Lyra Atlas experiences

Dear @downunder : The A90 as almost all top Ortofon models in the past  are not " expensive " as you said against other top cartridges as Lyra, Clearaudio, Air Tigth and the like.

This is the first time that I read a compliant in the treplicant Ortofon stylus tip regarding its playing time that you said " only " 1000 hours vs 3K hours against Lyra.

I own and owned Ortofon cartridges with replicant and non-replicant stylus tip shapes and never gave me any trouble, maybe because not over 1K hours but if I remember a scientific research by Ortofn people found out that over 500 hours the quality level performance of any cartridge ( Ortofon or non-Ortofon. ) begin  to fall down due to the playing hours where stylus tip starts to shows signs of that terrible and hard cartridge job over the LP grooves. If we want to mantain the " same " quality level performance on top cartridges I think that between 500-750 but no more than 1K hours needs for a a retipp.
Problem is that because we are listen it day by day we really don't take in count that lower and lower quality performance levels but exist that way.

Now, the 100th anniversary is a total Ortofon departure in their cartridge designs because for the very first time they use diamond as cantilever build material when Ortofon never showed to use more " sophisticated and expensive " cartridge materials but more focus in its design and excecution very high quality to that cartridge design.


Please do it me a favor and buy one an after 500 hours I will buy it from you. That cartridge is a must to have.

Btw, the Atlas SL has more "  pure and forgiven " sound because it has lower output that means less coild wire.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @tommyboy65 : I started to own LYra cartridge from the Evolve model passing for almost all models and as I said in that post I heard the Atlas too.

problem is not the Atlas, .poblem is that all tube I/O model.

Yes the Lyra and the specific Atlas " is terrific " performer even that you listen it through tubes that's the wrong electronics ( and yes, I owned and listened top tube electronics including the OP model and that's why I said what I said it. First hand experiences. ) to any LOMC cartridge. Tha's all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @o_holter  @whatthe  @karl_desch : Masybe this is the best time to  buy a totally new LOMC cartridge ( o_holter, your Atlas has 1.k hours. ) that I have no doubt can set as a new reference or at least the more serious challenges to all other top today cartridges:

https://www.ortofon.com/mc-century-p-863?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HiFi%20NL%20May%202018&am...


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @o_holter: Because I owned/own or listen in other audio systems I already heard almost all the Lyra cartridges included that.

Years ago I was convinced that the SME V was a good mate with Lyra's but latter on my mind changed. So, my first advise could be a diferent tonearm /better mate tonearm.

In the other side I think your system has too many tubes where the Atlas can't really shines. I know very well your 3 tube items and the I/O is the one that makes more " damage " to the critical phono cartridge signal.

Your system has " land " to improve but each one of us have a diferent opinion how to improve it and you can confirm it when other gentlemans give their opinions.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : You are rigth, for AS test records does not works never did and people still use it because their high ignorance level.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @stringreen : """  I always set my vtf to the manufacuter's recommendation. They designed the cartridge and know what is best for it. I don't care at all how the cartridge does with test records... """

You are absolutely right. The manufacture VTF range is to achieve at least two main targets: coils centered and a range to preserve cartridge suspension. The cartridge was tunned/voiced inside that VTF range.

Ignorance level is always the name of the audio game.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @drastic : """  on rare occasions and only with a "hot" recording of piano, I'll hear breakup in the left channel,   """

Maybe the hardest high recorded velocity LP grooves to track ( other that the Telarc 1812 bass range. ) are above mid range ( usually well above that. ) frequency range and especially on high velocities in a piano recording.

You own a great audio system and I'm sure that the TT/cartridge/tonearm is just on target as is its relationsship in between.

My experiences on similar phenomenon with diferent cartridges comes because a mistracking ( not set up. ). This " mistracking " could comes from a not very good cartridge/tonearm match ( that with you seems to me is ok in this regards. ) or because those recorded high veloties are over the self cartridge abilities and in this case there is nothing to do about other than test same tracks with a diferent tonearm.

All cartridges has tracking abilities limits and maybe that's what's happening in your Atlas sample.

Now, with those high velocity recording LP grooves is a must that the cartridge stylus tip not only stay in good shape but absolutely in clean/pristine condition and obviously that the cartridge suspension been in optimal operation conditions.

You said: "" on rare occasions "" , question here can be: always with the same piano LP tracks?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : Well, you posted in your thread:

"""  What are the best phono preamp and system matches. Should the system be rearranged. Have anyone done mods or DIYs to their systems to get the "reception" right? """

I said that you have " too many tubes " where the delicate low output cartridge signal must pass on. This delicate and extremely sensitive low output cartridge signal is degraded very easy and one form of that degradation ( exist several others. ) is the high noise in any all tube phono stage ( against any SS design. ) like the I/O that I listened at least 3 times ( the four chasis one unit. ), but not only that tube inherent noise levels but the too many stages where the cartridge signal pass inside the I/O where at each stage exist degradation.

I'm not arguing if you like it or not because you already said it: you like it and this does not means is the right electronic item for LOMC cartridges because it's not. As a fact there is no perfect item in analogue audio. In the other side that's the kind of distortions you are accustom too, each person is accustomed to diferent kind of distortions.

I posted that the Atlas can shows at its best with no tubes at all or at least with no so many.


"""  but the idea that the Io would "damage" the signal is foreign to me. """

with all respect: all phono stages damage the cartridge signal no matters its design technologies. Main subject is which ones contributes to make less harm to the cartridge signal. Please remember that any single degradation to that music signal means losted music information that we can't recovery and in the other side means added distortions. Such is the " audio analogue life ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : SS top designs improved a lot over the 60-70’s old times. Yes, the Atlat can listen it best in a pure top SS design and yes it is better that what you heard.

The real challenge is to find out that audio system supported by top SS electronics.
@o_holter , the worst place to use tube electronic design is on pure active all tube Phono stage. For LOMC cartridges best match are SS bipolars, not even FETs can do it better.

Anyway, just a personal opinion and I don't want to follow argue in this new thread " window " that I think needs its own thread to discuss.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : """   but this is not the point in this debate, """"

of course it's not and I did not posted about because of that but only because that Atlas deserve the better, it has to be surrounded by premium items in the analog rig and PS is part of it as tonearm and the like. Tha's all.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear atmasphere: I'm talking of full tube active high gain designs. I don't care in the same unit how performs against the aux input. I'm comparing against a well SS top designed unit.

You have to defend what you have on sale and is your business.


"""  the solid state signature so far has been the most annoying. """"

with all respect your statement makes me think you still lives in the " stone era " because with well SS designed units it's totally untrue what you stated.

I live in México city and in one of my trips to USA we had a test in a prety decent audio system where by coincidence the electronics came from from you.
We were there 4-5 gentlemans that knowed ( other than the system owner. ) extremely well that audio system with LP tracks all knowed as their finger of their hands ( all of then tube lovers. ) and when we made it a change of unit in the Phonolinepreamp system link for a SS unit ( was the only change. ) they did not have to wait 3-4 LP tracks but from the very first one its opinion was unanimous: that SS unit outperforms yours by a very wide margin.

Btw, months latter the owner of that system bougth a SS unit in that system link and is what he has today. No more tubes in that system link.

I don't care if you still live in the " arcaic times ". Life changes every single day, everything is in movement and audio too and SS technology designs grow up a lot and you did not know this fact and obviously you don't know even today. As I said I don't care.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : "  I am willing to sacrifice a few db in the noise floor to get superior tube performance. "

with all respect that is a plain misunderstood. Exist no superior tube performance but additioal distortions, that's what you have it does not matters tht that's what you like because that's not the main subject.

It's not only about higher noise, look: the input cartridge signal travel inside your unit or a SS unit. In your unit exist at least 5-6 circuit stages where the signal must pass and at each circuit stage that signal is degraded ( we can't do nothing about, no one can stop the signal degradation. ) in a well designed SS Phonolinepreamp ou can do the same in no more than 3 stages ( all depend in the designer abilities. ), so te signal degradation is a lot lower and that's why I said that what you like is only those additional distortions ( not only higher noise levels. ).

Tubes are not for an active high gain phono stage ( as a fact is not for today demanding audio. ), no one can defend what has no defense. Forgeret what the " experts " said and say, I live for years with tubes till I fall in count that all what those " tube experts " try to sale or to educate  was totally untrue.

What road takes a phono stage designer, in reality two roads: hybrid designs or SUT as a pasive gain. In the first alternative the rough/hardest phono stage cartridge signal path is made it by the first SS stage in that hybrid design: with out this gain stage there is no phono stage at all and the same is true in those designs  that use SUTs as the high gain stage. Is that high gain stage what puts the unit signature that tubes degraded in higher levels than same SS circuits.

For years the " tube experts/reviewers " try to sale us their arcaic " ideas " with out take not that the audio world already change it for the better and not because tubes but even with tubes there are great and better SS alternatives. As a music lovers and audiophiles we have to grow up and enjoy our today times that are bettter than ever before. Tubes is not the answer is the today wrong answer.

No one has to feeel " bad " for those facts because that's the reality.

There are several examples around and subwoofers is a good one. You have to ask your self: why does not exist powered subwoofers using an external tube amps?, because it can't handle with the rigthness and aplomb only SS can and that's all and this means: tight low bass, with full feeled power and no overhang, taut bass, precise and well defined note by note, efortless feeling, uncolored sound, etc.

Anyway, I'm not against tubes ( as I said I live with and heard in my system several touted tube designs as the Audio Note  Kondo and the like. ), things are that I learned.

I'm not trying to diminish any tube audiophile system, no this is not my attitude.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Btw, I never was an Audio Note owner. I had in my system for almost a month the Ongaku ( over 100K. ) because the M´+exico distributor of this and other audio items was a close friend of mine as were other audio México dealers whom marketed: AR, C-J, Manley, Air Tigth and other very well regarded tube electronics.

I can say for sure that I know very well tube electronics " restrictions/limitations " that can't honor what MUSIC deserves.

To understand what MUSIC deserves we have to take in count two things:

how and which kind of sounds we have in a live music performance. Example in a concert music hall exist no adjectives used and touted by tube lovers as: softness, non agresive, non annoying, full soundstage and the like.
You can have that kind of quality sound if you are seated at 50 m. from the stage source, but this is not MUSIC. When we are seated at a few m. the MUSIC has a natural agresiveness, power, definition, precision and rigthness. Sometimes stridency.
Any piano player knows this and try to listen a trumpet player at normal levels seated at say 2-3 m. and you will undrstand what I mean.

the other thing is that what we have in the LP recordings was captured/pick-up for microphones even nearer to the source as we can't do it in a hall, sometimes very near field as in almost all the Three Blind Mice Recordings.

Only top well designed SS electronics can gives us the " reality " tubes only can gives you what you are accustom to that has nothing to do with that live MUSIC characteristics.

R.

Dear @stringreen : I know exactly what you mean. Subject is that some us are accustomed to a false model of kind of sound that is not close to what MUSIC sounds. 
This is the real problem. We can read in this and other forums recomendations like:
""" trust in what you like  "  trust in your ears " , but no one recomend to think how live MUSIC sounds at nearfield position and if we never had this experience it's useless to discuss/argue about.

Any one can go where are piano for sale  and play one key ( at real level. ) and hear it how it sounds and will understand the whole subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter : What we/you like has nothing to do on what is wrong or right.

With all respect, please try not only to read what I stated in my last two-three posts but understand word by word what is posted there.

I'm talking not what I like or you like but what is the MUSIC live sound ( how it sounds at " nearfield " distance ( not at over 30-40 m. ) and how microphones pick up the MUSIC information in a recording session ( that sometimes are placed at  1.5 m. ).

Now if you think that tubes sounds the same as that then good for you but I can tell you that tubes can't honor those MUSIC circunstances/scenarios where the SS are closer to it.

Any instrument music player knows very well what I'm refereing on how live MUSIC sounds.

The main subject is not to convince you or who is right or wrong but how things are. Again what you or me like it is not important but what is the MUSIC and how we percieve it in a live event at nerafield position.

In the other side, please let me know what sound characteristics are the ones that you love in your audio system listening sessions. Can you?, thank's in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @o_holter and friends: IMHO, the main subject of what some of us are posting here about MUSIC sounds is the more critical and important subject for any considerated music lover and real audiophiles.

Here I'm not discussing about audio system per se or trying to diminsh any one system but only try to understand ( for me too. ) what is our day by day reality. I want to repeat that I'm not against tubes but in favor of MUSIC and our home analog experiences.

I can be wrong and as a fact if I'm I want to know ( do you too? ), so any one opinion in this " free " audio world is welcomed.

Exist several audio subjects where all of us have diferent levels of misunderstood and this include audio item manufacturers and pro-reviewers as audio distributors.

Examples: when some one ask for a tube phono stage we can read answers ( through the threads. ) like this: " Herron " and the Herron owners or advocates to hybrids designs as the Herron things on it as a tube unit when it's not. Those hybrid units use tubes too but the whole unit signature comes from that FET input gain that puts easily 70%+ of that unit signature. After this gain stage the best we can do ( the manufacturer/designer ) is try to do the less harm to that cartridge signal and through tubes or SS stages that input signal is degraded some way or the other and tubes makes a higher degradation. So tube phono stages are only the full and all tubes designs.

Now, one of the main targets in any phono stage design and independent if is SS;tube or hybrid the used devices in the input gain stage and the follower stages must be matched with the kind of cartridge " motor " that phono stage is dedicated: for LOMC or MM, both electrically needs are diferent and for what exist in the active parts market we have bipolars, tubes or FETs.
Well LOMC demands for the bipolars and MM for FETs.

Only a few top SS use bipolars for LOMC cartridges and many comes with FETs ( that sound good but not at the same level that bipolars designs. Yes, we can her the differences. ) and all hybrids with FETs.
Question is: why FETs with MC instead bipolars?, because is way/a lot more easy the design with FETs than bipolars ( and tubes even more easy. ) where for example: we have to used matched bipolars and take care in extreme the way we make the polarization of those bipolar devices that with FETs we have to do nothing about we don't have to " worried " during the unit design. It's more complex of what I'm explain here.

Where learn I all those ( and many other things. )?. Many years ago when my friend and I decided to build a Phonolinepreamp for my audio system. A unit that was voiced for almost two years with different active devices and design topologies and was in those times when surge my Phonolinepreamp that with out ask one Agoner told me if we can build one for him and I say no but after a second email we accepted and other than me he was the first music lover and audiophile we share our unit and after that other six lucky gentlemans like this ( no, I don't sale nothing and don't build it anymore. Maybe some day, who knows.):

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1253

and read what this gentleman posted in other thread a few days ago:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-platter-mat-especially-for-dd-turntables/post?postid=135... 

Look my Phonolinepreamp has two totally separated dual mono phono stages: one MC dedicated with bipolars devices and the MM with FETs, both diferent designs and additional comes with integrated dual mono line stage and with a " perfect " RIAA eq.. NO, I'm not promoting nothing, all are examples of where are the foundation of what I post.


For music lovers and true audiophiles I think that we must to have a " simple " excercise:

attend for at least 2-3 weeks to 5-6 music live events ( mainly with acoustic instruments and voice is important too. Near field seated position.  ), play personally any acoustic instrument key or keys at real SPL and listen very very carefully on: music transients, instrument attaks, power, rythm, dynamics, overall tonal balance, top to bottom " colorations ", that natural music agresiveness and the natural distortion levels.

From there return to our audio system ( during the live tests time we don't listen our system. ) to evaluate how close or away is our system from the live experiences and what to do what to change or how fine tune the system for we can be closer than where today we are and this " fine tune " is almost endless and main system target. 
One main " parameter " for the excercise has success is that we must forgeret of all what we " learned " about tubes or about SS electronics and that we don't try that our fine tune goes and that sounds as what we are accustomed for years. NO, this excercise is to close a window and open a NEW ONE for the better.
That's what I did it when where in the long process to build my Phonolinepreamp, I was not thinking in all my tube experiences but neither with SS units, I was thinking only in how live MUSIC sounds.

The only thing I can say is that's worth repeat worth the effort with big rewards in favor of what we like: ENJOY MUSIC at the very top quality level.

Yes, we have to make a plan how to do it and have an audio system proved whole evaluation process.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear bpolleti: Are you seriously?, I took Herron as an example and with all respect to you: if you can't hear a difference between a MC circuit with a gain input FET stage and other with out it then something is wrong down there:

- low system resolution,
- analog rig not up to the task,
- non adequated and full proved evaluation whole system test process,
- non educated ears or not know what to look for.

Btw, the higher ( against SS designs. )  output impedance on tube units or hybrids like your Herron gives a higher degradation to the signal that goes to the external line stage and if this is a tube unit then same happens when the signal goes out to the amps.

bpolleti, the Herron in not here under scrutiny ( I'm not criticize the Herron. ), main subject is way different. Stay calm and try to understand the main overall subject.

Just curiosity because tha's not the subject here and could be useless: how do you made the precise two diferent stages evaluation to say both performs the same?. Again, just curiosity and you can email me about if don't want it here and don't want to open another discussion " window ".

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear bpolleti: In the very first page of Herron site of the  model you own you can read this:

"""  "The Herron VTPH-2 gives listeners all the benefits of a tube unit with few of the failings and a text-book technical performance to boot. It offers a level of vacuum-tube engineering (carefully combined with solid-state circuitry) that's rare at any price, unheard of at this one." 
- Roy Gregory hifi+ issue 58  """

the input gain stage ( where the cartridge signal is " touched " for the very first time in the Herron. ) is a FET  ( SS ) gain cicuit and from there amplified signal goes to all the tubes on the Herron design.

In that same Herron site page you can read this:

"""  Tube complement(2 x 12AX7, 3 x 12AT7) - most popular, or
(4 x 12AX7, 1 x 12AT7)Gain MC Mode(2 X 12AX7, 3 X 12AT7) 64 dB 
(4 X 12AX7, 1 X 12AT7) 69 dBGain MM Mode(2 X 12AX7, 3 X 12AT7) 43 dB 
(4 X 12AX7, 1 X 12AT7) 48 dB   """

Enough.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

As I said, enough it's futile to go on with.

No, I'm not always right and I posted here about but some gentlemans like you just read but not really read and that's why your total misunderstood on the main subject.

R.

@bpoletti : Read this post, this gentleman owns the same PS as you. Check the date he posted and the first sentences about:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mc-cartridge-loading/post?postid=1353089#1353089


R.

Dear @whatthe : Please email me here: rauliruegas@hotmail.com

Appreciated,
R.

Dear @downunder :  """  I am now a believer in tangential tracking tonearms.  """

well, your tonearm is a pivoted design that tracks tangentially and this is not the same as all linear tracking designs we all now as " linear trackers ".

Been pivoted is a great advantage an additional advantage to its tangential tracking. Very good design!. Congratulations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

PS: if you can please email me: rauliruegas@hotmail.com 

Dear @downunder :  ""  you can hear the difference in clarity and purity of the lower % tracking error. ""

there is no doubt about because lower tracking error means at least two things: lower distortions and higher music information.

As always and your tonearm included the name in the tonearm/cartridge set up is accuracy behind that set up. The differences we can hear between Baerwald and Löfgren B are not because one alignment been superior to the other but because differences, minute differences, on each alignment set up.

I can remember when appeared the MINT LP protractor where every single gentleman that use it was and is totally satisfied and where all of them heard more or les what you stated and why is that: because the MINT LP is really outstanding?, no because for the almost very first time some one took in count tne meaning of ACCURACY. It's a bargain of protractor ( I think around 150.00 ) an unbeatable till today, it's dedicated protractor for the TT/tonearm/cartridge of the owner. We don't need nothing else.

But your tonearm is in a different league and my " hat off " for the manufacturer.

In the other side you are not hearing only the improvement of the tangential tracking in your tonearm but its overall construction and blend material building, bearing and many other things. Good.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

@downunder : That has a name: tonearm true engeenering !!!!!

R.