Lyra Atlas experiences

0_hotter....when you say demag every second month....you only use the Cardas (or similar) disc???    I certainly would check with Lyra if it is wise to do this.  Some high end cartridges have internal wiring that could be melted with some demag treatments.

Stingreen - sorry, did not see your post before - i use the Aesthetix Benz MC Demagnetizer. The Lyra Atlas manual says periodic fluxbusting is ok provided one follows the instructions (I do). 

@  o_holter, Check your loading and sra, of course vta as well.  Your system may react differently than others with loading and gain. Do not expect the Atlas to be the "end all be all", nothing is perfect everything depends upon preferences, equipment synergy ~ critical and listening tastes.   All of my past Lyra's have been tracking champions and their customer service top notch.  

ferrari250, agree, my experience is the same. Working with loading and adjustment is very important. Although the Atlas is so good that it is in a sense also a problem - it still sounds good, even with suboptimal adjustments (to an extent) and loading.

I am sure there are golden ears out there who would dispute this, but this is what I have found, with my average ears, living with Lyra cartridges for many years. I can get them into a very good setup. With each new generation of Lyra (for me: Clavis  - Titan - Atlas), this zone has been widened. If you cannot setup this cartridge to sound good, something is seriously wrong.

This is all very fine. But the challenge starts from there - how to make the cartridge play not just very good, but optimal.

Tracking - I had some early versions of the Clavis with tracking problems. I moved up to the Titan, with less, and then the Titan i, with even less problems. After I got the Atlas, there is even less mistracking. Tracking problems are mainly non-present, appearing very seldom.

The Atlas should have no tracking problems with any commercially made LP.

Hi there - an update on my Atlas experience.
It has now run - maybe - 1500 hours. My model was made in 2013. I try to use it sparingly.
I have no clear signs of cartridge wear, so far. It has changed tone, seems a bit more mellow now, not sure, cannot A-B-test
Michael Fremer noted "sibilance" as sign of wear, after some years of heavy duty use of the Atlas. So far, no problem for me. Also, mistracking is very rare.  
In sum - the Atlas continues to do a marvellous job.

mmakshak gave a good comment, above:
"Reading all this, you can see how intellectual arguments can lead anywhere(especially if you get one thing wrong).  I use parameters as an outside guiding force-not the be all and end all of all things.  You need to get in the ballpark(with these), and then use your ears to actually hear what anti-skate does.  I think, once again, focusing on one aspect of the sound, is a mistake.  You can make a minute adjustment-let's say one where the channels seem correctly balanced-but find, after sleeping on it, that your desire to listen has diminished.  This method introduces your subconscious, which holds many more parameters than your conscious, or intellectual mind. "

@o_holter Several months ago, I took the plunge and acquired a lightly used Atlas. I noticed that the cantilever was off center when playing and at rest. Sounded fine but I sent it to Lyra for cleaning and adjustment.

Back from Lyra it looked to be in perfect straight alignment.  I use a MintLP or an Accutrak arc protractor as well as a USB microscope and a Foz for setting up cartridges. 

Compared to to my previous Delos, the Atlas is more dynamic, more information gathering and has much deeper and better defined bass.  This is especially apparent in my stereo when mounted on a Mørch DP-8.  This cartridges sounds great on simple acoustic and jazz as well as more complicated rock and electronic.  I tend to use my Koetsu when I feel that rhythmic information is more important but I really love how music explodes off the recording with the Atlas.  I learn a lot about the intrinsic nature of a cartridge when I can compare it to others in my system.

I find that my Pass XP-15 is not that sensitive to loading but I settled on 500 ohms. I hope to listen to it through an Atma-sphere MP-1 in the future.

-Karl

I have owned a lot of cartridges. Goldfinger, Anna, dynavector XV-1s, ikeda Kai, earlier atlas among others. At present I am spinning Lyra atlas sl. All I need to say, after decades, I am done! If I had to pick my second option. If I could not have the atlas sl. It would be the Kai. I love the low out put cartridges. Much more enjoyable to my older ears. Just my view.
✌️🖖

Dear @o_holter  @whatthe  @karl_desch : Masybe this is the best time to  buy a totally new LOMC cartridge ( o_holter, your Atlas has 1.k hours. ) that I have no doubt can set as a new reference or at least the more serious challenges to all other top today cartridges:

https://www.ortofon.com/mc-century-p-863?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202018&am...


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Thanks!
Karl - happy you enjoy the Atlas, I do too, it is in a very high league. My cantilever is maybe not quite optimal but I have never sent it in for a check.
Whatthe - I would probably think so too, with the Atlas SL. But my phono stage needs a stronger output from the cart, to do its magic.
Raul - yes the Atlas has run maybe 1500 hours, but according to the reputation of Lyra carts, it should be good for more, maybe 2500. Wear of the cart suspension is a possible cause of pumping - not sure. I think it has behaved this way more or less since I got it.

@rauliruegas gave bad advice at beginning of thread. I have an Atlas with an all tube system on an VPI Extended Aries I, with the 3D tonearm and it is freaking terrific! It is by far the best MC that I’ve ever owned. Just absolutely rotten advice. If you never owned a cartridge then how can you comment on the sound??? 

@rauliruegas    personally after owning the A90, I would never touch an expensive Ortofon cartridge with replicant 100 stylus again. @ around 1000 hours playtime, it does not last long enough.

  Lyra and Dyna cartridges last at least 2500 to 3000 hours easily.

  I owned an Atlas since 2012 and the last 2 months the Atlas SL after Lyra rebuilt my worn Atlas.
  Atlas has incredible life, dynamics and attack - but in certain systems can be a double edged sword.  Atlas SL is a little different where is it seems to be even more pure sounding so a little more forgiving.  

  I prefer both Atlas models to the Etna SL which is excellent but a little too forward in the vocal range and misses out on low bass but has excellent tone.

How much did it cost to rebuild your Atlas. I’m facing a possible rebuild and may cost $5995

That is 50% off a new Atlas. You get a brand new Atlas as Lyra do a complete rebuild - the only thing reused is the body.
Sounds like a good deal to me for one of the best cartridges one can buy.

Rebuild costs are similar % in Australia.

Dear @tommyboy65 : I started to own LYra cartridge from the Evolve model passing for almost all models and as I said in that post I heard the Atlas too.

problem is not the Atlas, .poblem is that all tube I/O model.

Yes the Lyra and the specific Atlas " is terrific " performer even that you listen it through tubes that's the wrong electronics ( and yes, I owned and listened top tube electronics including the OP model and that's why I said what I said it. First hand experiences. ) to any LOMC cartridge. Tha's all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @downunder : The A90 as almost all top Ortofon models in the past  are not " expensive " as you said against other top cartridges as Lyra, Clearaudio, Air Tigth and the like.

This is the first time that I read a compliant in the treplicant Ortofon stylus tip regarding its playing time that you said " only " 1000 hours vs 3K hours against Lyra.

I own and owned Ortofon cartridges with replicant and non-replicant stylus tip shapes and never gave me any trouble, maybe because not over 1K hours but if I remember a scientific research by Ortofn people found out that over 500 hours the quality level performance of any cartridge ( Ortofon or non-Ortofon. ) begin  to fall down due to the playing hours where stylus tip starts to shows signs of that terrible and hard cartridge job over the LP grooves. If we want to mantain the " same " quality level performance on top cartridges I think that between 500-750 but no more than 1K hours needs for a a retipp.
Problem is that because we are listen it day by day we really don't take in count that lower and lower quality performance levels but exist that way.

Now, the 100th anniversary is a total Ortofon departure in their cartridge designs because for the very first time they use diamond as cantilever build material when Ortofon never showed to use more " sophisticated and expensive " cartridge materials but more focus in its design and excecution very high quality to that cartridge design.


Please do it me a favor and buy one an after 500 hours I will buy it from you. That cartridge is a must to have.

Btw, the Atlas SL has more "  pure and forgiven " sound because it has lower output that means less coild wire.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I am running my Lyra Atlas - it is maybe a total of 14 - 1500 hours by now.

No major problems. The bad spots in my vinyl collection are like before (mistracking, sibilance).

It has become more "slack" than in the beginning, as is to be expected. Mainly it works to the best, sonically (a bit more more rounded, mellow, ambience-tuned, dimensional).

Michael Fremer got problems with the Atlas after four years - his copy was bought in 2013, like mine. But he described "heavy usage". I suspect this means 2500 - 3000 hours or even more. At that point he heard clear signs of wear, especially, more sibilance. So far, this is not a problem on my cartridge.

Generally, yes, the Atlas is a big investment. But I have never looked back.

The Atlas goes so deep that the woofers can pump (subsonic movement), at least in some arm combinations with low resonance, like my SME V. Yet this usually means good sound, it is not very serious, in my judgement so far. See
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-are-my-woofers-pumping

Have others experienced subsonic woofer pumping with the Atlas or other Lyra carts? If the answer is no, just a little, or yes - what tonearm do you use? Symptom: you see the woofer cone move in and out, even if you don’t hear anything, playing vinyl records - especially in-between tracks, and in the intro and outro grooves. You need to turn up the volume to do the test. You can also use your fingers to feel the cone movement. Example of test LP: Pink Floyd Meddle.

@o_holter I have been using a long-in-the-tooth Clavis DC on and off for years.  I have not experienced any woofer pumping in my system.  If I may make a suggestion (I'm assuming you are using sorbothane pucks in your HW-19) you might consider using a different Duro rating, maybe softer.  Another potential culprit might be the bearing.  An "oil change" and cleaning may help.  Check the best to see if there is any obvious wear that could be getting into the platter assy.

I used the Clavis DC briefly in my VPI HW-19/III (spring sprung, not pucks) until changing to a modified TNT and then to an Aries Extended.  Arms used include Premier FT3 with Sumiko Analog Survival Kit arm wrap, Jelco 750D and JMW Memorial 12.  Never an issue.  

Thank you bpoletti, very interesting. I still have my Clavis DC on the loft, and should probably take it down to test it for woofer pumping. I dont remember much pumping in the years when I used this now well worn cart, but that was with a different tonearm, the very difficult Souther / Triquarts parallel arm, skating around rather than giving a precise image of the groove (in my system at least), though the arm was so light that there was no resonance problem. The compliance of the Clavis, Titan and Atlas are the same I believe - as given from Lyra - 12 at 100hz.

I am no longer using the HW-19, but instead a Hanss T30 which I find superior in most (not all) respects.

Maybe we share an experience - with Lyra cartridges - even the Clavis, and even more, with the Titan, and the Atlas - changing the player and arm makes a difference.

Bpoletti, from what I read, the Jelco 750D has more effective mass than my SME V - 13.48g vs ca 10.5g. So if there is rumble or subsonic pumping you should notice more.

Raul, where did you hear the "Lyra Evolve", as you claim in a post above? This is not a Lyra model I know of. Your idea that good cartridges will sound sub-optimal with tube electronics does not work out, according to my ears. Using the Lyra Atlas with the Aesthetix Io Eclipse dual power. Have you actually heard this combination? If not, please restrict your overall general judgements.

@o_holter the Clavis Evolve was a limited model produced in 1999
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/lyra/clavis-evolve-99.shtml

Does woofer pumping cause any problems? Other than the visual display, does this cause any damage or is it sonically relevant?

OK, thanks folkfreak, sorry Raul! I remember it now. The Evolve model had a restriced run or small edition I believe? I upgraded my Clavis at the time. A friend had the Helicon but never got it quite optimal, he felt. For me, things really started to take off with Lyra when I bought a Titan, later upgraded to Titan i.

Varyat - is it sonically relevant - this is the core issue - very good question. Does the visual (subsonic) pumping cause damage? Not as far as I know. It may strain the woofers but they seem to tackle it. Does it have a negative impact on the music? I am not sure. I think that, yes, maybe, it imparts some more unruliness and listening fatigue in the long run, dynamic parts become more strained. On the other hand, LPs with subsonic pumping (in my system, with the cart-arm resonance down to 7hz or so) are also often very good-sounding albums.

I have never understood the "new battery" thing with the Foz.  Brand new 9V batteries are not uniform in their measurable voltage output, and they generally will be producing somewhat more than 9V when they are new, but the exact value varies between 9 and 10V.  (I once had to buy about 10 of them, and at that time, I measured each one right out of the box.) So, why would the Foz necessarily need a new battery, rather than a battery that makes nearly exactly 9V?  Used 9V batteries very often are producing 9V, exactly. Moreover, if used at a low current draw, they can go on producing 9V for a long time.  So there is something else going on here, in my opinion, unless the Foz draws a lot of current and just plain drags down a battery in a very short time.

Could we get this thread back on line please? The battery comment by lewm is off topic.

Recently I have been able to compare DSD recordings of the Lyra Atlas, to direct vinyl playback, using the Lyra Titan i (since the Atlas is broken). The Atlas recordings show that it is clearly a superior cart, although some of the difference may also reflect larger use of the Titan i - it is more worn. The Titan is certainly a very good cartridge, even if surpassed by the Atlas. The Atlas in more rounded, less "etched" and "hifi", compared to the Titan i, with a considerably greater "being there" effect. Lower noise from vinyl issues - less crack and pop - and more deep bass, giving a more realistic deeper embodied sound of vocals - are parts of the picture.

In an effort to rescue this thread and bringing it back to topic - any experiences to share with the Lambda versions of the Atlas, i.e. the Atlas Lambda and Lambda SL?

Considering moving back to a Lyra with the Atlas after some early experimentation years ago with Argo (i), Delos, Linn Kandid. 

I have not heard the Lambda versions of the Atlas (or other Lambda versions of the Lyra models). What I know, is that the standard Atlas that I got from Lyra in 2018, after an accident with the 2013 model I had before, sounds great, and works perfect, with zero problems so far. Just keep the stylus and records clean. Expensive? Yes, but for a daily joy for many years, it becomes worth it.

I took delivery of a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL about a week ago. I have about 35 hrs on it now (I can’t be dragged away from it….LOL). I waited five months from the time I ordered.

I am using this with a Clearaudio Ovation and Universal arm, with a Naim Superline/SupercapDR phonostage into a Naim 252/SCDR/300DR with Dynaudio Confidence C2 Platinum speakers and a pair of REL S/510. 

At the moment I am tracking it at 1.65 gr, and I have been tossing back and forth between 453Ω and 470Ω for loading. I think anything much less than 453 will be dull and 500+ might be too lively (560 has been recommended to try). I mostly listen to jazz and classical and I tend to like 470Ω better so far for most jazz, but some classical sound better at 453Ω. I think the latter because some classical (especially late-70s and later DGs) were mastered too bright. Karajan’s awful influence maybe. 

I’ll think I’ll start adjusting VTF a little and see what that does, but at the moment I can live with it all the way it is. 

This cartridge is truly delicious and very special. I was using a Dynavector XV-1s before. The Lyra has everything good it had but takes everything to a new level of nirvana. What an amazing accomplishment.

@dwette , I ordered mine about 5 months ago and still do not have it. If you hang on I'll give you my impression because I am sure I will get it shortly as they make their models in short runs.

You want the top of the cartridge body exactly coplanar with the record surface. The best way to do this is with the Wally Reference tool. Use the loading Lyra suggests or even better get a current mode phono stage.  

You have an excellent turntable. It needs to be on an isolation platform like a MInusK (the best). If you do not have one already you should get a reflex clamp like the one Sota makes. Michell also makes one.  

@mijostyn Thanks for the suggestions, but they have all been addressed. I have already adjusted azimuth, using an acrylic gauge and confirmed with my Fozgometer (which should always be run with a fresh battery for accurate results). Lyra suggests setting loading by listening with ear: they don’t specify a value for it, because that varies with tonearm cable and phonostage used. In any case, my Naim Superline phonostage is quite up to the task of what this catridge has to offer.

My turntable is on an isoAcoustics Delos, and I use both an HRS 850gr clamp and Clearaudio’s 1500 gr outer limit ring.

I’ve got it all covered, thanks. I’ve been around the block a few times. :)

@dwette , Great. One comment. The only thing record weights do is wear out your bearing faster. Add the weight of the peripheral clamp and you increase the wear rate even more. The good reflex clamps obviate the need for a peripheral clamp and do a better job of flattening the record. They are used by SME, Kuzma, Dohmann and others. The only thing better is vacuum clamping. 

@mijostyn

Thank you for your feedback, You might want to read up on my turntable a bit more before getting too critical of how I use it. I might look dumb but I do kind of know what I’m doing. LOL

You are wrong about the risk of bearing wear regarding this TT and how I use it. The Clearaudio Ovation has a ceramic-magnetic bearing, and is designed to accommodate the weight of the clamp and outer ring with no consequence on wear, because the platter floats magnetically on the bearing spindle, making no contact at all from the top. It would take far more force to make the platter bottom out on the top of the ceramic bearing than the 2350 gr I am adding. In fact, Clearaudio makes a clamp of about the same mass, and the outer limit ring I use is theirs, and approved for use with my turntable. My use case is all within their design spec.

I am aware of reflex clamps and vacuum clamping, but I am good to go with what I have. I’ve used it that way happily for years. The clamp and ring I have do an excellent job keeping my records flat and coupled to the POM platter. I see no reason to make any changes in that regard.

@dwette A very encouraging complimentary write up, on the early usage of the 'LAL-SL'.

I can only see the smile increasing and the enthusiasm topping out, as you go over the 100ish Hour of usage marker.

Happy Listening   

@pindac Thank you. Trust me, the grin is very much ear to ear at the moment. I am closing in on 50 hrs. and I think it has already opened up and shown what it is capable of. That jives with what a friend who knows this cartridge (non-SL) and the mono version tells me (he uses both to evaluate test pressings professionally).

Interestingly, I also upgraded my subs from a pair of REL R-328 to a pair of S/510 earlier this month, and as they break in more I am enjoying the music that much more.

A system I am extremely familiar has been demonstrated to me within the past week with a New Floor Standing Cabinet Speaker in use, or not in use🤔, the only way the Speaker could be identified with was from Sound and Visual, the Speaker Cabinet impact on a SQ, is something I am sensitive to. These Speakers Cabinets have no effect to what my ears perceived.

The Vinyl Chain due to these speakers is one I am unfamiliar with, and I still scratching my head about the demonstration, it has made such a good impression.

It certainly has reinforced a view I have carried for a long time, being every thing up stream of the Speaker is processing a electric signal, it is from the exit of the  Speaker Xover that the Sound is produced, and it is the Sound that we listeners Judge and Assess by.

Looks like the different Sub's fit into this theory/fact. 

@dwette , You are correct. I forgot about Clearaudio's magnetic bearing. However, even though you are happy with what you have, record weights and peripheral clamps do not do an adequate job of flattening a wayward record. The other problem with peripheral clamps is that they are large, heavy and in very close proximity to a tiny, very fragile, expensive and very open cantilever. You will not be the first person to knock their cantilever off with a peripheral clamp. The Michell Clamp is relatively inexpensive, try it. If you don't like it I'll buy it from you for whatever you paid. You can use the peripheral clamp for a frisbee :-)

@mijostyn Thanks for the suggestions, but I’ll pass on trying a different clamp. I’ve used what I have for years and it suites me well enough. It doesn’t have to be 100% effective or the best solution. 

Just a small update. My Atlas 2018 is still working well. No problems. I know I should wash my LPs but dry cleaning with the Mobile fidelity brush works ok for most of them, not much clicks or mistracking. Maybe it sounds a bit better with a bit of fluid in the SME V damping chamber - not  sure, testing. Platter mats - no. Extra damping on the  arm - no. Fozgometer azimuth adjustment, yes. 

Dwette, you actually think you hear a difference between 453 and 470 ohms loading? I am either impressed with your auditory acuity or dubious. Or wondering about your phono stage.

@lewm yes, I am hearing differences. The 453Ω load doesn’t have the dynamics and treble extension of the 470Ω. I’ve actually abandoned the 453Ω load and am comparing 470Ω and 500Ω now. For sure, they are very close. For jazz and rock close enough to be a toss up. However, on classical there are differences in midrange texture, dynamics and treble extension. 470Ω is a bit warmer, and I might like that better for classical, but 500Ω is a tad more dynamic, and has slightly better ability to resolve inner details. In the end I’ll go with I like better for classical music.

I have a Naim Superline phono stage with the optional Supercap DR PSU and HiLine DIN IC cable.

The reason I care about evaluating this is that once I have landed on the resistive value I like, Chris West at AV Options will build me a custom loading plug, based on a Naim Airplug with cryo’d z-foil resistors. It’s rather expensive so I want to get the resistive value right, as changing it after the fact isn’t cheap either.