The only reason to not go active is irrational biases.

Or you have not found the pair that fits your listening space, needs or desires.

Another broad generalization Mike or Kenjit.

Look harder. I’m pondering over building active retrofit kits for existing passive speakers. Any passive speaker can be converted to active and achieve much higher performance. And the crossover can be adapted to the living space, as well as the listeners preference. Hard to do that with passive speakers without a soldering iron. 

No it will just add a bunch of noise and distortion.

This statement is false on two counts.

External crossovers don't contribute noise to any system nor do they add distortion. If either were to happen, it would point to a severe flaw in the amplifier driving the crossover.

Passive crossovers of themselves cannot cause noise or distortion. 

Why would I even look at all. Very content with my QLN Prestige 5's and Qualiton X200.

Another stupid response by Mike er Kenjit.

Me thinks you ponder a lot and achieve nothing.

Many people are content with mediocrity. I don’t share this viewpoint, so I don’t expect you to relate. 

This statement is false on two counts.

External crossovers don't contribute noise to any system nor do they add distortion. If either were to happen, it would point to a severe flaw in the amplifier driving the crossover.

Passive crossovers of themselves cannot cause noise or distortion. 
 

Well we will see next week. Do you own an audio analyzer?

Interesting thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44406-Influence-of-inductor-types-on-distortion-performance

and here

https://hificompass.com/en/projects/experiment/test-couple-iron-core-inductors

and here

@amplifierdude you are an arrogant asshat.

Oh poor baby did not like being called an arrogant azzhat.

Well here you go Mike.

I didn’t report it. I’m not a snowflake. 

Many people are content with mediocrity. I don’t share this viewpoint, so I don’t expect you to relate. 

No one could give a

Sure ....

"Well we will see next week. Do you own an audio analyzer?"

You really need to do some remedial research about who you are talking to or about. Meet Ralph or atmasphere.

Atmasphere

I know who Ralph is. That’s why I was asking about an audio analyzer. Surely he can’t be creating the next generation of giant killer class D amps without one. 

Well we will see next week. Do you own an audio analyzer?

Of course, but Its irrelevant.

Passive components downstream from the final output of an audio system cannot contribute noise or distortion, unless the use of timing constants to create cutoff frequencies is somehow considered distortion.

You have a 'proof' issue in that no image you can produce will be considered 'proof'. For that, you need to have an uninvolved party do the actual testing- someone who does not have a conflict of interest.

This is why I gave you that tip earlier- to continue down this path you risk eroding your credibility even further.

Here's another tip: When confronting something you disagree with on a forum site like this one, generally speaking you'll do much better if you apply this simple rule:

Attack the post, not the poster. (FWIW this is actually in the rules you agreed to when you signed up)

It does not matter if someone is personally attacking you. If you respond in kind, you get caught by the internet tar baby. No-one on the outside looking in will be able to tell who is right and they also will not care. If you want to erode good will and credibility, to be known as a troll, that is a very quick way to do it.

I was asking because if I conduct an experiment, and post my results, you can conduct the same experiment and see if your results are the same. If we both get the same results, then neither of us can argue the validity of the claim.

Which model of analyzer do you own?

Tube guys don't usually own things like bench distortion analyzers. Andy

Of course, but Its irrelevant.

Reading is fundamental.

@amplifierdude  looks like you got deleted...again.

So sorry it was actually taking a turn for the better.

Happy Thanksgiving.

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About time is done, as this has just been mud slinging and advertising thread for tweaking company. Andy 

About time is done, as this has just been mud slinging and advertising thread for tweaking company. Andy 

No Andy that is this thread dude.

Like I said reading is fundamental......

Whatever ….. fng.

testing 1-2-3

All passive and active circuits add distortion (whether they measure different or not). All passive xover parts add distortion (some of which can be measured). All brands of resistors, wires, capacitors, coiils and their implentation all change the sound. The ear can hear what is lower distortion. Those that listen to parts and execution absolutely know this. Most manufactures know this. This is why you see more expensive parts being used.....it is not just to "sell" you something....it is mostly because they have spent hours and hours trying to find the lowest distortion sounding parts to make the sound the best.

Active xovers also distort the sound. Everything distorts the sound. The less stuff you have in the signal path.....the better. Sinlgle driver systems with augmented super tweeter and woofers are the real deal. When you hear a great sounding amp drving a great driver with no xover whatsoever......OH MY!

However a simple two pole line level passive xover right before an amp can blow your mind, as well. So, if you bi-amp that way.....the results are super. Then you can add a transistor amp with its own processor to do bass extension. Many ways up the low distortion ladder.

Happy Thanksgiving!  We are all so blessed.  Pease share with everyone.

The ear can hear what is lower distortion. Those that listen to parts and execution absolutely know this. Most manufactures know this. This is why you see more expensive parts being used.....it is not just to "sell" you something....it is mostly because they have spent hours and hours trying to find the lowest distortion sounding parts to make the sound the best.
 

It has been widely proven in scientific studies that certain types of "euphonic" distortion are actually preferable by many over a lack of such distortion. The fact that many people prefer certain tube amps with much higher distortion levels than other available amps proves your thesis that "they have spent hours and hours trying to find the lowest distortion sounding parts to make the sound the best" is wrong.

By your logic, the amp with the lowest distortion sounds the best. Halcro tried that. It didn't work. It is much more complicated than "the amp with the lowest distortion" sounds "best".

Once distortion levels are below audibility, it doesn't much matter in any case.

This amp has rising distortion with load impedance, much like other class d amps which do not have the output filter inside the feedback loop. It makes their frequency response load dependent. This is yesterday's class d amp. Smart designers like Bruno Putzeys have the output filter within the feedback loop to create a flat response with load impedance and reduce distortion below audible levels.

+1

Which model of analyzer do you own?

Hp 8903B Old but it does the job.

Clearly some 'tube guys' do have analyzers on hand...

I never said the amp with the lowest MEASURED distortion is the best (Halcro or whatever). What I am saying is that the amp with the lowest SONIC distortion is the best. And of course, we could argue all day about what is distortion and what is real. The ear knows best. The measured distortion of an amp is only a measurement of about one one hundreth of its sonic distortion (yes, it is important but without the other 99+ things you can do you are just scratching the surface of true transparency). You could take the same design by the same engineer that measures incredibly low distortion on some meter and give that circuit to 100 different people to implement it as an amp.........Since there are so many variables that change the sound.....you would end up with 100 amps that all sound different from each other. I have taken Bruno’s basic amp design’s and made them better sounding by changing and eliminating certain parts. These changes cannot be measured. You just change the AC inlet on an amp to a better one and you have better sound. This game is infinite!

There is no such thing as "distortion below audibility". What we hear is WAY way more than what we can measure. You can just damp the heatsink of an amp and you will hear lower the sonic distortion.....no measurement difference. You can remove the steel plate and bolt from a toroid power transformer and mount it off the chassis on some wood and you will hear a more open sound.....again, no difference in distortion measurements, but way lower sonic distortion. This game is not simple. If you think it is that simple then why would you post on a forum where most everyone listens to things to determine what they like, want, and what they think is lowest distortion? Why are you an audiophile if you believe that all you need is numbers? Just buy a 1977 Sansui Receiver and a pair of Advents and be done with it.

I never said the amp with the lowest MEASURED distortion is the best (Halcro or whatever). What I am saying is that the amp with the lowest SONIC distortion is the best.

The distortion signature of any amplifier is the 'sonic signature' to which people often refer. Since you can't get rid of it, it needs to be correct. FWIW this is why tubes are still being made.

"sonic distortion"

? New snake oil term?

"The measured distortion of an amp is only a measurement of about one one hundreth of its sonic distortion"

Any published evidence or more snake oil unproven claims?

"I made Bruno Putzey’s amp better"

Yeah, sure you did. If you knew 1/100 of what Bruno knows about amps you would be designing and selling your own instead of fabricating bs and leaching off the success of real audio designers and experts.

"There is no such thing as "distortion below audibility"

Really? So distortion components 200db down from the signal are audible? Yeah, right.


LMAO, what a joke. And people actually pay you money for this nonsense? Nice try Mr. Snake Oil but you are full of it.

You could have measured distortion of 3 billion db down and still the amp would only sound as good as the execution and parts (the tons of things that cannot be measured yet make a serious difference in sound).  You have your 5% people like Kuribo that think everything we hear can be measured.  And you have the rest of us that believe our ears.  Good luck trying to convince anyone you are correct.....except for the other guys here who think like you......a very, very small minority....with big big mouths.....he he.

Thank you for your opinion.  I honor your soul and I know you are beautiful.  You are worthy.....we are all worthy.

You deny basic physics, invent "facts" which have no basis in reality, and keep preaching your faith based audio religion for profit. You are a scammer and should be banned.

Hmmm another troll rears it’s ugly antagonistic personality.

Member of the Facebook Audiophile Haters Club?

Or just friends with @andypandy ​​​​@amplifierdude ?

take a pill dude or you will get run off. Been a member since 2000 and only made 122 posts?

Smell like Bill Goat Gruff.

Another disciple of the fantasy audio religion?

I am aware that some of you complained about not enough bass. Don't know if they simply used the stock soft rubber feet, which IMO sucked a lot of life out of it: well I just uncovered it, taking my Voyager to a much higher level of enjoyment by simply replacing my 6 yo old+ Machina Dynamica springs under everything prior to buying the Nobs @~ $8/4, which have 7 springs in each. And they definitely improved the sound, but I started watching this thread: 

 Nobsound springs - load range, which is very informative about the amount of weight each spring is designed to handle.  Well, late yesterday I started pulling springs out, starting with 3 springs/3 Nobs under my Oppo 105 first (decent improvement). Today I got busy, starting with my LSA Voyager GaN 350 amp (OMG!), then my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 (here I only used 2 each X 3). This leaves my Core Power 1800 PLC, which currently has 4 Machina Dynamica springs, and eventually my EP 3.4 OB speakers, a 2 person job as they are currently on Harbor Freight dollies.

I am totally amazed. I now have authoritative bass- mid bass, which gives the music significantly more drive, putting a big smile on my face listening to Lyle Lovett The Road to Ensenada CD. One of my torture test CDs is Jennifer Nettles Playing With Fire. It's on as I write this. Where many of the songs sounded thin, so far it sounds natural, like she's in the room.

hth

I bought one Voyager GAN 350 on Nov 19,  but I listened the sound was disssapointed, I told Walter what I heard , but he just told it need burn in 200 Hrs.

I cannot accept the answer,    So I had do 9 days efforts to rebuild my Voyager GAN 350, improve its power wire, speaker wire, and got a dreamming Voyager GAN 350, not muffled again, it became bright, transparent, ......., more better than "Walter tweaked LSA Voyager", and not to burn in 200 Hrs, I think My adjustment was state of the art,  and no other voyager GAN 350 will be better than my owned "Voyager". 

It was refresing to see tweak1 post yesterday talking about his first hand experience with this amp. For a minute I was excited to see a 2nd post along the lines, but after reading it I checked it is the first post the user has made on a'gon...I guess here we go again...

FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know.

"FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know."👍

That's what I noted a couple of pages back.  It's never a good thing when someone has little or no knowledge about something but thinks they do.  There's no sense in getting into that debate. 

In addition, many moons ago, I had a Proceed AVP (when the model was current in my system).  It was easy to hook multiple digital cables from my Proceed PMDT.  I had someone hook them behind the system and didn't know the inputs used and they were also swapped periodically.  I had no knowledge of what particular cables were in what input and the person swapping had no knowledge of what I was selecting via the remote control.  I was always curious of how measurement/engineering types view digital cables.  I had a couple explaining to me that there were ones and zeroes traveling down the cable (I did my best not to laugh).  Anyway, I had a few of those over and we did listening and I asked them to pick which sounded better.  They all picked the same one and then when we compared notes between myself and the person swapping cables on paricular listening session numbers, they all wanted to dissect the preamp as there had to be hardware differences.  When I pointed out that the results already eliminated that possibility, they wouldn't accept the truth as to what they heard (I guess it was a conspiracy to them).  Moral of the story, even hearing differences, they wouldn't accept them.  So why would one argue with someone who hasn't heard something or compared it to something else?  Let alone, for the most part the facts they are basing a conclusion on are from a source of little to no value related to audio (it's pretty much like the story I got above that ones and zeroes were floating across the cable).

I also noted go start a thread on why a particular amp sucks and enjoy. I actually feel bad for them as it's kind of like the story of the emperor's new clothes.

What is the compliance of your springs? What frequency range are you attempting to attenuate? Are you overdamped? Underdamped? Critically damped? Do you know anything about damping harmonic motion? "it sounds better" is not evidence that you have done anything meaningful to reduce the vibrations in your components- heard of confirmation bias? It's how all these nut job tweaks and tweakers make a living fleecing people.

LOL---Machina Dynamica--

"Posted by geoffkait (M) on January 23, 2013 at 14:20:08
Machina Dynamica.
Obtain a roll of adhesive-backed copper tape, width 1/2 inch. It can be either conductive or non-conductive adhesive. Adhesive-backed copper tape is available at Amazon and eBay, Radio Shack might carry it, who knows. Cut the copper tape into 1" x 1/2" rectangles - one rectangle for every window pane or glass door in the house or apartment. Attach one copper rectangle to each glass window and glass door. The copper rectangle can be placed anywhere on the glass, upper corner or otherwise out of view is OK. Be sure and attach a copper rectangle to glass in all rooms of the house or apt."

This is the level of sophistication we are at with these tweakie scammers....

FWIW some of us are interested in actual listening experience, and especially when people mention how it sounds vs other amps they know.

Due to the variability of this amp’s frequency response with load, unless two people are using the same speakers, any listening impressions, putting aside subjective differences in taste, will be meaningless as the amp will be performing differently with different speakers. Thus, trying to draw any conclusions of this amp’s performance, objective or subjective, from other user’s experiences, is fundamentally futile. As is sharing one’s super tweaks- due to load dependency, they won’t translate.

This is yesterday’s tech. If you want a state of the art class d amp, you need to look elsewhere.

Pity they're out of stock till after Xmas.  https://orchardaudio.com/shop/ols/products/strkrmsn-str-ltr

Much better amp than the LSA.

This is all nonsense.......ramblings from someone who has never listened to this amp. The measurements are not proof that this amp will sound different with a 4 ohm or 8 ohm speaker. Please show me the double blind listening tests that prove that. This is all conjecture from someone who believes that measurements rule and that listening tests are not needed to "know" how something sounds. Does not matter how much spin you put on this.....this is just your belief system. And this belief system is believed by very very few people who read this thread.....and the people who believe their ears and not some words from someone who does not listen will NEVER believe your belief system......and that is because they have direct experience that tells them the opposite......that cables, tweaks, fuses, footers, cables off the floor, etc. all have a different sound and that most of these things CANNOT be measured.

I have never heard of a person who believes that cables sound different....eventually "evolving"????? ...he he... to a place where they now believe all cables sound the same. NEVER will happen. Once you hear cables make a difference you cannot go back. However, lots of people who did not believe cables sound different have become "converts".....once they actually listened with an open mind and heart.

Why don’t you go onto Jay’s thread?......and tell them that his latest $10K cables are all snake oil and that cables all sound the same?......and that the Synergistic fuses he heard are all snake oil.....and that his $5K speakers stands are all snake oil.....and that the footers he heard (and that he did not like)...are all snake oil (because you cannot hear a footer under a 100lb. amp sitting on a $5K stand). , and that more perfect measuring and cheaper gear are more accurate, etc..

The reason you will not go there is that they would laugh you right off....you would feel so low you would never come back. On these cheapo threads you feel less threatened and have your buddies to do the +1 thing. The bottom line is that what you say is just your opinion. Of course, this applies to all, including what I just said. It is just that my basic opinion.(that a lot of things in audio that make the sound better cannot be measured) is shared by most everyone here........and practically no one on ASR. Such is life. Life is beautiful.....and your stereo can be made to sound more beautiful by playing with infinite things. Its fun!

Have fun......we don’t need to be so serious. No one is getting hurt by buying this really good sounding amp or having mods done to it or whatever. Chill and bliss out......it is good for you.

So, you have sonically A/Bed the Orchard and the LSA in your system using the same cords, etc.....both burned in and you think one sounds better? Or are we still talking numbers and no listening tests to back up the numbers game?

I have some Orchard monos here right now that I am modding. I will hear how they sound for myself. No one can tell me what is best.....I will know for myself. Trust your ears.....do not trust words from me or anyone else. Trust yourself....you know what you want and what you like. The truth....is what you experience.....not what you are told.

Pre, versus post filter, feedback in class d amps is a known source of variable frequency dependency and a second class technology. Of course it is audible- remember the words of the guru: "everything is audible". Frequency response should be independent of load and all the better state of the art implementation use post filter feedback- Orchard, Icepower, Hypex, Purifi. Do a little reading and educate yourselves to the advantages. Any amp that sounds different with different speakers is not something any serious audio person would consider state of the art simply because of GaN. It's like putting new Michelins on a Model A and calling it state of the art.

 

@kuribo please enlighten us ignorant sods. Please explain the dynamics of harmonic suspension tuning.

 

Try Google. I don't have time to post a semester long class in dynamic systems. The point is you have no clue what you are doing and if it is genuinely affecting your system or all in your head.

So you are a freaking troll from that Facebook Hate Group.

Great comeback. It fails to address the issue at hand though, which is your ignorance of dynamic systems. It also has nothing to do with this LSA amp and it's poor implementation of the GaN tech.

Great comeback. It fails to address the issue at hand though, which is your ignorance of dynamic systems. It also has nothing to do with this LSA amp and it's poor implementation of the GaN tech.

But it does reveal a big of a raging putz you are.

And the fact that you do not deny it.

Have a nice evening Troll. So are you amplifierdude or andypandy or geoffkit.

I also never said I was using springs or was an LSA owner. I was pointing out that you are here just make pollution. Not actually post anything of value.

You will be banned shortly.