First, that video of the painted room was pretty cool.
The stereo shop I work with most often has all the listening rooms decorated (?) as described in the OP. Some years ago I asked the owner about it. He basically said the same thing about the illusion effect on the soundstage. All I know is that things sound great there as evidenced by the staggering amount of money that I’ve spent there over the years. 🤣
But that’s great for a dedicated listening room in a hi-fi shop. The rest of us have the reality of life. Meaning spouses, kids, other uses for the room, etc. I my case, I just turn out all the lights except one small light on my equipment rack. That and all the meters etc on my McIntosh gear give me enough light to be able to walk around and see the CD player for disc changes. Works well enough for me. I drift off into the music every time.
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First, that video of the painted room was pretty cool.
The stereo shop I work with most often has all the listening rooms decorated (?) as described in the OP. Some years ago I asked the owner about it. He basically said the same thing about the illusion effect on the soundstage. All I know is that things sound great there as evidenced by the staggering amount of money that I’ve spent there over the years. 🤣
But that’s great for a dedicated listening room in a hi-fi shop. The rest of us have the reality of life. Meaning spouses, kids, other uses for the room, etc. I my case, I just turn out all the lights except one small light on my equipment rack. That and all the meters etc on my McIntosh gear give me enough light to be able to walk around and see the CD player for disc changes. Works well enough for me. I drift off into the music every time.
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Eyelids? Pretty simple, pretty cheap. I keep mine on me just in case.
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I think that's a great idea. It really plays into the whole idea of psycho-acoustics. I suspect the ASR guys would like it because it reinforces the idea that so much of what we perceive is mental tricks our brains play on us.
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I'll cover my brick fireplace with velour. Seriously, though, my room is full of art on every wall, sculptures on the floor, and on top of record cabinets. I guess I'm used to having them there, and they don't get in the way of my listening pleasure. Now, someone new to the room, it might, but that's their problem. You can see my mess(it's not a mess) in my details.
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@hifikenobi "once one experiences a true disappearing act, its jaw dropping."
Congrats on your experience! As you have discovered, given the right environment the human mind can take a system to much higher levels.
@jfrost27 Our local high-end stereo shop also does proffessional, good looking, well decorated rooms. I don't understand why "the rest of us have the reality of life" somehow means we can't have beautiful rooms too because we have kids?
This concept is NOT an oddity and doen't somehow 'restrict' your family lifestyle. However, it is a lifestyle choice to have an exciting room... or not.
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TAD! Oh my god... @hifikenobi you have those? It was the first time I ever experienced disappearing speakers. T.H.E. Show in Long Beach 2024. There were the Reference 1's I think, both the floor standing and the compact next to each other. I couldn't tell where the sound was coming from, which pair was on, the sound came from everywhere and nowhere in that room. Uncontrolled laughter, I couldn't believe the experience. Then I saw the $93,000 price tag and said "Ah well, it was nice while it lasted..." :)
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@hheedah I can just imagine! I think I’ve seen videos from that show
Here is my system:
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/12022
These are my second pair. I was going to upgrade from CR1 to R1TX, but they were too big for my room so I went with CR1TX. They are indeed expensive but unmatched, at least the types of music I love.
Just saw your system. Never heard your speakers. They look interesting!
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I agree that a black background to remove visual stimulus may help relax the mind which may enhance awareness of the 3d sound field.
However, black is an unpopular wall color and if sharing the space, others will typically resist black. A sleep mask might work as well.
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I'm sorry but painting the wall behind the speakers will I'm the sound. I don't see it...I feel listening to music in a movie theater or a music hall which are dark sounds good.So does that mean hearing music at a concert sounds better at night than during the day when the sun is out ,sounds better,hmmmm.i rather go to a concert at night than during the day because of the heat. BUT when it gets cooler at nite you better bring a sweater especially at Jones Beach by the ocean it gets cooler at nite...I have a system up in my loft space, I have a town house with cathedral ceilings and when I'm sitting down stairs the music fills the room .I like it .,When I was teenager my room was painted dark blue my mother wouldn't let me have a black bedroom....lol.My Uncles living room was painted black with strobe lights ...day glow posters with a black like over them and when you put on Led Zeppelin first two albums the sound was insane...but I was 18 then.
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Dear @treitz3 : "
" When a system performs so superbly, even if your eyes are open and you have visual cues and a true 3-D experience? When a system makes you want to close your eyes to experience even more?
That’s when you know you are listening to a stellar system. "
The @gdaddy1 is not my room/system main priority as it’s not too soundstage.
As many of you I attend often to music hall to listen live MUSIC.
I always seat at near field as I can and normally the orchestra stage is highly iluminated and during the play of the score ovserve that no one close their eyes but the other way around: way open.
Yes in a live MUSIC session I like to listen MUSIC not my " imagination " ( in the instant that you close your eyes you can imagine everything you want everything that your brain builds and in the way you like it. ).
In the recording proccess the microphones are " seated " at near field position to pick up the developed sound not exactly the sound stage.
Characteristics of MUSIC is for me the critical subject: timbre, rhytm, natural brigthness, dynamic power, natural tone balance and the like and these and other main characteristics is what I want to appreciate in my room/system listen sessions. I like to listen full range room/system ( with out good bass management MUSIC just can't exist. )
Every room/system develops its own " soundstage " that we can change it according what we prefer about and that " soundstage " it’s not wha comes from the recording microphones.
Each one of us have our MUSIC listen home ystem priorities where in my case soundstage is " important " but almost at the end of my MUSIC charcateristics list.
A question for you: if we are seated at nearfield positon listening at live SPL to a trio of piano, trumpet/horn and battery: can you have a precise and well defined soundstage? and do you think that can listen to that live horn seated at near field for say: half an hour?
A experiences like that are as a learning sessions.
Like I say that’s me and that’s why I " disagree " with some of you. Maybe I’m wrong but it’s what it’s.
I like to listen my system and that my system can put me nearer to the recording.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Dear @treitz3 :
"
When a system makes you want to close your eyes to experience even more?
That’s when you know you are listening to a stellar system "
First than all I know for sure that I'm ignorant of many/several home audio subjects
due to the complex audio world.
Now, in my over 40 years in audio this is the first time that I read a precise " conclusion " like yours and I wonder all what I'm missing , I mean the very good reasons you have and know to arrived to that " conclusion " . that according your sentences I'm far away of a " stellar " kind of room system.
I really apreciated and maybe other gentlemans too that you can share your way of thinking in that important quality subject in a home system. Thank you in advance.
R.
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A book could literally be written about some of the questions presented in the last two posts. Near field is something that I have done before, but isn’t my typical listening style. It can sound fantastic, and has, especially when there are no side walls and there is a valley behind you.
If you are wondering how that was achieved, we set up an outdoor system on a porch that forced you to sit near field. The side walls were pretty much non-existent, because to the Left, only a foot worth of a stone chimney darted out from the wall 17 feet away (fireplace was inside) and there was nothing on the other side. Behind us, the mountain literally dropped off a cliff hundreds of feet below us and didn’t come back up for about a 1/4 mile. That was the absolute best I have ever heard a near field setup.
You do speak truth, in that the microphones do not capture things the way our ears do. That said, the recording and mastering engineers have ways to manipulate the sound, that "recreates" the event, according to how they want it to sound. The best we can ever hope for is the best "approximation" of the original event. Even with the best gear, microphone placement, mastering and recording techniques. Even when utilizing one’s favorite playback format. At the end of the day, it's still just an approximation.
Tom
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Stereo itself creates an audible illusion. I can hear the sax on the left side, bass player on the right and the singer is clear in the middle. Not perfect but pretty darn good when set up correctly. I like it alot!
@treitz3 the set up on porch is very interesting. You created a blank space with no visual distractions between the speakers that would enhance depth of field. Did you ever listen to it on a dark night? Looking into the dark abyss? With eyes wide open you can 'see' the musicians. Instead of staring at a wall.
Since I don't have a mountain drop off I'm using dark faric to create a similar type of effect that works either near field or equalateral.
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Well, not completely dark. There was the kitchen light that shined through the full window door off to the left of the setup. The illusion of what was heard was flat out, special. This was just a crazy setup we created out of leftover gear at an audio event eons ago. Still unforgettable.
We were obviously in the mountains, so no ambient or city lights were around us. The nearest town was 7 miles away, over the other side of the mountain, and even then. That was the first town for about 30 to 50 miles, in all directions. Plus, it was a very small town....so it was rather dark. If you walked off of the porch? You couldn't see a thing, even after 5 minutes of no lights being on. A flashlight was required to see.
The only exception was when there were no clouds and an unobstructed (by the mountains) full moon.
Tom
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With eyes wide open you can 'see' the musicians. Instead of staring at a wall.
@gdaddy1 if you are staring at the front wall (without the paint/fabric in place), then you still have to work out your speaker placement, since you are not able to get the depth that the system should project. With the right setup you would have the perception of depth with vocals (most of them) near the front and the instruments either on the sides and/or behind - depends on the recording.
Still interested in seeing your setup with the paint/fabric; if you can post it.
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Dear @treitz3 : Thank's again.
I knew that I was missing " something " wider on what I could imagine.
For a few days I will be busy but I come back to you as soon is possible due that exist many critical and inresting audio issues in your posts that I would like to share here.
Rigth now I only can think that in that " free space " the speaker efficiency spec could be really important.
R.
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@milpai Of course you still have to "work out your speaker placement". That's critical to the creation of the phantom stereo image. The 'black wall' simply makes the wall disappear and creates imaginary space for the musicans. As I pointed out, otherwise you're looking at a wall that detracts from the stereo experience you worked so hard to create.
I don't have a photo handy but my system looks like this with less equiptment clutter in front. Minimalism is key. Equiptment off to the side is even better.
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@gdaddy1
You are speaking to an issue that has been near and dear to my heart for a long time .
I’m all about ambiance and setting up the most effective presentation possible.
First, I’m going to reference this in terms of my home theatre set up.
Around 2009 I had my two channel listening room - which essentially took up our front living room in the house - renovated to do high-performance projection based home theatre duties as well.
And yet at the same time, not only did I want to have a high-quality surround system in the room as well as a mass massive projection screen, I also wanted to maintain a completely separate two channel stereo system to indulge my audiophile whimsies. So I was looking to balance a number of very difficult things - a room that was for high performance two channel, As well as high performance surrounded Home theatre duties, and yet at the same time it’s in the front main room of our house and I didn’t want it to look like some dark home theatre came.
I had spent many years in the flatscreen world optimizing the experience of even watching movies on my plasma TV, which involved draping black velvet around the flatscreen, and even creating black masking for Cinemascope movies. Nobody I know was doing that just for their flatscreen viewing.
And I brought the same obsessiveness to moving up to projection based watching .
I chose an extra large screen on my wall , and I surrounded the screen with black velvet, and I created four way automated black velvet masking so that the screen can take on any shape size for any aspect ratio.
But the other important move I made was that… I always found room rooms with a projection screen and left centre right speakers plugged on the floor around the screen to look haphazard and unfinished.
So I carried out a short black velvet stage area at the bottom of the screen a few feet into the room. (it’s an area board covered with black velvet). And then I had fitted black velvet covers made for my left centre and right speakers, as well as covering anything else stands, included in black velvet.
And those are placed on that black velvet stage area. What does is it makes everything look cohesive around the screen. And through experiment I had found that ANY visual cues around the screen - including loudspeakers - have an effect on the perception, even if you’re not deliberately paying attention to this distraction of the speakers. Any reflection from the speakers adds another visual cue of distraction. So with my set up the speakers in black velvet completely and utterly disappear from view not only when watching movies, but under most lighting conditions. Unless we’re talking about bright daylight coming in most people don’t even know those speakers exist in the room, even though they are fairly large.
And then for the ceiling, we did a bulkhead built down covered and stretched brown filled that looks like a solid ceiling. The stretch brown felt provides much more light rejection from the screen than any dark paint could manage, preserving contrast on the screen.
Also acoustic material is strategically placed in parts of the ceiling behind that felt.
And then I hid curtain tracks around the top of the room. And there are brown velvet drapes that serve both as decoration, and I can also pull those to any points along the wall I want to manage sidewall reflections for my two channel listening. But also behind those thick brown curtains are thinner, ultra black velvet curtains.
Those black velvet curtains can be pulled across all the walls in the room, turning the room into a “ Batcave black box” for movie viewing. In this way, the room just disappears from view leaving a huge screen is just floating in front of you, and also maintaining the highest contrast on the screen as possible.
So this allows me to have a room that looks much more normal and bright and cheery during the day, but which can at any time be turned into a very high performance Home theatre (7.0 surround… my speakers go low enough. I don’t feel the need for a subwoofer.).
pt 2 next…
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OK, so what about the subject of this thread two channel stereo?
I have my stereo speakers pulled well out from the screen wall behind them, into the optimal position for best sound immersion and three dimensional imaging.
I’m not a fan of seeing speaker drivers when I’m listening to music because my mind tends to map the music to those drivers - “ The drum cymbals are coming from those tweezers right there.”
So I have layered lighting in my room, pot lights, and track lights, which I can modulate in different ways. I have some settings for music which turn off the lights over the loudspeaker themselves, and so they mostly going to darkness.
And the latest generally dim in the room.
What about the idea of black behind the speakers?
Well, I can do this two ways.
In one way I can simply have the black masking of the screen close all the way, which turns the entire wall behind the speakers to a flat layer of black velvet, totally disappearing.
The other way is, I can simply have the layer of lights behind the speakers turned off, and only dim lights over the listening sofa. And this effectively plunges the area behind the speakers into low light or black.
Both of those are effective, and it can be really neat in terms of imaging.
However, in the end, I’ve simply found that I don’t need to do this.
I actually really like the mood that some coloured light spring to the equation. And so my typical listening session is with the lights dimmed down low, but with coloured lights on the projection screen behind between the loudspeaker. Usually, they are doing slow undulations of different colours. I find this even helps add a sort of biasing effect that makes the sound a bit better. And I don’t seem to suffer any problem in terms of the sensation of imaging or depth or anything else. It’s still spectacular.
For reference here are some photos of the room in action:
Here are two photos in daylight where you can actually make out some of the black velvet, covered home theatre speakers. First shot with my Thiel 2.7 speakers, the following shot with my Joseph audio perspective speakers:
https://i.postimg.cc/j2ym15mt/IMG-3849.webp
https://i.postimg.cc/HnBN1TFF/IMG-3862.webp
Wide shot here shows the brown felt covered ceiling bulkhead I described:
https://i.postimg.cc/Px4YKBj2/IMG-1650.jpg
Bright shot during the day with lots of light coming in the windows.
The projection screen size behind the speakers is set on “ small” because I like lots of black around the speakers with the lights down.
Otherwise, I can make the screen pretty much the full size of the wall behind the speakers:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y9dV34LQ/IMG-2173.jpg
Night listening, image from the listening sofa:
https://i.postimg.cc/T3qMbbyt/IMG-1792.jpg
Alternate view:
https://i.postimg.cc/tgy4HV7h/IMG-1806.jpg
And keep things neat and tidy in the listening and Home theatre room, all my two channel and Home theatre sources and amplification are in a separate room:
https://i.postimg.cc/6QzM7DN1/IMG-1352.jpg
I hope there’s something in there moderately interesting for some folks . Peace out!
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@gdaddy1
sorry didn’t mean to kill your thread …:/)
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@prof Bravo!! I found it very interesting and thanks for sharing. Looks amazing!! Your efforts have created a room that's above and beyond. "Batcave" is perfect for me.
One question... why are the speakers toed out so much? My first instinct was to push the speakers back toward the back wall and toe them in a bit. I would imagine you've already done that? Just curious.
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@gdaddy1
Glad you got something out of it.
in terms of the Home theatre experience, It’s been about 15 years
And I swear, I pinch myself practically every time I use it.
I cannot believe how amazing the experience is.
As for the position of the speakers :
The front on photo of the Joseph speakers from my listening position is misleading. The slight wide angle effect causes a distortion to the sides, which makes it look like the speakers are slightly facing outward.
The speakers are in fact towed in lightly towards listening position.
(though I don’t like strong toe-in. I find with most speakers imaging gets too tight constricted and artificial sounding).
In terms of the position in the room:
If you look at the first photo I posted which shows my Thiel speakers from just outside the listening room, you’ll see that there are some space restrictions - the floor standing speakers can’t really go much further back towards the screen wall because then the right speaker is blocking the entranceway into the room. That’s why you just pulled up close to the edge of the sofa.
However, impractical terms ends up being a non-issue since the position of the speakers pulled out from the wall that much our ideal for me - I get the extremely smooth response and sense of immersion that I’m looking for. So even without the room issues, the speakers will probably end up exactly where they are in any case.
Instead of sliding the speakers back-and-forth, my listening sofa is on big floor sliders, and therefore I’ve been able to easily slide the sofa back-and-forth within a couple feet to dial in my listening position with respect to the speakers.
As of late I have arrived at a 7 foot listening distance to the Joseph speakers, which are spread about 8 feet apart.
Normally, I have tried to split the difference between the immersion and south stage size I want to experience but also the focus and density of imaging I also want to maintain. Moving closer to the speakers, slightly trades off image focus and density - moving further slightly trades off immersion for more focus and density.
However, once I started employing a curved diffuser between and behind the loudspeakers that was game changing! That diffuser adds focus in density to the images, so that I can now sit closer to the speakers with that cinema scope spread between the speakers for immersion, and yet the images in that vast space are really dense, palpable and focussed.
It as close to the best of all worlds that I’ve heard yet in a system.
So I’m very happy.
I also helped things along last year by experimenting with tons of different footers and different materials between my loudspeakers and the carpeted wood floor they sit on.
I ultimately ended up with a thick granite base, which is a sandwich of granite and sound damping material, with the speakers using iso acoustics Gaia footers on the back, and on the front speaker spikes into hockey pucks to get exactly the front angling I want, and then the granite base is sitting upon four corners of hockey pucks with iso acoustics floor spikes beneath.
The result was a combination of tightening up of the bass, refining the tone and timber, and raising the speakers so that the sound stage creates a more realistic height, and sounds even more vast.
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Dear @treitz3 : I don't have a dedicated audio room and the nearfield seat position is the best trying to listen as in a "free space " where the room stays out of " consideration ", yes I know that's just a dream but is all I have. As you I don't listen always at near field position.
Even all what involves my room/system I could think is a system with very high resolution and acceptable quality level performance. Main characteristic is an almost non-existent elctronics/speakers noise floor where I or any one can't detect it even with the volume wide open and with the ear at 10 mm. from the silk dome tweeters.
From there the speakers 95db efficiency helps to have that quality level to the listen reproduced sound, any kind of MUSIC at any SPL. No it does not have the " immediacy " that only horn driver has but at least " approaching " it.
For me that immediacy is an intrinsical characteristic of live MUSIC at nearfield position where between you and the source exist only " the air " and is from here where the other live MUSIC characteristics are developed through those whole instruments/source transient responses. Only an opinion.
Yes, my system is a full range one and has external powered subwoofers, even that it does not has any external hi-pass cdrossover for the main speakers where the audio signal could be degraded and this no/hi-pass it's because I took advantage of my Levinson monoblocks original design where the amps are coupled by an input cap and it's through this input cap where the high-pass is " happening " at around 80 hz
In that way the speaker/subs signal comes directly from my Phonolinepreamp to the amps and subs. Other characteristic in my system is that the elctronics it does not use any input connector for the electrical power and neither input fuses: both " elements " generates some kind of different type and level of added noise.
In the other side the noise floor enviroment is something that I learned to " disappears " when in listen sessions where in your system is just truly non-existen ( I envy you about. ).
" That was the absolute best I have ever heard a near field setup. ", that's for sure and maybe only a few in the audio world can have same kind of outstanding experience in their own systems. Congratulations "! !.
You are rigth, we all are in the " hands " of the whole recording engineers and yes what we all listening in our room/system is a far-away " approximation " of the live recorded MUSIC and my main target is to stay "truer/nearer " to that " approximation " trying , between other things, to put at minimum any noise/distortions developed at my room/system adding the less and losting the less too.
My very long trip in the audio world looking to listen MUSIC was and still is a learning one trying to scale step by step to the next level of that audio/MUSIC learning ladder till we find out " total " satisfaction " according each one of us audio/MUSIC targets and priorities. Ok, those it what I want to share here.
@milpai " With the right setup you would have the perception of depth with vocals (most of them) near the front and the instruments either on the sides and/or behind - depends on the recording. " obviously with out that black paint/fabric on place.
I agree with you and yes @gdaddy1 needs to works with because IMHO his room/system has a " problem " that till today was not yet detected, this is part of the " learning ladder ".
R.
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I am glad I have a lot of time on my hands to waste, because reading that burned up a little bit of it.
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