@mapman @ricevs Both of you guys were correct about your interpretation of the hiss. I was wrong on that. This hiss issue is on the front of my mind so this morning I brought back up the AHB2 monos and connected it to the CODA 07x. However, this time I increased the GAIN to the max setting on the AHB2s. Low and behold hiss comes out of the Thiel speaker. Now this hiss sounds much better than from either the CODA #8 or Voyager. It is lower in volume and there is no RIGHT speaker additional noise.
So that must mean the preamp, DAC, wires, are the culprit. My money is on the preamp being a little noisy. I wish I had the Benchmark HPA4 preamp in house still so I can have a nice baseline for my system. The Topping pre90 was supposed to be that replacement but it fails with the Voyager and CODA #8.
I am going to contact CODA today to ask about my observations. There was some discussions in the past to send my unit in for service but a loose wire, fixed by me, seemed to have resolved the issues. Maybe not.
@viber6 when my babysitter comes I will listen to the section of the Classical piece you referenced with the AHB2 monos and the Voyager. I can afford 14 minutes to do this. |
I decided to goof off from work some more and try out @viber6 ’s test.
I played Concerto #3 which is 20 min long 3 times. Each time with a different amp into my RAAL SR1a headphones which draws a lot of power from an amp.
1) Benchmark AHB2 monos (lowest GAIN setting) + CODA 07x + Benchmark DAC3B + Audience FrontRow speaker cable + Benchmark 15 foot XLR from preamp to amp
2) CODA #8 + CODA 07x + BM DAC3B + Audience FrontRow speaker cable + Audience AU24SE 1 metre XLR from preamp to amp
3) Voyager + CODA 07x + Benchmark DAC3B + Audience Conductor SE speaker cable + Benchmark 15 foot XLR from preamp to amp
I do not have experience with classical music nor violins to really pick up the nuances in the performance. I also did not have the concentration to listen for the SNIFF. I have many things on my mind.
The Benchmark was the most realistic sound to me it was clear, detailed, and sharp. Sort of how I hear things. I have been to amateur orchestral performances and the AHB2 sounded like the real thing to me. Could be a little fatiguing to some people. My toes were NOT tapping that much to the music but I was not really familiar with it.
The second listen done quickly, immediately after moving the Audience FrontRow speaker wires to the CODA #8. This sound was not as sharp but pretty close. I tried it as first with the same volume on the preamp as the AHB2 test. It was of course much louder and the blue power meters on the CODA#8 were dancing. Normally when I listen to the Thiel the CODA meters do not move, so not drawing huge amounts of power at my volume level. If I crank the volume the meters would fly.
I was tapping my toes a lot this time, but I was now a little more familiar with the performance. The sound had a rounder aspect to it but with heft. I think this is what people say is a musical sound. I could listen to this for a long time without fatigue. I eventually lowered the volume to get closer to the AHB2 test level, to try and do an apple-to-apples comparison. I think the AHB2 sounded more real but the CODA #8 sounded beautiful. First world problems for me.
The Voyager was next and it was not really up to the level of the AHB2 or the CODA #8. It was not as sharp nor was as rounded. When I say rounded I keep thinking this thing is juicy (the CODA #8). Hey, I never said I was an audiophile. So these are my descriptions. The Voyager is a little flat sounding. Not so great at the moment but I have only 40 hours on it now.
I am now playing the same music on the Voyager and Thiel. It sounds better on the Thiel. It was not bad at all on the RAAL SR1a, it was that the other 2 were outstanding and I also had a $3K+ speaker cable on the other 2. The Voyager is using a more value oriented speaker cable. I hear differences in speaker cables that is why I have the FrontRow. The FrontRow does not fit the Voyager due to SpeakON terminations.
I now have enough observations to talk with CODA on the 07x hiss. For the next few days, I will also keep playing the Thiels with the Voyager. The AHB2’s are going back down to not reappear. I like the Voyager and the Thiel combo and love the CODA #8 and RAAL combo. Once the Voyager is broken in I am going to see about keeping it with the Thiel.
BTW - the biggest weakness in my system is my room and the RAAL does not have to deal with it. The RAAL is also very close to a 2 channel stereo sound, it does not sound like headphones. I put a few dollars into the RAAL system because it is incredible. |
yyz,
Your observations about the truthfulness of the Benchmark AHB2 are absolutely correct. I know the AHB2 sound, and of course I know the sound of classical music close up from the stage, 1st row and further back in the audience. This Mozart recording uses a very small chamber orchestra which has much less heft than other recordings of the same music which use a larger orchestra about 2x the size. If you heard this performance from the 1st row, the SPL would rarely be even 85 dB, and full orchestral sections would be about 75 dB average. The solo violin with very soft orchestral accompaniment would be 40-60 dB. The sniffs are about 20-25 dB. Even if the live sound is sharp, there is NO fatigue. Fatigue actually arises from playing a dull audio system too loud, in an effort to reveal detail. With an accurate, revealing system, satisfying detail is appreciated at much lower SPL's.
There are big romantic pieces like Brahms and Mahler symphonies which use very large orchestras of 100 players. Mahler's Symphony no. 8 is called "Symphony of a Thousand" because there are 1000 performers--a huge 150 member orchestra plus many different choral groups of adults and children. Whew--if you want heft, that's the piece for you, but Mahler symphonies are 80 min long. But this Mozart recording we like has little heft, and the performance and recording emphasize lightness, elegance and sharp quick instrumental attacks. So the AHB2 is the truth teller. BTW, what differences in tonality do you find between the AHB2 in stereo vs two monos?
I won't torture you to try to find the 2 or 3 moments of sniff on track 1. Tomorrow, I'll find the timings in the track so you can listen for them. I know the pieces backwards and forwards, but if you don't know them, it is harder to find the sniffs. |
Viber6,
Since you "know" the Benchmark sound......How does the bone stock $1800 IceEdge amp you have compare to the $3000 Benchmark amp? Of course, we know you have not heard the Benchmark in a long time.....just curious. |
@viber6 The AHB2 in stereo is not as loud as the mono. It is also supposed to be quieter, but I could not tell. The reason I got the mono for my Thiels, after a lot of research, including asking the designer, was because the stereo was missing that heft I look in some types of music. I listen to hard rock music occasionally, RUSH, Led Zep, AC/DC, Judas Priest, Moterhead, etc.. This type of music felt lacking with the single stereo. With the mono, the extra volume and additional power made that type of music better than the stereo version. The music that sounded great on the stereo also sounded great on the monos. The monos are worse in 2 Ohm range than the stereo. I used the monos for about a year.
When I got a KRELL K-300i integrated, a CODA CSiB, and a D-Sonic M3a 800s to try on the Thiel and RAAL. l I knew that the AHB2 mono were not giving me the 2 Ohm juice that these speakers needed.
The CODA #8 is the best I have heard the Thiels for all music. The KRELL was also excellent. The Voyager is today a keeper for me. I will get into that more in another post.
I solved the hiss issue and that lead me to upping my appreciation of the Voyager. I actually love the sound from the Voyager now with the changes I made. Next post will describe once I get some more work work completed. |
So this HISS is a feature of the CODA 07x (a joke) just like all other preamps I have heard, except the Benchmark HPA4. I wish I did not sell it since I could use it in tandem with the CODA 07x. I will post part of my email conversation with CODA because I do not want to retype the investigation I did. Hi,
Thanks for your suggestions. They were very helpful. I am not sure about your “short the inputs” but you gave me an idea on some tests.
1) I disconnected the amps from the preamp and hooked each of them to the speaker
a. Benchmark AHB2 had no noise
b. LSA Voyager 350 GAN has a bit of hiss
c. CODA #8 was a bit louder hiss than the Voyager
The great thing was that the buzz or crackling sound went away.
2) I hooked up my Gustard X26 Pro DAC to the Voyager amp direct and used the volume. It was noisy with hiss as expected and also no buzz or crackling. I expected the same result with the other 2 amps but did not try them.
3) I then hooked up the CODA 07x without any inputs hooked up and there was a bit more hiss with the Voyager but no buzz or the crackling sound. I expected the same result with the other 2 amps and did not try them.
4) I then added my 4 inputs to the CODA 07x, one at a time. The Gustard and the Sony SACD player added some noise but no buzz or crackling. The Benchmark DAC3B added a some noise and a bit of crackling. I did not really hear the buzz. Maybe that happens with playback. So I will ditch the DAC3B from the 07x and use it in another system
I can live with the slight hiss I have now since I cannot hear it from my siting position anymore. It is not dead silent as other people are saying. I think they really do not know what I mean by dead silent. No worries now. Things are working as expected.
Thanks for helping me solve this.
An additional observation I have an additional data point that you may find interesting. I also have a Topping D90SE DAC. It is very similar sonically to the Benchmark DAC3B. I use is in my other system. I brought it up to my CODA system after the last email and replaced the Benchmark DAC3B on the XLR 07x input. This DAC had the same amount of hiss and the same crackling sound. I then took out the Topping and put back the Benchmark DAC3B on the RCA input. It also has the same hiss and cracking sound. Luckily one of my DACs, the Gustard X26 Pro does not have the crackling sound.
With the DAC3B on the RCA2 input I checked the Gustard on XLR1, the Sony SACD player on XLR2, and my tuner on RCA1. They all had the crackling sound and hiss. When I removed the DAC3B from the 07x RCA2 input all the other inputs had the crackling sound go away, just a bit of hiss.
So unfortunately my needed DAC3B or Topping D90SE will not be used with the CODA 07x. I will improvise a solution with a optical splitter I have lying around. My Topping D90se and Benchmark DAC3B have nothing wrong with them. So only the Gustard with the CODA 07x. Now is when things get interesting for the Voyager. |
I am now dead set on using the CODA 07x and CODA #8 with the RAAL because it is superb and I spend a lot of late nights listening on the RAAL.
The Voyager now needs to step it up to work well with the Thiel. I was testing the Voyager with the Benchmark DAC3B because it is very neutral and does not seem to add anything to the signal. I wanted to just hear the amp. With the CODA 07x, DAC3B, and Voyager I thought the sound was good but could be better. Since the DAC3B was removed from the 07x due to the crackling and likely buzz issue I started using the colorful Gustard X26 Pro with the 07x and Voyager. Gustard is a warm DAC with detail and I believe a Class A output stage (whatever that means).
Now the sound was transformed. I was working on a deadline problem while my ROON server was feeding me a playlist of Classic rock that was appearing for some reason. I knew all the songs and they sounded great. My feet were moving, I was distracted, my work was stretching out longer (I missed the deadline). I just loved, loved this sound I was now hearing. There is one issue still. I feel the imaging on the amp is shifted slightly to the LEFT speaker. I think this is a amp break-in issue (must be 50+ hours now) and will settle to my normal imaging matching the AHB2 and CODA #8.
So happy with this amp now. Not so happy with the hiss, crackling, and buzz (could be a breakfast cereal). However, I am now only left with a bit of normal hiss and a missing DAC3B. Normal hiss for all preamps I know of except the Benchmark LA4 or HPA4.
I wish I had the Benchmark HPA4. still Though I sold the HPA4 for $250 less than I bought it after more than a year of use. I would not replace the 07x. That stays long term, likely forever, but I wound not mind having such a quiet preamp in the mix, especially to bring back the DAC3B. |
yyz,
On the Mozart recording, track 1, Concerto 3, at 0:08 there is a very soft slow sniff or possibly a mouth breath in. At 1:12 there is a louder but still soft sharper sniff. It is sharper and quicker, whereas at 0:08 it is even softer but more prolonged. The 1:12 sniff is repeated with the same musical passage at 4:35. All these sniffs are done after the orchestra stops, and then the sniff is done about 1/2 second before they start again, as a cue. It is only possible to hear these extremely soft sounds when the orchestra is completely silent. We cannot hear these subtle sounds of 20 dB if there is background playing at 40 dB or so. This reminds me of when I hear my car turn signals only when there is little road noise or I turn off the radio.
Let me know if you can hear these sniffs on your main Thiel speakers and RAAL headphones with the different amps. Don't cheat by playing things too loudly at 90 dB when the full orchestra portions should be about 75 dB. Headphones can seem only moderately loud at 100 dB whereas room speakers will sound very loud at 100 dB. |
ricevs,
When I trialed the Benchmark AHB2 for 1 month, it was quite close to my reference Bryston 2.5B SST2. At the end of the month break in, the AHB2 was slightly warmer than the Bryston. Only a guess--the AHB2 was on par with my current Mytek Brooklyn Amp (original version). My initial reaction to the Rouge was that it was rolled off in HF and fuller in overall sound than the Mytek. The Rouge still has some variation with the hour of the day, and I think it is evolving for the better. At 400 hours, I will reconnect my Mytek, re-break it in for a day, and then A/B the Rouge and Mytek. My Bryston is still king for crispness, although for larger scale music, I need more power, so I am hopeful about your modded Rouge. I will complete the 400 hours in about 2 weeks, so will contact you soon after that. |
Interesting.
FWIW I use a ARC sp16 tube preamp with Bel Canto ref1000m Class D amps. Had this for a good ten years now so yes it sounds very good. One thing is I never hear any hiss or noise except if the tube in the main phono tube slot is not up to snuff. The other slots are tolerant of less than too notch operating tubes but not the main. When ARC ships a set of tubes they always mark and designate the special one for that slot. Anyway my point is that hiss or noise need not be a factor surprisingly even when tubes are involved. Should not ever need be with premium quality/cost gear in good working order ever IMHO |
Back to the story of the Voyager. I will cut to the chase and say this amp is sounding mighty fine now.
I think it is at the same level of sound quality as the AHB2 and CODA #8. However, they do not sound the same. They all do their thing at a very high level of quality.
On the Thiel:
The AHB2 sounds just right to me, I wish it had more power for my Thiels. The CODA #8 is very pleasing, powerful, and detailed. The Voyager is the most exciting sound to me. It is an exciting, powerful, and detailed sound. I do not know why but with the Voyager I am tapping my toes and bobbing my head to almost everything (even the BEE GEES again this morning). I now love the sound from this amp.
The CODA #8 is closer to the Luxman m900u amp sound to me. The Voyager is a bit more AHB2-ish. These 3 are staying long term.
On the RAAL:
The AHB2 is super clean and an incredible window to the music. I need to use the Accurate Sound filter to make the AHB2 work with the RAAL. The CODA #8 is an all round great performer with the RAAL. I do not need the Accurate Sound filter for this but use it anyway because the filter improves the sound.
Last night I was listening to some Judas Priest with the CODA #8 and I had 0 fatigue and a great listen. Just love the CODA #8 with the RAAL. The Voyager was not at the level of the other 2 but I have not tried it with the Gustard X26 Pro DAC. I am not going to do that in the short term because I like what is going on now with the setup I have. I was apprehensive about using the CODA #8 with the RAAL due to cost, but what the heck, the sound is great. I will sell some gear to make me feel better about the costs.
@viber6 I will give the SNIFF test later today when I get a babysitter. My son is going crazy in the next room watching some fire engine videos.
@mapman the hiss is now no longer audible from my listening position, I need to get close to the speaker to hear it. With the Topping pre90 or Benchmark HPA4 connected to the AHB2 there is only silence, even with your ear right against the tweeter. |
I should add that for anyone considering getting the Voyager. My CODA 07x preamp does a great job of taming harshness. Not that the Voyager has any because when I added the Topping pre90 it did not seem to be harsh. Though the volume was messed up with that setup (too much gain).
In my setup, with the CODA 07x, I have no fatigue or harshness. I am easily susceptible to listener fatigue if the gear is harsh.
If I had the Benchmark HPA4 still in the house I could evaluate the Voyager in a more pure manner. |
Sounds like Voyager has made the grade and competes very well with other high quality amps that I have interest in. So it’s made my would strongly consider to buy list already at this point. Thanks for sharing the findings!
Next I would like to hear a comparison with the $800 mini GaN amp just to get a handle on how those two at significant different price points compare. |
@viber I have a lot on my plate now with work. However, I have the house to myself and tested out the SNIFF test at 0:08 of the first track. With the Gustard X26 Pro + Voyager + CODA 07x I could hear it. Now this is not my most revealing gear so if this combo can reproduce it all my other gear can too. The DAC3B and Topping D90se would easily let you hear it.
I will add the AHB2 replacing the Voyager to the mix later today or on the weekend because I am now curious how much more detail I can hear on this SNIFF test. |
Good. Try the other sniffs at 1:12 and 4:35, see how slightly different they are, and with various amps. It is good that you tried the less revealing components first. If you try the most revealing first, then you know what to look for so the less revealing components can be imagined to reveal the detail which would have been hidden if you tried them first.
Were these tests on the Thiel speakers or RAAL headphones? I still am not certain whether these soft sounds are sniffs through the nose or inhaled from the mouth. Probably the nose, because musicians like to use the HF sniff to draw attention. Instruments with more HF content cut through the mass of sound and stand out better with greater clarity. The nose is smaller diameter than the mouth, so the nose creates more HF than the mouth. My guess is that the AHB2 sounds more like the nose because of its brighter tonal balance toward HF, and the other extreme of the Coda is more like the mouth. |
I tested this once with the Thiel. The RAAL is even more revealing and will be a breeze to hear it.
I will be out for most of the day and likely tomorrow. However, I just figured out that if I add the RAAL SR1a amp interface box and even disconnect the headphones the amp will be sending a signal (or working). So now I will be able to play the Voyager 24 hours a day.
I figured this out because when I tried the amp interface box on the CODA #8 the power meters on the front are dancing even without the headphones connected. I do not want to burn the headphones with continuous playback. |
I bet the RAAL headphones are GREAT. They remind me of my AKG K1000 planar magnetic phones which I bought new for $1000 many years ago, and still have. They are like suspended speakers at a 1-2" distance from your ears. A unique feature of my AKG 1000 is that the ear speakers could be rotated to reduce bass. I have always hated most headphones for their overblown bass which diminishes midrange/HF clarity. I actually enjoy my Beyerdynamic DT880 phones better, a more conventional closed back phone. The 880 has a tasteful HF boost which enhances clarity. But the bass is too overblown, which I ameliorate by putting 1.5" measuring cups between my outer ear cartilage/head and the surrounding phone pads. Wearing this funny setup, I look like a woman wearing her helmet at the beauty parlor, lol. The cups fall off, so I just hold the phones about the same distance from my ears. I go for the most airy free air type sound which is with the greater distance and reduced bass. Of course, not too far away, which yields little bass.
My electrostatic Audiostatic 240 + Enigmacoustics Sopranino tweeter still kills any headphone or room speaker for exciting clarity at the price of reduced bass. |
I did the SNIFF test again with the RAAL SR1a, Gustard, and CODA #8. First of all it sounds amazing. I may not have the volume set at the same level as when I tested last time with the Voyager and Thiel. It may be actually a bit lower on the RAAL test. I could hear the 0:08 sniff much clearer. A little irritating to hear that sniff during the music. At 1:12 it was much louder and 4:35 was likely in-between the other 2 in terms of loudness.
So to be thorough I moved the amp interface box to the Voyager so I can test the same thing with the RAAL and Voyager. I put CODA #8 to STANDBY and left the CODA 07x preamp at the same volume level as before. Now I am not sure if the gain is the same on the Voyager. The volume from the Voyager seemed a little lower. The Gustard DAC is still used. It is the only DAC I can use with this delicate flower of a CODA 07x preamp without me getting annoyed by the crackling and buzz.
At 0:08 I do hear the sniff though it is not as prominent as with the CODA #8. At 1:12 it is not as loud as with the CODA #8. At 4:35 I could not hear it at this volume level.
So the facts to me seem that the CODA #8 is more detailed than the Voyager. The #8 is a pretty fine piece of work and cost 2x more than the Voyager. The fact that the CODA is also more warmer is an interesting attribute. Warmth and detail in the same box. The CODA #16 is supposed to be their best amp.
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The RAAL also has the wings that can be adjusted to increase or lower the bass. Sounds like they copied the
AKG K1000 you have.
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The CODA 07x preamp issue with my 2 neutral DACs has got me annoyed so I decided to split up my Benchmark AHB2 from my living room. I will move 1 to my office so that I can use the Topping pre90 with the Benchmark DAC3B and my Thiels. I have all the wiring in place to make this happen from when I owned the Benchmark HPA4 preamp. All I need to do would be to change the speaker wire from one amp to the other.
Sometimes I want a neutral sound over the juicy CODA sound. The pre90 | DAC3B | AHB2 | Thiel CS3.7 will be great with well recorded music. This will also be the king of details because the other gear is no where as quiet as this stack.
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I hope you disconnected the Coda from the preamp (removed the interconnect to the Coda AT the preamp) when you listened to the LSA. If you are driving two amps (or even just two interconnects) at the same time (even though only one is on) it will degrade the sound of the one you are listening to. |
Are you using the same speaker wires with both amps when using the Raal? If the wire is lower quality (less detailed) on the LSA then you may be listening to the difference in the cables. What connectors are on the ends of the cable you use with the LSA? If bananas.....then there is more degradation as bananas almost always sound worse than spades. Everything has to be done exactly the same when you A/B otherwise, you really cannot draw any valid conclusions.
Audience Conductor speaker wires were an entry line speaker cable when designed years and years ago. The Front Row Audience cables are the latest top of the line cables. The far more expensive Front row should be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more detailed and clear.
The Coda and the Benchmark amps have five way binding posts. You could use the Conductor cable on all three amps that way.....eliminating the difference in cables. |
In our lab tests we have found that heavy-duty 40-amp SpeakON™ connectors consistently outperform spade lugs, pins, and banana plugs. The SpeakON™ connectors provide a reliable low-impedance connection that can withstand high-currents. Of the more traditional speaker connectors, we have found that locking banana plugs provide the next best connections. In contrast, spade lugs and pins often provide poor connections. Spring-type (non-locking) banana plugs almost always provide poor connections and should be avoided. This is Benchmarks comments on speaker connectors. Which matches what @ricevs is stating. I do agree with @ricevs that the FrontRow is a much better cable. It also has SpeakON terminations. So that is why I was not able to use it with my Voyager. I spoke with CODA about having 2 amps hooked up to the CODA 07x preamp at the same time via XLR. They said that is fine as long as one amp is turned off. Nevertheless, to satisfy this audience I have removed 1 amp from the 07x preamp. I also took my 15 foot Benchmark XLR that was used between the Voyager and Coda 07x and reattached it from the CODA 07x to the CODA #8. So now this is apples-to-apples. In this scenario, the CODA #8 does not look good. It sounds great but the SNIFF test is a big lose. At 0:08 I cannot even hear it at louder volume than I previously tested. Now my house is a little loud with life but nothing to preclude me from hearing the music. At 1:12 I do hear the sniff and it is not as loud as with the Voyager. At 4:35 I cannot hear the sniff. My ears hurt now from how loud I had to play this to hear at least one sniff. I now re-tried the Voyager. The Voyager now has more than 80 hours and has been jamming in the back ground without my headphones connected. I do know that current is flowing out of the amp. In all 3 cases I was able to hear the sniff. It was not as good as with the FrontRow and other interconnects I was using but it was audile at LOWER volume with my ears hurting. So a big win for the Voyager. I like an idiot adjusted the volume next when I went to connect the Benchmark AHB2 stereo amp replacing the CODA. In this case, I am not able to hear the first 2 sniffs but the volume is different. So I would say that it was at best the same as the CODA maybe even as good as the Voyager if I had the same volume. When I get home from playing some squash I will test out the AHB2 driven by the Topping D90se DAC without any preamp. |
The sniffs are very, very low in level, so near the threshold of perception, if the volumes are not matched, on one amp at lower overall volume, the sniffs could disappear. Even on the most resolving AHB2, if it is lower in volume, this could happen. The best you can do is to listen on the RAAL at the same comfortable level, which will be within 1 dB. If the house is not absolutely quiet, since the RAAL is totally open to the environment, the sniffs could be lost, even if the overall music is not.
Despite all the problems of this demanding test, you got the relative volumes of the 3 sniffs correct, a tribute to your good ears on this unfamiliar music. I read some reviews of the RAAL. They are a true reference. Thanks for exposing me to the RAAL. One review said the HEDDphone was possibly superior in micro detail and was brighter in HF. The AHB2 will be shown in careful tests to be the most revealing on the RAAL, for esoteric sniff tests and for music, as you know.
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I am back home after getting my butt kicked all over the squash court and with cleared up ears.
I just played the CODA 07x + Gustard + Voyager + RAAL again at a not so loud level and heard all 3 sniffs. The house is a lot quieter now.
I then played the
CODA 07x + Gustard + AHB2+ RAAL at the same volume but low gain on the AHB2. Could not hear a the sniff. I then played the same but at high gain on the AHB2 with the CODA 07x volume unchanged. This time I heard the sniffs as easily as on the Voyager. I think the high gain on the AHB2 also matches better the volume when played with the Voyager. It was also NOT nosier at the higher gain. At least I could not hear any noise.
For some giggles I tried the Topping D90Se that is now directly connected to the AHB2. I used the same speaker wire and connected the RAAL. There was a sight difference in the chain though. The 15 foot Benchmark XLR I used was my second pair that had not been used for a month or 2. My Sonore OpticalRendu on the Topping D90se did not have the Audiophile Linear Power supply as the Gustard setup. The Gustard also had the more expensive WyWire USB from the OpticalRednu to the DAC. Remember I have 2 OpticalRendus.
Now that I think about it I should have just moved the USB from the Gustard to the Topping DAC. Anyways, I did not and the results were interesting. I was NOT able to hear the sniffs as easily as in the previous tests. I had to also increase the volume on the Topping DAC to hear the sniffs. I tried to estimate the volume to a similar level as the other tests with the COA 07x preamp. Maybe I did not waste my money buying the more expensive Audiophile LPS and the WyWire USB. WyWire are generally great wires.
I am listening to the Voyager on my RAAL with about 85 hours and while it is really good, better than my previous Class D RAAL amp. I am not feeling the same magic with the AHB2 and CODA #8. It sounds a little flat on the RAAL.
So to try something a little different with the RAAL and Voyager. I removed the ROON Convolution filter that was previously used with the AHB2 and CODA. It was essential with the AHB2. Without the filter the RAAL sounds much much better. I liked to try this again when I have 200 hours on the amp. A very promising result.
I am going to post this result on the Head-fi.com RAAL thread. This is a revelation.
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So, are you always listening to the LSA amp (speakers and headphones) using the Conductor cable.....and when always listening to the Benchmark and Coda amps you are always using the Front row Cable?!? If so, all your tests are invalid. You HAVE to do everything the same. How can you tell if the amp is more detailed or if it's the cable? You can only change one thing at a time to actually know anything. |
I have posted above that I am using the Conductor SE cable for the tests with the RAAL after you said the FrontRow was the differentiating factor. I am also using a single set of XLR's between the 07x and the amp being tested, that would be the Voyager, AHB2, and Coda #8
The Optical streaming was the same when I tested using the CODA 07x preamp. I also now only have 1 amp connected to the 07x preamp at any given time.
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APPLES-TO-APPLES COMPARISION
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1) MY FRONT ROW CABLE IS DISCONNECTED
2) I AM ONLY CHANGING 1 COMPOINENT, THE AMP
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I am not testing the Thiel because I do not want to move my amps around. The RAAL is more than enough to test for the sniff detail, likely the better option for this test.
In summary
The AHB2 at high gain and the Voyager were the same level of clarity on the SNIFF test. The high gain on the AHB2 sounded like the same volume level as the Voyager. I kept the CODA 07x preamp volume the same for both tests. The AHB2 has 3 gain settings, low, medium, high. I used the high setting after the low setting did not match the Voyager volume and also did not let me hear the sniff's.
The CODA #8 was not resolving the sniffs with the Conductor at a much higher CODA 07x volume level than the AHB2 and Voyager. The CODA comes in a distant 3rd.
So for the Voyager to be in the class of the AHB2 is pretty amazing.
Do not get me wrong on the CODA. It is a magnificent sounding stack and likely the preferred for most A'gon posters. The AHB2 is still the king for me, but the Voyager is really sounding good now.
The former, KING OF THE RAAL, will make an appearance today if FedEx can deliver. It is the KRELL K-300i integrated amp. I won't be able to do an APPLES-TO-APPLES comparison and will use the built-tin DAC on the K-300i. I will also use the Gustard with 15 foot Benchmark XLR to the KRELL. In both cases, this will be a disadvantage to the KRELL. |
Sorry, I did not see that you posted that you were using the Conductor for all tests with the RAAL......however, I just now looked quickly at your posts and did not see it mentioned. Glad you are just changing the amps and not the cable.
Sniff tests might be good for low level detail but we don’t listen to sniffs.....we listen to music. Sounds like the LSA is still a little bit "flat" on music? Will be interested in how much it improves with more burn in (probably not much) and of course, how much better it will be with mods.
Benchmark is a "testing for numbers" company. Their ranking of speaker connectors reflects their tests using resistance numbers....probably. I personally rank bananas as the worst sounding......the best is bare or tinned wire to wire (available only with my binding post bypass system).....then spade to bare wire.....then spade to super low mass binding posts (Furutech or WBT) and lastly bananas.....locking or not. I have never heard Speakons so cannot rank them......they are fairly low mass and simple....so they might be fine. |
The Voyager sounded flat with my RAAL but I had a Convolution filter running then. This filter is great with the AHB2 (actually required) and also good with the CODA. The Voyager was sounding flat with the filter. I turned off the filter and the sound took on more life and seemed comparable with the AHB2 and CODA with filter.
The AHB2 without the filter is fatiguing. The CODA does not need the filter but improves slight with it. I spoke with RAAL-Requites Danny on this filter for their headphone and he was very impressed by it.
I have the Voyager playing 24 hours a day and in 4 days I will be at 200 hours. I will do some listening with the Thiels then. Though I have always liked the Voyager with the Thiel, not so much with the RAAL, until now without the filter.
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How about one of the owners of the Voyager posts a pic in their virtual system? There is a "rendered" version on LSA's own site, but not the actual amp in real life.
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I got the KRELL K-300i back today and playing some of the same songs as with the other amps. My plans of selling this integrated are now halted. It sounds like the CODA #8 but a little smoother and more bass. I am going to keep the KRELL with my Thiels. I am using the Topping D90se DAC at the moment, this is a great DAC with the warm KRELL.
Is is better than the Voyager? It is not as fast sounding as the Voyager, less exciting, a much more relaxing sound, both have their place. That KRELL bass and smoothness is a winning combo. I have had the KRELL for about 10 months so it is nicely broken-in. |
@yyzsantabarbara so it sounds like it boils down to you have a lot of good sounding stuff to work with and each sounds a little different and some match up better than others so you are very blessed.
Lots of words and thinks on this sight dedicated to comparing gear and sighting how they sound different, you know this does this and that does that, etc. but it is all good and one need only choose whatever floats one’s boat at any particular time. Like choosing among fine wines or cigars, beautiful women, etc. |
You got that right. I have maybe 1 too many amps now. I also consider my RAAL the equal of my KEF LS50 and Thiel CS3.7. So I consider myself to have 3 systems.
I think there is a nice range of sound in the house, smooth, relaxing, fast, powerful, clear. None of the amps can do each of them but the 4 amps I have can collectively do all of them.
Definitely not buying any more gear. This was a 12 month buying spree after a very long time of holding off. |
From what I read about the Convolution filter on the RAAL, it softened the sound to that reviewer's liking. Too bad you find the AHB2 fatiguing without the Convo filter, but the AHB2 is more revealing and truthful without it. The trick to enjoy the most detail with no fatigue is to keep the SPL modest. You would have a different perspective if I visited and played my violin on these brilliant Mozart concertos at close range. The under-my-ear sound of myself and fellow musicians a few feet away is my reference, and not too far off what close mikes capture on good recordings such as this. Trying to get an audio system to approach this close reference, I have no tolerance for anything like the Convo filter that softens the sound. From what you have, I think your RAAL with AHB2 and without the Convo filter can best approach my reference. Great headphones like the RAAL give a very close, intimate sound similar to my close experiences, and make almost all speakers sound hopelessly dull and boring. |
The AHB2 is not bright. The RAAL is bright. The only person that liked the AHB2 with the RAAL is the designer in Serbia who used the AHB2 when creating the SR1a. His USA partner, who let me home demo the SR1a, told me the AHB2 was not good with the SR1a. I told him I had 2 of them and was intrigued by the designer using the AHB2. He was right.
I bought a tube DAC just for the AHB2 and while it did help the AHB2 was not tolerable with the RAAL SR1a. I get fatigued very easily. RAAL-Requisite is coming out with a tube headphone amp specifically for the SR1a. I have home demoed the RAAL-Requisite HSA-1b headphone amp for the SR1a and it was much better than the AHB2 'naked', as were a bunch of 2 channel stereo amps.
I believe you are in NY area. Next time there is a COVID free CanJam go and listen to the SR1a. They will have 3 stations where you are compare the SR1a on ROON with or without the Convolution filter, along with other attributes.
The designer of the Convolution filter, Mitch Barnett from Accurate Sound, does some genius level work. His writing on AudiophileStyle.com gave me confidence to use his services for my Thiel and then the SR1a. I also read his DSP book before I engaged in any of this.
BTW - I am loving the KRELL K-300i with the Topping D90se DAC. A warm amp with a neutral DAC. I am glad I decided to listen before I listed the KRELL for sale. I am going to do the SNIFF test on this, likely tomorrow. I expect it to fail like the CODA stack.
On Friday I will have 200 hours on the Voyager. It is playing on the CODA stack 24 hours a day now going into the RAAL amp interface box. The Voyager amp is nice and warm. |
I received UPS Tracking that my Voyager will be here Thursday, the 19th.
I noticed the Voyager product page shows a
$175
wire upgrade option. Having experience replacing crap jumper wiring on my Emerald Physics 3.4s, I image the wire upgrade will be highly revealing for potential Voyager buyers
hth
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I must say I doubt the Voyager will meet or surpass your EVS1200. Never know however. Really looking forward to your comparison comments. If you return the Voyager, then I think there is a 15% restocking fee? Correct?
I am confident Ric’s mods will improve the stock unit some 20 plus percent if you decide to keep it. |
Hi All,I just joined the group after reading this thread. I read a lot of good about the LSA Voyager amp being sold by Underwood Hifi. They also are offering a less expensive model called the Discovery Warp One. Are any of you familiar with this one yet? Would anyone be willing to look at the specs they give on the website ( https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/lsa-electronics) and comment on how this should perform compared to the Voyager? The Voyager is way out of my price range, but the Discovery Warp One is just right. I am considering it along with a Parasound 2250 v2. The system I will be paring it with is: digitally stored music sent through a Cambridge Audio DAC, then to an SAS Audio Labs tube preamp, the amp, and finally to Martin Logan ESL speakers with a Martin Logan subwoofer. I know this system is child’s play next to what you are all used to, but it is the best we can afford.Thank you! |
I'm not familiar with the Texas Instruments "Purepath" class D module, but it evidently isn't a GaNfet design, which seem to be producing the best sound these days. |
I have a Fosi Class D amp that uses a TI chip. It sounds very good. A bargain. |
Hi, been lurking for a while, and enjoying the posts....
The LSA Warp One uses the TPA3255 chip, with proper power supply can do 300wpc. But it also doesn’t measure quite as well as some of the other tech (especially Purifi and GaN).
I have enjoyed playing around with a lot of inexpensive amps using various chips. I have also owned Ric’s EVS1200 (and 4 other of his products), a few amps (DIY and one from VTV) using Purifi modules, as well as the Orchard Audio GaN mono’s and Stereo Ultra.
I WILL say that a cheap ($60 w/o brick PS) 3255-based ChiFi amp I got sounds quite nice for that cheap $; this and several others are indeed bargains, but would certainly be bettered by better implementations of likely better chips. None of the amps I have tried get to the level of the EVS1200, Purifi, or GaN amps I have or had. But they get a decent % for TINY money!
If what LSA does is greatly improve the pieces around the 3255 chip, then the Warp One may still be worth it. But I think it may be a bit too pricey, and my belief is that the Voyager will be better enough to warrant saving up for it. Or....look at some other slightly less expensive GaN options that Ric had mentioned previously (I am definitely a fan of Orchard products).
[EDIT: looked at some of the design notes and specs on LSA page, and it IS impressive. I still believe that the GaN will sound even better though]
To me: a well-modded Purifi-based amp, or well-implemented GaN-based amp, are the best I’ve heard. Makes me miss tubes and Class A not one bit. |
Forget the money--these are all decent amps for sensible money. Decide what kind of sound you want. I await tweak1's evaluation of the Voyager vs his EVS1200. My Rouge IceEdge 1200 AS1 amp at 260 hours is neutral, which is similar to the EVS1200 without the mods. I'll find out soon when I do the mods. The Voyager GaN is more tubelike, according to the people here. My experience with the Merrill Element 114 GaN is that it was tubelike. |
My CODA #8 and KRELL K-300i sound a bit more tube like to me than the Voyager. The Voyager so far sounds like it is in-between those 2 amps and the Benchmark AHB2. Detailed but not as smooth or soft. (not harsh either)
I will have 200 hours by Friday on the Voyager. Last night I did some headphone listening when I was tired and working my job. The music from the Voyager got my energy up big time and sounded great (sans Convolution filter). I do not know what it is but the Voyager energizes me way more than any other amp I have had. Maybe just imagining this energy but I do notice my toes tapping away more with the Voyager. |
My EVS1200 (sans Kubes) is chameleon-like in that it doesn't make poor recordings sound enjoyable, though it does make them sound "better" If that makes sense, though I don't doubt getting my roof siliconed has had a big impact on everything I play.
In case you missed it, last week I had my flat open beam ceiling roof siliconed to cut down on S Floridas penetrating heat. It really did the trick, but unbeknownst to me, an additional benefit is; the inside of my house is significantly quieter/immune from external noises from nearby interstate, trains, birds, and the morning frog serenade
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Post Note: All the CDs Im playing after silicone sound so much better- longer decays, more intimate, wider, deeper sound stage, drums/bass much more authority... meaning my room has taken a giant leap in quietness that forces me to release my recollection of pre silicone sound.
Fortunately, I've had a few days to get a handle on it before adding the Voyager, otherwise any comparison would have been invalid |
Silicone/silicon, tomato/potato, LOL.
Perhaps the ceiling/roof weighs more and is harder than before, which might tighten up the sound. Soft wood walls make the sound warmer and looser. |
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The Orchard stereo amp is currently 2.5K, preorder, and shipping September/October (heard that before?). But I think that pricemay eventually go up.
The Voyager is 3K and the Warp One currently 1K.
Someone needs to compare the Starkrimson Ultra with the Voyager, when the Ultra drops. |
FYI,
I am now modding all the amps in the world.....well, maybe not all. How about Premium Audio, Purifi (two more mods to try), IceEdge, LSA (both amps), Orchard Audio and Cherry amps. I’ve got you covered. No doubt will do the Wyred for Sound when it arrives. |
Well.... according to UPS, my GaN is out for delivery. Once it's warmed up, supposedly already broken in, I will start my own thread comparing/contrasting to my EVS 1200
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I have over 100 hours on the Voyager now. I started listening again this morning after I let it burn-in for a few days.
It does not have the big balls bass of the KRELL K-300i, that I have in the room, but the Voyager is sounding great in it's own way. A little sharper sound than the KRELL whereas the KRELL is little rounder. There is also more decay in Cymbals now with the Voyager. As I said before I feel the amp sounds fast to me. I am really engaged with this amp. There is a hint of hardness still on top that is not there with the AHB2, KRELL, or CODA #8. However, given the rate at which this amp is getting better with burn-in, that may go away or maybe with @ricevs mods.
Once I get the Voyager modded I should decide between the KRELL and Voyager. I could get better speaker cables if I sold off one of these units. |
