one directs the lowF to a sub...better, an array, more so..... If one unleashes the main cone from that chore.....;) It gets better...but I have no short stories, anymore. ;) HO, the Manger competes with German Physiks as to high accuracy reproduction in two different approaches as to 'how' being one prefers to have music (or anything else) reproduced feels...'appropriate'. *S* The Mang' don't get 'exposed enough' But I'm an 'omniperv', and Proud of it. *G*;) |
axpert, I totally understand your apprehension. I feel very much the same way. People have been messing with speakers for over 100 years and there is nothing mysterious about the engineering. New materials and CAD have improved the engineering but products that go off the beaten track should always be suspect and treated with a degree of caution. Thus, my inquiry about the Manger. It is a very different approach and I am not hearing a lot to recommend it although it is rather rare in this country. full range drivers have several advantages. They are a perfect point source. They can be made to be directive without beaming. They are phase coherent. The big "but" is that as soon as you ask them to make low bass you force them into making long excursions which force the suspension into the non-linear portion of the range increasing IM distortion and you add doppler distortion on top of that. Pull the deep bass out and you have a remarkably different situation. The same mistake is made trying to make ESL do bass. They can do it but the penalty is very high if you like to listen at realistic levels and I do not mean Rock stadium levels. I mean jazz and symphony orchestra levels. Ths became obvious to me back in 1978 when I started in with Acoustat Model X's. They made wonderful bass as long as you did not take it up over 80 dB. Then they started farting all over the place. Randy Hooker had just come along with his Helmholz resonating subwoofers. A pair of those with a Dalquist Crossover and two Kenwood LO7M amplifiers gave you state of the art bass of the day and let the Acoustats do what they do best unhindered. I have not changed my approach in over 40 years. I have never tried it in the context of a small, very efficient full range driver but I can not see why it would not work wonderfully. It will give you a smaller image but would fit much better in smaller rooms than honking huge ESLs and would cast a lot less. Building a SOTA system for less than $10K for the preamp, amps and speakers would be quite a stunt. |
Something for thought; - - - - regardless of how the sound quality is perceived by a given listener, and regardless of the fact the it will undoubtedly need a sub-woofer, which is not unusual, pertaining to many speaker designs being offered on the market today, my real concern here would be, availability of dealership interaction, if needed. I may have missed something, but I can only determine (1) US based dealer. That fact alone has sent me in the opposite direction from considering several speaker designs that are quite credible sounding. I certainly don't want to have to factor in accessibility and credibility of a dealer along with a somewhat obscure design/manufacturer of speakers. I had a problem with a very finely reviewed OPERA speaker, some years ago. Very scant representation in the USA at that time. It took many months to resolve the issue, having to deal with a manufacturer in Italy. Just something to think about before " jumping off this particular bridge". GOOD LUCK ANYHOW. |
The Charney back-loaded horn is quite a pleasant surprise. It is a very complete sounding speaker that does not have the midrange peakiness and roughness common to most full-range systems. I have not heard it with a subwoofer, but, I bet it would work well with a sub kicking in below 100 hz. Yes, the AER BD series is quite expensive. They have a BD 5 which is not even mentioned on their website and I bet it is incredibly expensive. |
@larryi , I never heard of AER either. The BD 3 is quite a driver judging by their specs. 106 dB/watt/meter is pretty sick. Take the low bass out of it and you could probably drive it with a 12AX7. $8000/pr is on the steep side though. It seems the Germans really like full range speakers. I am not crazy about horn loading them. I would prefer crossing to a sub at 100 Hz which will lower distortion and increase overhead. The difference in efficiency can be managed with an input level control on the sub amplifier. The 15 Class A watts you would get out of the Pass Amp Camp amp would make a 777 sound quiet. |
It has been a long time since I've heard the Manger driver. I liked its very fast attack and clean sound (very dynamic), but, it was a touch "hard" sounding. Still, it is a very promising driver. I heard it both with a woofer and as a single driver; it works better with a woofer. My favorite implementation of a single driver is a quarter wave back loaded horn. I've heard both a Voxativ and AER driver is the Charney Audio Companion speaker which is built that way, and both drivers were very good (I preferred the AER for its better top end extension). I have heard some larger full range drivers (12" and 13") and I like them when a tweeter is added on top (the big driver being driven full range while a tweeter protected by a 1st order high pass crossover comes in way on top. |
@asvjerry , age sucks. And the Mangers do have a very large motor behind the membrane or whatever it is. I'm leaning towards the Fostex driver. It looks well made and is relatively inexpensive. If this approach works out well I might go to a more expensive driver but you can forget about $59K. 16 X 30 would be w x d, speakers on the 16 foot wall with a listening position mid way in the room. 45 degrees will cover wall to wall at that distance putting the primary reflection to the side of the listener out of harms way. |
Agreed, DMLs' are not efficient....noting that Techtonics' PL-12 panels can coast @ 350 RMS whereas the ribbon is one-sixth of that. DML's are noted for the wide dispersion, and a 'horn loaded' ribbon would mate well with that. A Tech rep @ NAMM '16 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w91Vfp8bp0 ) claims 'no room interaction', but I'll assume he's referring to a 'large room', if not a hall. *L* They're certainly not like any 'Maggie' one might compare them to....;) An early reference to Mangers' details a 'back to back' arrangement; my 'seat of the pant's' observation would indicate that the large magnet's would defeat any useful dipole radiation....mho, for what it's worth... (That, and a dollar might get one a cross-town bus tix....*G*) '16x30'....Is that 'w x d', or the reverse? I've typically lived in the 'd x w' situation, which certainly effects my experience of things audio...that, and 'age-related high end roll-off' which is basically inevitable. ;) |
@bondmanp , There certainly is, Open Baffle! @ncdogdoc , Interesting that you heard this and I think you are absolutely right. The reason is probably that these speakers and planar speakers are strongly directional which limits room interference Rickderuyter, Thanx, had not hear of those either. @asvjerry , That is what I was alluding to. The Techtonic drivers have IMHO two failures. They are very inefficient, 82 dB/1watt/meter at best and they disperse over 180 degrees. Optimal in a 16 X 30 foot room is 45 to 60 degrees. Wide dispersion increases room interaction corrupting the image. Wide dispersion speakers add energy from the room at 3-4kHz increasing sibilance. Some sibilance is due to bad recording but most is due to the room! Recordings of female voices and violins I once thought were bad turned out to be fine when I switched to directional speakers. |
Good evening... More accurately, a Manger (and Walsh drivers) are 'bending wave transducers' that create a 'ripple' in their surface element, as opposed to pistonic motion of the voice coil on a cone. In a Manger, this is a flat 'plate' membrane; in a Walsh, a cone typically inverted & stretched in its' vertical axis. The Walsh-style driver is used in Ohm speakers, which are omnis in nature. The Mangers' are used more like a typical driver, mounted on the face of a cabinet. You might look this over: https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/ Both share the physics behind DML (Distributed Mode) Loudspeakers; 'flat membrane' speakers, which range from the 'poster speakers' (which look like a picture/painting of some size, hung on the wall) to hall arrays; the best of which I've found are: https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/product/pl-12-distributed-mode-loudspeaker/?id=product-805 I find this variant appealing in that two DML panels flank a AMT ribbon driver, very similar to my large ESS Heils...*S* For one with a reeallly large listening space, one could go extreme: https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/NEWPL12-HDR-10-SPKR-LINE-ARRAY.png Better Walsh radiators can be found @ German-Physiks.com, but be prepared for the prices... http://www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com ...not only offers new versions of the 'original' Ohm speakers, but offers a 'stand-alone' Walsh radiator very similar to the G-P drivers.... ...and quite like the drivers I DIY for my own amusement. ;) Enjoy your music the way you do, J |
One more unwanted opinion. I did a lot of ob research and settled on the Lii’s; crystal 10 and w15 woofers with crossovers. First time fun and just started and not dialed in but impressed. I am coming from electrostats and a hiatus and kef before that. Little Betsy and eminence alpha woofers is a good entry point for fun. Maybe mark audio. Decware also makes interesting drivers (more expensive) I have not heard any. Visaton 200b . That in short is what I came across other than mentioned. |
I have heard the Manger setups at the major audio shows and very much liked the sound. I think single driver or planar speakers do better in the smaller room environments at the shows, as both tend to project a very solid coherent sound for my ears. I am not one for a lot of bass, so I cannot comment on that. |
glennewdick, thanx. I had heard of Voxative but not Lii. Voxative certainly has nuts. $59K for a pair of 8" drivers with leather surrounds no less. But, they do have more reasonably priced units. I'm thinking an 8 of 10" speaker. The larger driver will beam the midrange more making the speaker more directional which I think is one of the best ways to avoid room interaction. Pulling the deep bass out of it should lower distortion quite a bit. I was thinking of using a pair of Nelson Pass's Amp Camp amps on them, a MiniDSP and a pair of my model 4 subs. Part of the game here is trying to make a killer system for as little money as is reasonable. The Fostex still gets the node for value not sure about sound quality yet. The Lii's are Chinese and I am on a hiatus from their products for the time being. |
I once heard a DIY speaker that used a Manger driver. IIRC, it was augmented in the bass range, either by a built in woofer or stand alone sub. It sounded really good, but it will not do really deep bass without help. It may be similar to a flat Walsh driver, as you put it, but it was still mounted, when I heard it, in a box, with all the issues that come with enclosures. Now, if there was a way to build a speaker with a Manger driver in free air... |
Have a look at LII Audio they are making some very nice full rangers that are proving to be quite good for the money, cheep enough to experiment with. I'm experimenting with the big 18" full ranger but that's just an experiment they have a 15" full range driver that's getting very good reviews and may give you more bass to get lower to the sub crossover. Home - Lii Audio, unique speaker, amplfier, quality and cost-saving parts for HiFi DIY (lii-audio.com) for a better but much more expensive option is the Voxative drivers , sound wonderful some of the best, IMO, made today. Voxativ FULL-RANGE DRIVERS |
@russ69 ,Very few multi driver systems go low enough in the bass. So you cross over to subwoofers at 100 Hz instead of 80 hz. No big deal. I certainly know that full range ESLs image better and I am wondering if a full range driver will do the same thing for point source speakers full range ESLs do for line source speakers. Is it the use of multiple drivers and crossovers that interfere with a speaker's ability to develop the best image? Obviously there are other factors but, I have only ever heard one multi driver point source system with a state of the art image and that was probably more by accident then intent. The owner was playing Waltz for Debbie. Within a few days I had 10 Bill Evans albums. It was the first time I ever heard a system imaging really well and I worked at the only real high end store in the area! Our store sold none of the equipment this fellow had. He was a grade school teacher who also like Alpha Romeos! |
