LSA Voyager GAN Amplifier

@jerryg123 Thanks, much appreciated, but no real need. When the Voyager and the GAN400 first hit the market, there was some scuttlebutt that the componentry inside the two units was essentially the same, but housed in very different cases. While having the same reservations as most about ASF, the photos they provided of the inside of the Voyager were interesting, and I was just curious whether (a) the scuttlebutt was true, and (b) there was a better layout inside the Peachtree.

Very interesting what you say about the new Bel Canto. Just curious, did you ever consider a Benchmark?

Ralph,

You know very well we are talking about electronics here......of course, certain measurements of speakers are very important. 

For electronics.....preamps...amps....DACs.....and for all passive components,, tweaking and execution (like damping and shielding and grounding, etc.).....please show me the double blind listening test results.....come on.....do it.....you cannot....because it has never been done.  The only double blind tests that were ever done showed that people cannot hear anything in a double blind test........so show me the results of phase shift of an amp....or .001 versus .1 percent distortion.....or more second harmonic distortion and less upper harmonics or anything for that matter....It has never been done.  With electronics, passive components and execution.......there has never been a double blind test done......please show me....make me wrong.  I am sure you will find a doulble blind test that was inconclusive.......but actually shows something?.........come on.....no talk now......lets see the tests.

I never said that numbers and science and engineering do not matter........but that measured distortion numbers and signal to noise, etc.....have any correlation to sound?......show me.  show me the test results that prove it.

What is so funny is that these "science is truth" people have no truth.   There are no double blind linstening tests that confirm one measurement is better than another.

These statements are false as are some of the apocryphal claims that followed them in the same post. Dr. Earl Geddes used double blind testing to show that off axis response and total room energy were extremely valuable for a speaker to be considered musical- and thus backing the measurements. Again, the important thing here is that if you cannot correlate the measurement with the apparent listening experience, you are measuring the wrong thing.

When someone claims numbers, science, engineering, etc., doesn’t matter, that it’s a scam, a religion, all faith, especially someone whose livelihood is dependent on denying anything that might give evidence of the veracity of his claims, it is an obvious and clear fraud.

+1 Exactly! Yet oddly, those same people will take a ride on an airplane, use electric lighting, the Internet and a host of other technologies all in a single day, and all that only exist entirely due to science and engineering.

I have a mini GaN amp as well,  Originally bought it for HT in the main system as the speakers are a difficult load (Thiel 3.7s).  Broke it in using a secondary system (B&W P6s) and it is not in another spare system (basically a guest bedroom) driving GR Research N3s (fed via a Marantz 5010 receiver).  I picked it up when it was $699.  I did a review of it here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178455.msg1877185#msg1877185

There is no trophy in audio because none of these fake scientists have ever performed a test that has any meaning. It is really a belief system based on wiggles on a scope and numbers....all signifying nothing. It is a lie....plain and simple. I would not go so far to state that these people are all lying for they are just converts of this religion and believe it to be the truth. However, there is not one test that I have ever seen that correlates measurements with sound......none.....please show me one.

The Age of Enlightenment called. They want their Scientific Method back....

Yes, it’s a belief system based on science. It’s what’s gotten us out of caves and to the moon. What is your belief system based on? Your business model is "Trust me"- it’s a cash faith based religion which preaches results that can't be measured, verified, or explained by any rational means.

Engineering is indeed based on numbers. No one with any serious knowledge of science would deny the importance of math, physics, and rigorous testing/analysis to determine the performance of any engineered product, from bridges, airplanes, spacecraft, to audio. None of these audio products would exists without designers thoroughly familiar with the science behind their products. This should go without saying and I think any intelligent person understand this.

When someone claims numbers, science, engineering, etc., doesn’t matter, that it’s a scam, a religion, all faith, especially someone whose livelihood is dependent on denying anything that might give evidence of the veracity of his claims, it is an obvious and clear fraud.

There have been innumerable studies which verify the link between numbers and audible performance. Most people know this. You can measure the distortion from your tweaked out transistor radio and compare it to the distortion of a modern system and it’s rather obvious.

No, there is no accounting for personal taste. Some like distortion of a certain variety. That has been proven time and again. Others don’t. But I think everyone agrees that fraud, deceit, and making unsubstantiated claims to bilk people out of their money is bad.

A bit off topic but I have a question about NAD m33 and Purifi.

Specs indicate same power into 4 ohms as 8 as I recall. Not sure what to make of that?  I could see where that was a factor in the results I heard with the small Totem monitors.

Whereas Icepower with a good power supply like BC ref1000m indicate power doubling mostly into 4 ohms along with significant current delivery capability. Both seem to indicate high damping.

THe ref1000m amps have been an ideal mate for my larger Ohm Walsh speakers in particular. I attribute that to some degree to the power doubling into 4 ohms, high damping and significant current delivery. Would not want to lose that.

@kuribo So what do you recommend?

I prefer and recommend an amplifier designed and tested to add as little to the signal as possible

Where things head south is when one merely trusts.  Lots of folks out there who want your money.  Gotta be careful.  Verify!

Exactly! But the audio religion peddlers just want blind faith.

Who are you to stand in judgment of anything?

You seem to have an AX to grind with Wally and LSA.

I have just as much right to post an opinion as anyone else. I have no axe to grind with Wally and LSA, I am simply pointing out the less than optimal implementation and resultant load dependency of the amp's frequency response. Funny that someone should take a simple fact personally.

As I mentioned, this load dependency means the amp sounds different with different speakers, and even with the same speaker with a widely variable impedance. This can't be fixed with changing the topology of the amp's feedback circuitry. You can change speaker binding posts, add wood or springs under it, or sprinkle it with the tweakie scam of the day but that won't fix this deficiency. Maybe with some speakers, some will like the added distortion. To each his own.

I prefer and recommend an amplifier designed and tested to add as little to the signal as possible. That way you have a flat response to start with and can then toss your money to scammers who will add some distortion for you. Maybe you think it sounds better that way with a coating of kitty litter or what ever you are willing to believe will take it to 11 without anything other than confirmation bias or blind faith.

I would love to just stick something like a NAD m33 in my system and be done. I need to go back when I have more time and kick the tires on that one some more. Have heard mostly Icepower not Purifi to-date so not sure what to expect regarding differences in sound.

GaN is one, but more to an amp than only that.    Need to hear them to properly assess.   Have not heard yet, but on the lookout.   THe Class D amps I have had for a number of years now still bang my drum so not as motivated to jump as I might be.   With new technology, waiting a bit for new advancements to take hold usually pays dividends in terms of value.

@mapman 

I have similar sentiments, however I've not actually had any Class D.  I've been watching recent developments for perhaps a year or more and am in waiting mode.  I'm in no hurry at all, but will "jump" when I assess things (could be a tricky exercise) as stabilizing.

Forums such as this are valuable in the information discovery process.

I enjoy the quote by Mr Reagan.  Some common sense to hang on to.

I run BEl Canto ref1000m amps in my setup for a number of years now. THey’ve been pretty much the bees knees of amplifiers for me to-date. Also a BC c5i which is lower power but newer Class D Icepower board I think. THe two sound much different. I attribute at least some of that to the ARC tube pre-amp I run with the ref1000ms versus C5i all digital integrated amp. Also c5i has SPL limits whereas ref1000ms never break a sweat. See system pics. I am a big Bel Canto fan for great sound in a compact package and always looking for what they come up with next.

That is the key @mapman at the asking price. I enjoy it but not as much as the 501, but is better than my Orchard MB. 

I will say the New Bel Canto ref501s is the kit in my house. Open, detailed, articulate fast responsive bass. Huge step up from the old Bel Canto Ref500s.

@jerryg123 I am also very interested in hearing and learning more about the miniGan. Seems like a winner for the asking price.  I'm expecting many more like it in the near future.  

I have the Mini GaN 5 if you want I can pop the cover and post a pick. If you want @twoleftears. 

I got a small sampling of a nad m33 with the latest Purifi technology the other week running a pair of smaller Totem monitors I am not specifically familiar with in a showroom. Did not have time to assess exactly what I was listening to (room correction in play?) but I came out thinking that was certainly different. Insufficient time and access to say if it was good, bad, or better than what I am used to . Definitely was different and very unique. Very midrange-y I’d say for whatever reason.  Not the Totem sound I have heard in general over the years.  I'm sure some things could have been done to tweak that setup, but an interesting listen nonetheless.

Has anyone seen a photo of the Peachtre GAN400 with the cover off?  The componentry is supposed to be quite similar to the Voyager, and I'd be really interested to compare pics of the insides of both, side by side.

I am always on the lookout for new developments relating to Class D amps.   GaN is one, but more to an amp than only that.    Need to hear them to properly assess.   Have not heard yet, but on the lookout.   THe Class D amps I have had for a number of years now still bang my drum so not as motivated to jump as I might be.   With new technology, waiting a bit for new advancements to take hold usually pays dividends in terms of value.

So what if someone likes certain amps or designers?  It's an opinion.   Just accept it and move on.  No need to demonize.  Some people come across a bit stronger than others.   SO what?  Speak your mind and move on.  No need to squabble.   Does not look good for anyone.

Who are you to stand in judgment of anything?

You seem to have an AX to grind with Wally and LSA.

@kuribo Looking at your history of posts all you do is blast amplifier builders for not building their Class D amps with Purfi (and I think the NAD stuff sound atrocious and I have owned them) and you have blasted every GaN amplifier with the exception of Leo and his Orchard so if Bruno Putzeys or Leo are not the developer it is garbage?

Like I said looking through all 134 of your posts you are a polluter and just sling mud.

You truly are a troll and bring nothing to the table.

The famous and insightful 1980's audiophile Ronald Reagan got it right:  Trust but verify.   Verifying is the tricky part.     You can take an already good sounding system, a prime candidate for some "tweak" to try and make it even better,  do nothing, and it will still sound good, probably even different to the user each time it is listened to.  Can be many factors at play including changes in weather and physiology day to day.   Not to mention mindset.  No mind, no sound.   Some will have more concrete standards to verify than others, like a clear explanation of how something works that makes sense.  Then the value proposition comes into play.  Hardcore audiophiles like Mr. TBV:   R. Reagan might perceive great value with very minor changes, and be inclined to spend more money for it.  YMMV.  It is what it is.   Where things head south is when one merely trusts.  Lots of folks out there who want your money.  Gotta be careful.  Verify!

What is so funny is that these "science is truth" people have no truth.   There are no double blind linstening tests that confirm one measurement is better than another.  We all know that in drag racing the fastest car gets the trophy.  There is no trophy in audio because none of these fake scientists have ever performed a test that has any meaning.  It is really a belief system based on wiggles on a scope and numbers....all signifying nothing.  It is a lie....plain and simple.  I would not go so far to state that these people are all lying for they are just converts of this religion and believe it to be the truth.  However, there is not one test that I have ever seen that correlates measurements with sound......none.....please show me one.  The guy at ASR believes that if a preamp/DAC/amp has a certain number then it is "transparent" and that an even better number is not needed.  He has no idea what he is talking about since he never listens to anything.  It is just his guess.  If you think your guess is truth......and you know its a guess.....then you are promoting lies......

So, you have two camps of belief.  Neither camp has any proof of anything.  What the measurement camp has is righteouness but they know deep in their hearts they have no science that proves that the numbers they worship are actually meaningfull.  The other camp has no proof that something they listen to is truly better than something else.....but, at least for each person, they have listened themselves and made up their mind which they "think" is best....based on direct experience.  Most audiophiles believe their ears......some only believe in wiggles and numbers.  Seems to me the more intelligent way to get great sound is to listen.  But, to each his own.  Which lie do you want to promote.  The lie of measurments or the lie of listening.  I prefer the lie of listening.  When I do listening tests with several people.....we all hear the same thing.....so at least its a group lie....he he.   So, which snake has the bestest oil?   The measurement snake or the listening snake?  You decide.

Have a blessed day you beautiful ones.....I hug you and squeeze your cheeks.and kiss you all with all my passion.......my sweet babies.

Another fake account


 

Sorry, the only thing fake here are the unsubstantiated claims made by those exploiting the insecurities of others for profit.

LSA Voyager GAN 350 its problem is power wire (AC DC)only 16 AWG, that design was too little to good sound, 14 AWG or above is better .


 

That's the least of this amp's problems. The basic design is subpar.

I only have my ears to go by with the help of others comments regarding using 1-3 springs, instead of the full compliment

You have no idea then whether the results are real or imagined. It's also possible that you are adding distortion which you may find pleasant. That's the issue with these tweaks based on pseudo science. Most people don't understand the underlying physics and either through confirmation bias or added distortion, they "believe" there is some real benefit.

@kuribo 

As to your questions to me: they sound like intelligent questions, but I only have my ears to go by with the help of others comments regarding using 1-3 springs, instead of the full compliment

LSA Voyager GAN 350 its problem is power wire (AC DC)only 16 AWG, that design was too little to good sound, 14 AWG or above is better .

it's our old friend --- he is back. Audio2Design, AtDavid, DanNad, etc. etc. Another fake account

db

I was pointing out that you are here just make pollution. Not actually post anything of value.

Pot, meet kettle.

Voyager 350 and I LOVE it.

Glad to hear you like it. Maybe it plays well with your speaker load or maybe you, like many others, like what it adds to the signal.

I replaced my 16 year-old defunct Parasound Halo A21 with the Voyager 350 and I LOVE it. I also own the amazing Wyred4Sound SX-1000R monoblocks. I A-B'd the W4S with the LSA, and the W4S are now in my home theater room. Both rooms win. According to my measurements, GFY. My credentials involve an MA in English Literature, fwiw..

Great comeback. It fails to address the issue at hand though, which is your ignorance of dynamic systems. It also has nothing to do with this LSA amp and it's poor implementation of the GaN tech.

But it does reveal a big of a raging putz you are.

And the fact that you do not deny it.

Have a nice evening Troll. So are you amplifierdude or andypandy or geoffkit.

I also never said I was using springs or was an LSA owner. I was pointing out that you are here just make pollution. Not actually post anything of value.

You will be banned shortly.

So you are a freaking troll from that Facebook Hate Group.

Great comeback. It fails to address the issue at hand though, which is your ignorance of dynamic systems. It also has nothing to do with this LSA amp and it's poor implementation of the GaN tech.

@kuribo please enlighten us ignorant sods. Please explain the dynamics of harmonic suspension tuning.

 

Try Google. I don't have time to post a semester long class in dynamic systems. The point is you have no clue what you are doing and if it is genuinely affecting your system or all in your head.

Pre, versus post filter, feedback in class d amps is a known source of variable frequency dependency and a second class technology. Of course it is audible- remember the words of the guru: "everything is audible". Frequency response should be independent of load and all the better state of the art implementation use post filter feedback- Orchard, Icepower, Hypex, Purifi. Do a little reading and educate yourselves to the advantages. Any amp that sounds different with different speakers is not something any serious audio person would consider state of the art simply because of GaN. It's like putting new Michelins on a Model A and calling it state of the art.

 

This is all nonsense.......ramblings from someone who has never listened to this amp. The measurements are not proof that this amp will sound different with a 4 ohm or 8 ohm speaker. Please show me the double blind listening tests that prove that. This is all conjecture from someone who believes that measurements rule and that listening tests are not needed to "know" how something sounds. Does not matter how much spin you put on this.....this is just your belief system. And this belief system is believed by very very few people who read this thread.....and the people who believe their ears and not some words from someone who does not listen will NEVER believe your belief system......and that is because they have direct experience that tells them the opposite......that cables, tweaks, fuses, footers, cables off the floor, etc. all have a different sound and that most of these things CANNOT be measured.

I have never heard of a person who believes that cables sound different....eventually "evolving"????? ...he he... to a place where they now believe all cables sound the same. NEVER will happen. Once you hear cables make a difference you cannot go back. However, lots of people who did not believe cables sound different have become "converts".....once they actually listened with an open mind and heart.

Why don’t you go onto Jay’s thread?......and tell them that his latest $10K cables are all snake oil and that cables all sound the same?......and that the Synergistic fuses he heard are all snake oil.....and that his $5K speakers stands are all snake oil.....and that the footers he heard (and that he did not like)...are all snake oil (because you cannot hear a footer under a 100lb. amp sitting on a $5K stand). , and that more perfect measuring and cheaper gear are more accurate, etc..

The reason you will not go there is that they would laugh you right off....you would feel so low you would never come back. On these cheapo threads you feel less threatened and have your buddies to do the +1 thing. The bottom line is that what you say is just your opinion. Of course, this applies to all, including what I just said. It is just that my basic opinion.(that a lot of things in audio that make the sound better cannot be measured) is shared by most everyone here........and practically no one on ASR. Such is life. Life is beautiful.....and your stereo can be made to sound more beautiful by playing with infinite things. Its fun!

Have fun......we don’t need to be so serious. No one is getting hurt by buying this really good sounding amp or having mods done to it or whatever. Chill and bliss out......it is good for you.

So, you have sonically A/Bed the Orchard and the LSA in your system using the same cords, etc.....both burned in and you think one sounds better? Or are we still talking numbers and no listening tests to back up the numbers game?

I have some Orchard monos here right now that I am modding. I will hear how they sound for myself. No one can tell me what is best.....I will know for myself. Trust your ears.....do not trust words from me or anyone else. Trust yourself....you know what you want and what you like. The truth....is what you experience.....not what you are told.

Much better amp than the LSA.

Pity they're out of stock till after Xmas.  https://orchardaudio.com/shop/ols/products/strkrmsn-str-ltr

FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know.

Due to the variability of this amp’s frequency response with load, unless two people are using the same speakers, any listening impressions, putting aside subjective differences in taste, will be meaningless as the amp will be performing differently with different speakers. Thus, trying to draw any conclusions of this amp’s performance, objective or subjective, from other user’s experiences, is fundamentally futile. As is sharing one’s super tweaks- due to load dependency, they won’t translate.

This is yesterday’s tech. If you want a state of the art class d amp, you need to look elsewhere.

What is the compliance of your springs? What frequency range are you attempting to attenuate? Are you overdamped? Underdamped? Critically damped? Do you know anything about damping harmonic motion? "it sounds better" is not evidence that you have done anything meaningful to reduce the vibrations in your components- heard of confirmation bias? It's how all these nut job tweaks and tweakers make a living fleecing people.

LOL---Machina Dynamica--

"Posted by geoffkait (M) on January 23, 2013 at 14:20:08
Machina Dynamica.
Obtain a roll of adhesive-backed copper tape, width 1/2 inch. It can be either conductive or non-conductive adhesive. Adhesive-backed copper tape is available at Amazon and eBay, Radio Shack might carry it, who knows. Cut the copper tape into 1" x 1/2" rectangles - one rectangle for every window pane or glass door in the house or apartment. Attach one copper rectangle to each glass window and glass door. The copper rectangle can be placed anywhere on the glass, upper corner or otherwise out of view is OK. Be sure and attach a copper rectangle to glass in all rooms of the house or apt."

This is the level of sophistication we are at with these tweakie scammers....

"FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know."👍

That's what I noted a couple of pages back.  It's never a good thing when someone has little or no knowledge about something but thinks they do.  There's no sense in getting into that debate. 

In addition, many moons ago, I had a Proceed AVP (when the model was current in my system).  It was easy to hook multiple digital cables from my Proceed PMDT.  I had someone hook them behind the system and didn't know the inputs used and they were also swapped periodically.  I had no knowledge of what particular cables were in what input and the person swapping had no knowledge of what I was selecting via the remote control.  I was always curious of how measurement/engineering types view digital cables.  I had a couple explaining to me that there were ones and zeroes traveling down the cable (I did my best not to laugh).  Anyway, I had a few of those over and we did listening and I asked them to pick which sounded better.  They all picked the same one and then when we compared notes between myself and the person swapping cables on paricular listening session numbers, they all wanted to dissect the preamp as there had to be hardware differences.  When I pointed out that the results already eliminated that possibility, they wouldn't accept the truth as to what they heard (I guess it was a conspiracy to them).  Moral of the story, even hearing differences, they wouldn't accept them.  So why would one argue with someone who hasn't heard something or compared it to something else?  Let alone, for the most part the facts they are basing a conclusion on are from a source of little to no value related to audio (it's pretty much like the story I got above that ones and zeroes were floating across the cable).

I also noted go start a thread on why a particular amp sucks and enjoy. I actually feel bad for them as it's kind of like the story of the emperor's new clothes.

It was refresing to see tweak1 post yesterday talking about his first hand experience with this amp. For a minute I was excited to see a 2nd post along the lines, but after reading it I checked it is the first post the user has made on a'gon...I guess here we go again...

FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know.

I bought one Voyager GAN 350 on Nov 19,  but I listened the sound was disssapointed, I told Walter what I heard , but he just told it need burn in 200 Hrs.

I cannot accept the answer,    So I had do 9 days efforts to rebuild my Voyager GAN 350, improve its power wire, speaker wire, and got a dreamming Voyager GAN 350, not muffled again, it became bright, transparent, ......., more better than "Walter tweaked LSA Voyager", and not to burn in 200 Hrs, I think My adjustment was state of the art,  and no other voyager GAN 350 will be better than my owned "Voyager". 

I am aware that some of you complained about not enough bass. Don't know if they simply used the stock soft rubber feet, which IMO sucked a lot of life out of it: well I just uncovered it, taking my Voyager to a much higher level of enjoyment by simply replacing my 6 yo old+ Machina Dynamica springs under everything prior to buying the Nobs @~ $8/4, which have 7 springs in each. And they definitely improved the sound, but I started watching this thread: 

 Nobsound springs - load range, which is very informative about the amount of weight each spring is designed to handle.  Well, late yesterday I started pulling springs out, starting with 3 springs/3 Nobs under my Oppo 105 first (decent improvement). Today I got busy, starting with my LSA Voyager GaN 350 amp (OMG!), then my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 (here I only used 2 each X 3). This leaves my Core Power 1800 PLC, which currently has 4 Machina Dynamica springs, and eventually my EP 3.4 OB speakers, a 2 person job as they are currently on Harbor Freight dollies.

I am totally amazed. I now have authoritative bass- mid bass, which gives the music significantly more drive, putting a big smile on my face listening to Lyle Lovett The Road to Ensenada CD. One of my torture test CDs is Jennifer Nettles Playing With Fire. It's on as I write this. Where many of the songs sounded thin, so far it sounds natural, like she's in the room.

hth

Another disciple of the fantasy audio religion?